job balancing discussion (1.22a-hotfix)

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

Part of the problem may simply be so few jobs?
One Healer (WHM)
Two Tanks (WAR/PLD) (no giggling at PLD tank)
One Magic DD (BLM)
One Range DD (BRD)
Two Melee DD (MNK, DRG)

If the target is weak to magic: One choice -- BLM
If the target is too dangerous to be near: Two Choices -- BLM/BRD
If the target is weak to melee: Two choices -- MNK/DRG

Given that a lot of enemies are just too dangerous to get near, but easy to take out from afar, is it no surprise that BLM/BRD is nice to stack?

That being said, what if we had a variety of different jobs that filled the role of 'Ranged DD':
BLM, SMN, BRD, RNG, COR, SCH, RDM

There would be less job stacking... because the issue not really is the desire to stack a job.. but rather, the desire to stack a role. The primary roles being: Tank, Healer, Melee DD, Ranged DD, Support

If we had 5 jobs for each of those roles, I feel stacking would be gone.

(And if those jobs could co-ordinate together for bonuses, such as in Weapon Skill Chains, then there would be more interest in non-stacking).

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You listed Red Mage as if it were a ranged DD.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

You know how clueless you sounds right now? the only AoE's that will hit melee at Chimera is Voice of Ram and it does 1.7k-2k at most, easily avoidable because of the casting time. The other AoE is Poison Sting, very deadly and fast cast, but if you incapacitate the chimera's tail, it will stop using Poison Sting and it suddenly become a very melee friendly fight.

Every fight so far since CC/AV to Garuda is very melee friendly, i am not even sure u have tried to attempt meleeing Chimera properly, by properly i mean not mindlessly punching but playing cautiously making sure skills doesn't get you while attempting to incapacitate its tail.

I am sure we all are after the same thing here, but it's hard to agree with someone that doesn't even deliver the correct information.

and most of the suggestions is very biased to the jobs they wanted to play, nerf the one they hated, So no there aren't really any properly written suggestions. I would love being proved wrong though.

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I have done Chimera enough to know how he works, and I know it kills players not in the right spot, that stacked with the poison also. If you are such an expert as you say you are, you would know even if that AoE doesn't kill the melees, you still have the WHM's not only having to keep up with them, but also watch hate on Chimera, which is a very delicate thing and most people don't want to deal with that. Not to mention I have been in a run with WAR/MNK replacing all the BLM's, did the run a few times and not once did his tail break off after using the correct abilities several times, the tail does not just come off. It is inconvenient and adds a huge risk factor to your party's speed run bringing in melee.

Is it possible with a diverse setup? Yes. Do people want to deal with this obscure obstacle if they don't have to? No. Congrats to you if your LS does it this way, but it is only ignorant on your end if you believe Chimera is a balanced fight. I don't think you can actually call an entire community out for using a cookie cutter setup. It is simply that they know better that the fight isn't melee friendly. Rather you can accomplish it or not, it is not balanced fight.

EDIT: Since you don't think it is a good idea, doesn't mean it is a bad one, you just don't like it simply. I love to play as all jobs and always go as what is needed, and I really love the BLM job, but I know that it's AoE needs to be toned down. Rather you agree or not is your own opinion, but that is how I stand on it.

Garuda is also melee friendly because it is forced. I rather be influenced to have a diverse setup, not one forced upon me. It pretty much says that SE can't balance boss fights, so they need to make forceful conditions to make players invite different jobs. Know the reason other MMO's are more successful in class balancing? Because the conditions for everyone is the same and each class brings something to the table that others can't give. So IMO people want diverse parties.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Insane DPS is not your duty as BRD and it never will be.

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I never said it is. I said their DPS is not important/useful enough, which means the nerf is unnecessary.

I'm NOT saying the bard SHOULD be doing DPS, they DON'T which is why the nerf is a tad unneccessary. I think I phrased it properly this time. Please ask me again if I didn't.

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Originally Posted by Colino

I never said it is. I said their DPS is not important/useful enough, which means the nerf is unnecessary.

I'm NOT saying the bard SHOULD be doing DPS, they DON'T which is why the nerf is a tad unneccessary. I think I phrased it properly this time. Please ask me again if I didn't.

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I don't see the problem then. They got a small nerf in an area in which they are not meant to be strong in the first place which doesn't reduce their usefulness at all. ARC is DD, BRD is a support role.

PLD should have a superior HP pool to WAR, I'm not sure why it was deemed that PLD needs less HP. Right now I still see a 400HP base difference then WAR. Also as stated the massive enmity from wardrum is broken.

One thing that I could see as a real fix and give PLD its tanking prowess is a buff to Sentinel to increase enmity on ALL actions similar to how Antagonize works for WAR. Right now Sentinel seems to increase enmity of ws's by about 100 but does nothing for voke/flash/rampart etc. If PLD got a sentinel increase II that gave increased enmity for all actions by 100 not just ws's I think that would help level the enmity generation playing field which is the only thing I care about for tanking purposes. Every encounter is easy once you learn the mechanics so if your going to take a PLD over a WAR and loose some DPS from the tank then it needs to make up for that with a higher hate ceiling.

I want to put my 181 enmity set to use on PLD not just WAR burning. I think PLD is a fun job and the skill ceiling to play optimally is much higher then facerolling on WAR but your just not fully rewarded for the effort and that is my problem.

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Originally Posted by Tango

PLD should have a superior HP pool to WAR, I'm not sure why it was deemed that PLD needs less HP. Right now I still see a 400HP base difference then WAR. Also as stated the massive enmity from wardrum is broken.

One thing that I could see as a real fix and give PLD its tanking prowess is a buff to Sentinel to increase enmity on ALL actions similar to how Antagonize works for WAR. Right now Sentinel seems to increase enmity of ws's by about 100 but does nothing for voke/flash/rampart etc. If PLD got a sentinel increase II that gave increased enmity for all actions by 100 not just ws's I think that would help level the enmity generation playing field which is the only thing I care about for tanking purposes. Every encounter is easy once you learn the mechanics so if your going to take a PLD over a WAR and loose some DPS from the tank then it needs to make up for that with a higher hate ceiling.

I want to put my 181 enmity set to use on PLD not just WAR burning. I think PLD is a fun job and the skill ceiling to play optimally is much higher then facerolling on WAR but your just not fully rewarded for the effort and that is my problem.

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Or you know, just give them a universal damage mitigation job trait.

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Originally Posted by Tango

PLD should have a superior HP pool to WAR, I'm not sure why it was deemed that PLD needs less HP. Right now I still see a 400HP base difference then WAR. Also as stated the massive enmity from wardrum is broken.

One thing that I could see as a real fix and give PLD its tanking prowess is a buff to Sentinel to increase enmity on ALL actions similar to how Antagonize works for WAR. Right now Sentinel seems to increase enmity of ws's by about 100 but does nothing for voke/flash/rampart etc. If PLD got a sentinel increase II that gave increased enmity for all actions by 100 not just ws's I think that would help level the enmity generation playing field which is the only thing I care about for tanking purposes. Every encounter is easy once you learn the mechanics so if your going to take a PLD over a WAR and loose some DPS from the tank then it needs to make up for that with a higher hate ceiling.

I want to put my 181 enmity set to use on PLD not just WAR burning. I think PLD is a fun job and the skill ceiling to play optimally is much higher then facerolling on WAR but your just not fully rewarded for the effort and that is my problem.

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In my experience, PLD does hold hate better than WAR. It's not a huge increase, but is noticeable. It also seems to build hate faster at the start of a fight. Whether that's enough to go with PLD and it's lower dps and hp over WAR is another story though.

I think above nerfs for WAR what would make PLD a better tank would be making PLD a better tank, instead of nerfing WAR.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

I don't see the problem then. They got a small nerf in an area in which they are not meant to be strong in the first place which doesn't reduce their usefulness at all. ARC is DD, BRD is a support role.

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The problem is why bother nerfing it at all? They already shoehorned ARC's into being a support role when people levelled it to be a DD. And now they are taking away more of its DD'ing capabilities. If everybody just shrugs their shoulders and says nothing then it's probably more likely to happen again in future.

And yes it will come across as whiny and butthurt from a lot of ARC/BRD's. However, I'm willing to wager that if another job had its fundamental role completely changed and then had its original role stripped away from it, that class would QQ just the same. Obviously that did not all happen last night, it was just a continuation.

And like you said BRD is support, ARC is a DD. Did ARC as a DD need a nerf because it was overpowered? No, it did not. It was bottom/lower tier before yesterdays update and now it is even worse off as it got nerfed whilst other DD jobs got buffs. If they had made it only applicable to BRD or given some ARC exclusive ability to make up for it then fair enough but they didn't. It was a flat out nerf.

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Originally Posted by Kaith

The problem is why bother nerfing it at all? They already shoehorned ARC's into being a support role when people levelled it to be a DD. And now they are taking away more of its DD'ing capabilities. If everybody just shrugs their shoulders and says nothing then it's probably more likely to happen again in future.

And yes it will come across as whiny and butthurt from a lot of ARC/BRD's. However, I'm willing to wager that if another job had its fundamental role completely changed and then had its original role stripped away from it, that class would QQ just the same. Obviously that did not all happen last night, it was just a continuation.

And like you said BRD is support, ARC is a DD. Did ARC as a DD need a nerf because it was overpowered? No, it did not. It was bottom/lower tier before yesterdays update and now it is even worse off as it got nerfed whilst other DD jobs got buffs. If they had made it only applicable to BRD or given some ARC exclusive ability to make up for it then fair enough but they didn't. It was a flat out nerf.

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Every class/job got some sort of adjustment. That's what happens when things get balanced properly. Cry me a river.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

In my experience, PLD does hold hate better than WAR. It's not a huge increase, but is noticeable. It also seems to build hate faster at the start of a fight. Whether that's enough to go with PLD and it's lower dps and hp over WAR is another story though.

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From a paper and pencil standpoint the WAR dominates PLD for hate generation, they each have access to the same skills and the WAR does a large amount more DPS, if you stack madening pots with antagonize and collusion+resonance pulling you can open a fight with WAYWAYWAY more enmity then PLD. The only way PLD keeps up with WAR is through healing others which is just not needed in almost any of the fights we have so far.

Antagonize with AF head is a 1.65 multiplier of enmity, so the voke/flash/rampart are doing 165%enmity vs the PLD counterpart

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Originally Posted by Req

Or you know, just give them a universal damage mitigation job trait.

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Who cares about dmg mitigation if your goal is speed of kill and efficiency. There was a point when I was using CON as main tank on ifrit and a year ago I was tanking with THM. Even if PLD got a 20% dmg mitigation trait it doesn't help you kill faster and thats the only thing that that should mater to an elite group. And unfortunately the elite groups that post up early strategies are the ones who the masses tend to emulate.

Unless you can completely remove WHM from a group (since currently you can 1 whm every fight/instance in game already) the dmg mitigation is moot

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Every class/job got some sort of adjustment. That's what happens when things get balanced properly. Cry me a river.

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None of them had their fundamental role changed as much as ARC did. Yes ARC was overpowered in the past but it certainly isn't now and didn't need a nerf yesterday.

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Originally Posted by Tango

Who cares about dmg mitigation if your goal is speed of kill and efficiency. There was a point when I was using CON as main tank on ifrit and a year ago I was tanking with THM. Even if PLD got a 20% dmg mitigation trait it doesn't help you kill faster and thats the only thing that that should mater to an elite group. And unfortunately the elite groups that post up early strategies are the ones who the masses tend to emulate.

Unless you can completely remove WHM from a group (since currently you can 1 whm every fight/instance in game already) the dmg mitigation is moot

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Ya I've mentioned it on the other topic more centered towards PLD but it seems like the most simple thing they could do for PLD is add "Chance at Defense down" for "Enhanced Flash II". So along with gaining the AOE effect with flash at that level they could also grant the opportunity for all/some mobs to have their defense lowered allowing DD to have an easier time to kill adds.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Ya I've mentioned it on the other topic more centered towards PLD but it seems like the most simple thing they could do for PLD is add "Chance at Defense down" for "Enhanced Flash II". So along with gaining the AOE effect with flash at that level they could also grant the opportunity for all/some mobs to have their defense lowered allowing DD to have an easier time to kill adds.

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I've read your suggestions before and I agree, a flash defense down would be really nice even if its 10% defense down for 10 seconds that would be just about enough to get my group of ppl to consider PLD.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

PS: As far as the mentioning of how long it takes, the deciding factor should be how your DPSers perform. The tank should not be a factor in that equation at all. It shouldn't matter if the tank is a WAR or PLD or SAM or BST or whatever; the result should be the same. If a run takes longer with a PLD and shorter with a WAR, then there's a balance problem and in needs to be resolved.

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If paladin must put up with lesser damage in compairison to warrior (which I respect and prefer --> I love surivial & utility). Their lack of enmity from lesser damage abilities should be compensated with enough pure enmity generation for surrounding DPS to increase their single target/AoE damage. If surrounding party members can more safily pump out greater damage with a PLD in the group, then this would be a non-issue.


The greatest example is compairing FFXIV to EQII's paladin; they are VERY similar. Both use seemingly amazing AoE protective buffs, provide block buffs galore, use cure/heal as a means to hold hate, and use almost pure emity (little damage) generating abilities, AoE's, and buffs to hold hate. The only difference between these two PLD's (other than move names and EQII having WAY more moves since it's an OLD developed MMO and FFXIV's PLD being more involving --> YAY) is that FFXIV's PLD is not receiving enough of the pure emity gain abilities (or these abilities are currently lackluster). SE decided to provide the emity generation and transfer buffs to the Warrior, a class so well developed in AoE and monsterous single target damage that they hardly need all these hate generating buffs to hold hate.

I'm not asking SE to strip warrior of all these abilities; however, PLD's current Emity generating abiliites require re-evaulation for their effectiveness at (mainly) holding AoE enmity.

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Originally Posted by Kaith

None of them had their fundamental role changed as much as ARC did. Yes ARC was overpowered in the past but it certainly isn't now and didn't need a nerf yesterday.

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LOL, whining about an ARC nerf. Unless you're soloing, why would you play ARC when you can play BLM or BRD instead? In the case that you are soloing, again, why arc? There are much better choices to solo. Now I feel you're whining just to whine about something. ARCs role went from ranged DD to slightly lower DPS ranged DD. Is that a fundamental change? I think not.

Lets be honest, the only reason to level ARC is to unlock BRD in terms of end game. If I'm forming a group, and you said you wanted to play ARC when we need ranged DD, I'd boot you for somebody who would play BLM. If we needed a BRD and you went ARC, I'd boot you for someone who'd play BRD.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Ya I've mentioned it on the other topic more centered towards PLD but it seems like the most simple thing they could do for PLD is add "Chance at Defense down" for "Enhanced Flash II". So along with gaining the AOE effect with flash at that level they could also grant the opportunity for all/some mobs to have their defense lowered allowing DD to have an easier time to kill adds.

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Like Dia!

10char

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Originally Posted by Raikki

...drop rates are abysmal and content has to be cleared hundreds of times. You'd have to be a fool to deliberately make those hundreds of clears take longer than necessary by needlessly using an inferior group composition.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

...class stacking is very much SE's fault, between class/job design, ability and damage spread between jobs, and encounter design and balancing (or lack thereof).

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Originally Posted by DarkB

...class stacking is SE's fault because they seem to not play the game and just listen to people in forums. You do things with your friends for fun the first times, and that's fine, but after a bit when you see that going with 6 blms 1 war 1 whm is faster than going with other jobs, why on earth would you frustrate yourself, waste time, risk to lose, going with another setup?
Makes no sense.

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I read this and I think: if the game developers are truly responsible for us - the players - stacking classes and jobs, the solution should be to limit the number of jobs/classes in a full party.

One example could be incentivising balanced party setups. If the system detects a qualifying setup, it could enhance or increase battle rewards regardless of the time taken to complete it. However, it would be up to the game developers to set and recognize those parameters.

I feel I am inclined to agree with Chardrizard. Accomplishing and achieving difficult content should be a fun task. Efficiency is a choice. Steps can be taken to promote balanced setups (or so-called "inferior setups") rather than efficient ones. But it shouldn't be cakewalk for them either.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

LOL, whining about an ARC nerf. Unless you're soloing, why would you play ARC when you can play BLM or BRD instead? In the case that you are soloing, again, why arc? There are much better choices to solo. Now I feel you're whining just to whine about something. ARCs role went from ranged DD to slightly lower DPS ranged DD. Is that a fundamental change? I think not.

Lets be honest, the only reason to level ARC is to unlock BRD in terms of end game. If I'm forming a group, and you said you wanted to play ARC when we need ranged DD, I'd boot you for somebody who would play BLM. If we needed a BRD and you went ARC, I'd boot you for someone who'd play BRD.

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So essentially you admit there is a problem with ARC as there is no reason to play it or take one along. You either have to play a different ranged DD or switch to a supporting ranged DD. So yes the fundamentals have changed because you don't play ARC. It went from being a top tier DD to being forced into a support DD and if you're not willing to do that then you don't get to play, simple as.

And of course I go BRD or THM/BLM as needed. I don't go ARC for the sake of going ARC.

I'd argue that it was an unnecessary nerf whether I had the job levelled or not. If they had nerfed PLD then I would say the exact same thing.

There's nothing wrong with ARC, BRD just has the benefit of you know, buffing the party in a world where there's a lack of a dedicated buffer xD.

The main reason I wish they'd go with the route of FFIII/FFV/XI setup, but ah well.

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Originally Posted by Zaris

I read this and I think: if the game developers are truly responsible for us - the players - stacking classes and jobs, the solution should be to limit the number of jobs/classes in a full party.

One example could be incentivising balanced party setups. If the system detects a qualifying setup, it could enhance or increase battle rewards regardless of the time taken to complete it. However, it would be up to the game developers to set and recognize those parameters.

I feel I am inclined to agree with Chardrizard. Accomplishing and achieving difficult content should be a fun task. Efficiency is a choice. Steps can be taken to promote balanced setups (or so-called "inferior setups") rather than efficient ones. But it shouldn't be cakewalk for them either.

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Or just change the party bonus. Instead of say having a full party buff, for every member in the party you have of a certain job you will get a stat bonus that isn't stackable. Paladin could be defense and hp ( ironic i know), warrior could be attack power, archer accuracy and crit rate, monk attack speed blm refresh and dragoon tp bonus, white mage could give regen to everyone in party. Something along those lines would give us an incentive to use a diverse party and all of those bonuses are all really great things you would want to have in a party.

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Originally Posted by Kaith

So essentially you admit there is a problem with ARC as there is no reason to play it or take one along. You either have to play a different ranged DD or switch to a supporting ranged DD.

And of course I go BRD or THM/BLM as needed. I don't go ARC for the sake of going ARC.

I'd argue that it was an unnecessary nerf whether I had the job levelled or not. If they had nerfed PLD then I would say the exact same thing.

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No, what I'm saying is that aside from leveling, classes aren't really meant for party play. Also, the "nerf" to arc is hardly a nerf at all, they changed how a single recast timer works. That's it.

Tested Dragoon last night and gotta say I love the changes...

Also from JP players blog post on lodestone: http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=369978

Before Power Surge - Physical Attack at 577, after Power Surge rank3 (max) 923
+346 Physical Attack... /drool

Just randomly wondering but... With the addition of things like Invigorate, Blood for Blood, Keen Strike and other support-type abilities wouldn't Archer be a superior DD to Bard?
If any of you check my Lodestone you'll see my ARC ain't even level 20 so obviously I don't have the slightest idea, so that is why i'm asking.

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Originally Posted by Skies

Just randomly wondering but... With the addition of things like Invigorate, Blood for Blood, Keen Strike and other support-type abilities wouldn't Archer be a superior DD to Bard?
If any of you check my Lodestone you'll see my ARC ain't even level 20 so obviously I don't have the slightest idea, so that is why i'm asking.

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I don't play arc or brd much at all, but I'd say you're probably correct on that. However, I lead groups, that's what I do in this game. The thing is, if you're gonna bring ranged dd, why bring ARCs, when you can bring BLMs for MUCH more dps? So really all the added dps from ARC amounts to is better soloing on ARC vs BRD.

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

Tested Dragoon last night and gotta say I love the changes...

Also from JP players blog post on lodestone: http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=369978

Before Power Surge - Physical Attack at 577, after Power Surge rank3 (max) 923
+346 Physical Attack... /drool

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I put a lot of Crit Rate+ and Crit ATK+ gear on me and was doing easy 1k+ Blindside+Doomspikes on Princess.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I put a lot of Crit Rate+ and Crit ATK+ gear on me and was doing easy 1k+ Blindside+Doomspikes on Princess.

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Should of bought Explorer's Moccasins when I can... price suddenly jumped up on Aegis... orz

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

Should of bought Explorer's Moccasins when I can... price suddenly jumped up on Aegis... orz

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They drop all the time in speed run chests in AV. Just do one or two and they will drop.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

They drop all the time in speed run chests in AV. Just do one or two and they will drop.

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My linkshell group not so lucky getting enough members to do IR runs recently thanks to D3 ><

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Originally Posted by Skies

Just randomly wondering but... With the addition of things like Invigorate, Blood for Blood, Keen Strike and other support-type abilities wouldn't Archer be a superior DD to Bard?
If any of you check my Lodestone you'll see my ARC ain't even level 20 so obviously I don't have the slightest idea, so that is why i'm asking.

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That's a bit debatable, on one hand yes you have all those abilities on Archer, on the other hand you have a 3min pseudo Invigorate and another AoE WS you can cycle through with a good stun rate on Bard. It essentially comes down too which gives the better DoT benefits, spamming 4-5 JA's every 30-60 seconds to boost your damage, or spamming unboosted WS's and basic shots far more often.

The only "real" fix to PLD would to be to allow it to generate much more threat than WAR. Survivability is a moot point so there really is only threat and damage.

WAR should be higher damage
PLD should be higher threat (which allows more damage through other party members)

Do that and people have a choice.


Also BRD nerf was to make them fall in line with other meele, who's AA resets upon use of any ability or WS. Honestly using skills such as Raging Strike, Barrage, Quelling strike, etc should also reset Light Shot recast to make BRD exactly the same as the other meele.

Truthfully though SE needs to figure out a way to just have AA go all the time and never get reset but I think they posted they won't do that because it would be too problematic with the animations skills and WS's do.

I'm lazy but I was going to make a video of AA not going off for 5 minutes because if you cycle your abilities right you can cancel yourself from ever auto-attacking atm.

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

My linkshell group not so lucky getting enough members to do IR runs recently thanks to D3 ><

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That is a problem with most LS's. :(

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

My linkshell group not so lucky getting enough members to do IR runs recently thanks to D3 ><

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You can speed clear AV with 5-6ppl no need for a full party of 8. :)

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Originally Posted by Tango

You can speed clear AV with 5-6ppl no need for a full party of 8. :)

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Oh yeah?? What setup you guys use?? We have 5-6 so can test it out lol

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Originally Posted by Tango

You can speed clear AV with 5-6ppl no need for a full party of 8. :)

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My LS hasn't really touched AV much yet. So this is intriguing. Mind filling the rest of us in on your strategy?

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

Tested Dragoon last night and gotta say I love the changes...

Also from JP players blog post on lodestone: http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=369978

Before Power Surge - Physical Attack at 577, after Power Surge rank3 (max) 923
+346 Physical Attack... /drool

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Rein can you see if the other forums have any info on Crit Rate and Crit Damage increase numbers? I'm looking for some coutner-evidence to my friend's claim that Criticals have been nerfed.

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Oh yeah?? What setup you guys use?? We have 5-6 so can test it out lol

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try out: WHM,WAR,BLM,BLM,BLM,BRD
no fruit (maybe just red fruit for mistress depends on time)
convert/burn coincounter
@ last blue circle swap for mistress to:
WHM,WAR,BLM,MNK,MNK,BRD

WHM has to be above avg skill to keep group alive solo w/o fruit
DPS has to be above avg (125+dps on coincounter, 160+dps on mistress) str pots/int pots/ mad pots
WAR has to help out with Steel Cyclone at each flare spot + collusion top DPS blm

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My LS hasn't really touched AV much yet. So this is intriguing. Mind filling the rest of us in on your strategy?

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My ls did some speed runs with 7ppl (not many since we usually have 8+ anyway) but its 100% possible to do with 7, and based on DPS/parsing/fraps you could do with 6 if you had all high quality players who know the battle plan ahead of time. With 8ppl its very easy to do 17min. clears and on the flare spots with 5BLM's 1 is usually getting no dmg since it only takes 4 well geared BLM's to kill everything at those spots.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Rein can you see if the other forums have any info on Crit Rate and Crit Damage increase numbers? I'm looking for some coutner-evidence to my friend's claim that Criticals have been nerfed.

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I read the opposite, I thought crit's got buffed...

Here it is:

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Originally Posted by NOC_NA

The algorithm for calculating the following parameters has been revised:

Critical Hit Rating / Critical Hit Attack Power / Magic Critical Hit Rating

* Players will find the impact of these parameters more pronounced when facing higher-level enemies.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Rein can you see if the other forums have any info on Crit Rate and Crit Damage increase numbers? I'm looking for some coutner-evidence to my friend's claim that Criticals have been nerfed.

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Dunno about crit damage but there's this stuff http://minus-k.com/nejitsu/loader/up177483.jpg (sorry it's in JP)
It's against the gate guard lv52 at Zaharak - top row is data with +65 crit acc and bottom one is with +15 crit acc, showing crit rate on the right side.

+65 Crit Acc did 15.28%
+15 Crit Acc did 6.67%