The trouble with telling tanks W2W pulls are a mandatory norm.

Go fast, touch grass.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I know it's a cliche at this point; but if you don't like the random, disparate styles and goals that come with random groups then create your own groups and enforce your mindset.

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Exactly, but this goes both ways.

If a person wants to 100% have a specific kind of run, they shouldn't be queueing for DF, full stop, no exceptions. Whether its wanting W2W or slow as molasses.

Once you're in the DF, majority rules regardless of your own personal thoughts, and if you don't agree with the majority, you leave or conform. Thankfully, the overwhelming desire of DF is to go as fast as possible so the slow runners are very often in the very small minority.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

Exactly, but this goes both ways.

If a person wants to 100% have a specific kind of run, they shouldn't be queueing for DF, full stop, no exceptions. Whether its wanting W2W or slow as molasses.

Once you're in the DF, majority rules regardless of your own personal thoughts, and if you don't agree with the majority, you leave or conform. Thankfully, the overwhelming desire of DF is to go as fast as possible so the slow runners are very often in the minority.

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I agree that in DF majority rules, and I've always felt that vote kicking is completely justified if playstyles can't be reconciled.

From what I've seen, however, the overwhelming desire in DF is to just get the content done without talking to anybody. In that way most people don't really care or even notice if someone in the group is slacking. People who legitimately care enough to pipe up are rare, and in fact a minority; and when they kick up a fuss or try to vote kick they usually get ignored.

Either way, people who want to do the bare minimum don't need to use PF because they don't care how the rest of the group plays. If everyone else wants to be lazy to it's fine, and if they want to play their little hearts out that's also fine. Lazy players are flexible, and don't need to change how everyone else around them is playing.

People who require fast runs need to forcibly alter the playstyles of others, though, and that requires PF.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I'm guessing they don't care about your reasons or preferences any more than you care about theirs. They'd prefer a lazy run for "reasons" and you'd prefer an ultra effort, fast as possible run for "reasons." Neither of you is right, wrong or out of line. Different playstyles and goals happen when different people are paired up randomly.

Too many people struggle to accept that, and just get worked up when they run into motivations that don't mirror their own. I know it's a cliche at this point; but if you don't like the random, disparate styles and goals that come with random groups then create your own groups and enforce your mindset.

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How on earth did you get that from what they said?

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Originally Posted by Xirean

How on earth did you get that from what they said?

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Intuition. If they have no preference towards optimal effort and fast clears then lazy players shouldn't be an issue for them.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Intuition. If they have no preference towards optimal effort and fast clears then lazy players shouldn't be an issue for them.

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That's not at all what that means. People can have a preference for a range of effort. It's not a this or that situation.

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Originally Posted by Psytic

I don't know maybe I just suck at Scholar but I find I have less burst healing then the other two healers so sometimes its a bit harder keep people up on W2W especially when 7/10 tanks don't use defensive cool downs on trash to help you out.

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SCH has the worst kit of the 3 for leveling.

WHM > Diurnal AST > Nocturnal AST > SCH

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Originally Posted by Xirean

That's not at all what that means. People can have a preference for a range of effort. It's not a this or that situation.

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So are you saying they wouldn't prefer optimal or maximum effort? That their preference for speed ends somewhere below optimal; and anything faster they wouldn't approve of?

I'd say if you prefer speed then it's reasonable to intuit that preference extends to the fastest possible.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

People who require fast runs need to forcibly alter the playstyles of others, though, and that requires PF.

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You oddly both acknowledged Daerilon's point and missed it at the same time. Like she said, and I agree myself, it goes both ways. People who demand slow, leisurely runs also need to alter their preferred playstyle if they queue into DF and everyone else wants to go fast. Otherwise, they're the ones who should go into PF or use Trusts.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Intuition. If they have no preference towards optimal effort and fast clears then lazy players shouldn't be an issue for them.

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Well, your intuition needs work.

Being efficient doesn't necessarily mean "hyper, speed optimization!" Speaking for myself, I'm not fussed over a White Mage who uses a few extra Cure IIs instead of Holys I probably didn't need or a Paladin that Clemency's once in a while even if completely unnecessary. Wall pulling isn't speed running but simply moving the dungeon long at a faster pace because the mobs don't deal enough outgoing damage. It's expecting a decent amount of healer DPS and DPS themselves to properly AoE.

For what I said specifically. My point is I want everyone to put in a reasonably efficient effort. If you're queuing into content to get away from your screaming child and thus only want to spam heals without ever touching Holy. You're neither putting in a reasonable effort nor being fair to your party mates and should probably sort out your RL problem first. Whenever I do content, even if I've had a hard day, I still try to separate that from how I play because, well it isn't anyone else's fault nor concern my day is bad. I'm not going to turn a twelve minute dungeon into a thirty minute one because I wanna take things slow when they don't. If my personal problems are that bad. I'll do someone on my own.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

So are you saying they wouldn't prefer optimal or maximum effort? That their preference for speed ends somewhere below optimal; and anything faster they wouldn't approve of?

I'd say if you prefer speed then it's reasonable to intuit that preference extends to the fastest possible.

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You realize that people can have a range of comfortably right? I prefer somewhat faster runs. That doesn't mean that I need every run to be in that spot. If I get a tank who does really good pulls, or dps who do insane damage, or whatever then I appreciate that. I don't expect it. Likewise if I get people who are slightly below where I usually prefer people to be, that is also fine. I'm not gonna flip out on someone cause they are going too fast. If someone requests to go slow, I'm not gonna bother them about that either. I really don't get the conclusions you jump to.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You oddly both acknowledged Daerilon's point and missed it at the same time. Like she said, and I agree myself, it goes both ways. People who demand slow, leisurely runs also need to alter their preferred playstyle if they queue into DF and everyone else wants to go fast. Otherwise, they're the ones who should go into PF or use Trusts.

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No one demands slow, leisurely runs. They simply put minimal effort into their own play; they don't tell you to slow down or care if you want to optimize. That's the difference; lazy players don't care what the rest of the group does, and that's why they don't need to use PF to force anything. You need everyone else to play a certain way to get what you want, though, hence why PF is the solution to your problem.

If lazy players are constantly getting vote kicked they may have to use PF, but they're not. If you could easily get a consensus to vote kick this kind of player you wouldn't be here complaining. Truth is most people don't actually care.

Also, can't do roulettes with trusts.

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Well, your intuition needs work.

Being efficient doesn't necessarily mean "hyper, speed optimization!" Speaking for myself, I'm not fussed over a White Mage who uses a few extra Cure IIs instead of Holys I probably didn't need or a Paladin that Clemency's once in a while even if completely unnecessary. Wall pulling isn't speed running but simply moving the dungeon long at a faster pace because the mobs don't deal enough outgoing damage. It's expecting a decent amount of healer DPS and DPS themselves to properly AoE.

For what I said specifically. My point is I want everyone to put in a reasonably efficient effort. If you're queuing into content to get away from your screaming child and thus only want to spam heals without ever touching Holy. You neither putting in a reasonable effort nor being fair to your party mates and should probably sort out your RL problem first. Whenever I do content, even if I've had a hard day, I still try to separate that from how I play because, well it isn't anyone else's fault nor concern my day is bad. I'm not going to turn a twelve minute dungeon into a thirty minute one because I wanna take things slow when they don't. If my personal problems are that bad. I'll do someone on my own.

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So, if someone is playing reasonably efficient and optimal that's fine, but if someone is putting in too much effort and playing too optimally that becomes a problem for you? I didn't say you "expect" ultra effort I said you'd "prefer" it.

I feel like this community is really bad at reading and understanding words.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

No one demands slow, leisurely runs. They simply put minimal effort into their own play; they don't tell you to slow down or care if you want to optimize. That's the difference; lazy players don't care what the rest of the group does, and that's why they don't need to use PF to force anything. You need everyone else to play a certain way to get what you want, though, hence why PF is the solution to your problem.

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There are actually people who demand/request slow runs. Additionally something NEEDS to be understood here. Everything that everyone does in a run impacts the other players in the run.
Go fast: Have to play more efficiently
Go Slow: Spend more time in the instance
Don't do mechanics: Healer has to heal/res more often
Don't do combos: Fight takes longer or in some instances a wipe occurs
Don't use tank cooldowns: healer has to heal more

This can be more in depth, but people really need to understand that wanting players to have a reasonable baseline is not a bad thing. Acting as though going slowly is the default is simply untrue. Similarly acting as though going insanely fast is the default is also untrue.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

So, if someone is playing reasonably efficient and optimal that's fine, but if someone is putting in too much effort and playing too optimally that becomes a problem for you? I didn't say you "expect" ultra effort I said you'd "prefer" it.

I feel like this community is really bad at reading and understanding words.

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Thank you for describing yourself so succinctly.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

This can be more in depth, but people really need to understand that wanting players to have a reasonable baseline is not a bad thing. Acting as though going slowly is the default is simply untrue. Similarly acting as though going insanely fast is the default is also untrue.

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Never said going slow is the default; I said there is no default. Any DF group is 4 individuals with specific individual standards and expectations. Wanting players to have a reasonable baseline is pointless, because no one cares what you want. If you go into DF expecting people to care about your arbitrary standards then you're just going to get frustrated at the constant realization that you're simply not that important. It's why I keep suggesting PF if your "baseline" is really that important to you.

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Thank you for describing yourself so succinctly.

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Are you sure you want to go with a completely nonsensical "I know you are, but what am I!" here? Do you really not know the difference between a preference and an expectation?

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Never said going slow is the default; I said there is no default. Any DF group is 4 individuals with specific individual standards and expectations. Wanting players to have a reasonable baseline is pointless, because no one cares what you want. If you go into DF expecting people to care about your arbitrary standards then you're just going to get frustrated at the constant realization that you're simply not that important. It's why I keep suggesting PF if your "baseline" is really that important to you.


Are you sure you want to go with a completely nonsensical "I know you are, but what am I!" here? Do you really not know the difference between a preference and an expectation?

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Right cause that's why most parties never actually communicate how they want to run through a dungeon and naturally fall into whatever pace works for them until someone goes outside of that unspoken range that people have. The very fact that you're trying to express "don't have a standard" is in itself setting a standard. I don't have to care if people care. Most people fall into my expectations without me having to say anything. The amount of times I personally express or see someone express a desire for the run to go at a different pace is laughably low. People also have standards of communication. That's pretty clear when you try to give someone advice and they completely deny it or even get angry at you. Some people's standards are simply to never be told what to do at all while others greatly desire input.

Also to your last point. Do you? You've consistently misunderstood peoples comments in this thread on that exact topic.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Right cause that's why most parties never actually communicate how they want to run through a dungeon and naturally fall into whatever pace works for them until someone goes outside of that unspoken range that people have. The very fact that you're trying to express "don't have a standard" is in itself setting a standard. I don't have to care if people care. Most people fall into my expectations without me having to say anything. The amount of times I personally express or see someone express a desire for the run to go at a different pace is laughably low. People also have standards of communication. That's pretty clear when you try to give someone advice and they completely deny it or even get angry at you. Some people's standards are simply to never be told what to do at all while others greatly desire input.

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So you're basically just repeating what I said now; that most people don't care and there is no default. I never said you have to care that people don't care; just understand it. Creating drama in groups and on the forums about people being "lazy" is pointless and a waste of energy. If it bothers you then create PF groups.

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Also to your last point. Do you? You've consistently misunderstood peoples comments in this thread on that exact topic.

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Erm, you're the one who quoted my intuiting someone's preferences and responded with a bunch of rambling nonsense about their expectations. I'll repeat; I said preferences and you responded with "those aren't our expectations" So, I have to ask yet again, do you have any idea what those words mean? Is there a reason you're using them interchangeably? Would you like to look them up before responding?

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Erm, you're the one who quoted my intuiting someone's preferences and responded with a bunch of rambling nonsense about their expectations. I'll repeat; I said preferences and you responded with "those aren't our expectations" So, I have to ask yet again, do you have any idea what those words mean? Is there a reason you're using them interchangeably? Would you like to look them up before responding?

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Because you act like preferring fast runs means you expect fast runs. Then when I called you out on it you started getting nit-picky about verbage and still are. People can prefer whatever they want and not expect it to happen.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

For the sake of example, I used to have a friend back in Heavensward who arbitrarily decided to have "lazy days". She'd queue as a healer and basically do enough to keep the party alive but very little else because "I'm tired and lazy." We got into an argument when I happened to be MT for Dun Scaith and was in Deliverance, which meant she needed to heal more. She insisted I need to stay in Defiance as did one of her friends because "if the healer asks you to be in tank stance, you just do it." She was actively wanting to ruin my enjoyment for her own. Her entire line of reason falls under your "just wanting to chill" excuse. The problem is, that enjoyment for one person comes at the potential expense of others.

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It sounds like there was a lack of communication there. That's probably something that should have been worked out before you queued. And you couldn't bend or adjust your mentality even for someone you say was a friend? You have the mentality that anyone not taking the game as seriously as you do is making excuses but you don't recognize anything about your own inability to adjust.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Because you act like preferring fast runs means you expect fast runs. Then when I called you out on it you started getting nit-picky about verbage and still are. People can prefer whatever they want and not expect it to happen.

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So, I never said ANYTHING about expectations; you just randomly decided that's what I meant and started arguing with me based on that? Priceless.

I said preference because preference is what I meant. I never once said that any of you expect ultra effort, 100% optimal play. So, did that clear this up for you? Are you done creating strawmen to argue?

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

So, I never said ANYTHING about expectations; you just randomly decided that's what I meant and started arguing with me based on that? Priceless.

I said preference because preference is what I meant. I never once said that any of you expect ultra effort, 100% optimal play. So, did that clear this up for you? Are you done creating strawmen to argue?

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Again you're trying to weasel out of something by semantics. You realize I never actually used the word expectation until you brought it up. Then acted like I use them interchangeably when I don't. Take your own advice and stop creating strawmen to argue.

I am obv new, but even I have seen people ‘complain’ to the tanks for larger pulls. Never really realized it was a thing, since unlike most mmos you do not need to kill all the trash.

With the influx of BnS, WoW, Swtor and other mmo players coming in- where killing of all ads is usually mandatory in raids and encounters, people have not yet figured out that it’s not needed. These new players are racing through the game, so that they can keep up with asmongold- who is a streamer and can progress way faster then most. It may be why we are seeing more of this toxic behaviour.

We will see how bad the problem is with time, when other WoW refugees [myself included] will bounce from the game within 1-2 months time

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Again you're trying to weasel out of something by semantics. You realize I never actually used the word expectation until you brought it up. Then acted like I use them interchangeably when I don't. Take your own advice and stop creating strawmen to argue.

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What am I weaseling out of exactly? I said someone had a preference for super optimal play and you accused me of saying they expect it. You even JUST said I "act" like preferring fast runs means you expect them...

You were wrong; you're backpedaling and basically just repeating everything I say to you back to me. You're flailing and in a tailspin here; just admit you got confused about what a preference is and move on.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

What am I weaseling out of exactly? I said someone had a preference for super optimal play and you accused me of saying they expect it. You even JUST said I "act" like preferring fast runs means you expect them...

You were wrong; you're backpedaling and basically just repeating everything I say to you back to me. You're flailing and in a tailspin here; just admit you got confused about what a preference is and move on.

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Stop acting like you're representing people in good faith. Someone shared a story of a person in a run "being lazy" and in that story defined this as non consistent behavior. You then say that player "prefers slow runs" which you can't verify based off that story. You simultaneously assumed what the poster wanted for no reason. I asked you why you made that jump and you said intuition which the poster even stated was incorrect. Then you continue to try to nit pick with them about it. When I again called you on it, you started jumping down this rabbit hole of semantics. You are literally creating strawmen to argue with people. You think I'm flailing when in reality I'm calling you out for what appears to me is a bad faith conversation.

Either way I'm done with you. Talking to you is like screaming at traffic and expecting it to move.

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Originally Posted by AusarViled

I am obv new, but even I have seen people ‘complain’ to the tanks for larger pulls. Never really realized it was a thing, since unlike most mmos you do not need to kill all the trash.

With the influx of BnS, WoW, Swtor and other mmo players coming in- where killing of all ads is usually mandatory in raids and encounters, people have not yet figured out that it’s not needed. These new players are racing through the game, so that they can keep up with asmongold- who is a streamer and can progress way faster then most. It may be why we are seeing more of this toxic behaviour.

We will see how bad the problem is with time, when other WoW refugees [myself included] will bounce from the game within 1-2 months time

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While there are plenty of avoidable enemies in ARR dungeons, once you reach HW and beyond all mobs usually need to be killed in order to advance further in the dungeon. Enemies are linked to one another as opposed to roaming solo, and aggroing one enemy in a pack will cause the rest to aggro as well. Trying to avoid or ignore them typically just results in running into an unbreakable wall or barrier that won't disappear until all enemies are dead, or until you collect a key item... that drops from the last enemy to die.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

No one demands slow, leisurely runs.

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Oh, yes they do. Or more specifically, they use to. It wasn't uncommon to have healers ask for small pulls, refuse to even heal large ones and so forth. It's less common now because... the standard of "pull everything" took off. People more or less expect tanks to pop sprint and go nowadays.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

So, if someone is playing reasonably efficient and optimal that's fine, but if someone is putting in too much effort and playing too optimally that becomes a problem for you? I didn't say you "expect" ultra effort I said you'd "prefer" it.

I feel like this community is really bad at reading and understanding words.

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The irony is here astounding.

Nothing I said remotely insinuated anything you just said. You're strawmanning at this point.

If I preferred "ultra effort" as you put it, I'd do actual speed runs. Which typically don't even involve a healer. There is marked difference between that degree of efficiency and simply preferring a reasonable baseline. Anything beyond performing your role properly, i.e., decent healer DPS, everyone AoE's, tank rotates CDs, is gravy. I really couldn't care less, though I certainly won't complain if I get a stellar group that nukes everything in seconds.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It sounds like there was a lack of communication there. That's probably something that should have been worked out before you queued. And you couldn't bend or adjust your mentality even for someone you say was a friend? You have the mentality that anyone not taking the game as seriously as you do is making excuses but you don't recognize anything about your own inability to adjust.

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No. It's about not wanting to coddle someone who literally only wanted to do the bare minimum for no other reason beyond "I wanna be lazy." There isn't an adjustment to be made because if I got into Tank Stance, I take a 20% penalty and lose access to Fell Cleave. All for no reason. Adjusting would be say, like my current BFF who asks not to let her HP drop super low because it makes her nervous. A couple extra Cure II/Solace doesn't really change anything. She's actively trying to improve her tanking, not arbitrarily saying "I don't wanna heal so sit in tank stance." It wasn't like I was undergeared either. I was full BiS.

I don't take the game seriously but simply enjoy focusing on high damage. That's how I find content fun. Sitting in Tank Stance for no reason isn't fun, especially in Dun Scaith where it wasn't remotely needed. Nice assumption though.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

SCH has the worst kit of the 3 for leveling.

WHM > Diurnal AST > Nocturnal AST > SCH

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I feel like that depends on the level range. I actually find SCH at level 50 to have a more flexible kit than WHM, at least in high-end level 50 stuff like synced Coils. But by the time you're up at 60, I think you're right that WHM's got the better leveling kit.

But yes, it's a good thing to keep in mind that different jobs have different capabilities at different level ranges; at endgame everything tends to be pretty evenly balanced, but that's not always true prior to level cap.

I just stick by this creed:
New player in dungeon? Doesn't matter to me. The run can go at whatever pace.

No new players in dungeon?
Level 60 and below: Tank's new and learning. Healer could be new and learning.
Level 60 to 70: Tank's no longer new and has a couple of expansions worth of levels to get familiar with the role. Expecting a minimum of double pulls unless party wipes. Healer is also no longer new. In most cases, healers don't have to hardcast heals in single pulls to survive, so they might as well be replaced by a DPS.

Level 70 and beyond: Tanks no longer new, just pull as much as you can until you die. Not tank gets close to death so they stop pulling, pull as much as possible until you die. Then adjust if necessary. Healers also have 70+ levels to get familiar with the role and have skills that are more beneficial to use when the tank drops under a certain amount of HP. If the healer hasn't gotten you killed, then there's no problem no matter how low the tank's HP goes.

If the party is still doing single pulls in Shadowbringers dungeons, it means someone has either no clue how to utilize their kit effectively, or they don't realize they're burdening another party member by making their job more difficult. All in all though, it's just a game and death doesn't cause any losses. I also have no issues if the party isn't perfect, but I have no problem abandoning the party if I feel like the party won't succeed because one person is carrying all the weight and dragging the entire party over the finish line. At that point, there's no difference between playing with NPCs in trusts, except NPCs can do mechanics better than most players do.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I feel like that depends on the level range. I actually find SCH at level 50 to have a more flexible kit than WHM, at least in high-end level 50 stuff like synced Coils. But by the time you're up at 60, I think you're right that WHM's got the better leveling kit.

But yes, it's a good thing to keep in mind that different jobs have different capabilities at different level ranges; at endgame everything tends to be pretty evenly balanced, but that's not always true prior to level cap.

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Versatility and flexibility don't equate to HPs.
SCH will always have a worse leveling experience because they don't have regens on GCD. The only exception is pre level 30 because eos can solo heal.

And synced coils aren't part of the leveling experience.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Stop acting like you're representing people in good faith. Someone shared a story of a person in a run "being lazy" and in that story defined this as non consistent behavior. You then say that player "prefers slow runs" which you can't verify based off that story. You simultaneously assumed what the poster wanted for no reason. I asked you why you made that jump and you said intuition which the poster even stated was incorrect. Then you continue to try to nit pick with them about it. When I again called you on it, you started jumping down this rabbit hole of semantics. You are literally creating strawmen to argue with people. You think I'm flailing when in reality I'm calling you out for what appears to me is a bad faith conversation.

Either way I'm done with you. Talking to you is like screaming at traffic and expecting it to move.

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No, I explained I intuited a preference based on their actions in the story and you called me out based on you reasoning that I assumed an expectation. I explained that a preference is not an expectation, and from there you just kept doubling down on your incorrect reasoning until you left yourself with no option but to backpedal out of it.

Right now you and that other person are just being argumentative because you're too invested to admit you made a mistake.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

If I preferred "ultra effort" as you put it, I'd do actual speed runs. Which typically don't even involve a healer. There is marked difference between that degree of efficiency and simply preferring a reasonable baseline. Anything beyond performing your role properly, i.e., decent healer DPS, everyone AoE's, tank rotates CDs, is gravy. I really couldn't care less, though I certainly won't complain if I get a stellar group that nukes everything in seconds.

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This is just nonsense. First, you can't run roulettes with 3 DPS so that's not even an option.

Let me explain to you the concept of preference. If your options are a 15 minute run or a 10 minute run, and you're in any way inclined to favor speed, then of course you'd prefer the 10 minute run. I'm not saying you'd throw a fit at the 15 minute run, that's just your defensive take away. Stating you'd prefer an ultra fast run was a benign comment and not even necessarily the point of what I was saying; you and your sidekick were just made defensive by what you thought it implied, and now you've argued yourselves into a semantic hole and are trying to dig yourselves out. Seriously, it'd be easier for you both to just admit you forgot what a preference is.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is just nonsense. First, you can't run roulettes with 3 DPS so that's not even an option.

Let me explain to you the concept of preference. If your options are a 15 minute run or a 10 minute run, and you're in any way inclined to favor speed, then of course you'd prefer the 10 minute run. I'm not saying you'd throw a fit at the 15 minute run, that's just your defensive take away. Stating you'd prefer an ultra fast run was a benign comment and not even necessarily the point of what I was saying; you and your sidekick were just made defensive by what you thought it implied, and now you've argued yourselves into a semantic hole and are trying to dig yourselves out. Seriously, it'd be easier for you both to just admit you forgot what a preference is.

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No. You keep moving the goal post and insist on making a different argument. What you said in this post implies something entirely different than what I originally responded to. And now you're attempting to dismiss it off-handedly as simply semantics. Saying something like I expect or even prefer "ultra effort" neither had anything to do with what I was saying nor was it even correct. When I stated otherwise, you went on a nonsensical spiel, asking if I'd be upset over people playing too optimally. Which didn't make any sense given my response.

Simply put. You characterized your argument terribly, were criticised for it and are now trying to claim it was all semantics and we "misunderstood." It's disingenuous nonsense. But I'll leave you to have the last word.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

No. You keep moving the goal post and insist on making a different argument. What you said in this post implies something entirely different than what I originally responded to. And now you're attempting to dismiss it off-handedly as simply semantics. Saying something like I expect or even prefer "ultra effort" neither had anything to do with what I was saying nor was it even correct. When I stated otherwise, you went on a nonsensical spiel, asking if I'd be upset over people playing too optimally. Which didn't make any sense given my response.

Simply put. You characterized your argument terribly, were criticised for it and are now trying to claim it was all semantics and we "misunderstood." It's disingenuous nonsense. But I'll leave you to have the last word.

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This isn't as confusing as you're trying to make it. I made an offhand comment about you preferring ultra fast runs; it was one sentence Xirean decided to focus on because he thought I was implying that you expect perfect runs. From there I tried to explain WHY I used the word "prefer" and what a preference is, but it wasn't sinking in at all. Then from there you jumped in with a bunch of defensive assumptions, and now you're acting like I'm trying to back out of something I never said.

Seriously, this is just hilarious at this point. Admitting you made a mistake would've been so much easier than all of this.

Honestly, the fact that W2W pulling is so viable a strategy concerns me. Are dungeons really so trivial?

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Originally Posted by VippidyP

Honestly, the fact that W2W pulling is so viable a strategy concerns me. Are dungeons really so trivial?

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Warrior can solo the latest expert dungeon.

DW about it tbh end walkers comes they'll block every single mob pack off by floating platforms or some other mechanic. Don't want to create a toxic environment.

Really don't care whatever pull do as long as they don't waste in typing chat and arguing.
Lv79 dungeon is fun as an example but I do not trust big enough for w2w simply because most of dps will get hit by non telegraph attacks too.

Always need to pay attention to all party members regardless, not just tank or healers. There is absolutely no joy w2w in low level dungeons if I have both dps melee where they can't aoe, or if the dragoon at lv60/70 still doesn't bother to aoe because they love their long single target rotation. There is no joy in that

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Originally Posted by VippidyP

Honestly, the fact that W2W pulling is so viable a strategy concerns me. Are dungeons really so trivial?

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short answer: yes
longer answer: yes, aside from a select few and those select few are also w2w-able with a coordinated team, aurum vale aside
the rest can be w2w'd with complete randoms if they learned their class at a decent level

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

short answer: yes
longer answer: yes, aside from a select few and those select few are also w2w-able with a coordinated team, aurum vale aside
the rest can be w2w'd with complete randoms if they learned their class at a decent level

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That's the biggest catch: learned their class at a decent level.

I would say that dungeons are as challenging as the players make it. This can range from almost impossible to complete to a total cake walk for the same dungeon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VippidyP

Honestly, the fact that W2W pulling is so viable a strategy concerns me. Are dungeons really so trivial?

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After ARR, kinda. It's a complaint I've seen float around a lot. Also part of the reason I think that W2W is so consistent a discussion. Most of the dungeons in the game can be W2W pulled with little to no detriment. The only times I've found exceptions are ARR because there design strategy is inconsistent (not a bad thing) and very low item level players.