Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

There is always going to be a top DPS. The question is WHERE that level is going to be set. It may be that SE likes the numbers BLM has, in which case it won't be nerfed but have other jobs tuned around it. Or perhaps MNK is the correct standard... or SAM, etc.

The point is that we do not know how SE is thinking on these numbers yet.

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Come back out of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber though?

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No.

That's not how balance in this game has ever, ever worked.

People have always looked to the speedkill meta, since the moment speedkills have existed, to determine what jobs are better or worse. Jobs that were even 2% behind have been labeled as trash bin status.

Even though it doesn't matter directly to more than a scant few players, player perception of game balance is almost always based around how things compare at the highest levels of play, in any game. FFXIV is no different.

BLM was considered bad in 4.0-4.3 because it brought less damage than Summoner. Caster res had nothing to do with it other than adding salt in the wound. When it got buffed and became meta, it was considered good by the broader public. No asterisks about caster raise at all; nobody cared.

RDM was in the trash bin for the whole expansion, despite being far better at ressing than SMN, because it was behind SMN on damage production. Nobody cared about the res thing. It never mattered to anyone after world prog was over. RDM was just bad, period. That was the public opinion. A job for newbies only.

You are vastly overrating the degree to which people actually care about battle res. Obviously, if things are clearly equal or sufficiently close, they'll take the res job because why not. But "sufficiently close" is a few percent at best.

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I sincerely doubt the party struggling to meet an enrage with no deaths is going to get more mileage by swapping their caster to Black Mage compared to, I don't know, tightening up their rotations. And's before buffing Summoner and Red mage to that level.

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You can't just say that BLM's increased damage shouldn't make or break a clear, without recognizing that caster res shouldn't make or break a clear either. At the end of the day, caster res is also just about increasing damage output, except it only does so on messy runs.

If BLM's added damage is worthless, then caster res is even moreso, because it provides far less damage in the very large majority of cases than BLM does.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

You are vastly overrating the degree to which people actually care about battle res. Obviously, if things are clearly equal or sufficiently close, they'll take the res job because why not. But "sufficiently close" is a few percent at best.

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Sufficiently close is literally what's being asked for.

As I've stated. Get rid of it, or share. I don't care which. Then you can close the gap all you want. Hell, shoot past it if that tickles your fancy.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Sufficiently close is literally what's being asked for.

As I've stated. Get rid of it, or share. I don't care which. Then you can close the gap all you want. Hell, shoot past it if that tickles your fancy.

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Trust me, I'd love to get rid of and so would Wayfinder. Sucks to be the only role who needs to be balanced by an inherently negative utility like raise.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Trust me, I'd love to get rid of and so would Wayfinder. Sucks to be the only role who needs to be balanced by an inherently negative utility like raise.

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Should have let us have it when we asked for it. :p

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Should have let us have it when we asked for it. :p

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Cuz it was always red mage's decision whether black mage had raise lol

I've been on team "casters shouldn't have raise" since Deltascape. It's too situational and unquantifiable, and if any job should be able to spam raise as an identity it should be a healer.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Cuz it was always red mage's decision whether black mage had raise lol

I've been on team "casters shouldn't have raise" since Deltascape. It's too situational and unquantifiable, and if any job should be able to spam raise as an identity it should be a healer.

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See, I always leaned towards "Role Action", because then you can very easily tune it to be a nifty, desirable thing. At the time, this was specifically because without raise, there was a real possibility of the ole Machinist / Bard set up coming back in. They brought every utility the caster role did but better, and played well they weren't slouches on damage.

Just like. 5 minute cooldown, instant cast, no death penalty. In today's climate though, I am definitely leaning more on the 'just get rid of it' side of things, but a part of me still very much wants more stuff, not less, across all the jobs.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

BLM also used to be only 800 rdps higher than RDM and 400 rdps higher than SMN and it was still a meta pick in Alphascape savage, so I guess having it within 500 of SMN wouldn’t make it irrelevant as it was plenty relevant in alphascape savage optimization

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500 within smn. Back when we all did like half as much dps. Big think here, what's 500x2, and where are we now? Almost like the ratios aren't too different from alphascape? Just a bit lower but not ridiculous. Not to even mention a lot of groups have been funneling their blm/drg/mnk, so it only inflates the perceived gap further until everyone has bis.

Also I was referring to the majority of the expansion. Not the final 33%.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

500 within smn. Back when we all did like half as much dps. Big think here, what's 500x2, and where are we now? Almost like the ratios aren't too different from alphascape?

Also I was referring to the majority of the expansion. Not the final 33%.

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Median pDPS difference between SMN and BLM for Alphascape savage was 140 higher pDPS for BLM, and that is not even counting SMN raid buffs.
So when adding in SMN raid buff that would be close to 0 difference.
Median rDPS difference between SMN and BLM for Eden Gate savage is 790 higher rDPS for BLM.

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Originally Posted by aiqa

Median pDPS difference between SMN and BLM for Alphascape savage was 140 higher pDPS for BLM, and that is not even counting SMN raid buffs.
So when adding in SMN raid buff that would be close to 0 difference.
Median rDPS difference between SMN and BLM for Eden Gate savage is 790 higher rDPS for BLM.

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And in what world was it considered a good design choice to make the then more mobile casters with a raise ever be that close to a pure damage job? It wasn't. It was broken for smn. It was beyond broken. Smn mains don't want the game to be ballanced, they want to be the undisputed best caster for prog and speed runs again and pretend it's fair. It never was.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Trust me, I'd love to get rid of and so would Wayfinder. Sucks to be the only role who needs to be balanced by an inherently negative utility like raise.

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Except, historically, SMN hasn't been balanced around Raise, unless its cost for having Raise still left them with more rDPS than BLM except at the tail end of each expansion/iteration.

Likewise, late-SB RDM rDPS in its optimal compositions was neck-and-neck with BLM -- again, despite having Verraise.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

BLM was considered bad in 4.0-4.3 because it brought less damage than Summoner. Caster res had nothing to do with it other than adding salt in the wound. When it got buffed and became meta, it was considered good by the broader public. No asterisks about caster raise at all; nobody cared.

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It was considered 'acceptable ' by a broader public. And still a stigma in prog.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Except, historically, SMN hasn't been balanced around Raise, unless its cost for having Raise still left them with more rDPS than BLM except at the tail end of each expansion/iteration.

Likewise, late-SB RDM rDPS in its optimal compositions was neck-and-neck with BLM -- again, despite having Verraise.

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It should have been. The fact it previously wasn't doesn't mean it was right.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

See, I always leaned towards "Role Action", because then you can very easily tune it to be a nifty, desirable thing. At the time, this was specifically because without raise, there was a real possibility of the ole Machinist / Bard set up coming back in. They brought every utility the caster role did but better, and played well they weren't slouches on damage.

Just like. 5 minute cooldown, instant cast, no death penalty. In today's climate though, I am definitely leaning more on the 'just get rid of it' side of things, but a part of me still very much wants more stuff, not less, across all the jobs.

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I'm just of the (apparently) unpopular opinion that, if I want to play a caster known for healing and support... I have Astro, White Mage, and Scholar to choose from. I always saw the discrepancy between damage casters and healer casters as damage casters being especially tuned to deal lots of damage through magical destruction.

Yet in StB and ShB we have 3 healers, 1 pseudo healer, 1 rubix cube with a raise, and one magical nuke machine.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Except, historically, SMN hasn't been balanced around Raise, unless its cost for having Raise still left them with more rDPS than BLM except at the tail end of each expansion/iteration.

Likewise, late-SB RDM rDPS in its optimal compositions was neck-and-neck with BLM -- again, despite having Verraise.

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Well that's what Kabooa and Zera are saying. It wasn't balanced around caster raise (as hard) back then, and because of it Black Mage was by and large neglected.

My point stands: sucks we are the only role that *needs* to keep this in mind.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

And in what world was it considered a good design choice to make the then more mobile casters with a raise ever be that close to a pure damage job? It wasn't. It was broken for smn. It was beyond broken. Smn mains don't want the game to be ballanced, they want to be the undisputed best caster for prog and speed runs again and pretend it's fair. It never was.

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If mobility makes a significant difference that is already accounted for in dps parses.
Counting mobility on top of parses is counting it twice, which you obviously should not do.
And you can set arbitrary value on having a raise, but going by anecdotal evidence in this thread (which you even implicitly agreed with) when balancing DPS the value of a raise is close to 0.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I sincerely doubt the party struggling to meet an enrage with no deaths is going to get more mileage by swapping their caster to Black Mage compared to, I don't know, tightening up their rotations.

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If there are no deaths what's the point of having rdm there?

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

It should have been. The fact it previously wasn't doesn't mean it was right.

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"Should have been" =/= a development precedent. Our precedent is 3 expansions of SMN rDPS outperforming BLM early on and then outperformed by BLM by expansion's end by only the slimmest of rDPS margins if any. We have only 1 expansion of history for RDM, but that, too, ended with no "Raise tax", only necessary balancing.

So where, exactly is the "we're obviously losing DPS because we have Raise" rule coming from? 3 expansions without a Raise tax for one caster. Poor balancing being rectified for the other. How is this obviously "Raise tax" and not "poor balancing" now?

Where are the quotes in which Yoshida -- having actually communicated comprehensively with his battle design team for once -- said that SMN and RDM should have less rDPS than BLM because they have Raise, despite dismissing BLM's concerns over this for three iterations (ARR, HW, SB) running?

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

And in what world was it considered a good design choice to make the then more mobile casters with a raise ever be that close to a pure damage job? It wasn't. It was broken for smn. It was beyond broken. Smn mains don't want the game to be ballanced, they want to be the undisputed best caster for prog and speed runs again and pretend it's fair. It never was.

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If we're talking Mobile casters, just by looking at their kits. BLM is the most mobile as it has the most tools that require no DPS loss. SMN would be the 2nd as even though Ruin 2 is a potency loss, it's a gain if you would use an OGCD and their are windows where your cast times are reduced to your recast time giving you instant movement. RDM would be the least as Dualcast isn't consistent, Melee combo requires the melee range position, and Reprise is never a dps gain and is a stretch used for alignment.

If mobility is the deciding factor. RDM would be the strongest caster as they need to have perfect positioning for their inconsistent burst windows. Luckily thats not the case as i don't believe their mobility is that much worse than BLM and is pretty close to SMNs. But just know that BLM IS THE MOST MOBILE CASTER IN THIS GAME no amount of dualcast can compete with movement abilities you can store and use whenever you want

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

If we're talking Mobile casters, just by looking at their kits. BLM is the most mobile as it has the most tools that require no DPS loss. SMN would be the 2nd as even though Ruin 2 is a potency loss, it's a gain if you would use an OGCD and their are windows where your cast times are reduced to your recast time giving you instant movement. RDM would be the least as Dualcast isn't consistent, Melee combo requires the melee range position, and Reprise is never a dps gain and is a stretch used for alignment.

If mobility is the deciding factor. RDM would be the strongest caster as they need to have perfect positioning for their inconsistent burst windows. Luckily thats not the case as i don't believe their mobility is that much worse than BLM and is pretty close to SMNs. But just know that BLM IS THE MOST MOBILE CASTER IN THIS GAME no amount of dualcast can compete with movement abilities you can store and use whenever you want

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Black mage has 20 +2.5 / proc seconds of movement per 60 seconds, +however much leylines / AM can net you.

Red mage needs more math (I forgot to take into account that Mana gauge has a cap. Obviously, a Red Mage would not overcap and thus the real amount of movement per minute takes more consideration.)

From a very basic level, 8 dual casts (16 GCDs) nets approximately 24 seconds of movement and between 68/68 to 82/82 mana. Up to 2 more dualcasts can occur here, though with potential to overcap on Mana.

An unlikely case of Melee combo being usable while on the move to the next destination adds a potential 10.5

Enchanted Reprise is basically Scathe and wants to be avoided if possible.

From a basic standpoint then, the Red Mage has approximately 24 seconds of movement per minute, +10.5 if a Melee Combo can line up with needed movement. We exclude Reprise because, like Scathe, we don't like to talk about it.

The question is whether or not the movement can be utilized in a positive manner. Were there smaller bouts of micromovement, the Red Mage would probably come ahead here, but as our weak mage legs tend to require movement every 30-60s, the Red Mage loses out.

Bolded is emphasis on what the jobs both have without question. Everything else is a YMMV set up favoring Black Mage. Aether skating is pretty sweet.

Not included is the Summoner having to pay a toll every time they take a step, but no one likes them anyways.

Most specifically the ability to bank that mobility for when you need it is what makes BLM's mobility better than Red Mage's. Red Mage has no answer for pantokrator style mechanics that doesn't involve losing potency or praying to God you're in a melee window / said pantokrator mechanic even allows you to be in melee (see first orbs phase with ranged baiting)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Black mage has 20 +2.5 / proc seconds of movement per 60 seconds, +however much leylines / AM can net you.

Red mage has 38.5 seconds of movement per 60 seconds, plus 10.5 if melee combo lines up, plus 2.2 every Enchanted Reprise if literally nothing else can be used, plus stutter step dual casting if such can be done. For some reason corps and displacement don't have charges on them so the likelihood of being able to use these for clever movement are pretty small.

Bolded is emphasis on what the jobs both have without question. Everything else is a YMMV set up favoring Black Mage. Aether skating is pretty sweet.

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38.5 seconds of movement means nothing when your job has 4 swiftcast a minute that isn't required to be used for direct DPS contribution. We can cherry pick dualcast in a vaccum but in execution it's not this ability that lets you run as a mad man. I could count the melee combo albeit i have to delay it for the mobility which is a DPS loss that BLM doesn't have to deal with because they can actually USE THEIR ABILITIES WHENEVER THEY WANT TO MOVE WITH NO LOSS, xenoglossy is a storeable dps Gain for them that is essentially equivalent to having 2 charges. So yeah, RDM is more mobile in a vaccum, too bad they have sacrifice so much for that claim to be true

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

38.5 seconds of movement means nothing when your job has 4 swiftcast a minute that isn't required to be used for direct DPS contribution. We can cherry pick dualcast in a vaccum but in execution it's not this ability that lets you run as a mad man. I could count the melee combo albeit i have to delay it for the mobility which is a DPS loss that BLM doesn't have to deal with because they can actually USE THEIR ABILITIES WHENEVER THEY WANT TO MOVE WITH NO LOSS, xenoglossy is a storeable dps Gain for them that is essentially equivalent to having 2 charges. So yeah, RDM is more mobile in a vaccum, too bad they have sacrifice so much for that claim to be true

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I already edited.

Please note I'm not looking to dispute, I'm trying to provide some numbers for the peanut gallery.

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Originally Posted by aiqa

If mobility makes a significant difference that is already accounted for in dps parses.
Counting mobility on top of parses is counting it twice, which you obviously should not do.
And you can set arbitrary value on having a raise, but going by anecdotal evidence in this thread (which you even implicitly agreed with) when balancing DPS the value of a raise is close to 0.

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Never have I said raise is worth 0 dps. Thats just blatantly retarded to ever assume a form of utility shouldn't come at a price to have in your kit.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

38.5 seconds of movement means nothing when your job has 4 swiftcast a minute that isn't required to be used for direct DPS contribution. We can cherry pick dualcast in a vaccum but in execution it's not this ability that lets you run as a mad man. I could count the melee combo albeit i have to delay it for the mobility which is a DPS loss that BLM doesn't have to deal with because they can actually USE THEIR ABILITIES WHENEVER THEY WANT TO MOVE WITH NO LOSS, xenoglossy is a storeable dps Gain for them that is essentially equivalent to having 2 charges. So yeah, RDM is more mobile in a vaccum, too bad they have sacrifice so much for that claim to be true

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If the bulk of blm rotation was a gcd/sub gcd cast time like rdm, I would slide cast across the arena without needing those tools. Which you can do without lining up cooldowns for long extended movement. Also xenoglossy lets us move with no downside, setting up triple, swift or sharp requires setting up a weave, and in sharp's case an additional cast to use that mobility, without clipping for a loss. Weaving ogcd's in general for blm generally require using our mobility tools to instead weave ogcds. Not saying blm isn't mobile now, it very much is. But in a vastly different sense compared to the other 2 casters.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I already edited.

Please note I'm not looking to dispute, I'm trying to provide some numbers for the peanut gallery.

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Fair enough, I have no big disagreements with your end assessment.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

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Not having anything to contribute to the party other than your own personal DPS should come at a price. No worries of where to place utilities you dont have when and where.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Never have I said raise is worth 0 dps. Thats just blatantly retarded to ever assume a form of utility shouldn't come at a price to have in your kit.



If the bulk of blm rotation was a gcd/sub gcd cast time like rdm, I would slide cast across the arena without needing those tools. Which you can do without lining up cooldowns for long extended movement. Also xeno glossylets us move with no downside, setting up triple, swift or sharp requires setting up a weave, and in sharp's case an additional cast to use that mobility, without clipping for a loss. Weaving ogcd's in general for blm generally require using our mobility tools to instead weave ogcds.

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BLM has abilities with short cast times and longer recast times that with proper planning make space for this and even still, RDM is required to clip if they're casting prior to moving and swiftcast is only ogcd that can combat this where as you have at least 3

This thread is no longer anywhere close to its original discussion. good stuff tho. I'd like to see more movement analysis between the casters done, cause that was a good little read that gave me some time to think. Caster is the one role I don't play so I have limited room to put input in other than talking about DPS disparity as seen in logs.

At the end of the day SE will decide where they want the balance line drawn, and we just have to hope they bring everything more in line when its drawn. Based on them saying they wanted to Buff samurai Im guessing the line is between SAM and DRG.

There has been a lot of throwing around of '___ was the meta back then' '___ was locked out of party finder back then' At the end of the day NO ONE should be looking for reparations because their class had a bad rep, OR forced non meta phases because xxxx class used to be on top. Speculating on the past literally brings no useful information to the table. Things are different now, and what needs to be brought in line should only be based on what a class is like in this moment, because otherwise you are using data that is literally pointless in argument or application, and usually covered in emotion.

IMO DPS for casters should be more similar regardless of how you view raise. However; raise could be kept as a utility, but perhaps the simplest solution could be to make it a forced hard cast. Swiftcast can't apply to it. If that were the case then casting raise would be a massive personal dps loss for the class that cast it. And that would also make healing and raising really only the healers jobs (as it should be imo) and make dps raises only valuable when trying to save a party cause both healers wiped. To make it more consistent, since raising a healer can amount to them being immediately flat-lined again, perhaps dps raises should also restore people to closer to full health at an even longer cast time. Thematically I also feel summoners at the very least should keep raise given their depictions in the games often enough as healers. RDM is a jack of all trades. Personally if I were to change RDM more and fleshed out I'd want to see them become more of a hybrid spellblade, lose raise and have more emphasis placed on a longer more dramatic melee phase. But I think that opinion is sadly contrary to what most people want for RDM.

These might be bad ideas, I get that Im shooting an idea into the group. But i think forced slow cast raises would help at the very least because then balancing could definitely be done without raise in mind, or at least with a much smaller dps tax given to raise casters.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Never have I said raise is worth 0 dps. Thats just blatantly retarded to ever assume a form of utility shouldn't come at a price to have in your kit.

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The price right now is way too high though. A Raise isn't worth 1.2k rDPS.


IMO, one of the biggest problems with how bad support jobs are right now in terms of player experience is how punishing it is to PuG on them at the moment. If you're playing BLM into PF, you can always carry so long as you do your job right. If you're playing NIN, RDM or DNC, you better hope that you get other three great DPS, cause a not insignificant chunk of your damage is so reliant on the rest of the party using your buffs properly. And even if you DO get great party members and you play perfectly, the rDPS is still lower than what you would've done on BML playing at an average level. The difference right now is insane and completely unfounded. Worse still, you get a "standard comp" party of only support jobs and in most cases it's "GG enrage wall" even before the pull has even started.



I've heard from top level RDMs themselves that they are really worried about the BLM weapon dropping on E4S, because then their groups would make them go BLM instead. RDM and SMN are in the same, or worse situation than BLM was in 4.0, and you will remember BLMs were very much not happy back then.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

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Another idea is limitations on the number of rezes in combat during an encounter. Wouldnt be the first time a game did that

Assuming SE doesn't want to expand support kits to make them worth the gap, or get rid of them, the intended goal would seem to be following: rDPS of damage buffers should exceed selfish DPS, but only in a good party and only if they feed selfish DPS.

Crossing the gap on good/bad play would suggest the best way to do that is making the buffs stronger, but their multiplicative nature makes the math hard. Making buffers pDPS close to selfish pDPS with only small rDPS increases from buffs to close the gap is hard because then it's difficult to ensure the gap is only crossed if you feed a selfish (the only reason they're there).

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Assuming SE doesn't want to expand support kits to make them worth the gap, or get rid of them, the intended goal would seem to be following: rDPS of damage buffers should exceed selfish DPS, but only in a good party and only if they feed selfish DPS.

Crossing the gap on good/bad play would suggest the best way to do that is making the buffs stronger, but their multiplicative nature makes the math hard. Making buffers pDPS close to selfish pDPS with only small rDPS increases from buffs to close the gap is hard because then it's difficult to ensure the gap is only crossed if you feed a selfish (the only reason they're there).

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Hard to obtain balance numbers that close BUT
I did this somewhat simplified math awhile back. It's pertinent so re-linking it: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...88#post5131288

EDIT* also you are right, making the buff numbers even more significant would make balancing this way easier as the ranges could be looser, and even tho I'd like to see buffs contribution become more significant I 100% know that if : "Trick attack Dmg bonus increased from 10 to 20%" was ever seen on a patch note the community would lose its $#!+

BLM is exactly where it should be as a dps focused on nothing but damage.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Ruin 2 is 160 potency vs Ruin 3 at 200. Tell me again what downgraded damage instant cast option Healers get?

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DoTs are instant cast and can be planned around. Astrologians get Lightspeed which essentially gives them a 15 second window of free movement. White Mage has a free heal instantcast gcd every 30s that can be stacked up for a while, as long as it is used within the 90 second window (to prevent hitting a cap), with Afflatus Misery at the end so it always works towards damage in the end, not to mention I don't think a healer is going to cry as much on missing or clipping one GCD as opposed to, I don't know, a dps, whose SOLE purpose there is to do damage. Stop conveniently putting everything in a vacuum of 5 seconds for a moment, and look at the full picture and kits. Healers have plenty of movement options when planned accordingly. Job effectiveness is allowed to vary by skill.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Assuming SE doesn't want to expand support kits to make them worth the gap, or get rid of them, the intended goal would seem to be following: rDPS of damage buffers should exceed selfish DPS, but only in a good party and only if they feed selfish DPS.

Crossing the gap on good/bad play would suggest the best way to do that is making the buffs stronger, but their multiplicative nature makes the math hard. Making buffers pDPS close to selfish pDPS with only small rDPS increases from buffs to close the gap is hard because then it's difficult to ensure the gap is only crossed if you feed a selfish (the only reason they're there).

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Basically this, tbh. All we want is to atleast compete. The rdps max potential is way too far off from the selfishes, to the point where the selfishes don't need us and will perform fine, yet if we don't have them our potential goes even lower. It's not a balance, and one can cry raise or movement all they want but there is virtually no point to bringing some jobs with this much of a gap. If the rdps can be patched up to compete with the selfish jobs by working in tandem with them, there should not be issues. selfishes can dominate pdps while the rest has a scale of who brings more rdps by virtue of being damage only and who has some extra tools to help some things, but never should it be on the scale of what it is now.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

BLM is exactly where it should be as a dps focused on nothing but damage.

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Yeah, usually the argument on our side is "Selfish jobs are where they need to be, but we aren't"...

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Originally Posted by Lauront

BLM is exactly where it should be as a dps focused on nothing but damage.

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It's way too OP, makes the game boring when everyone rerolls BLM just for big D numbers.

That statement by itself is meaningless. "OP" in relation to what and by what metric? Unless you know where the developers want damage (raw dps) to be tuned at, the statement is just a claim pulled out of thin air.

I can see the argument for MNK or DRG being too potent because they are exceeding pures (MNK flat out, DRG compared to SAM) whilst bringing utility to the table. I just don't get what the complaining about BLM is for, other than some people want their job to be in its spot, when they should not be and will not be. SMN and RDM could do with a buff and rework but that's nothing to do with BLM being OP and more to do with problems with those jobs. Because when looking at logs, it's not BLM's performance which sticks out to me as anomalous given its role as a selfish dps.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Assuming SE doesn't want to expand support kits to make them worth the gap, or get rid of them, the intended goal would seem to be following: rDPS of damage buffers should exceed selfish DPS, but only in a good party and only if they feed selfish DPS.

Crossing the gap on good/bad play would suggest the best way to do that is making the buffs stronger, but their multiplicative nature makes the math hard. Making buffers pDPS close to selfish pDPS with only small rDPS increases from buffs to close the gap is hard because then it's difficult to ensure the gap is only crossed if you feed a selfish (the only reason they're there).

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This at least makes sense to me and I agree on that last point. It is indeed tricky to achieve because you have to ensure the selfish dps gets more traction out of (scale better with) the buffs, but that could mean having to tolerate bigger gaps in pDPS, even if rDPS contribution is higher, as well as the fiddlier maths. Still, I think it's a better route to focus on than the latter option, which is just unsatisfying for all concerned and effectively means you're just a selfish DPS with a bit extra and thus it becomes easier for selfish jobs to be edged out by those with utility and vice versa.

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Originally Posted by kajv95

Yeah, usually the argument on our side is "Selfish jobs are where they need to be, but we aren't"...

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Except SAM, it's really too low at the moment and should be at parity with BLM. My point is that the focus is misplaced, as it's not BLM which is the problem (unless the devs think those levels of damage are higher than intended for clearing content and making it too easy, but that's a separate question), but whether the utility certain jobs bring justifies their pDPS levels being where they're at.

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

Not having anything to contribute to the party other than your own personal DPS should come at a price. No worries of where to place utilities you dont have when and where.

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Yes, let's erase those pesky selfish dps from existence, because of perceptions of "difficulty" based on timing/placing utilities... that's fair.

The price paid is having nothing to contribute to a group but damage, meaning your personal performance becomes all the more significant but also that you will not get into a raid if your job is not capable out putting out damage adequate to justify a spot. We can argue over whether some jobs, like RDM, bring enough utility to justify their current pDPS, but perceived difficulty (which doesn't even follow from the concerns you mention) is a non-factor in balancing DPS.

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Originally Posted by geekgirl101

It's way too OP, makes the game boring when everyone rerolls BLM just for big D numbers.

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there are more Dancers and Dragoons then BLMs :P

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Originally Posted by geekgirl101

It's way too OP, makes the game boring when everyone rerolls BLM just for big D numbers.

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I really hope this is sarcasm.

It does really seem like they overbuffed both MNK and DRG when looking at how much their potencies went up by in ShB compared to NIN/SAM.

To a degree it was done to alleviate the loss of the slashing/piercing/blunt debuffs but they had a significant net gain in damage across almost all of their weaponskills while NIN/SAM are scarcely breaking even on a lot of their skills.

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Originally Posted by Dortharl

I really hope this is sarcasm.

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It's just common sense, for same amount of time i can either learn how to play rdm better and get say 500 more dps, or spend it on learning how to play blm at basic level to get 1000 more dps.

I seriously believe nobody actually think the current dps difference between BLM and SMN/RDM or MNK and NIN is fine...

People who say its fine is mostly maining the OP side of the job...

That aside SE need to decide the power balance between group melee, caster and ranged first then the balance inside the said group, right now caster is in the top 2 and bottom 3 of all dps which make it extremely unbalance...