Please make Blue Mage a normal job

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Originally Posted by Physic

most of your implications are not implied at all by the quotes i linked, they may or may not be true, butnothing in the quotes suggest them.

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You are missing the point once again and demonstrating that you don't have an actual understanding of the situation.
The ABC was not a list of consequent events, they were mutually exclusive scenarios that are happening right now that would make what we're saying either correct or incorrect. Reached not because this is what they directly told us but because upon further investigation this is what's going on behind the scenes after looking at ALL they've said, history and parallel situations, not just 1 interview.
Ion from Blizzard is in Yoshida's exact same position and talks similarly, except he's slightly better at veering off and damage control, but in the end offers the same poor excuses debunked in a few moments by people who actually care to look into the issue further without stopping at mere face value.

Also I asked you to answer the question I posed, to answer in sincerity, and that wasn't the question I asked. So you're either being disingenuous or what can I take from this?
It was set up in such manner because it is pertinent to what Yoshi-P and you talked about, and what you talked about was based on shaky foundations that crumble the second you actually put that very logic up for scrutiny.
Much like any argument coming from the side of balance.

Realise that people who didn't care are a 0. They wouldn't have cared whether it was a Blue Mage or a Dancer, they wouldn't have cared whether it was another dungeon or what have you.
The ones that are going to be a +1 or -1 are going to be the people who actually do care. The people who would take a problem with X thing being done badly or wishing for Y to make an appearance.
And thus far, it looks like it's more of a - than a +.

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

You are missing the point once again and demonstrating that you don't have an actual understanding of the situation.
The ABC was not a list of consequent events, they were mutually exclusive scenarios that are happening right now that would make what we're saying either correct or incorrect. Reached not because this is what they directly told us but because upon further investigation this is what's going on behind the scenes after looking at ALL they've said, history and parallel situations, not just 1 interview.
Ion from Blizzard is in Yoshida's exact same position and talks similarly, except he's slightly better at veering off and damage control, but in the end offers the same poor excuses debunked in a few moments by people who actually care to look into the issue further without stopping at mere face value.

Also I asked you to answer the question I posed, to answer in sincerity, and that wasn't the question I asked. So you're either being disingenuous or what can I take from this?
It was set up in such manner because it is pertinent to what Yoshi-P and you talked about, and what you talked about was based on shaky foundations that crumble the second you actually put that very logic up for scrutiny.
Much like any argument coming from the side of balance.

Realise that people who didn't care are a 0. They wouldn't have cared whether it was a Blue Mage or a Dancer, they wouldn't have cared whether it was another dungeon or what have you.
The ones that are going to be a +1 or -1 are going to be the people who actually do care. The people who would take a problem with X thing being done badly or wishing for Y to make an appearance.
And thus far, it looks like it's more of a - than a +.

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my answer to the question was direct, some people would have liked it, and some wouldnt.

As for your concept that yoshida accidently made a class he expected to solo everything into a class that doesnt solo everything. That is not a logical premise. Development of a new class takes months, if not a year. There is no way they didnt know for a long time what the design of blu mage would be. Which makes it more likely, yoshida concept of a solo job, and your concept is different.

Yoshida most likely looked at its ability to solo to 50, solo the majority of skills, and the fact that carnivale, its biggest challenge was solo, and said this is a relatively solo job. Which is fair perspective to have. I get that some people thought it meant you would never have to play with another player, but that clearly wasnt the intent, or they could have thrown solo versions of trials in the carnivale.


point is, it is highly unlikely blue was ever meant to be a comepletely solo job. Its likely they considered it a relatively solo job, compared to other jobs. And they have specific solo content built for that job.

Physic you still didn't answer the question. Are you having trouble reading?

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Taking into account that people who liked BLU have been asking for this job to be made available for a long time in FFXIV.
Would, the people who actually cared about BLU, have been upset at this job NOT being made into a "limited job" because anything else would not have respected the purported "enjoyment" they could get from the job?

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I already offered the answer because there is one element that is taken for granted by Yoshida, and you as well apparently, that by pure logic cannot be held up and stands at the core of what we're talking about. Which means if that element collapses, so does the rest of the structure. There exists a correct answer and it's not the one you have given, since your response is not answering the question at hand.

If you care to pay attention, I didn't say it was an accident, far from it and yet you still think that was the case. It's the way it's been MARKETED. I told you already, if one wanted to give a direct, deprived of any uncertainty or ambiguity, without any second thought of what was being declared, then that kind of language would NOT have been used. Is it really that hard to give a clear NO?

SE didn't look at the skills, they created the skills and the job. Which means that it could have gone either way, it did not have to be only 1 manner. You've been told already that BLU is not a static figure, there is just one thing that distinguishes it from other classes, and that is the acquisition of skills from monsters with the ability to use X skills for itself with Blue Magic. This entire charade is the metaphorical representation of digging your own grave.

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

Physic you still didn't answer the question. Are you having trouble reading?



I already offered the answer because there is one element that is taken for granted by Yoshida, and you as well apparently, that by pure logic cannot be held up and stands at the core of what we're talking about.

If you care to pay attention, I didn't say it was an accident, far from it and yet you still think that was the case. It's the way it's been MARKETED. I told you already, if one wanted to give a direct, deprived of any uncertainty or ambiguity, without any second thought of what was being declared, then that kind of language would NOT have been used. Is it really that hard to give a clear NO?

SE didn't look at the skills, they created the skills and the job. Which means that it could have gone either way, it did not have to be only 1 manner. You've been told already that BLU is not a static figure, there is just one thing that distinguishes it from other classes, and that is the acquisition of skills from monsters with the ability to use X skills for itself with Blue Magic. This entire charade is the metaphorical representation of digging your own grave.

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i answered yor question.
you said would people who wanted blue have been mad if it wasnt a limited job.

the answer is some would and some wouldnt. Even though limited jobs did not exist, there already exists groups of people who do not like job identity being sacrificed to fit into the ffxiv framework.

you see this with many responses to smn, brd, rdm. Limited jobs were not created from nothing, they are an answer to the question, what do we do when a jobs concept/identity does not mesh with standard combat/duty/job design.

so once again, some people would have liked it, and some wouldnt. Some people would be highly annoyed if blue didnt hunt their skills, or started out level 50 with majority of its skills. And would have been annoyed if it didnt have job spell staples like level 5s, multiple elemental attacks, white wind, mighty guard, death, etc.


As for marketing, you really are overstating this,

this is an excerpt from an article november, close to the blu reveal.

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"The day after the Shadowbringers reveal Yoshida gave more detailed on what a “limited job” means. Essentially it means the Blue Mage is intended for players that want to play solo, and is less suited for party-based gameplay. That means that the Blue Mage-exclusive content, The Masked Carnivale will only be available for solo layers in this job"

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"So what is a limited job? Yoshida explained that it’s based on one of the fundamental notions of Blue Mage, that it’s a job without balance. Part of the fun of the job is using powerful techniques that wreck game balance. The developers didn’t want people walking into a high-end raid and using Level 5 Death to kill the bosses instantly; at the same time, you don’t want to get a Blue Mage queued up with you who hasn’t learned necessary abilities at a given level. Hence Yoshida historically saying that the job is difficult to adapt.

How do you do that while maintaining party balance? A solution was finally found: you don’t. You let the job be limited, designed for solo play rather than parties. Blue Mage cannot queue up for duty roulettes, any duty requiring matchmaking, PvP matches, Deep Dungeon content, or even certain other content that may not yet be revealed. You can enter instances with pre-formed parties, however.

If this sounds, well, limited… that’s by design. But Yoshida stressed that the point here is that there’s fun stuff to do with Blue Mage and you get to have fun with the job, first and foremost. Rather than making it not feel like Blue Mage, it feels like it should, and it opens the door for other fun limited jobs that may not fit into the game’s role-based party structure. He brought up Beastmaster and Puppetmaster as specific examples, to a chorus of cheers before noting that he was speaking hypothetically at this time."

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Is this innaccurate to what we got? he didnt say it has no party play, simply that it is less suited to party play, this implies it does in fact have party play. Also i would point out, very few of the skills require a party. He also elaborated why they call it more solo, the masked carnivale. you can say the marketing should have been more explicit, but this is honestly pretty accurate.

also note, these comments were made at the blue reveal and line up with what he said later, about the purpose of limited jobs being for concepts that dont fit in normal ffxiv framework. He isnt back pedaling. People may have misunderstood, but that was clearly not because they heavily marketed it differently. It plays almost exactly like they said in november.

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Originally Posted by Physic

i answered yor question.
you said would people who wanted blue have been mad if it wasnt a limited job.

the answer is some would and some wouldnt. Even though limited jobs did not exist, there already exists groups of people who do not like job identity being sacrificed to fit into the ffxiv framework.

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In a world where the “limited job” system did not exist.
Do you truly think that people would be feeling the loss of something that never existed to begin with?

This was the obvious point that you so unremarkably missed. I'm just genuinely asking myself how you could miss the premise and logical process when it was spelt out for you so plainly.

It is physically impossible when the concept itself of a "limited job" did not exist. And Yoshi-P's statement was so broad that it took enjoyment as reliant on this one element, when people would have enjoyed BLU arguably more than they do now had the job been introduced as a normal class FOR STARTERS.

So with this information we can see that Yoshi-P's claims are fallacious and demonstrably wrong, OR he’s lying.
And if he is lying, then one must ask the question, why is he lying. What’s the purpose behind it.

Because if he’s lying, it means the rest is a lie too, since each block of what he’s saying relies on one another, then the entire structure comes crushing down and one can only wonder what exactly they’re attempting to cover.

The answer was already given by Zsplash, and that BLU is just nothing more than a cheap piece of content. And with this realisation, comes a whole other level of consequences, if this is indeed the answer.

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

In a world where the “limited job” system did not exist.
Do you truly think that people would be feeling the loss of something that never existed to begin with?

This was the obvious point that you so unremarkably missed. I'm just genuinely asking myself how you could miss the premise and logical process when it was spelt out for you so plainly.

It is physically impossible when the concept itself of a "limited job" did not exist. And Yoshi-P's statement was so broad that it took enjoyment as reliant on this one element, when people would have enjoyed BLU arguably more than they do now had the job been introduced as a normal class FOR STARTERS.

So with this information we can see that Yoshi-P's claims are fallacious and demonstrably wrong, OR he’s lying.
And if he is lying, then one must ask the question, why is he lying. What’s the purpose behind it.

Because if he’s lying, it means the rest is a lie too, since each block of what he’s saying relies on one another, then the entire structure comes crushing down and one can only wonder what exactly they’re attempting to cover.

The answer was already given by Zsplash, and that BLU is just nothing more than a cheap piece of content. And with this realisation, come a whole other level of consequences, if this is indeed the answer.

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yes, people can miss something that does not exist, invention doesnt come from nothing it comes from needs/desires.

i already told you, before blue mage, they had contraversy around jobs not fitting the spirit of their FF design. bard, being primarily a dps, summoner not having smns with giant OP Skills. red mages not being jacks of all trades.

so yes, some people would have been salty if blu mage was a normal job, because being a normal job means it would have had to be a different type of blue mage.

let me break down the logic here.

can people be upset, they didnt get something that doesnt currently exist? yes. I am an artist, i have done custom work, it is extremely common. In fact, you and many others are upset they didnt get something which never existed. You wanted a blue mage that fit into ffxiv combat/job/design framework. This thing you wanted has never existed, no previous iteration of blue mage was like what you want. No current implemtation matches it. and yet you are upset. You are upset because you percieve your potential enjoyment would be greater if the design was different, likewise there would have been people complaining about a ffxiv ready bluemage and the design sacrifices that would be made to fit that space.


and what exactly is the lie here? I am feeling like you dont really get nuance. There is no lie or fallacious statement. blue is a primarily solo job. If i say i am a tall person, that doesnt mean i am the tallest person in existence. It means i am comparitively tall. Blue is the most solo job we have seen thus far. It can solo to max level. it can obtain 40/49 skills solo, and 44/49 skills duo. it has recurring content, with rewards that can only be done solo.

the dude is giving one paragraph explanations, there is going to be some things that are not fully elaborated.

Also anesteria, you want to believe blue mage is some bargain basement content. That is unlikely, what about blue mage implemntation is cheaper than any other job? it has more skills, it has content made just for it. It doesnt need to be balanced against other jobs, which saves time, but it did need whole new mechanics and systems to support it, so i think thst is offset. Also, by now, i dont think balancing is as hard. they already figured in actions per minute, max dps etc. Blue mage was probably more work than other jobs, because its pipeline does not exist, and must be created as they go.

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Originally Posted by Physic

yes, people can miss something that does not exist, invention doesnt come from nothing it comes from needs/desires.

i already told you, before blue mage, they had contraversy around jobs not fitting the spirit of their FF design. bard, being primarily a dps, summoner not having smns with giant OP Skills. red mages not being jacks of all trades..

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No they can't Physic. Unless they're time travelers, it would be impossible. The concept of "limited job" didn't exist until they created it, it is not something that people already knew that it was called "limited job" that it would have BLU as its first class along with everything down to a tee that was to come with it. And that's not even the entirety of the issue, because Yoshida's statements IMPLY that it could not have been any other way when he deems the "limited job" as the only thing that would allow such enjoyment when they know they could have created something that was well within their potential to do that had nothing to do with a "limited job" system.

Unlike the Blue Mage, this was created in a vacuum. So they're not comparable, as I said earlier, people wouldn't be complaining about BLU's existence, as they do with the "limited job" system. BLU is an established job that has worked within its own games according to the game's own gameplay, without necessitating any "limited job" that didn't even exist at the time, FFXI included and the most eclatant example being a MMORPG. Yours, and Yoshida's position are indefensible, you are grasping at straws.

"the dude" is the Director, he's not random low-level employee number 3901, he's supposed to have a certain capability. Ion is the same as him, he's there to put on the face and give the best pr responses and try to swivel out of tough questions because any of them would have to show commitment or admit they're wrong, and they need to cover their tracks so that they can claim "Ah but we did NOT EXPLICITLY say that X was our objective/that Y was how things were going to pan out".

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

My bad, i had it in my head that mind blast also had a 1 second cast time, so yeah fire agnon is the second best weaving tool. All other points still stand about abilities though, you still only need 1 of each kind out of the mass of BLU abilities to be optimal rendering the other abilities of same potency/cast time pointless

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So rewind back, i just went in game and checked, mind blast IS a 1 second cast time, making it a superior weaving tool to fire agnon due to dealing magic damage, so all my previous points still stands. Yes fire agnon has more range, but you want to be in melee range to weave anyway due to peculiar light.

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

No they can't Physic. ....

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let me try to make it more mathematical.

according to Yoshida, in november


Limited Job= Job whose design or concept does not mesh with normal ffxiv job/class/role/combat design.



so, using the logical law of substitution

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Substitution is a fundamental concept in logic. A substitution is a syntactic transformation on formal expressions. To apply a substitution to an expression means to consistently replace its variable, or placeholder, symbols by other expressions. The resulting expression is called a substitution instance, or short instance, of the original expression.

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Would people have been upset if Blue mage was not a limited Job.


subsititute


would people have been upset if Blue mage was not a Job whose design or concept does not mesh with normal ffxiv job/class/role/combat design.

And the answer is yes, because we have ALREADY seen people mad that existing jobs were changed to fit the overall framework of FFXIV design.




now, you personally believe Yoshida is incorrect, and blue mage can be put into a ffxiv framework with no appreciable loss. OR you believe that such loss would be acceptable based on what sacrifices might be made the other way. That is a fair opinion to have. But it is an opinion, not a logical truism, or universally accepted concept.


My entire beef with your opinion, is you seem to not understand it is an opinion, it is not a fact, the things you state as facts are not facts, they are guesses, suppositions, hopes, and fears.


Your premise is Yoshida willfully sought to keep an awesome perfect ffxiv blue mage concept from players. Why? what would he gain by doing so? Is it possible that he believed that this iteration of blue mage was truer to what blue mage is about? Which is more likely.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

So rewind back, i just went in game and checked, mind blast IS a 1 second cast time, making it a superior weaving tool to fire agnon due to dealing magic damage, so all my previous points still stands. Yes fire agnon has more range, but you want to be in melee range to weave anyway due to peculiar light.

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interesting but the difference between a melee skill and ranged skill is not arbitrary. Also, not every rotation will involve peculiar light since its cool down is 60 seconds. Also i believe fire angon is considered magic damage, ill check in a second.


nope you are are right it doesnt get the benefit from peculiar light.

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Originally Posted by Physic

interesting but the difference between a melee skill and ranged skill is not arbitrary. Also, not every rotation will involve peculiar light since its cool down is 60 seconds. Also i believe fire angon is considered magic damage, ill check in a second.

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Fire Agnon is physical. ALL Blu rotations will revolve around peculiar light as long as their strongest skills are magical. You're right, its not arbitrary, but the design of BLU ATM is geared around close to mid range combat. Mind Blast is THE best magical weaving skill, with sharpened knife only being a better option when slashing debuff is up, and is even closer range than mind blast.

EDIT: Im not sure what you mean about the rotation not revolving around Pec light because its 60s when BLU's weaving is done in 30 second intervals, that'd be like saying ninjas rotation doesn't revolve around trick attack. Only thing I can think of is you don't quite understand what a rotation is

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Originally Posted by Physic

let me try to make it more mathematical.

according to Yoshida, in november

Limited Job= Job whose design or concept does not mesh with normal ffxiv job/class/role/combat design. .

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That is all manners of wrong Physic. The "limited job" did not exist before it was actually invented. Did helicopters on Earth exist before they were invented?

And it's still no, because people can be mad at how things were introduced but they didn't envision the SYSTEM Square Enix was going to put into place. Which means they could complain about the current image, but the automatic response wasn't "This must then be turned into a limited job" BEFORE limited jobs existed in the game. The changes demanded would still NOT NECESSITATE a "limited job" system to acquiesce to the demands.

It's this faulty pillar of "limited job" and what comes with it that is still perpetuated when it has no reason to exist, and it doesn't take much to make it crumble.

And no, I don't think Yoshida wanted to withhold it the way you mean it. And as I said, regarding the usage of BLU IT'S LIKELY one of the options. That's what reading comprehension is, that's what I mean when I talk about Yoshida's responses in interviews. It is something everyone uses for no other reasons than just not being committed. You can look at interviews from high-profile managers in pretty much any industry, they're all purposefully and carefully choosing their words, Ion and Yoshi-P do the same. Because if they then personally, consistently fail as they try to justify the BUSINESS's decisions, then their credibility takes a hit, and what does it mean for their careers?

Even then, the points I've committed to are the dismissal of SE's excuses, and the necessity to uphold the "limited job" system, because they're based on faulty logic and objectives.
I am not 100% certain what their aim is/was, but I know for a fact, like others in this thread, that what they're advertising is not really what they're trying to sell us. Thus, everything that comes after is nothing more than a series of fabrications.

The possibilities I presented earlier are potential scenarios that come as a result of certain decisions. What you're suggesting is that this decision came as a result of "mismanagement" (option A), which again I do not believe to be the case because SE should have learned from 1.0 to not release awfully incomplete content.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Fire Agnon is physical. ALL Blu rotations will revolve around peculiar light as long as their strongest skills are magical. You're right, its not arbitrary, but the design of BLU ATM is geared around close to mid range combat. Mind Blast is THE best magical weaving skill, with sharpened knife only being a better option when slashing debuff is up, and is even closer range than mind blast.

EDIT: Im not sure what you mean about the rotation not revolving around Pec light because its 60s when BLU's weaving is done in 30 second intervals, that'd be like saying ninjas rotation doesn't revolve around trick attack. Only thing I can think of is you don't quite understand what a rotation is

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Pure physical BLU will be the new meta.

Limited jobs are now a thing, and as such I personally wish for them to expand upon the concept. Hardly any concept is flawless out the gate needs time to mature and be adjusted, I eagerly look forward to seeing what they do with the concept in the future. Wishing for them to keep a system they have put in place and expand upon it is not wrong despite the original intentions. It is fair to feel slighted, the way the handled the presentation left much to be desired. I admit the language they used during the reveal could be seen as misleading. Though I will I just viewed it as an exaggeration to build up hype I never expected it to be a pure solo everything job, would have been neat if it had the possibility to do such. Nevertheless, as it stands BLU is still the most solo capable job.

What should we do about those that enjoy the current implementation and do not agree SE has the creative mindset or desire to make the job retain both aspects that players enjoy? Not every form of content in the game has to be for everyone, just as not every rework has to be something everyone enjoys. If they did find the need to rework BLU and make it into a full job and it was not something I enjoyed I would simply not play it. Just as many of done here when they made it a limited job.

I have no particular issue with BLU being a limited job, but I think SE executed the idea poorly. Limited jobs still, at the end of the day, need a strong reason to keep people coming back to them - and Masked Carnivale isn't sufficient for this.

What I'd have liked to see from a limited BLU is this: cap at 60, not 70. Instead of getting Roulette content, it's a low-man specialist: a job that's as effective at 60 as a normal level 70, and able to spec themselves to whatever role they'd like. Their niche would be old EX Primal farming, hunting for missing Orchestrion rolls, catching up on old Raids. It runs 10 levels behind standard jobs, and it would be a job that people could level up so they could play effectively with friends in low-man content without needing to worry about who's the tank / who's the healer / etc.

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All this to say, I'm quite tired of seeing suggestions floating around that SE should end the practice of limited jobs because of BLU and how it's been developed. There's nothing wrong with limited jobs. The primary issue - as with Eureka / Diadem / a host of other pieces of content - is with the execution. That's what we should be calling out and providing suggestions on, in my estimation.

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

I have no particular issue with BLU being a limited job, but I think SE executed the idea poorly. Limited jobs still, at the end of the day, need a strong reason to keep people coming back to them - and Masked Carnivale isn't sufficient for this.

What I'd have liked to see from a limited BLU is this: cap at 60, not 70. Instead of getting Roulette content, it's a low-man specialist: a job that's as effective at 60 as a normal level 70, and able to spec themselves to whatever role they'd like. Their niche would be old EX Primal farming, hunting for missing Orchestrion rolls, catching up on old Raids. It runs 10 levels behind standard jobs, and it would be a job that people could level up so they could play effectively with friends in low-man content without needing to worry about who's the tank / who's the healer / etc.

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All this to say, I'm quite tired of seeing suggestions floating around that SE should end the practice of limited jobs because of BLU and how it's been developed. There's nothing wrong with limited jobs. The primary issue - as with Eureka / Diadem / a host of other pieces of content - is with the execution. That's what we should be calling out and providing suggestions on, in my estimation.

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Adding to this, despite my vehement arguements against limited BLU, im not actually against the concept of limited jobs, provided they do something that physically could not be done and interact fundamentally differently. For example if PUP was added and it literally went through dungeons like it was lord of Verminion. The issue with BLU is it has no reason to be limited and plays just like any other job

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Originally Posted by Lacan

well, I'm having fun with it. :v I mean, isn't that the most important thing? Maybe you should give it a try before you write it off completely.

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I did. I don't give up on things very easily. I got it to 50, got all the primal spells, finished the Masked Carnival. Each step more depressing than the last.

Oddly enough, it seems to me from my own anecdotal observations that the ones praising this implementation of Blue Mage tend to be the ones who haven't attempted to actually engage with it.

While I wish to see them expand on the concept of limited jobs, I do feel a major issue with BLU is not the limited job concept but the lack of content associated with it. Been said if they could just keep the current Implementation of BLU and expand on those Elements while not compromising on the ability pool and make it possible to remove the limitations. That would be awesome but SE will never do that.

Either way I do hope they add more content for BLU and with time let them take part in other forms of content. Deep dungeons would be fun as BLU. I understand the theory behind the limitations but I am excited about the level 60 cap increase and the spells it will come with.

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

I did. I don't give up on things very easily. I got it to 50, got all the primal spells, finished the Masked Carnival. Each step more depressing than the last.

Oddly enough, it seems to me from my own anecdotal observations that the ones praising this implementation of Blue Mage tend to be the ones who haven't attempted to actually engage with it.

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If I may, I wanted to ask if you and ReiMakoto, have in mind a specfic plan for how BLU could be fixed or redesigned even.

I personally do have a general idea on how it could turn out, but I honestly don't mind as long as I can experience the story, do current content with other people and side content like potd or Eureka even, as BLU. As long as it's not a limited job.

And on a different note for ReiMakoto.

I think that limited jobs wouldn't be such a bad idea if they revisited what the system means. By becoming a "limited job for a limited time" kind of deal.

What I suggested earlier, for the "limited job" system to be a way to test classes that SE might have "trouble" with. IF for them it truly is a problem with balance (which I highly doubt and don't agree with) then using this system to playtest the various classes and letting the players report feedback so that they have a better understanding on what they could do better to make these jobs completely functional, following what the player wants, by releasing them as normal jobs at a later date, may be a good idea to catch 2 birds with 1 stone. Its function akin to a PTR but with classes in mind, in order to help polish a class that SE doesn't want to test themselves.

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

If I may, I wanted to ask if you and ReiMakoto, have in mind a specfic plan for how BLU could be fixed or redesigned even.

I personally do have a general idea on how it could turn out, but I honestly don't mind as long as I can experience the story, do current content with other people and side content like potd or Eureka even, as BLU. As long as it's not a limited job.

And on a different note for ReiMakoto.

I think that limited jobs wouldn't be such a bad idea if they revisited what the system means. By becoming a "limited job for a limited time" kind of deal.

What I suggested earlier, for the "limited job" system to be a way to test classes that SE might have "trouble" with. IF for them it truly is a problem with balance (which I highly doubt and don't agree with) then using this system to playtest the various classes and letting the players report feedback so that they have a better understanding on what they could do better to make these jobs completely functional, following what the player wants, by releasing them as normal jobs at a later date, may be a good idea to catch 2 birds with 1 stone. Its function akin to a PTR but with classes in mind, in order to help polish a class that SE doesn't want to test themselves.

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they arent doing it because its hard to balance, they are doing it because balancing it and making it fit in to a ffxiv framework kills the spirit, and entertainment of the job.


its jobs they either dont want to balance, or have mechanics that dont fit.



In the case of blue mage,

its skill aquisition,

its tank and healer abilities,

and its weird or powerful abilities, like death, tail screw, petrify, peculiar light self destruct, final sting, rams voice, diamondback, etc that would probably warp high end metas.


basically all i am saying is its not about testing, its about not wanting to make the job fit in to norms

The only ability that an argument can be made for is Peculiar Light which can be done either by giving it a longer cooldown since it has three times the potency of Contagion at nearly half the duration or lower it to be an eight second quasi AOE Contagion.

Literally nothing else matters because anyone running BLU in high end content won't use it.

Not sure if overall balance the primary reason behind the limited job concept or if it was class identity. Which I still do not understand why BLU was the job Yoshi-P made the choice to put their foot down for class identity. I think that is why many who are in favor of the limited job concept are against making it a standard job, not because it would not be possible to make an unique experience, but more so has to deal with the ridged framework the developers seem to feel each job has to fit neatly in. Pretty sure many would jump on the idea to take current BLU into any content and would gladly take minor adjustments to our skill set. Problem is the general idea of fitting neatly into a certain role would place a self imposed restriction on the creative aspect of jobs. The limited job concept allows for a less restrictive approach to class design.

Current BLU is far from perfect, but with time as we get more levels and hopefully the team feels more comfortable with type of abilities we can learn and the effects the come with could in theory lead to some interesting personalized encounters. Current BLU is having a hard time finding footing, but hardly any content is perfect out the gate. People may not like it now, but maybe with time it might evolve into something that you could enjoy. I do not think it is fair how some wish to kill the concept of limited jobs or BLU simply because the first foray into the concept did not have a lasting appeal and could have been handled better.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

The only ability that an argument can be made for is Peculiar Light which can be done either by giving it a longer cooldown since it has three times the potency of Contagion at nearly half the duration or lower it to be an eight second quasi AOE Contagion.

Literally nothing else matters because anyone running BLU in high end content won't use it.

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they matter for content. self destruct combo is large damage and can phase monsters easily. 4800 potency equivalence. diamondback can ignore killer skills. rams voice can freeze monsters. Also note, most boss summons are not immune to death, freeze, etc.


white wind can heal full HP of the raid, easily.



Also you are too focused on just high end raid balance, they also worry about dungeon/duty balance. And i can tell you many of their skills are extremely powerful in regular dungeons.

Dying is already a DPS loss, killing yourself is still a DPS loss even if you blow yourself because weakness is a thing. Diamondback is also a DPS loss and wouldn't see use outside of all BLU meme runs or solo play. Rams Voice is just a better Holy. Relying on RNG to burn adds is bad because for every unsuccessful cast is a GCD that could've gone towards something that actually does damage and unless the boss spawns two or more adds, it's better to use a not AOE skill.

White Wind does literally no such thing and as I've said before, its effectiveness is mitigated by any raid wide damage and straight up invalidated by anything that brings people down to critical, something no healer has to worry about.

Jobs are made with the ability to clear endgame content in mind. For you, that probably extends to just Expert Roulette and as I've said before dungeons are the most casual content the game has to offer besides AFKing in Limsa and ERP, who cares? Let a job be absolutely king of dungeons, BLM and SMN already do that already, nothing wrong with a third job.

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

If I may, I wanted to ask if you and ReiMakoto, have in mind a specfic plan for how BLU could be fixed or redesigned even.

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I've mentioned my ideas before in prior topics closer to Blue Mage's release, I've taken quite a mental break from FFXIV overall (along with my literal break) so it's not as close to recall as before, but my thoughts were basically this:
-Isolate "problem" skills from ones that are integral to the job and are already perfectly balanced (example being Ram's Voice for the former, Off-Guard/Bristle for the latter)
-Allow these "problem" skills into unsynced and overworld content, as well as the Masked Carnivale where they can be appropriately abusable, but disallow them in queued stuff.
-Adjust the very few integral skills that might be a little oddly tuned for parties, such as White Wind and Peculiar Light. I read a cool idea that White Wind could be divided by number of players affected, and Peculiar Light need only be an Embolden type disparity where the 30% is for the Blue Mage only, other party members get 10~15% vulnerability up. Not really...drastic adjustments at all. Most of the kit really seems like it was intended to be a fully usable job recently before some executive order befell the Blue Mage team.

Ta~da. Blue Mage retains its unique spell learning mechanic and solo leveling experience, while it ends up having a ton of abusable bag of tricks type spells one can use to circumvent FATEs and old content crap as well as unique stuff for...whatever puzzles they design for the Masked Carnivale (Loom?). The spells that are still appropriately balanced will not go to waste however and will allow Blue Mage to feel like a full experience that can be used alongside the rest of the game. And right now, that's actually more abilities than not, by far. I imagine in the future when it hits max level this list could look more like half/half, with Blue Mages having 3x the amount of "party"-able skills as other jobs. This means that it can freely choose the kinds of ranges/cast times per fight of certain potencies and things to fit into Peculiar Light windows or whatever other bursty mechanical lynchpin skills they get. Oh boy...almost like...a fun unique caster playstyle? (Irony here is the "limited" aspect of the job actually hampers this creative part, Blue Mages COULD have the ability to differ their loadout per fight, but right now it's just picking the dumbest abusable thing to spam in crap that doesn't matter one bit)

Still technically a "limited" job, no? In this case though, the limitations are a nuance that players need be aware of before they decide to make it their full time class, but they can still experience (most) of the game with it. Any other worries and considerations, like if players will accept newbie, undeveloped Blue Mages is a matter of player trust that we should be letting the community work out instead of placing arbitrary restrictions such that the opportunity never arises. Another one off the top of my head that Yoshi P seemed worried about for some reason is World Firsts for Blue Mages after a level cap increase...which I frankly don't understand, but treating it as a legitimate concern for the sake of argument, one should consider Blue Mage's spell learning mechanic to BE their solo/limited/leveling experience, since they level so quickly normally in the overworld. While other jobs grind out dungeons and do their quests, Blue Mages have to concern themselves with learning the right spells, which would be ideally...a less BS process in the future than the Atma Primal ones that have been unanimously panned in learning implementation.

Everybody bloody wins and it boggles my mind that people don't consider this an ideal route and are digging in their heels to stay with something practically unusable.

P.S. I don't personally see how this ends up being such an impossible drain on resources that we shouldn't even bother bringing it up. That argument makes no sense to me. It's some flag stuff and skill adjustments not unlike you might see in a hotfix. I get that wanting it to be 80 with the rest of the jobs like now-ish would be a bit of a tall order, but lets help it get there in the future appropriately so it's an awesome growth for the job instead of resigning to the worst. Also give Blue Mage a damn limit break. And Squadron stuff.

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

If I may, I wanted to ask if you and ReiMakoto, have in mind a specfic plan for how BLU could be fixed or redesigned even.

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So my plan to fix BLU is simple, the duty set.

When you reach level 50 you unlock a job quest to unlock the "Duty Set", which you can undertake if you learn a set of pre-requisite skills. All skills in this list would have 100% learn rate.

Upon completing the quest the "Duty Set" is selectable from the BLU spellbook, which is a set of abilities picked by the devs as the balanced set of abilities, and are all arranged with level requirements as to allow BLU not to be too OP when sync'd. I already know what skills I'd include in the level 50 list, basically none of the gimmick skills.

From the point on where the "Duty Set" is unlocked, BLU is allowed to level past 50 up to current cap, and every 2 levels theres a new ability in the "Duty Set" which you would have to go and learn (with 100% learn rate) or a new trait. When BLU is unlocked, I'd have them raise the level cap to current maximum and add all the duty set abilities needed for these levels. Then later they can go back and add more limited abilities as part of their content cycle with more masked carnival.

This would lead to cases where say you'd have a level 66 BLU in your party who hadn't learned their level 62 skill. I say thats fine, people in the DF are usually bad anyway, so if someone isn't bothered to go learn their skills, they're unlikely to be contributing that much to the party anyway.

This Way people who like limited jobs (for whatever reason) keep their silly limited class that can run and get carried through old content like now, and do masked carnival, and those of us who want BLU as a class to main get that, and keep "Blu's Identity"

Now for some wild wishes and such

Make BLU revolve around Rapid 1 sec cast gcds and ogcd's in single target, I think it would be engaging and different

Make their Job gauge the "Doom Gauge" I pitched a few pages back:

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Call it something like the "Doom Gauge" or something, and have it fill up every time you cast a spell. Change all of the rng skills (Doom, Tail Screw, Missle) to OGCDs with cast times that cost "Doom Gauge" to cast, with Tail Screw and Doom with CD as well. Then Make is so when you cast these skills and they fail they do potency instead, Missle doing the weakest potency at the weakest doom gauge cost and no CD, and have Tail Screw and Doom share a cooldown, with Tailscrew doing a fixed potency (250 or something if it fails) and have Doom have a scaling potency based on the health remaining on the enemy, (I.E when the boss is 50% or lower it'll be better to use doom over screw). That way you keep the chance of these skills working on enemies in dungeons that are weak to them, but you naturally nerf the frequency at which it happens, so it just becomes a cool moment if it does happen. Doom would also add some synergy in the BLU kit as it would get buffed by bristle if the enemy was on low enough health.

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Add another job gauge around elemental weaknesses. My idea was casting single target skills of a certain element has a chance to "stick" that element to an enemy, then using an AOE skill "exploits" that element. For example casting water cannon has the chance to "stick" water to the enemy, then using shock strike exploits that water, dealing more damage and resetting the weakness

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Dying is already a DPS loss, killing yourself is still a DPS loss even if you blow yourself because weakness is a thing. Diamondback is also a DPS loss and wouldn't see use outside of all BLU meme runs or solo play. Rams Voice is just a better Holy. Relying on RNG to burn adds is bad because for every unsuccessful cast is a GCD that could've gone towards something that actually does damage and unless the boss spawns two or more adds, it's better to use a not AOE skill.

White Wind does literally no such thing and as I've said before, its effectiveness is mitigated by any raid wide damage and straight up invalidated by anything that brings people down to critical, something no healer has to worry about.

Jobs are made with the ability to clear endgame content in mind. For you, that probably extends to just Expert Roulette and as I've said before dungeons are the most casual content the game has to offer besides AFKing in Limsa and ERP, who cares? Let a job be absolutely king of dungeons, BLM and SMN already do that already, nothing wrong with a third job.

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blowing yourself up is not a dps loss depending when you blow yourself up. you can blow yourself up at the beginning and return before the 10 second entry time, and at the end. Also diamondback is not dps loss if its in times when you couldnt do dps, like many large damage phases. Also, blu mage is not like other classes that just focus on dps.


and as much as you personally may not care what happens in dungeons and outside of 8 man savage raids, you can bet that ffxiv developers care, keep in mind savage raids are only done by a small part of the community. Game balance and class design are never going to ignore all the other group content in the game.

Thank you Rei and Valdegarde for your suggestions, I think they're both good.

In regards to the first part Valdegarde, while playing I got a similar feeling too regarding the available skills. The skills themselves are not as outrageous as some paint them to be, and BLU does not need to be reworked from the ground up to be made into a full job at all.
So if it really came down to a last minute change, which I wouldn't be surprised about, what they're telling us then indeed becomes very... sketchy. But this is also why I intended to still bring attention to BLU and for pushing a revision on the class. I don't think that they could call the current BLU a success if people played it for 1 week and never touched it again, I would honestly fail to see how that is a success IF they were sincere. Whether people liked the bit or not, it was still something that the vast majority eventually ignored completely, as it seems to be the case since I barely saw ANY BLU around and people reporting their experience.

Another reason why I postulated that this might just be their way of attempting to understand the reaction from people to see what they can do next. Thus, demonstrating my discontent.

And yes, I agree that being a more "flexible" DPS would definitely be something that actually DOES add another layer of depth to BLU, instead of detracting from it. Even in other MMOs changing skills through various means, is something classes with or without a trinity system can do successfully.

When it comes to both of your visions in regards to the segregation of the "limited" experience and the rest of the game, it definitely is conceptually possible. GW2 does it by having a distinct set of traits and effects on the abilities depending on whether you're playing in PvE, PvP or WvW. I can definitely see BLU benefit from this to please both crowds. Though I still have my reservations on the "limited job" system as is.

So I think the Duty Set is a pretty good idea, and one that they can definitely implement even "now". What I mean is that they've given us a 1-50 experience that seems to be the basis for what's to come, which means that they're still in time to make changes with a 1 year time frame, willing be.
When it comes to OHKO spells, they've always been quite the pickle unless they stop being OHKO spells. While it may work to build a gauge around that, I think SE would much rather exclude them from the non-limited content.

Nevertheless, they're both reasonable and yeah I have to admit that it would be a way to make everyone happy. If SE did change the system the way it worked as you have detailed, I would be fine with it.

If SE announced that this is where they'd be going, so that we'd finally be allowed to play BLU freely...

I would pre-order Shadowbringers the moment I finished reading the announcement and stay subbed until the changes went through in 5.x. But as it stands unfortunately there is no such announcement. D:

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Originally Posted by Physic

blowing yourself up is not a dps loss depending when you blow yourself up. you can blow yourself up at the beginning and return before the 10 second entry time, and at the end. Also diamondback is not dps loss if its in times when you couldnt do dps, like many large damage phases. Also, blu mage is not like other classes that just focus on dps.


and as much as you personally may not care what happens in dungeons and outside of 8 man savage raids, you can bet that ffxiv developers care, keep in mind savage raids are only done by a small part of the community. Game balance and class design are never going to ignore all the other group content in the game.

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Blowing yourseld up at the start of an encounter means you get weakness when you're rez'd and also miss out on getting in as much damage as possible during the time raid buffs go out at the start.

If the boss is about to go untargetable, it's better to use Moon Flute, burst hard and then ignore the debuff during the time the boss is untargetable as opposed to boss is about to go untargetable, better cast this five second non-damaging spell and then stand in one place for ten seconds.

This reads like something someone who never did a normal mode raid would say.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Blowing yourseld up at the start of an encounter means you get weakness when you're rez'd and also miss out on getting in as much damage as possible during the time raid buffs go out at the start.

If the boss is about to go untargetable, it's better to use Moon Flute, burst hard and then ignore the debuff during the time the boss is untargetable as opposed to boss is about to go untargetable, better cast this five second non-damaging spell and then stand in one place for ten seconds.

This reads like something someone who never did a normal mode raid would say.

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Theyre actually talking about an exploit whereby if you die literally right at the start of a fight and release, the game teleports you back into the fight when you res at the dungeon start. So yeah the only way self destruct is a gain is an exploit

Shows how much I care about dungeons. Which does go back to their earlier claim about content actively being changed to negate exploits. Devs likely know about it, they just don't care since it's not at all gamebreaking.

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

I would pre-order Shadowbringers the moment I finished readin the announcement and stay subbed until the changes went through in 5.x. But as it stands unfortunately there is no such announcement. D:

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Count me in on that too. Experiencing the game as a Blue Mage was something I was looking forward to since my friends convinced me to try it in 2.3~ish. Said friends also got me playing Final Fantasy Explorers with them, where I immediately latched onto Blue Mage and helped them clear everything in that game. We all had fun and wondered when it'd make it into XIV someday. Alas...

I absolutely loved BLU in FF Explorers. Was my favorite job to play in it.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

I absolutely loved BLU in FF Explorers. Was my favorite job to play in it.

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I know, right? I had a lot of fun with that game even if it was just an extremely obvious Monster Hunter-lite copy. And Blue Mage was done so well, and it was technically online multiplayer too. I had written guides on it when it came out since nobody else seemed to be messing with Blue Mage combos. It was great. I've actually been playing that on and off again during my extended leave from FFXIV, since it reminds me that another take of Blue Mage can be done and it needn't die here in XIV as some segregated "too weird" abomination.

Grand Delta for limit break!!

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...lue-mage-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Theyre actually talking about an exploit whereby if you die literally right at the start of a fight and release, the game teleports you back into the fight when you res at the dungeon start. So yeah the only way self destruct is a gain is an exploit

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not sure if its an exploit, because only blue can take advantage of it, and blu is made to break things. This is why the class, is not supposed to be in the endgame, it has a number of things which are kinda broken.







Its also worth it if its going to end the fight, or its more damage than you can do otherwise.


ending a moonflute combo with self destruct, well for regular dungeoons, it takes about 3 blue mages selfdestructs to kill a boss, so basically you only have to get 80%, however if you are talking about other more hardcore encounters, lets just say a level 50 blue can do 30k with self destruct combo. so, basically, if there are 5 of us, thats 150k.



just now, on turn 4 nael, that looks to be about 3-5% health. that means 15-25% health can be done to a high end boss. thats a signifigant portion of his final health pool, which is generally when a boss is at their most dangerous.

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Originally Posted by Physic

they arent doing it because its hard to balance, they are doing it because balancing it and making it fit in to a ffxiv framework kills the spirit, and entertainment of the job.

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Naoki Yoshida: The Blue Mage is only able to acquire balance because it is what we now call a “limited job,” and there are no plans to remove the limited aspect from the job.

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It's a house of cards Physic and Awha, remove a fundamental piece and it all comes crashing down. And as Yoshi-P stated, "balance" is what is being used as an excuse. If SE wanted any sort of meaningful feedback and acted on it, then it definitely would be to their benefit as well, not just the players.

Nevertheless, as Rei and Valde suggested, therein lies a possiblity to have both your "limited job" aspects and what we want to be able to use BLU as any other job.
I don't want to shamelessly use what Valde said repeatedly, but I have to because it's pivotal: it's about the "drain on resources" Valde hinted at.

Here is the thing, if there is a way to make everyone happy, and as a business having their customers be happy is necessary since we are the ones paying, wouldn't it make sense for them to take that route?
If not, then what other excuse is there? That the business itself simply doesn't want to because they don't want to put in the effort?
In other words because they're being... l-a-z-ee?

Because if that's the answer, it's not really a good answer is it?

Anyway, there doesn't seem to be a way to have a honest vis-a-vis with SE. I don't speak Japanese, google translator is what I have to rely on and you know how it is...
On this aspect even the other MMOs aren't fairing that well tbh.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Shows how much I care about dungeons. Which does go back to their earlier claim about content actively being changed to negate exploits. Devs likely know about it, they just don't care since it's not at all gamebreaking.

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point is, blue mage is supposed to broken things, they want people to be able to do weird broken things with it, thats why they seperate it from leveling and high end content.

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Originally Posted by Physic

point is, blue mage is supposed to broken things, they want people to be able to do weird broken things with it, thats why they seperate it from leveling and high end content.

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Except..it's not broken it doesn't even feel fun to play at max level, the fun was leveling and getting spells till you got 1000 needles and then /doze for the rest of the levels and what high end content are you talking about? EX primals? Why slog through the grind when you can get 2 lvl 70s to carry you and 6 other BLUs through EX primals that you can't even do? You can only do weird things like blow up in major cities for some comic relief I'd much prefer an actual class than having something that is segregated from everything else.

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

It's a house of cards Physic and Awha, remove a fundamental piece and it all comes crashing down. And as Yoshi-P stated, "balance" is what is being used as an excuse. If SE wanted any sort of meaningful feedback and acted on it, then it definitely would be to their benefit as well, not just the players.

Nevertheless, as Rei and Valde suggested, therein lies a possiblity to have both your "limited job" aspects and what we want to be able to use BLU as any other job.
I don't want to shamelessly use what Valde said repeatedly, but I have to because it's pivotal: it's about the "drain on resources" Valde hinted at.

Here is the thing, if there is a way to make everyone happy, and as a business having their customers be happy is necessary since we are the ones paying, wouldn't it make sense for them to take that route?
If not, then what other excuse is there? That the business itself simply doesn't want to because they don't want to put in the effort?
In other words because they're being... l-a-z-ee?

Because if that's the answer, it's not really a good answer is it?

Anyway, there doesn't seem to be a way to have a honest vis-a-vis with SE. I don't speak Japanese, google translator is what I have to rely on and you know how it is...
On this aspect even the other MMOs aren't fairing that well tbh.

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the reality is likely this, they are not going to make blu limited and unlimited at the same time.


they dont want to miz weird stuff. I think you mentioned ffxi, that game was very different and less rigid. You had pure support classes, hybrid classes. DPS that ended up being a tank (ninja) This game is not going for that, they have a very rigid structure.



They dont feel comfortable mixing structures. And, they dont like balancing things twice/multiple times. They got rid of all the cross class synergies that was cool for soloing. Like taking cure on a dps/tank. Or bloodweapon on marauder. They want everything streamlined. and hard for players to make mistakes, taking the wrong skills, or playing with a different dps loop, etc.


They will not balance a class one way for duties, and another way for solo, or they wouldnt have destroyed cross class skills and the base class system.


I actually am happy they will be less rigid and more creative in limited jobs. Its cool to have some things run like a well oiled machine, but its a lot of fun to take a class like blue mage into this content and have your success be dependent on how you can put together a bunch of abilities.



Point is, its nice to think it would be cool if they did both, but they will not do both, not worth it for them, and they dont even really like the idea of a class that behaves differently in different settings. (classes/cross class removal)


we ll see what they do, perhaps they will do what you want. But i hope they expand on and develop limited jobs way more, they habe the potential to bring a lot of variety and a lot of fun when you are looking for a different type of play