Is dpsing and a healer becoming the standard norm!

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Envoyé par Aomine1992

I just don't understand...with how vit accs are set up now there is barely a reason to heal in most dungeons as the tank health barely drops so why not actually use some other skills to make your run more enjoyable and everyone else's run a bit smoother...I haven't played an MMO yet where the only thing a healer can do is heal

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it has very little to do with VIT accessories. The stops preventing large pulls is the main reason. The incoming damage per second to the tank is overall much lower.

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Envoyé par ZephyrMenodora

Way to be a douche - starting a static without a healer just so you can judge your pug healers and vote kick them. You could just get a static healer then that lives up to your standards.

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Pretty safe to say it's the person who just wants to stand around and get carried who is being a douche.

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Envoyé par Kaurie

it has very little to do with VIT accessories. The stops preventing large pulls is the main reason. The incoming damage per second to the tank is overall much lower.

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This is a change I'm not yet aware of as I am still level 50 and just got Heavensward today. If the zones now really require almost no healing then by all means dps. At 50 this is not the case and the roulette I do still feature large pulls and constant healing needed on the tank (and usually dps who pull aggro or are melee). This thread makes me worry because I enjoy shining as a healer - turning impossible situations around and really excelling AT HEALING. It sounds like Heavensward may not be the game for me because this thread leads me to believe that there are not opportunities for healers to demonstrate real healing skill and are now judged by how often they throw out a dps skill. This concept, not healing, bores me.

I've mained healing classes since EQ in 1999 and back then we were only really asked to heal, buff, and maybe stun. We had a heal that literally had a 10 second cast time and at the time I played groups were ecstatic if they just had no deaths. Things slowly started changing over the years where more games have communities that want their healers to DPS if the game even has a healing class at all. The only thing that remains consistent is that the healing classes remain the most criticized and unappreciated classes in games.


If a healer is actually bad as people are saying you would notice as you would die. but today a healer is bad even if they don't allow anyone to die and remove debuffs. Now they also not only have to add dps but good dps. The actual dps classes are typically not just allowed to be mediocre, but criticize healers now too.

I actually main healing classes because I actually like to heal. I see dps in this thread insulting healers who like to heal. WTF is this? An extension of healing I enjoy is curing debuffs and casting stuns and debuffs if we have them. If I wanted to dps I'd main another class.

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Envoyé par ZephyrMenodora

This is a change I'm not yet aware of as I am still level 50 and just got Heavensward today. If the zones now really require almost no healing then by all means dps. At 50 this is not the case and the roulette I do still feature large pulls and constant healing needed on the tank (and usually dos who pull aggro or see melee).

I've mained healing classes since EQ in 1999 and back then we were only really asked to heal, buff, and maybe stun. We had a heal that literally had a 10 second cast time and at the time I played groups were ecstatic if they just had no deaths. Things slowly started changing over the years where more games have communities that want their healers to DPS if the game even has a healing class at all. The only thing that remains consistent is that the healing classes remain the most criticized and unappreciated classes in games.


If a healer is actually bad as people are saying you would notice as you would die. but today a healer is bad even if they don't allow anyone to die and remove debuffs. Now they also not only have to add dps but good dps. The actual dps classes are typically not just allowed to be mediocre, but criticize healers now too.

I actually main healing classes because I actually like to heal. I see dps in this thread insulting healers who like to heal. WTF is this? An extension of healing I enjoy is curing debuffs and casting stuns and debuffs if we have them. If I wanted to dps I'd main another class.

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as mentioned previously, I did a sample at one of the two newest dungeons. I cast 1 physick the entire dungeon and adlos only between pulls. Other than that Eos solo healed it all and the tank never hit half health.

I then went to Aetherochemical Facility and had to heal quite a bit more.


I could, theoretically, just auto follow tank and let Eos do her work while I go make dinner or something I guess.

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Envoyé par Kaurie

as mentioned previously, I did a sample at one of the two newest dungeons. I cast 1 physick the entire dungeon and adlos only between pulls. Other than that Eos solo healed it all and the tank never hit half health.

I then went to Aetherochemical Facility and had to heal quite a bit more.


I could, theoretically, just auto follow tank and let Eos do her work while I go make dinner or something I guess.

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That's fine and dandy if you are a scholar. Your class is based off a dps class anyway as previously stated and fairy is really OP. If you are a WHM or AST you will be healing a bit more then twice in a dungeon run.

I main WHM so I don't have a fairy to reply on. But this news is still saddening. Content that is challenging to heal ifs what I find fun.

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Envoyé par TheUltimateSeph

That's fine and dandy if you are a scholar. Your class is based off a dps class anyway as previously stated and fairy is really OP. If you are a WHM or AST you will be healing a bit more then twice in a dungeon run.

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Precisely, as a WHM you will cast a regen once every 20s or so.

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Envoyé par ZephyrMenodora

The actual dps classes are typically not just allowed to be mediocre, but criticize healers now too.

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Like I've said before, no one wants DPS to get good, ever. Otherwise, people would actually support DPS having actual responsibilities. As it stands now, DPS jobs are more often an afterthought in any composition then something people want around.

Unfortunately, in this game mediocre DPS are celebrated since they give healers/tanks more to do via happily shoving all the leg work off on their cohorts, while DPS that actually either want to approve, or are actually competent at their jobs, are condemned because they take away from what healers could be doing, afai understand.

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Envoyé par Noxifer

I can't confirm the 'clearing everything' without any DPS jobs, but I do know that due to role preferences, we had groups from my FC levelling 50-60 and doing some dungeons with either two tanks or two healers (with one tank or healer pretending to be a dps). I know we did in particular the Vault with both combinations; had no particular issues as such, and while it did go slightly slower than with two DPS jobs, there was no particular difference in speed between the 'two tanks' and the 'two healers' setup. (Might be worth to mention that the distribution of roles was DRK/WAR or PLD/WAR and SCH/WHM respectively, with the WAR or SCH 'pretending to be a dps'.)

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It's common on Malboro, at least. I've seen or taken part in no DPS clears of pretty much everything from Sastasha synced down to A8N with a mixture of healers/tanks, including runs of every coil turn before Heavensward launched, 1 tank/23 healer runs of Void Ark/CT instances. I'm pretty sure I've even seen a couple of Savage Coil groups successfully clear without DPS, though I never entered that one personally because it's never interested me.

Beware long post ^^;

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Envoyé par Waliel

One day people will stop taking this out of context, but today is not the day.

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Whether the quote is taken out of context or not, it still summarizes some "I will only heal, no matter what" healers pretty well, and for that I kinda like it. ^^;

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Envoyé par AlphaSonic

Nope. It is the healer fault if he continues to DPS and the tank dies. But if the tank reaches 500 health and then the healer uses his cooldowns like Tetra, Essential Dignity, Lustrate. He did his job perfectly fine. Healers are here to keep you alive not to keep you at 100% all the time when it isn't even needed.

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Which is what Xlantaa said. If the healer is healing, and the tank dies due to lack of mitigation or dodging, then it's the tank's fault. If the healer is dpsing and the tank's hp is dropping and goes to 0, then it's kinda the healer's fault for not stopping their dpsing. If the tank isn't using mitigation, both of them are at fault, of course, but if the healer isn't even trying to compensate for the brainfarting tank, it's not solely the tank's fault for dying.

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Envoyé par Ashkendor

I call that kickbait. I'm not here to drag people through a dungeon while they watch Netflix!

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Agreed. Sure, temporarily it's ok, if they have to brb for some reason (as long as they say something first), but even then I'd really prefer if they put /follow on a ranged dps instead ^^; Due to /follow delays, they're bound to be hit by all AoEs directed at the tank otherwise.

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Envoyé par Seoulstar

I'm not entirely sure about that. Played many MMO's over the years and this is so far the only one where people go crazy about healers dpsing.

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I'm fairly sure Slappah meant "norm for forever in this game", not in general ^^;

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Envoyé par Kaurie

Heh wow, no one has ever actually verbally acknowledged my DPSing on my SCH. In fact, I often find I am more likely to get commendations if I don't DPS and I just sit around and heal once in awhile.

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I've experienced both *shrugs* It depends a lot on what kind of people you end up with in a run. But it's true, people rarely go out of their way to say anything specific about what was done right. But while I haven't had many people tell me 'good dpsing', I haven't really had anyone tell me 'good healing' either. Both are kind of expected, especially from a scholar, but in my experience people don't always complain in-duty regarding lack of dps either (when it comes to dungeons and other 'easier' content, that is). They'll just shrug and leave and figure they'll 'get a better healer next time', I suppose. I don't particularly care, to be honest. I'll dps as much as I'm comfortable with. If the tank's losing hp rapidly or very unevenly, I'll throw in a Shadowflare and a few MiasmaII -- without Cleric Stance. If it's a tank who's actively using self-mitigation and dodges stuff (and is more than marginally above the ilvl requirement), then I can feel safe going ClericStance until the tank's at around 50% hp or so. I do admit that there've been a couple of close calls where I've missed with my Miasma and want to recast it so I can Bane the group before going back, and then have to use my remaining Aetherflow stacks to Lustrate the tank to safety before I can take the time to cast a Physick or Adlo. Haven't lost anyone recently, though. Well, not for that reason at least.

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Envoyé par Kolsykol

If you solely want to heal and nothing else, there's.... Every other MMO ever out there...

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You have a fair point there, though I'm normally not too fond of the whole "if this one thing doesn't suit you, go play something else" argument.

That said, it did take me quite a while to get comfortable enough to dare stance dancing, and even now I still have to actively remind myself (both as scholar and as warrior) to actually utilize my stance dancing in combat. To switch to Deliverance after the other tank swapped with me, instead of remaining in Defiance because "I'll be tankswapping in just half a minute or so anyway". And I wasn't particularly damaged by other MMOs either -- I've only dabbled in LotRO and SWtOR up to around level 30 or so. So I can imagine that if you've played a "healers only heal" type of MMO extensively, the change could be shocking and/or stressful.

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Envoyé par Thunda_Cat_SMASH

It's fairly common to be fully capable of clearing everything without a single DPS job, running nothing but healers and tanks because healer DPS is frankly insanely high.

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I can't confirm the 'clearing everything' without any DPS jobs, but I do know that due to role preferences, we had groups from my FC levelling 50-60 and doing some dungeons with either two tanks or two healers (with one tank or healer pretending to be a dps). I know we did in particular the Vault with both combinations; had no particular issues as such, and while it did go slightly slower than with two DPS jobs, there was no particular difference in speed between the 'two tanks' and the 'two healers' setup. (Might be worth to mention that the distribution of roles was DRK/WAR or PLD/WAR and SCH/WHM respectively, with the WAR or SCH 'pretending to be a dps'.)

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Envoyé par Alistaire

Pretty safe to say it's the person who just wants to stand around and get carried who is being a douche.

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Well, if said person is telling you they want to get carried, and then very obviously does the bare minimum (I'm thinking of one tank in Void Ark doing this -- even used autoattacks only during one boss, and deliberately got himself locked out of the last fight, leaving me to tank both baby Echidna and one of the snakes), then yes, that person's a douche.

But if said person is uncomfortable healing because they're usually playing a different role, and is struggling to keep track of everything that's going on, taking those 'quiet moments' to calm themselves down and prepare for the next panic moment, then the person who went there partially pre-formed just to be able to kick 'bad healers' and then decides to kick them is a douche.

Basically, unless the person communicates an attitude of 'you're here to carry me', you have very little clue as to what's happening on their side of the screen.

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Envoyé par ZephyrMenodora

This is a change I'm not yet aware of as I am still level 50 and just got Heavensward today. If the zones now really require almost no healing then by all means dps. At 50 this is not the case and the roulette I do still feature large pulls and constant healing needed on the tank (and usually dps who pull aggro or are melee).

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It's a change that happened during one of the 2.x patches, actually. In the first couple of level 50 dungeons, as well as most of the ones before that, you could pull pretty much the entire stretch before a boss (Brayflox HM, for example). Then at some point (2.3, maybe?) they changed that, and dungeons started to feature 'gates' every two to three mob groups, preventing people from progressing further before all the enemies (or specific enemies) were killed. So yeah, after that the pulls could still be daunting for a 'fresh' healer, but for those who'd gotten used to the full pulls of the previous dungeons, it was mostly just a 'sigh, not another gated dungeon' experience.

Having run the expert roulette dungeons on both whm and sch ( who knows ast may be different but Im guessing not), the little amount of healing needed with people even on minimum ilevel is insane.

If they made dungeons where I had to heal more I would not mind the lack of dps coming from me. But as it stands now I would need to watch a stream or something in the background just healing a dungeon.

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Envoyé par Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Like I've said before, no one wants DPS to get good, ever. Otherwise, people would actually support DPS having actual responsibilities. As it stands now, DPS jobs are more often an afterthought in any composition then something people want around.

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So silly.. Healer DPS only go down everytime, especially in new expansion, while DPS jobs gain more and more power. In patch 3.2: All DPS gained additional power all thanks to melding mechanic, and healers now require accuracy to actually land a spell. Those new changes were a nerf to all healer DPS. Now, Lv60 dungeons are easy, especially new ones - very predictable and healers can pretty much spend 80% of their MP for DPS purposes. Try playing a healer like real DPS, you will fail.. MP runs out = long wait and monsters have 70% HP. Now, how about healing? If you don't, you fail too.

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Envoyé par Noxifer

I'm fairly sure Slappah meant "norm for forever in this game", not in general ^^;

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Ah..well a thousand pardons.

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Envoyé par Kaurie

as mentioned previously, I did a sample at one of the two newest dungeons. I cast 1 physick the entire dungeon and adlos only between pulls. Other than that Eos solo healed it all and the tank never hit half health.

I then went to Aetherochemical Facility and had to heal quite a bit more.


I could, theoretically, just auto follow tank and let Eos do her work while I go make dinner or something I guess.

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are you trying to defend this poor game design? yes, at the moment healing is not really rquired. and that's BAD game design in a game with a trinity. as a healer i want something to HEAL, not dpsing 99% of the time.

it's like square has forgotten to built content with healers in mind...

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Envoyé par Tint

are you trying to defend this poor game design? yes, at the moment healing is not really rquired. and that's BAD game design in a game with a trinity. as a healer i want something to HEAL, not dpsing 99% of the time.

it's like square has forgotten to built content with healers in mind...

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They do. It's just not in the dungeons.

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Envoyé par AngelicSence

Try playing a healer like real DPS, you will fail.. MP runs out = long wait and monsters have 70% HP. Now, how about healing? If you don't, you fail too.

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Try again. That's pretty much what I'm expected to do 24/7, even in top end raids. I'm much more likely to get yelled at by my co-healer if I step out of CS for a split second to use an Adlo+Deployment before a raid wide hit or a quick Indomitability.

And honestly, even as a white mage or an Astrologian, MP management is a complete joke. With just my natural MP regen ticks I can keep the tank alive with a regen and a basic cure after unloading everything into DPS with 10-15 casts, or more if I decide to Shroud for even more DPS.

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Envoyé par AngelicSence

No offense, but you make it sound like healer DPS is such a disaster, it killing this game and entire player base.

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People in this very thread are endorsing kicking healers for spending more than a GCD out of cleric stance regardess of the situation... sounds like killing to me, personally.

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Envoyé par Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Try again. That's pretty much what I'm expected to do 24/7, even in top end raids. I'm much more likely to get yelled at by my co-healer if I step out of CS for a split second to use an Adlo+Deployment before a raid wide hit or a quick Indomitability.

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It seem like you making those things up as you go. I know you have hatred towards healer DPS. Even if it's true and you get yelled by co-healer for performing party saving/assist move, you then need to team up with smart people and not stupid. No offense, but you make it sound like healer DPS is such a disaster, it killing this game and entire player base. Not true, you are just over thinking. If you are in a position to defend yourself, you have to be strong and understand that whoever yell at you for what you said they would, it's just stupid and not worth your time.

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Envoyé par MomomiMomi

They do. It's just not in the dungeons.

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then probably they should remove the healer spot from duty finder for dungeons

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Envoyé par AngelicSence

It seem like you making those things up as you go. I know you have hatred towards healer DPS. Even if it's true and you get yelled by co-healer for performing party saving/assist move, you then need to team up with smart people and not stupid. No offense, but you make it sound like healer DPS is such a disaster, it killing this game and entire player base. Not true, you are just over thinking. If you are in a position to defend yourself, you have to be strong and understand that whoever yell at you for what you said they would, it's just stupid and not worth your time.

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In fact, I read his post entirely differently as you did ?

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Envoyé par sorahu

the tanks had high migration...migrate more damage

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Mitigate

/char

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Envoyé par MomomiMomi

They do. It's just not in the dungeons.

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It's in the dungeons as well, but healing is just plain way too powerful. You'll likely fail having no healer at all, but Selene/Eos/Regen typically suffices.

And in raids, solo healing is the norm because unless people fail mechanics left and right, one healer tends to suffice. Even in EX and Savage content, you can apparently often spare the healing power and mana to get some more damage in instead.

At this point, we could probably cut the potencies of every healing spell in half and most content would still be easily clearable >_>

It's not becoming a standard norm, DPSing as a healer always has been a thing. Why put to waste Cleric Stance and the offensive abilities the game gives you? There's so much downtime from healing anyway so better DPS rather than standing there doing nothing and looking like an idiot.

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Envoyé par Tint

are you trying to defend this poor game design?

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It's not bad game design. Healers are there to keep your HP high up and remove detrimental effects whenever necessary. That's mainly their job and if they're good at it then they're healing fine, but do you really have to heal all the time when everyone in the party is in good shape or not in dangerously low health? No.

In my opinion, healers having the flexibility to DPS during fights is much better and fun than whatever game makes you spam heals 100% of the time. It's not like White Mages or other healers should be healing all the time in past FF games either, I mean I have my White Mage in my current FFT playthrough spam Holy all the time because it's so powerful.
I don't know what to think of you if you think spamming heals all the time when everyone is at full health and generating more enmity is fun and if you think DPSing as a healer is "bad" game design but to each their own.

I think I'd be more ok with dps healers if I could actually perform healing work as a DPS, and not the paltry sum offered by "Mug" either.

I don't have a problem with dps-ing on my healers if the party allows it. Unfortunately, especially in DF this is often not the case because people plan suck. Tanks that don't use their CDs properly or still did not get the memo that STR is useless now - staying in AOEs is also very popular.

However, that healer had a retarded attitude. So he/she was pissy that they actually had to heal at all? That is pretty lame. I play healers because I like supporting and healing. If i have the freedom to support with some extra dps, I'll do that but I don't see it as my duty, responsibility or a necessity. I dps if and when I want to and if someone tries to tell me that DPS-ing is my DUTY, they better check their eyes. I can also not heal THEM and if they tell me that I should have, I'll be more than happy to remind that what they think my duty is :)

i had an antitower, where the scholar simply didn't heal me from the start to the end, did leave it to the pixie. actually he did cast 3-4 heal max in the whole dungeon for be honest.
i find it kinda strange to think that SE did nerf to the ground the tank dps capacity and at the same time it did lead to the inverse.... the healer turning into dps more than healer.

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Envoyé par Kolsykol

It's something that I actually love about healing in this game about being a healer. If you don't like it, well.... Sad I guess. But at the same time, like every other MMO out there is already catered to you at that point. So I can't say that I feel all that much sympathy for you because ONE game happens to cater more towards me and others in terms of healers roles.

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Interesting. I came to FFXIV solely because it was one of the few games I could find with a dedicated healer in a trinity form. Outside of WoW, this has been pretty hard to find. Tera and Wildstar both had it, but I found healing in those games to be frustrating rather than fun. Guild Wars 2 removed healers entirely and every one is just a glorified DPS with a self heal skill on a long cooldown (though I think they've sort-of added a healer with the recent expansion). WoW is really the only game I've played with a proper healer in recent years. Yes, I could go to WoW, and I may. However, I came to FFXIV because it advertised a similar trinity system that WoW has.

Perhaps you can give me some examples of great MMO's that cater to healers having to keep on their toes with healing?

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Envoyé par Tint

are you trying to defend this poor game design? yes, at the moment healing is not really rquired. and that's BAD game design in a game with a trinity. as a healer i want something to HEAL, not dpsing 99% of the time.

it's like square has forgotten to built content with healers in mind...

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I am not promoting or defending anything in the quote you provided. I was simply providing an example to explain the state of things in current expert dungeons. However, if you'd like to know my opinion(s):

- The current expert roulettes are a joke for difficulty, and I do not understand why they did this
- I play a healer to heal and help my team through clutch situations. Nothing in this game supports this feeling
- If it came down to afki'ing through a dungeon or DPSing through a dungeon on my SCH, I choose DPS
- If it came down to DPSing through a dungeon, or having damage output approximately 10-15x as much as it is now, while also being sporadic in who is needing heals (requiring thought, reflex, reactive and proactive measures etc) then I would choose healing [This would also require all healing skills MP be reduced, PIE be increased or some combination]

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Envoyé par MomomiMomi

They do. It's just not in the dungeons.

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I disagree, even in raids and such, DPS from healers is very much a thing. Further, healing is way too predictable. I know exactly which person will be hit when for how much at any given point. Healing in Guild Wars 1 was much more involved and interesting even in just the open world (I use 'open world' loosely here as technically everything was instanced). To elaborate, a proactive measure in Guild Wars 1 would be - Oh i see a big ass mob running towards our caster, I'll start casting a big heal on the caster. A proactive measure in FFXIV is oh it's 2:43 into the fight, let's adlo the ranged DPS.

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Envoyé par dinnertime

It's not bad game design. Healers are there to keep your HP high up and remove detrimental effects whenever necessary. That's mainly their job and if they're good at it then they're healing fine, but do you really have to heal all the time when everyone in the party is in good shape or not in dangerously low health? No.

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The bad game design is that players neither get detrimental effects, nor hurt in the current expert dungeons. The person quoted me, where I noted that I cast one spell for the purpose of healing someone for an entire 24 minute dungeon.



TLDR: Healing in this game is easy. Healers can put out amazing DPS. If you don't DPS as a healer in this game, you're doing it wrong and you're a bad player. This system sucks, please make healers heal.

I do think SE needs to up the damage so healers (mainly whm) can actually heal and not have to dps, cause the new dungeons are a joke hardly any healing needs to be done so yea gotta be in cleric stance doing dps which most the time I'm like no thanks and just stay on my ninja job cause might as well play my dps job if going to be dpsing.

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Envoyé par Kaurie

TLDR: Healing in this game is easy. Healers can put out amazing DPS. If you don't DPS as a healer in this game, you're doing it wrong and you're a bad player. This system sucks, please make healers heal.

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You're wrong if you think raids, trials etc. also need minimal healing like in dungeons, especially something like savage raids and Sephirot EX which is such a healer-intensive fight during the adds phases. And predictable? During enrage, sure, but you're so incorrect about this.

If nobody is taking damage or suffering detrimental effects in the expert dungeons then that could mean the party is good at avoiding all these bad things and the tank is good at mitigating damage with their own cooldowns, giving an easier life for the healer. If you actually want them to suffer more damage and debuffs just so you can have the satisfaction of healing them more then feel free to ask them to intentionally get hit by all the mechanics.

Healers are meant to DPS during downtime anyway. I mean, they were given Cleric Stance and were given offensive skills at 52-60, especially WHM with the most given like Aero III, Assize and Stone III.
Both healing and contributing to DPS means you're helping the party even more. Lacking in one means you're not playing the role as efficiently. It's been mentioned in the Novice Hall itself that healers should be casting damaging magicks if the party is fine so nobody can't really deny that healers weren't meant to DPS.

No other roles have such flexibility to heal other than the healer themselves. The tank can but it's not as efficient. You heal to keep the party up, that simply makes you a healer.

If a healer is actually opposed to DPSing when there's downtime then they're incompetent. Healers heal when necessary, they DPS when there's no need to heal. That's how the game works, and I see this as something that'll never change because that's the concept they're built on. I'll never understand this mindset of "If i'm expected to DPS as a healer then I should've just rolled a DPS class/job instead" when all of the roles already have so much opportunities and tools to DPS. You're just putting all of that to waste.

it seems like this is what is being promoted:

"Healers can dps" is different from "Healers have to dps" SE would like to promote the former, without making the latter the rule. this makes accuracy caps an important role in enforcing this. in easier content, healers will have the accuracy to dps if they choose, without making it mandatory to succeed(do to ilvl stats or easier difficulty), but in highler level content, you cannot force a healer to dps on something they cannot hit to begin with.

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Envoyé par dinnertime

If a healer is actually opposed to DPSing when there's downtime then they're incompetent. Healers heal when necessary, they DPS when there's no need to heal. That's how the game works, and I see this as something that'll never change because that's the concept they're built on.

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my problem is the downtime is almost 100%. when i am spending more time dpsing than healing than i think this is bad game design. especially with the lack of accuracy and mana.

i was in there at day one, full blind run with minimum ilvl option and it already was a joke.

yes, a healer is meant to dps in his downtimes, i can agree to that. but i dislike the amount of downtimes. in the 2.x era i couldn't stay all day in cleric, so something HAS changed...

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Envoyé par Kallera

it seems like this is what is being promoted:.

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The only thing FFXIV would have that could be considered higher level content would be Savage. And good luck finding a static if you dont dps.

The game simply put does not throw out the amount of damage needed for full time healing. If you were to just heal you would be doing an awful lot of standing around contributing nothing to your group.

Obviously being new, learning or first few times in a duty are an exception, but once you are used to a duty you should be dpsing when given the option to do so pretty much.

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Envoyé par dinnertime

You're wrong if you think raids, trials etc. also need minimal healing like in dungeons, especially something like savage raids and Sephirot EX which is such a healer-intensive fight during the adds phases. And predictable? During enrage, sure, but you're so incorrect about this.

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I am not sure if I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that damage in raids is not predictable? I agree, Seph EX requires a lot more healing than dungeons. Despite this, I have no issue getting in damage consistently throughout the entire thing. I've been healing in a raiding environment in FFXIV for a long time - I mention this as it sounds like you think I am new to the game or new to healing or something. I've personally healed in T1, T2, T4, T5, T6, T9, T10, T11, T12, T13, A1S, A2S, Garuda Ex, Titan Ex, Ifrit Ex, Leviathan Ex, Ramuh Ex, Shiva Ex, Ravana Ex, Bismarck Ex, Sephirot Ex, Thordan Ex, Moogle Ex.

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If nobody is taking damage or suffering detrimental effects in the expert dungeons then that could mean the party is good at avoiding all these bad things and the tank is good at mitigating damage with their own cooldowns, giving an easier life for the healer. If you actually want them to suffer more damage and debuffs just so you can have the satisfaction of healing them more then feel free to ask them to intentionally get hit by all the mechanics.

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Well that would be quite idiotic.

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Healers are meant to DPS during downtime anyway. I mean, they were given Cleric Stance and were given offensive skills at 52-60, especially WHM with the most given like Aero III, Assize and Stone III.
Both healing and contributing to DPS means you're helping the party even more. Lacking in one means you're not playing the role as efficiently. It's been mentioned in the Novice Hall itself that healers should be casting damaging magicks if the party is fine so nobody can't really deny that healers weren't meant to DPS.

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I am not sure the relevance of this as directed to me. Or was just the first half of your post directed at me? If this part is, then I believe you didn't read my posts entirety or misunderstood something along the way. As a healer, I have DPSed in every encounter. I understand the game is designed with this in mind, but that doesn't make me think that the design isn't bad.

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No other roles have such flexibility to heal other than the healer themselves. The tank can but it's not as efficient. You heal to keep the party up, that simply makes you a healer.

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?

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If a healer is actually opposed to DPSing when there's downtime then they're incompetent. Healers heal when necessary, they DPS when there's no need to heal. That's how the game works, and I see this as something that'll never change because that's the concept they're built on. I'll never understand this mindset of "If i'm expected to DPS as a healer then I should've just rolled a DPS class/job instead" when all of the roles already have so much opportunities and tools to DPS. You're just putting all of that to waste.

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Unfortunate truths here.

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Envoyé par Tint

my problem is the downtime is almost 100%. when i am spending more time dpsing than healing than i think this is bad game design. especially with the lack of accuracy and mana.

i was in there at day one, full blind run with minimum ilvl option and it already was a joke.

yes, a healer is meant to dps in his downtimes, i can agree to that. but i dislike the amount of downtimes. in the 2.x era i couldn't stay all day in cleric.

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I'll give you accuracy but you shouldn't be burning all your MP on DPSing at all. But yeah having so much downtime from healing is definitely because of the tank changes.

I may have been a little harsh about what I've said though that healers should be DPS and that i'm rubbing it on people who are opposed to it. Like Kallera said, it's something optional for healers to do but I just believe not doing it at all is just incompetence on the healer's part. Still, you're free not to contribute to DPS.
I actually enjoy DPSing as a healer and keeping the party up simultaneously so I dunno why others can't feel the same, honestly.

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Envoyé par dinnertime

I'll give you accuracy but you shouldn't be burning all your MP on DPSing at all. But yeah having so much downtime from healing is definitely because of the tank changes.

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Again. It has nothing to do with tank changes. The encounters put out less damage per second. Having more VIT doesn't make you take less damage, it just adds a higher buffer before you have to heal. These dungeons don't require you to heal, because the damage per second to the tank is approximately 1/3 of what it was previously. Coincidentally, Eos does 1/3 of my healing, so I am set.

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Envoyé par dinnertime

I'll never understand this mindset of "If i'm expected to DPS as a healer then I should've just rolled a DPS class/job instead" when all of the roles already have so much opportunities and tools to DPS. You're just putting all of that to waste.

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why do i have to put all my healing spells to waste? i have lots of them, not just regen o.ô

This topic just never goes away does it? Perhaps it should have it's own sub-forum?

Either way, Healers heal, Tanks tank and DPS deal big damage. Tanks and healers can contribute extra DPS depending on circumstances. However, demanding that Healers DPS more is akin to asking DPS players to do more party healing. That's never going to happen is it? It's totally inefficient. In effect this expectation demands that healers perform two roles, healer and damage dealer.

Personally I would much rather a Healer focus on keeping everyone alive rather than stance dancing and running in to Holy the crap out of things. If circumstances allow, and the player is comfortable, that's great, but if not, let the healer heal, and if they find room to do damage it's a nice added bonus.

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Envoyé par Kosmos992k

However, demanding that Healers DPS more is akin to asking DPS players to do more party healing. That's never going to happen is it? It's totally inefficient. In effect this expectation demands that healers perform two roles, healer and damage dealer..

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The difference to determine efficiency comes from opportunity cost.

Opportunity cost of a DPS healing: Lost damage.

Opportunity cost of a healer DPSing: Nothing (unless you count entertaining emotes).

If there was an encounter where a DPS could be doing absolutely nothing, nothing to attack so the opportunity cost of healing was not lost damage AND there was a fair amount of healing to do that the added heals from a BLM/SMN were useful, then sure. It'd be the same thing. The thing is, this is never the case.

This comparison would be even more relevant if BLM/SMN had a healing stance as well.

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This topic just never goes away does it? Perhaps it should have it's own sub-forum?

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I agree, and for some reason i cannot stop posting in it.

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Envoyé par Kaurie

I am not sure if I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that damage in raids is not predictable? I agree, Seph EX requires a lot more healing than dungeons. Despite this, I have no issue getting in damage consistently throughout the entire thing. I've been healing in a raiding environment in FFXIV for a long time - I mention this as it sounds like you think I am new to the game or new to healing or something. I've personally healed in T1, T2, T4, T5, T6, T9, T10, T11, T12, T13, A1S, A2S, Garuda Ex, Titan Ex, Ifrit Ex, Leviathan Ex, Ramuh Ex, Shiva Ex, Ravana Ex, Bismarck Ex, Sephirot Ex, Thordan Ex, Moogle Ex.

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No I am not implying you are new at all. While most fights we have are scripted, it doesn't mean it will always go as planned with the party with some people who would make mistakes like for example: a party member killing too much adds simultaneously in Sephirot Ex or getting debuffs, and there are certainly some random mechanics as well.
By the way they example you gave is just as predictable as most fights in FFXIV if you know the monster is getting near a certain party member. It's comparable to cast timers.

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Well that would be quite idiotic.

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Then don't hope for it.

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I am not sure the relevance of this as directed to me. Or was just the first half of your post directed at me? If this part is, then I believe you didn't read my posts entirety or misunderstood something along the way. As a healer, I have DPSed in every encounter. I understand the game is designed with this in mind, but that doesn't make me think that the design isn't bad.

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Most of what I've said isn't really directed to you specifically but it's related to the thread discussion here.

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?

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Same as above. People believe healers shouldn't be called a healer if they're advised to DPS.

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Unfortunate truths here.

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It's unfortunate that you are opposed to this.

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Envoyé par Tint

why do i have to put all my healing spells to waste? i have lots of them, not just regen o.ô

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Because there's a specific time for them, same with damage spells.

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Envoyé par Kaurie

The difference to determine efficiency comes from opportunity cost.

Opportunity cost of a DPS healing: Lost damage.

Opportunity cost of a healer DPSing: Nothing (unless you count entertaining emotes).

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I'm not suggesting healers should twiddle their thumbs or dance between phases while everyone else flails away. I agree with you that behavior would be ridiculous and I don't think anyone would think it was appropriate for that to happen.

Quick aside : In another game we had someone in a party who'd literally sit down during fights, if they felt they were not needed for that fight. Guess how long they lasted before we abandoned the quest and repartied...I remember another occasion where some player who thought they were sh*t hot was making snide comments about others. So, we fed him to a mini-boss. Twice. He left, and we killed the remainder of the quest without him. So I agree that players should always pull their weight and contribute to the team in every way they can.

As always in this discussion I agree (with you) in that if a healer can, and is comfortable doing so, they really ought to contribute as much as they can to a fight. However, how much the contribute needs to be their decision and not mine, yours or anyone else's.

Players have different levels of comfort with stance dancing and damage dealing as a healer. I would expect that end-game players and raiders who are healers would have the art of stance dancing well practiced. But in general, I don't think it fair to demand or expect all healers should perform as healers in raids do.

...and regarding this topic needing a sub-forum...

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I agree, and for some reason i cannot stop posting in it.

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Neither can I.

;)

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Envoyé par dinnertime

snip.

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Ah OK that makes more sense. I felt your reply to my post didn't make a lot of sense. That said, your points make a lot of sense.

I agree in the current game that healers should DPS and if you are not then you are playing poorly.

I disagree that the comparison is the same of Guild Wars 1 to this. In GW1 it was unexpected of when people were going to get hit. In FFXIV everything is on a timer. I know that I can do this exact rotation as a SCH in Seph EX every time:

-Adlo/Depoy or Succor prepull, Cleric Stance
-Bio II
-Miasma
-Bio
-Swiftcast Shadowflare
-E-Drain
-Aero
-E-Drain
-Cleric Off
-Succor
-Adlo tank
-Succor
-Cleric on
-Bio
-Miasma
-Aero
-Sacred Soil
-Stack/Aetherflow
-Bio II
-Cleric off
-Rouse***
-Succor
-Whispering Dawn
-Adlo Tank
-Emergency Tactics
-Adlo tank (tank buster)
-Cleric on
-Bio II
-Miasma
-Bio
-Swift/Shadowflare
-E-drain
-Aero
-E-drain
-Cleric off
-move for circles
-move back in
-Succor
-Adlo tank
-Emergency Tactics
-Adlo tank
-Cleric on
-Bio
-Miasma
-Aero
-Bio II
-Sacred Soil
-Aetherflow
-Cleric off
-Succor

(NOTE for above rotation, I do fit in quite a few Broils, but that I don't have counted and just fit them in where I can)

repeat from *** until add phase

etc etc.. I mean, every time, without fail. There is like 0 AI, 0 unexpected damage, 0 variation.

In terms of the add phase, that is a little bit more GW1 in what I am saying, in that I know to succor as adds get low on HP - especially pre cochma death and post cocham indom/succor. That said, aoe healing isn't that fun. I'd rather have unexpected damage spikes on the DPS that I need to be ready for and ready to heal asap or they are going to die. Putting on cleric stance and DPSing would be this huge risk and likely result in deaths. Instead, I can pop it on relatively risk free in 'healing intensive' encounters.

Let me change the title for you:
Using all of the skills / actions you are able to use on your job is completely normal.