What does everyone think about those AST buffs?

Really sch's, noct stance is our dissipation. It's a potency drop for shields we don't really need. We're not coming for your jobs.

...We're coming for whm's job!

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Originally Posted by ckc22

This is what happens when you design a class as "use other classes abilities".

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Haha.....I don't believe it.....

nothing but jealousy!
You really think AST is now "better" than your job????
I don't think so!

Its just equal to it! (if not still unter yours)

Patch has been live for five hours now and the salt is so real. Literally none of the haters know what's really going on, hell most astronomers mains haven't even had a chance to play with the buffs yet and the shitstorm is so real

So, just some theory crafting about WHM / SCH / AST normal healing should look like if anyone is interested - you can find my methodology on the thread I posted here.


Pre 3.07

Potency / MIN

• Diurnal AST - 10,740 Potency / Min
• Nocturnal AST - 9,576 Potency / Min
• Scholar - 13,600 Potency / Min
• White Mage - 11,400 Potency / Min

Potency / GCD

• Diurnal AST - 482 Potency / GCD
• Nocturnal AST - 399 Potency / GCD
• Scholar - 566 Potency / GCD
• White Mage - 525 Potency / GCD

At Patch 3.07

Potency / MIN

• Diurnal AST - 11,960 Potency / Min
• Nocturnal AST - 10,080 Potency / Min
• Scholar - 13,600 Potency / Min
• White Mage - 11,400 Potency / Min

Potency / GCD

• Diurnal AST - 537 Potency / GCD
• Nocturnal AST - 420 Potency / GCD
• Scholar - 566 Potency / GCD
• White Mage - 525 Potency / GCD

From a theorycraft standpoint, Nocturnal still feels weak compared to Diurnal but at least these changes give it that feeling of "higher front load for higher MP" now since Diurnal Aspected Benefic is now the most efficient Heal in the entire AST kit.

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Originally Posted by Miiu

ckc22 I dont really see your problem as SCH I feel not in the least bit threatened by AST or even jealous. AST recieved some of the buffs they needed and I wouldn't even be mad or anything if they recieved some additional work in 3.1.

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He clearly wanted SCH to remain the job you can't give up for raid, while now AST is maybe a possible substitute.
lol @"three is a crowd". We have 7 dps in the game. How do you call that?

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

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Adlo is 600 potency 70% of the time and 1350 potency 30% of time = 825 avg potency. Aspected Benefic is 262.5 + 341.25 shield = 603.75 potency 70% of the time and 906 30% of the time when it crits = 694 avg potency. True, it's instant, but that's doesn't really change anything since it's on GCD.

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Yes I was wrong about that. I don't use SCH stance anyway so I don't care that much. Instant cast does mean something when timing is tight.

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(indomitability and assize are stupidly powerful emergency skills)

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Assize is not really an emergency heal, it has a huge latency between u use the spell and everyone's HP go up.(1-1.5sec ish)

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it's just fair. CU is now finally useful but it still poses restrictions that asylum/sacred soil don't, so you can't use it as freely. Again, fair trade-off.

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No CU is arguably better. You have to stay in Asylum/Sacred soil all the time, whereas you only need to step into CU once and you get the buff.

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Originally Posted by Zaj_Quilos

Why would you pick an Astrologian if that was such a huge concern when not only has its always been advertised this way but even the lore of the job quests expects you to deal with the cards that you get.

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I don't think you realize you just proved why rng is an issue. Why would anyone bring an ast to progression since rng is such a huge concern?

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

He clearly wanted SCH to remain the job you can't give up for raid, while now AST is maybe a possible substitute.
lol @"three is a crowd". We have 7 dps in the game. How do you call that?

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Yeah, I don't know what he's smoking, but I'd definitely take some. :)

If anything SCH is definitely NOT in danger of being outdone by AST. I main both, and AST just doesn't have the raw mana recovery to pump shields out at the rate SCH does (not unless you draw noting but Ewers...).

WHMs still have the best healing RANGE in the game, as well as overall potency over both of the other healers.

AST was kind of a joke in comparison before. Now, it's ~90% of what the other healers can do, with the cards occasionally bringing its overall benefit up to 110%, but often doing nothing useful at all so it's balanced.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Yeah, I don't know what he's smoking, but I'd definitely take some. :)

If anything SCH is definitely NOT in danger of being outdone by AST. I main both, and AST just doesn't have the raw mana recovery to pump shields out at the rate SCH does (not unless you draw noting but Ewers...).

WHMs still have the best healing RANGE in the game, as well as overall potency over both of the other healers.

AST was kind of a joke in comparison before. Now, it's ~90% of what the other healers can do, with the cards occasionally bringing its overall benefit up to 110%, but often doing nothing useful at all so it's balanced.

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Hell yea...thanks for that!

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

I don't think you realize you just proved why rng is an issue. Why would anyone bring an ast to progression since rng is such a huge concern?

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Even in a fight where you draw nothing but spear, you will keep up in heals and everyone will have fast cooldowns :)

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Originally Posted by Mog77

Even in a fight where you draw nothing but spear, you will keep up in heals and everyone will have fast cooldowns :)

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Which still makes you objectively worse than a sch in the buffing department, purely because they have consistency.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

Which still makes you objectively worse than a sch in the buffing department, purely because they have consistency.

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However, most of the best SCH tools are mutually exclusive. Like cards. But even our so envied burst healing CDs use Aetherflow which is another resource entirely. Fairies are also mutually exclusive. Apart from cards (and sects, but that is obvious), Ast and Whm have access to their arsenal all the time until MP last.

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Originally Posted by RoseM

No CU is arguably better. You have to stay in Asylum/Sacred soil all the time, whereas you only need to step into CU once and you get the buff.

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It is not. It's different. I A1S, a WHM has a few options on how to use Asylum. I just throw it on a tank + regens + possibly medica ii ticks for a lot of hot. I basically use it on cd since it's always useful. CU is much more situational. In A1S the only efficient way to use it is after the jumps to mitigate the damage and leave a hot on your party and that's it. Using it in other circumstances is a waste of time, so you'll use it 3 times during that encounter. I use Asylum 7-8 times in A1S. In A2S Asylum is probably better since you have to move a lot and there's no big aoe to mitigate. They have different uses. The fact that you can't throw the bubble is an important point that must be somehow balanced with a better effect when you CAN use it. Anyway, I believe that CU will be very powerful in A3S.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Ast and Whm have access to their arsenal all the time until MP last.

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Which is some major issue, not sure why you write at the end like it's not so important. Everything is mutually exclusive if you have to care about your MP...because MP is a scarce resource, you know, just like AF stacks. SCHs have a lot of skills oGCD with no MP cost, plus a different resource that allows them to use 3 very powerful skills every 60 seconds. As a consequence, SCHs have no MP issues, allowing them to use their spells more freely. It's a well thought system and it's very well balanced right now. Anyway SCH skills are not random. Think about your fairy skills being replaced by one single skill that triggers fey covenant...or illumination, or wind, caress, randomly, then you get the idea.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Only two gripes were no notated change to Shuffle not giving you the same card twice (though, maybe they ninja changed it, and we just don't know yet - has to be tested?) and no added heal to Celestial. But, still very happy with all of the changes made.

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You can still draw the same card twice in a row.

If you draw Spear use it on yourself or a class with a rotation including frequently used CD skills (ei SMN) Better yet, use voice chat and see the card shine
Spire isn’t useless in a raid… in light parties sure, but you don’t even need cards in light party content.

All cards have legitimate use, which translates into party benefit……People on here complain way too much while only focusing on the basic tactics.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

However, most of the best SCH tools are mutually exclusive. Like cards. But even our so envied burst healing CDs use Aetherflow which is another resource entirely. Fairies are also mutually exclusive.

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You're missing the point. Having what you need when you need it > leaving it up to chance. Plus, they aren't "mutually exclusive", they just share a resource. Like mana. Just because I use SS doesn't mean I can't still use indom and/or lustrate immediately after. You just can't go apeshit with using them. Plus, you can use Fey Wind with SS, which is virtually like forcing an AE balance/arrow draw and a bole draw every 60 and 30 sec (respectively) together. Something not even possible on ast.

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Apart from cards (and sects, but that is obvious), Ast and Whm have access to their arsenal all the time until MP last.

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And I don't get what point you're trying to make here. Aetherflow can equate to cards and fairies to sects in this statement. Except that you have total control over everything on sch and can even swap fairies during a fight should you need to.

Benefic has same Potency as Cure but costs less than Cure (MP Wise). I thought they wouldn't buff Benefic (and others) to the same potency as Cure/Physick. I feel like WHM might be pushed out soon.

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Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo

Except they don't have Virus, or E4E, or Aetherflow, or a fairy.
So, I think we're still good. :V

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Except Astro now has a stronger non crit Adlo, disable that stacks with virus, Collective Uncon. that can be used as a regen + damage reduction. A stance that gives +5% spell speed or +5% healing magic potency...

I dont know, seems like overkill to me

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Originally Posted by DCILuther

Benefic has same Potency as Cure but costs less than Cure (MP Wise). I thought they wouldn't buff Benefic (and others) to the same potency as Cure/Physick. I feel like WHM might be pushed out soon.

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So then......if the other healers feel attacked by the buffs of AST...just change into AST! And look if it was worth it! I'm curious about your opinion then!

It just sounds like you think that you can go easily through all with the AST....
all I read in here is nothing but Jealousy!!!!!!
You don't know nothing about this Job and just feel attacked in your being!
That's all!

I still think that Whitemage is a great Job...and so is Scholar!!!!!

Astro just catches up now!!!!
and for a new healerclass.....this is what it's meant to do!!!!

As the AST came out, I decited to change into it! No matter if it's UP or not! and it was!!!!
now the AST finally cought up to the others!!! And most of the Scholars and Whitemages have nothing to do than "mimimi" about that!

Get over it and feel happy that there is one more healer that can support you!!!!!

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CU is arguably better.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

It is not. In A1S the only efficient way to use it is.... In A2S Asylum is probably better since .... Anyway, I believe that CU will be very powerful in A3S.

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So.. not good in A1, good in A2, very good in A3.. I thought this was the definition of arguably better ?
Are you saying no just because you enjoy saying it? lol

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Originally Posted by ckc22

Because it costs you 2k to resummon.
Dissipation is only useful for Dps. The buff doesn't even make up for loss of fairy and doesn't apply to aetherflow heals.
It's bad. Excessively situational at best.

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As I mentioned, Dissipation has some strategic use if you are going to change fairies anyway, so the cost to re-summon with 3 fresh Aetherflow stacks, really? That is just nitpicking, and it doesn't jive with the statement that it costs more MP to use. The potency boost is mainly to be used with one of the tactical cooldowns and/or Adlo, if you aren't you aren't using the skill to it's full potential. 30 seconds. That is valuable MP gain for a DPS push.

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Originally Posted by Slib

Except Astro now has a stronger non crit Adlo

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No it's not, where are you getting that from? It's an instant cast, which is nice, but it's certainly not stronger.

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Originally Posted by technole

As I mentioned, Dissipation has some strategic use if you are going to change fairies anyway, so the cost to re-summon with 3 fresh Aetherflow stacks, really? That is just nitpicking, and it doesn't jive with the statement that it costs more MP to use. The potency boost is mainly to be used with one of the tactical cooldowns and/or Adlo, if you aren't you aren't using the skill to it's full potential. 30 seconds. That is valuable MP gain for a DPS push.

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What tactic cooldowns? Dissi buff does not influence Indomitability or Lustrate. Do you mean Emergency Tactics - so a situational setup for a situational cd? Lol ok.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

No it's not, where are you getting that from? It's an instant cast, which is nice, but it's certainly not stronger.

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Yes it is. Raw potency including shield is higher and costs like 40% less MP.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Yes it is. Raw potency including shield is higher at like 40% less MP.

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No it's not. It's close but it's not stronger.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

Yes it is. Meaning you can choose to use a 573 potency shield on cd. Roughly ~critlo with 0 rng.

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Wait, what? This is false. Synastry only works for direct healings. In aspected benefic case: 250 base potency*1.05 to account for Noct buff*1.2 for Synastry=315 potency. Then you compute 315*1.3=409.5, which is the potency of the shield. If you want to compute the total potency of the skill while Synastry is on, you just take this shield and add 315*1.4, for a total of 850 potency. Is it strong? Yes. Should you use it? Generally speaking, no, unless your tank will die without such a strong shield. As Aspected Benefic's shield component accounts for 57% of the total potency of the skill, using Aspected Benefic while Synastry is active means you're wasting Synastry because you're using Synastry primary effect only on a 315 potency spell. For comparison, using Benefic II with synastry is 1150 potency. Also critlo shield is around 900 potency (1350 total potency), even with your (wrong) numbers saying "Roughly ~critlo with 0 rng." is just...silly. Critlo shield is more than double the potency of noct AB with synastry when AB does not crit, 1.5 times better when AB does crit.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

No it's not. It's close but it's not stronger.

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Aspected Benefic is 250 Potency. Adjust this value for the 5% Healing bonus from Nocturnal Sect and floor for floor(250 * 1.05) = 262 Potency.

Shield is now 130% of the healed amount. floor(262 * 1.3) = 340 Potency

262 + 340 Potency = 602 Potency.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Aspected Benefic is 250 Potency. Adjust this value for the 5% Healing bonus from Nocturnal Sect and floor for floor(250 * 1.05) = 262 Potency.

Shield is now 130% of the healed amount. floor(262 * 1.3) = 340 Potency

262 + 340 Potency = 602 Potency.

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Precisely. I thought it was 603.75, but whatever.

Also, WAY cheaper MP wise. And instant.

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Originally Posted by technole

As I mentioned, Dissipation has some strategic use if you are going to change fairies anyway, so the cost to re-summon with 3 fresh Aetherflow stacks, really? That is just nitpicking, and it doesn't jive with the statement that it costs more MP to use. The potency boost is mainly to be used with one of the tactical cooldowns and/or Adlo, if you aren't you aren't using the skill to it's full potential. 30 seconds. That is valuable MP gain for a DPS push.

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You said nothing different than my post. The facts are the same.

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Originally Posted by DCILuther

Benefic has same Potency as Cure but costs less than Cure (MP Wise). I thought they wouldn't buff Benefic (and others) to the same potency as Cure/Physick. I feel like WHM might be pushed out soon.

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I agree. What Astro's failed to realize was that their heals did have lower potency, but they also had lowered MP cost. Now they have same potency as WHM and still the same lowered MP cost.
Their MP cost needs to increased to match the potency that they can heal now. IE they need to match WHM.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Aspected Benefic is 250 Potency. Adjust this value for the 5% Healing bonus from Nocturnal Sect and floor for floor(250 * 1.05) = 262 Potency.

Shield is now 130% of the healed amount. floor(262 * 1.3) = 340 Potency

262 + 340 Potency = 602 Potency.

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I'm testing them in game with the exact same gear, and adding 130% to my A.Bene's is about 100 healing~ less than doubling Adlo. If I'm doing my math wrong, then I'm wrong. But it seems to me that A.Bene is still weaker.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

I'm testing them in game with the exact same gear, and adding 130% to my A.Bene's is about 100 healing~ less than doubling Adlo. If I'm doing my math wrong, then I'm wrong. But it seems to me that A.Bene is still weaker.

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Healing is weaker. Shields are stronger. Total potency is higher.

You might see a heal of 1000, but your shield on aspected benefic is now 1300.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

I'm testing them in game with the exact same gear, and adding 130% to my A.Bene's is about 100 healing~ less than doubling Adlo. If I'm doing my math wrong, then I'm wrong. But it seems to me that A.Bene is still weaker.

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If you heal at 1900 with aspected benefic, your shield is 1900 + 30%, not only 1900. It's definitely better than adlo, and you can add synastry 20% potency boost on this.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

I'm testing them in game with the exact same gear, and adding 130% to my A.Bene's is about 100 healing~ less than doubling Adlo. If I'm doing my math wrong, then I'm wrong. But it seems to me that A.Bene is still weaker.

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To be fair to you, no one has actually proven that abilities that state "Nocturnal Sect Potency = w/e" actually gets the boosted amount from the Sect bonus. It would make logical sense if it did, but this is S-E we're talking about here who can do weird things with their programming.

Does your AST have the exact same MND / DET / MD as your SCH? There could be a minor MND difference because different jobs and the weapon secondaries could affect your DET value. This could explain that 100 healing difference. Screenshot of your stats + heal amount would be nice to see too.

This has been something that's been itching at the back of mind for a little bit so it's something I was intend to test for a while but never got around to it. Now's better than never to prove something, lol.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Healing is weaker. Shields are stronger. Total potency is higher.

You might see a heal of 1000, but your shield on aspected benefic is now 1300.

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Which was why I was adding 130% shield to it like I said...

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

Which was why I was adding 130% shield to it like I said...

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Look...math is math. No two ways around it. If it is bugged, that is another matter entirely.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

Which was why I was adding 130% shield to it like I said...

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With same ilvl, my ast does better shield than my scholar (non crit), and even more with synastry.

Changes to AST were needed, absolutely. However, I feel like they went a bit over board with them and buffed every aspect of AST (baseline heals, cooldowns, and buffs). I feel that AST+AST might be a very likely thing; Synastry is likely the most powerful tank CD (+60%~ healing on a single target), CU has become a better/more potent version of Asylum/Sacred Soil, Nocturnal shields are now more powerful than SCH's (combined with having a more powerful Cure II and Medica in Nocturnal, and access to +60% healing makes A Bene a much safer option than Adlo), and longer DPS buffs from cards.

I think the changes were 100% needed, but I have a feeling they went a little overboard with buffing baseline potency, cooldowns, and card buffs.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

Changes to AST were needed, absolutely. However, I feel like they went a bit over board with them and buffed every aspect of AST (baseline heals, cooldowns, and buffs). I feel that AST+AST might be a very likely thing; Synastry is likely the most powerful tank CD (+60%~ healing on a single target), CU has become a better/more potent version of Asylum/Sacred Soil, Nocturnal shields are now more powerful than SCH's (combined with having a more powerful Cure II and Medica in Nocturnal), and longer DPS buffs from cards.

I think the changes were 100% needed, but I have a feeling they went a little overboard with buffing baseline potency, cooldowns, and card buffs.

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Shhhhh.
Don't say that in the presences of other Astros.
You just dug your grave. :C GL

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

-snip-

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Stats are identical, gear is identical, and weapons are the same ilvl. Sch actually has 12 less mnd than ast (sch is 908 mnd, ast is 920), but still getting about 100 points more (it's not 100 potency, but rather A.Bene is about 3.9k~ in total while Adlo is just over 4k).

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

Stats are identical, gear is identical, and weapons are the same ilvl. Sch actually has 12 less mnd than ast (sch is 908 mnd, ast is 920), but still getting about 100 points more (it's not 100 potency, but rather A.Bene is about 3.9k~ in total while Adlo is just over 4k).

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Any DET on either weapon? Same ilvl doesn't actually mean same secondaries.

With that being said the 12 MND less but doing more healing kinda proves a point at this juncture. I'll probably end up messing around with this tonight just to get something more concrete.