Let Players Speed Run Again

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Someone in full HA is basically guaranteed to be a more skilled and experienced player than someone in full soldiery. But this is going off on a tangent.

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Er, not really, person in HA could've bought those coils and person in soldiery could be an alt character, oh the possibilities are endless!

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

A correct analogy would be working and getting paid per project. More projects = more money!

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But if you rushed those projects they cant be professionally made! so... less money...

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Originally Posted by EZ5902

But if you rushed those projects they cant be professionally made! so... less money...

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It doesn't matter how fast you complete these dungeons or 'projects'. You're still being paid the exact amount of Tomestone of sold/Poetics if you spend 10 minutes or 80 minutes completing the dungeon. So their analogy is correct in this case.

The fact of the matter is, there is a lot of players across all games, not just MMOs, that always want to do things in the most efficient matter. If they can do a dungeon in 10 minutes rather than 25, they'll do it, me included. That being said, tanks should really get into the habit of asking if people want to speed run rather than taking off the starting line and dying within 10 seconds because they are undergeared/healer is undergeared/dps are horrible aoe comp, like MNK/MNK

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

I remember posting earlier in this thread that the majority of players will default to doing things that are efficient. All the proof I need is how players are now running dungeons now for relic items.

The minority - those who want to be slow and inefficient - should stick to making a linkshell then run dungeons that way.

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Why should I have to stick to a linkshell to do that? Is DF for fast people only? Also in terms of slower people being the minority you in no way shape or form have relevant proof that is the case. Furthermore I have read this from the first page to last, and see more post in regards to disliking SR's then those who like them. However, far be it from me to claim that people who like speed runs are in the minority. Fact is the DF is there for everybody. You choose to use it so you get exactly what DF has to offer. If you don't like it, then that's your problem not mine.

If anything there need to be more Countermeashures put in place in all dungeons to prevent speed running and just give more tombs to help out new people

More countermeasures would mean fewer people queueing for them due to not wanting to bother with it. Worse still, adding more incentives to help new people will only invite more speed runners to try and jump into anything and everything they can with new people, purely to farm first-timer bonuses.

It's unfortunately a bit of a paradox. More countermeasures = longer queues/fewer people running it, but more bonuses = more speed runners.

Dungeons are faceroll as it is. If you want to faceroll anymore, than feel free to go in with friends. Shit, this is why I can't stand these forums.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Dungeons are faceroll as it is. If you want to faceroll anymore, than feel free to go in with friends. Shit, this is why I can't stand these forums.

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Yes, they are face rolls. But they are adding more force stops. Making it longer. If they are going to make them stupid easy, might as well make it fast and painless.

Exactly. If SE don't want people to speed run, then they need to make trash mobs have something that makes it unwise to speed run. Not make a roadblock that requires you to kill four wolves to make something pop up and then three mobs to make the wall crumble (what?). Once again, Pharos Sirius 2.1 is currently the only dungeon that made speed running almost (if not, completely) impossible. Not because of roadblocks (even if there were three), but because trash mobs had certain abilities that would make the healer throw their system out of the window if a tank dared to pull an extra set of mobs.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Yes, they are face rolls. But they are adding more force stops. Making it longer. If they are going to make them stupid easy, might as well make it fast and painless.

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Cause dungeons are really painful, right? O.o

They really are not that painful, and the dungeons to this point can be sped run to a point, just not at the extent as they used to before.

The dungeons are fine and you need to stop whining. Same with the poetic cap removal.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

If they can do a dungeon in 10 minutes rather than 25, they'll do it, me included. That being said, tanks should really get into the habit of asking if people want to speed run rather than taking off the starting line and dying within 10 seconds because they are undergeared/healer is undergeared/dps are horrible aoe comp, like MNK/MNK

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Heyyy, i'm a MNK ilv 119 and i kill a mob very fast. U are right about we having few worthy AOEs but we can PB>Rockbreaker 5 times in a row. And even if we don't have PB at the time, we can use the speed run to kill all mobs one by one very fast because we don't need to rebuild GL3 between packs of mobs, all mobs are there. We start killing the more annoying or strong ones to the weakest ones, for each mob killed more easy to healer keep u tanks up. I've been in more speed runs that i can count and no Tank complained about me and i have 805 comendations already. Besides bosses dies way faster with a good MNK around.

i agree with you Jinrya. All mechanics to stop the speed/aoe runs are to give the single target dps more meaning. Which per se isn't that bad. but it's a very poor way of implementing/forcing it.
Instead they should decrease trash and give us more bigger/Halfbosses, where single Target dps can shine. But sadly its always the same. positioning got watered down already cause of the stupid aoe, cone aoe cone trash mob moves. tanking isnt much fun, no matter if you speed run or not. I rather prefer to time a stun, or a spirit within cause it MATTERS, then to contantly dance around cone cone cone aoe aoe ...

no wonder ppl speedrun or go tank whm blm blm and holy/flare the shit out of the mobs. it's the only effective way and to me nuking them down is far more fun then contantly avoiding aoes/cones. It's boring and lacks any kind of creativity so, as you said: either give us better dungeons (optics are nice always, but they are boring and easy 1 day after they go live) or let us speedrun them better.

i would ofc prefer better mechanics since obviously all creative content goes to coils and weekly lockout content, the majoriy of the content added is extremely dull.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Cause dungeons are really painful, right? O.o

They really are not that painful, and the dungeons to this point can be sped run to a point, just not at the extent as they used to before.

The dungeons are fine and you need to stop whining. Same with the poetic cap removal.

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whatever, white knight keep dreaming.

Actually, in my opinion, the current solution in the dungeons is trying to cater to both the speed runner and the player that just hit the item level requirement for the dungeon or someone new to the dungeon.
It's a fair middle ground.

If you make Trash harder to the point it is a challenge for ilvl110+ players, you must raise the level cap, which is not inline the ilvl 90 drops in there.
The other solution would be to reimplement the levelsynch to High level and Expert dungeons and have a challenge, so that you can see the dungeon is not too easy, you are just way too overgeared.

You just cannot make every one happy.
tbh, I hope you stay unhappy in this regard.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

Actually, in my opinion, the current solution in the dungeons is trying to cater to both the speed runner and the player that just hit the item level requirement for the dungeon or someone new to the dungeon.
It's a fair middle ground.

If you make Trash harder to the point it is a challenge for ilvl110+ players, you must raise the level cap, which is not inline the ilvl 90 drops in there.
The other solution would be to reimplement the levelsynch to High level and Expert dungeons and have a challenge, so that you can see the dungeon is not too easy, you are just way too overgeared.

You just cannot make every one happy.
tbh, I hope you stay unhappy in this regard.

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it's very easy to make me happy. Just SE does everything wrong about it. I can think of several things they can do way better than they do now.

Taking away the stop zones in every area is a good start. You have no real counter-argument other than to say no basically. If there were no stop zones, people can go what ever speed they want. The argument goes back and further except to this regard, if you have your way people can ONLY go slow. Where in my cause you can go slow or fast, everyone wins


You have a keyboard type you want to go slow. If they doen't want to then when they die over and over they'll get the hint. If they boot you, you want to go slow anyway so whats another 10 minute wait before the next group?

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Taking away the stop zones in every area is a good start. You have no real counter-argument other than to say no basically.

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From a game designer point of view [not for this game, obviously]: rewards. Rewards tend to be balanced around the idea "how long will it take the average player to complete X". Sometimes the risk factor (chance for failure) is also factored, but the #1 point is how long will it take for X to be done and how fast we want Y to be awarded. Stop gaps (locked doors, death traps, spawn triggers) are all tools that can be used to enforce the speed that is desired to meet the expected completion time averages.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Here's why this is a bad idea: (brace yourself, I'll be editing this to exceed the character limit)

From a healer's perspective - Nothing is more boring to me than when a tank just pulls everything then I'm pretty much auto-pilot healing repeatedly for the next minute or so while everyone else spams AoEs ad-nauseum. Plus, you know, if I'm not stuck healing constantly, I CAN help fight. . .

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If you aren't DPSing as a healer even if your tank pulls the whole dungeon you're not doing something right. You should always be able to dps and heal regardless of the pull size if even moderately geared. That's what being a good healer is.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

If you aren't DPSing as a healer even if your tank pulls the whole dungeon you're not doing something right. You should always be able to dps and heal regardless of the pull size if even moderately geared.

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Agreed. I don't care if it's just shadow flare and throwing a few DoTs on as SCH, or WHM tossing on the DS>Regen, then Swiftcast>Holy. Still plenty of room to squeeze some damage in, and I still think many WHMs forget that Holy does stun which can help the tank take less damage.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

it's very easy to make me happy. Just SE does everything wrong about it....Where in my cause you can go slow or fast, everyone wins...

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Sadly, everyone does not win in your scenario. Look at the situation from the SE side. In the past with AK / WP speed runs, there was griefing against non speed runners or specific classes or players that just were not that great at the game and were not capable of speed runs. The outcry led to folks leaving the game. In your situation, you are saying that those who want to go at a slower pace can bash their heads with wipes over and over and then be kicked or create a party finder group? This right here then takes the whole point of the duty finder away from them to join a random group quickly and get content done, but it makes you happy.. so that's all that matters am I right? To you perhaps that really is all that matters, to SE though if players are leaving the game due to speed runs being the forced and norm, then it is lost revenue... eventually you won't have a game to play if there is no money to support it.

Believe it or not, but the casuals and slow pacers actually pay the bills, the elite raiders, edge of your seat speed runners are not the majority. I myself enjoy speed runs and I would rather do them because I want to get in and out ASAP, but I also understand why some things are done in this game to slow the pace a little and I accept that since I still enjoy the game. If speed running is a make or break for you, then it is very possible that FF14 just isn't the game for you any longer. No one can make that choice but you. I hope you find a sense of patience and can slow yourself down a moment to actually enjoy the game you are playing.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

If you aren't DPSing as a healer even if your tank pulls the whole dungeon you're not doing something right. You should always be able to dps and heal regardless of the pull size if even moderately geared.

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Not entirely true...

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Originally Posted by technole

Agreed. I don't care if it's just shadow flare and throwing a few DoTs on as SCH, or WHM tossing on the DS>Regen, then Swiftcast>Holy. Still plenty of room to squeeze some damage in, and I still think many WHMs forget that Holy does stun which can help the tank take less damage.

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Again, not entirely true...

And here's why: You both fail to even look at the possibilities of the tank and his/her gear in question, before assuming the healer is not doing something right. I've been in this situation when I cast SC and shadowflare and before my heal could hit the tank he was dead.

Also regarding Holy, even with Swiftcast, start up on this power lags and by then the tank and healer can take quite a lot of damage before the stun takes effect. Not saying it's impossible, but it's more situational, than it is as black & white as the two of you put it...

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

Not entirely true...

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Maybe this is a case of 'git gud'? I've done countless expert roulettes with tanks that were no higher than i95-100, and as long as they do some semblance of a cooldown rotation it's easy peazy.

First big pull:

-SS+Eye for an eye before first pull
-Cleric Stance
-Pre enable swift cast
-Holy x 3
-Benediction
-Holy x 3

And by that point the pull should be dead. On future pulls when you don't have bene, that's when you weave in divine seal and regen.

Obviously if you have a i95 tank who uses 0 cooldowns you won't be able to keep them up. But those tanks wouldn't want to do speed runs in the first place. Tanks who aren't geared in 99% of cases won't be experienced or willing to do speed runs. So your second point is moot.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

If you aren't DPSing as a healer even if your tank pulls the whole dungeon you're not doing something right. You should always be able to dps and heal regardless of the pull size if even moderately geared.

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Good point. However, if your tank pulls more than he can handle or perhaps isn't using his cooldowns, and is eating a ton of damage, I'd say your priority - as a healer, let's remember that - is HEALING. The key words missed there were "if I'm not stuck healing constantly"

We can play the what if game, but fact is there were some very good points made there that you may or may not agree with. But don't miss the big picture for a small what if scenario.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Good point. However, if your tank pulls more than he can handle or perhaps isn't using his cooldowns, and is eating a ton of damage, I'd say your priority - as a healer, let's remember that - is HEALING. The key words missed there were "if I'm not stuck healing constantly"

We can play the what if game, but fact is there were some very good points made there that you may or may not agree with. But don't miss the big picture for a small what if scenario.

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If your tank doesn't use his cooldowns he shouldn't be speed running or pulling big groups, period. There's no what-ifs when it comes to that.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

Hot air

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Of course you'd get upset when someone calls you out on a valid point... I actually expected that. Perhaps you should read your post again... "no higher than 90-100 ilvl" what dungeon do you know, outside of primals and coils has this high of a requirement? Know what you're talking about before you come at me like that. And AGAIN, you quote a distinct situation where you can DPS. Hence the word situational...

So put some salt, pepper and paprika and whatever other seasoning you prefer on your "git good" and eat those words.

The rest of your post you should have probably just deleted, because you pretty much typed nonsense...

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

Of course you'd get upset when someone calls you out on a valid point... I actually expected that. Perhaps you should read your post again... "no higher than 90-100 ilvl" what dungeon do you know, outside of primals and coils has this high of a requirement? Know what you're talking about before you come at me like that. So put some salt, pepper and paprika and whatever other seasoning you prefer on your "git good" and eat those words.

The rest of your post you should have probably just deleted, because you pretty much typed nonsense...

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What expert dungeon do you know has tanks trying to speed run or pull big groups that aren't at least i90? If your tank is below that and trying to speed run any new dungeon, he's terrible and expecting his healer to carry him.

Your only point was basically "what if your tank sucks / is undergeared and does big pulls anyways?". Simple, let them die. I also like how a proper rotation and statements of badly geared / bad tanks attempting to do speed runs being bad is "hot air".

As far as "knowing what I'm talking about", I'm a i130 WHM with t13 on farm. I'd say that adds to my credibility a lot more than anything you can say. "Git Gud" if you think that healers shouldn't dps in almost any and every dungeon situation.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

What expert dungeon do you know has tanks trying to speed run or pull big groups that aren't at least i90? If your tank is below that and trying to speed run any new dungeon, he's terrible.

Your only point was basically "what if your tank sucks / is undergeared and does big pulls anyways?". Simple, let them die.

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LOL... I see discussion with you is pointless... I never put in any "what-ifs," that's your assumption of the word I used, which was "situational"

lern2reed...

I've seen MANY tanks enter dungeons with bare bone ilvls with a mix of healer and dps accessories and pull big mobs, when their HP is less than some DPS on the team. You need to queue DF sometime and get off your static or FC runs to see what I'm talking about.

EDIT: Now I see here we go with "I farm coils all day, so I am right and you are wrong." I'm sorry for stepping on your toes when you said the sky was red, you're right... I'll go back to reality.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

I also like how a proper rotation and statements of badly geared / bad tanks attempting to do speed runs being bad is "hot air".

As far as "knowing what I'm talking about", I'm a i130 WHM with t13 on farm. I'd say that adds to my credibility a lot more than anything you can say. "Git Gud" if you think that healers shouldn't dps in almost any and every dungeon situation.

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Since you decided to add more after this post I'll respond to this as well here. I never said healers can't DPS, it's their call if they want to or not and it's also situational at times where they can't...
Don't put words in my mouth because you fail to comprehend what I am actually saying...

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

LOL... I see discussion with you is pointless... I never put in any "what-ifs," that's your assumption of the word I used, which was "situational"

lern2reed...

I've seen MANY tanks enter dungeons with bare bone ilvls with a mix of healer and dps accessories and pull big mobs, when their HP is less than some DPS on the team. You need to queue DF sometime and get off your static or FC runs to see what I'm talking about.

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I DF daily and never see tanks with less HP than DPS pulling like that. Maybe you've just had incredibly bad experiences. Or me good experiences. /shrug

And again, good healers should dps in EVERY dungeon situation. No "what-ifs" about it.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

I DF daily and never see tanks with less HP than DPS pulling like that. Maybe you've just had incredibly bad experiences. Or me good experiences. /shrug

And again, good healers should dps in EVERY dungeon situation. No "what-ifs" about it.

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You should stick to your statics, cause you clearly don't know what you are talking about... Healers DPS if they can/will, not because you say so. It's their call to do so, because guess what, let me be your tank and I die several times because you fail to heal but rather DPS, you will be voted off the team.

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

You should stick to your statics, cause you clearly don't know what you are talking about... Healers DPS if they can/will, not because you say so. It's their call to do so, because guess what, let me be your tank and I die several times because you fail to heal but rather DPS, you will be voted off the team.

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I never said all healers have to dps. I'm saying GOOD healers should dps. And healers that DPS are good. And good healers that DPS don't let their tanks die.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

I never said all healers have to dps. I never said they should dps. I'm saying GOOD healers should dps. And good healers that DPS don't let their tanks die.

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Fair enough... and I will accept that, because that is correct. And with that I will retract a bit of my statement that you don't know what you're talking about because in this quote you do and I will admit that.

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

Also regarding Holy, even with Swiftcast, start up on this power lags and by then the tank and healer can take quite a lot of damage before the stun takes effect. Not saying it's impossible, but it's more situational, than it is as black & white as the two of you put it...

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False, you can force the stun to take effect immediately if you know what you're doing.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

False, you can force the stun to take effect immediately if you know what you're doing.

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Ellatrix, Don't start with me. You already know you and I, hell you and the world even, rarely see eye to eye on anything...

Back to the Coils with ye...

No, it's true. If you use an oGCD, the previous GCD will have damage (and effects) register immediately.

You're welcome.

Also works well for stuff like Butcher's Block/Rage of Halone for snap threat.

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Originally Posted by Cerick

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People leave this game for many reasons, mostly because SE lies half the time about something, or makes something needlessly dumber than it should be. Coil Reward System/Chocobo raising/housing/Wedding/FATES/Relic/PVP... I can go onto how every single on of these things are bad and how they could be done better. You could just look at every thread on the forum and one of the things I mentioned will be there.

If you can't handle going fast, then you shouldn't be using duty finder, you should be using party finder to find like-minded individuals. I have nothing against that, I would go any speed the party wants. Slow or fast, that's up to my party. However I am not going to sit there and pretend to be happy about another dumb system trying to "artificially" make something longer than it is. If a party can handle pulling everything between each boss I should be able to.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

...snip...If you can't handle going fast, then you shouldn't be using duty finder, you should be using party finder to find like-minded individuals. I have nothing against that, I would go any speed the party wants...snip....

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So let me get this straight. If someone uses a party finder and specifies they want to go slow (aka the pace the game was developed) and you (joined that party?) you would go the speed they wanted and not have a problem with it?

And just for the record, not that you said this, I think it is backwards to use the party finder for "pug groups" and the DF for "pros". This is the only mmo I've seen ever have that mentality. It's "Pick up Group" for crying out loud. That term has been around forever and applies to all kinds of things. "Never know what you'll get" has always been synonymous with it as well.

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Originally Posted by Stihllodeing

I think it is backwards to use the party finder for "pug groups" and the DF for "pros"

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JP datacenters do this. Strangely, JP servers also have significantly higher clear rates on all content.

It isn't backwards at all, because you can continue to practice with a PF group, as well as have a common connection when going to learn content. In DF, everyone just executes their role and the boss dies. It's much better, and it would be much nicer just to be able to queue DF and expect to farm instead of run into scrubs who say "hi im new btw i dont know anything" and think it's ok and not a gross waste of time for the other people unfortunate enough to be queued into that party.

I cannot speak for JP Servers. Many ppl glorifiy them, maybe you should switch if to a JP Server.

Whenever I open Partyfinder it looks a bit like this:
Turn X - KILL EXP 1 FAIL -> KICK
Primal Y - KNOW YOUR STUFF, NO NOOBS
SELLING COIL, ALL PRIMALS, MOUNT...
the list goes on..

Learning parties do pop from time to time, but they die after the 60 mins timer.

Maybe your thinking is not backwards in Japan Servers but here it definately is.

Yea and people struggle to clear things because they don't care about their own performance in a group setting.

Pushing limits in speed runs for dungeon content translates well into performance in raid content.

Right. And we mass pull and spam aoes in Coil while our healers DPS, right? Or wait, now they tank now too, right?