The cycle of disbanding that keep casuals from doing content

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

You also continuously ignore the main method vets help newer players: posting guides so that they don't have to spend time doing things that don't work or figure out how something works.

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Let me extract it for you.

Also no, a party that says only "need clear :3" is not someone who deserves to be carried to a clear just because they put up a PF. By that same logic, if I made a PF to farm T4 that said "all loot is locked to me for craft/desynth" I deserve to have 7 people be my slaves until such a time that I choose to disband the party.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

.. posting guides ...

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I thank Mr. Happy for posting guides. Where are your guides? As far as I know Mr. Happy is doing all the work for you.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

.
.. "need clear :3" is not someone who deserves to be carried ..

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So much false assumptions. Sure they need a clear, but that is does not equal need carry. Actually it means for those that also need a clear can join them and everyone benefits together. And they are in no ways looking for "7 people be my slaves until such a time that I choose to disband the party"

So "need clear" is no way equal or equivalent to "all loot is locked to me for craft/desynth".

Only thing keeping more casual players from getting into raiding is the design of MMO progression these days. EVERY SINGLE TIER group gear makes older raid content irrelevant.

If group gear was ilvl 80 groups would still be forming to progress through 1-5 because it would be worth while to do. Instead if your not doing turn 10 raiding is 100% pointless.

Take it up with the people who champion content designed like this if you want to get into raiding.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

don't pretend the problem does NOT exist nor you get to pretend that it is easy to solve.

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I never said it's easy to solve. I said it's hard, since it requires people to actually man up and take things into their hands instead of waiting to be spoonfed.

Hard, but doable. Do it. Like all raiding statics and FCs did before you. ("you" as a general term. Not "you" specifically, as I do not know your specific situation).

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

...actually man up and take things into their hands instead of waiting to be spoonfed.

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"Man up"? Really misogynist term there now, as if there are no female players.

"Spoonfed"? The OP is not asking to be spoonfed nor are the majority of the players. Don't make these groundless false accusation.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

...Hard, but doable. ...

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Yep hard to find a static, hard to create a static, hard to build a static, and hard to manage/maintain a static. And only doable to the extent that people want to work together. So that is why I will always advocate that players be more inclusive and look to work together and help everyone. And if some them are expressing their frustration and the difficulty they are having, cut them some slack and give the benefit of the doubt that they are doing all they know or all they can to progress and that they are not asking to be "spoonfed". Empathize with them and not be dismissive of them.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

"Man up"? Really misogynist term there now, as if there are no female players.

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Seriously? Ok, "woman up", then? Are you really debating about this, now?

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Yep hard to find a static, hard to create a static, hard to build a static, and hard to manage/maintain a static. And only doable to the extent that people want to work together. So that is why I will always advocate that players be more inclusive and look to work together and help everyone.

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And what exactly does "being more inclusive" and "work together and help everyone" means, in practical terms, exactly?

Just report discrimination/harassment and move on. Don't bring your political ideology onto this forum, we have enough of it in the real world.

Look, those who are struggling have asked what to do. Those who have successfully completed this content have explained what they did to become successful and recommended those struggling to do the same. (take the initiative, put in the effort, make a group yourself, don't passively wait for it to happen etc). The response from the unsuccessful has been largely "that's not good enough. YOU need to come help me" (you being raiders/endgamers that know these fights) on the principle of empathy or some such.

you don't like the answer, then go find your own solution. Trouble is finding your own way takes initiative and effort. The exact prescription that is apparently so hard to swallow. Don't act as though successful raiders don't understand. No one is born a successful endgame player. We all started fresh newbies sometime somewhere without any connections or skill. It may be this game 4 months ago or it may be EQ 20 years ago. We all did exactly what we are advocating at some point. That is how we got to where we are.

Those who have done it have told you how they did it so you can help yourself do the same. If that isn't good enough for you then there's nothing else to discuss. Follow the well trodden path or go blaze your own.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Look, those who are struggling have asked what to do. Those who have successfully completed this content have explained what they did to become successful and recommended those struggling to do the same. (take the initiative, put in the effort, make a group yourself, don't passively wait for it to happen etc). The response from the unsuccessful has been largely "that's not good enough. YOU need to come help me" (you being raiders/endgamers that know these fights) on the principle of empathy or some such.

you don't like the answer, then go find your own solution. Trouble is finding your own way takes initiative and effort. The exact prescription that is apparently so hard to swallow. Don't act as though successful raiders don't understand. No one is born a successful endgame player. We all started fresh newbies sometime somewhere without any connections or skill. It may be this game 4 months ago or it may be EQ 20 years ago. We all did exactly what we are advocating at some point. That is how we got to where we are.

Those who have done it have told you how they did it so you can help yourself do the same. If that isn't good enough for you then there's nothing else to discuss. Follow the well trodden path or go blaze your own

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/thread

I don't think there's anything more to say than this.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

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That is how men are treated this days. Don't even try to deny it.

I'm fully willing and able to help kill T5. If the people are COMPETENT. But all we see day in and day out on these forums are people crying because divebombs or conflags or whatever else are too hard. If you just can't fill a group and your on Couerl. Tell me what u need (heal, tank, dps) and I'll do it. If you can't beat it because your incapable of following a simple simon says mechanic... You are beyond any competent players help and are asking for a carry.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Look, those who are struggling have asked what to do. Those who have successfully completed this content have explained what they did to become successful and recommended those struggling to do the same. (take the initiative, put in the effort, make a group yourself, don't passively wait for it to happen etc). The response from the unsuccessful has been largely "that's not good enough. YOU need to come help me" (you being raiders/endgamers that know these fights) on the principle of empathy or some such.

you don't like the answer, then go find your own solution. Trouble is finding your own way takes initiative and effort. The exact prescription that is apparently so hard to swallow. Don't act as though successful raiders don't understand. No one is born a successful endgame player. We all started fresh newbies sometime somewhere without any connections or skill. It may be this game 4 months ago or it may be EQ 20 years ago. We all did exactly what we are advocating at some point. That is how we got to where we are.

Those who have done it have told you how they did it so you can help yourself do the same. If that isn't good enough for you then there's nothing else to discuss. Follow the well trodden path or go blaze your own.

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What a great second post on the forums. I'd just add that if you can't do this content because of time restrictions, that sucks but its just how these games work.

and thats why I decided to do never do any coils. since I heared about it. (A year ago)
You`ll just getting frustrated and youre wasting time.
Im an easy going good gamer, but I -dont- want to turn into a hardcore gamer/Nerd, what coils and those super hard primals runs need. In my opinion.

Do it like me: just Ignore!
There`s plenty of other stuff to do, that is worth the time and effort. o_o

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

and thats why I decided to do never do any coils. since I heared about it. (A year ago)
You`ll just getting frustrated and youre wasting time.
Im an easy going good gamer, but I -dont- want to turn into a hardcore gamer/Nerd, what coils and those super hard primals runs need. In my opinion.

Do it like me: just Ignore!
There`s plenty of other stuff to do, that is worth the time and effort. o_o

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Right, cause being able to run coil = being hardcore / nerd.

Way to go :P

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

and thats why I decided to do never do any coils. since I heared about it. (A year ago)
You`ll just getting frustrated and youre wasting time.
Im an easy going good gamer, but I -dont- want to turn into a hardcore gamer/Nerd, what coils and those super hard primals runs need. In my opinion.

Do it like me: just Ignore!
There`s plenty of other stuff to do, that is worth the time and effort. o_o

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Just saying... FFXIV raiders prolly play this game the least of anyone. There isn't really much to do. Basically log on 3 nights a week for about 3 hours.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Empathize with them and not be dismissive of them.

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That's 99.9999999% impossible with these types.

I mostly want to second some of the things that have been said by Zarzak and Aana

The game does not reward players for going back to help newer players in old content. The people who are clearing are telling you how they did it, so take their advice or don't. But i also wanted to say that while I've never sold a run, I absolutely believe it has it's place. I'm sorry, but if i have all my glamours, if i have my furniture, why should I go back to this content?! Sure, from time to time i help people just because they ask, but more often than not doing so just frustrates me. It starts like this:

They ask for my help, and instead of saying "NO i will not tank M.EX for you so i can see the fending ribbon drop for the ump-teenth time", i go ahead an go in. Then, when it's all done, when the hour(s) is/are spent and the wipes are over, what do I get?

"Laesha, is there anything I can do for you in return? Would you like this Kingly Whisker that just dropped into my inventory?" no :(


"Hey, you're so awesome for helping us out of the goodness of your heart. Is your FC recruiting active members?" No :(

or even,

"Thank you so much for your time, Laesha. You're amazing. Please let me know if you need anything fro me in the future," No ;(

They're usually too busy patting themselves on the back and ogling gear that is 10 or more ilv's lower than what they already have. Honest to god, the lack of gratitude is staggering in the VAST majority of cases. Even with all that aside, I used to help more often. Then I started having to carry around all my T5 loot so i could link every piece so fools would listen to what i had to say, for the help that they ASKED ME FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE. Then, after spending the entire fight on the floor, despite the fact that i spend more MP raising them than I do healing the raid, they have the gall to roll on the drops. I've even seen them ask members to pass so they could have it. Un-freaking-believable. I hardly consider myself elite, or even Hardcore. I'm still working on T9. But come on. This issue is FAR from one sided. I've been there. I get it. I really do. But empathy only goes so far. Opportunity cost is real, especially when even asking for genuine gratitude seems to be too much to ask. The least new players can do for themselves is keep putting up PF'ers. Maybe they'll get lucky and some nice raid leader will go in to help, see that they play well, and offer them a spot, or a sub spot. (something that's happened to me at least half a dozen times) The offer usually starts with something like "hey, are you in a permanent static?"

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Originally Posted by Aana

... YOU need to come help me" (you being raiders/endgamers that know these fights) on the principle of empathy or some such.

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I don't understand why the insistence on twisting the word or meaning of what the OP has written or what the thread is about. All that is being asked if lend a hand if you can. What is so wrong about that?

Instead of empathy, we see all sorts of disses directed at the OP and newer players. That is addition to the ever preset clears and this gives the impression that newer players and newbie are being treated with contempt and disdain all the while taking there gil like the McDonald's happy meal bandit.

Sure being proactive help, but it only goes so far because none of this stuff is easy. The OP has been proactive, has been trying, did a lot of waiting, and had a lot of frustration. The OP nor players like the OP is asking to be spoonfed. We are asking that people do NOT go out of their way to deliberately make things harder. And little empathy on the forums goes a long way, instead of all the dismissive missives and name calling.

Additionally being proactive goes beyond just clearing content. We should be proactive about building the community that is more inclusive and more accepting of all players. This helps the game and help everyone, because this is enlightened self interest. The more people that clear the gated contented the more people that can be available to tackle the next/new gated content.

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Originally Posted by Laesha

I mostly want to second some of the things that have been said by Zarzak and Aana

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Honestly I'm not wanting anything out of it really.. I actually enjoy a lot of the fights. But I'm NOT going to go in and watch someone fail to move out of a landslide OVER. AND OVER. AND OVER. AND OVER. AND OVER.

If you can't handle a simple mechanic.... Don't ask me for help. Like I said if your issue is "we can't fill the group, we don't have enough dps, our tank isn't geared enough, our healer isn't able to keep us all up"

Ok fine. That can be a mix of gear/skill causing the issue. I'll come tank it, or dps it, or heal it to give you the bump you need to win. But if the issue is "we can't win because everyone is retarded and being knocked off the edge...

No. Go play frogger for a while to learn how to move out of the way of bad things then come back.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

snip

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Short version.. Like I've said a few times. The issue is that the content is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. That is Square's fk up. They make it so anyone who isn't on the end of progression is better off going to their dungeons, getting the <insert top tier currency here> and buying gear off a merchant. Instead of going and farming coil 1-9.

If 1-5 was still a relevant part of gearing up then you would have a lot more skilled players being involved due to alt classes, helping friends with alt classes, helping new friends, etc. As it is though a new friend starts the game and hits 50 I'm going to say

"ok go do dungeons and buy a full set of soldiery/work on your poetic. If you really want to get ilvl up asap mix in some CT2 to get sands/oils for the soldiery while you wait on poetic"

Note that at no point would I even suggest my friend (even if I could solo the content for him) do Coil 1-9*, CT1, or any primal*.

*I may do a few runs of 9 to try for a weapon. And tell him to do shiva if it comes up for the bracer. But this wouldn't be something I'd tell him to rely on or really worry about.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

Honestly I'm not wanting anything out of it really.. I actually enjoy a lot of the fights. But I'm NOT going to go in and watch someone fail to move out of a landslide OVER. AND OVER. AND OVER. AND OVER. AND OVER....

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And no one is asking you do to that. Do what you feel comfortable with. But if it is one too many wipes, it is perfectly fine to leave or vote abandon. Just DO not rage quit and cuss everyone else out on the way out. It is really not that hard to do. Sometimes people just need the reps to learn that, and some need more reps than others. Even if I already cleared and I have all the drops I wanted, I thank everyone for their help for practice even if we don't clear and I encourage everyone to keep at it.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

... That is Square's fk up. They make it so anyone who isn't on the end of progression is better off going to their dungeons, getting the <insert top tier currency here> and buying gear off a merchant. Instead of going and farming coil 1-9....

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That is SE being smart. They know that people have limited time and limited patience. Because as it stand too many players can't farm SCoB to start with because they couldn't get a static before 2.4. Heck even with statics, I know a static that been trying for at least the past 2 months and they still have NOT 1-shot T6 and only get the accidental T6 clears or die at 1% over and over. People need a way to move forward, and getting them stuck in catch-22, no static to farm SCoB, and must have cleared SCoB to be in a static. The breakthrough for the catch-22 can be possible by people being more inclusive.

Empathy or no the information has been reiterated. There is also a fine line between "asking to lend a hand if you can" (which tons of people stated in this very thread that they already do anyway) and the expectation that people help you on principle. A line that has been jumped back and forth over repeatedly whenever it's convenient.

"We are asking that people do NOT go out of their way to deliberately make things harder."
Who's deliberately making things harder? That 1 post from like 10 pages ago that says to come buy his runs? Who exactly is deliberately making newbies life harder?

It doesn't change the fact that every single successful raider to ever walk the earth was a newbie once and found a way via the tried and true conventional methods described ad nauseum on this forum. Why is telling others to do the same bad? We aren't telling people to do things we ourselves haven't done, yet this is not a satisfactory answer. I do not understand why this isn't good enough when it has been for every successful endgame player as long as MMOs have existed.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

I don't understand why the insistence on twisting the word or meaning of what the OP has written or what the thread is about. All that is being asked if lend a hand if you can. What is so wrong about that?

Instead of empathy, we see all sorts of disses directed at the OP and newer players. That is addition to the ever preset clears and this gives the impression that newer players and newbie are being treated with contempt and disdain all the while taking there gil like the McDonald's happy meal bandit.

Sure being proactive help, but it only goes so far because none of this stuff is easy. The OP has been proactive, has been trying, did a lot of waiting, and had a lot of frustration. The OP nor players like the OP is asking to be spoonfed. We are asking that people do NOT go out of their way to deliberately make things harder. And little empathy on the forums goes a long way, instead of all the dismissive missives and name calling.

Additionally being proactive goes beyond just clearing content. We should be proactive about building the community that is more inclusive and more accepting of all players. This helps the game and help everyone, because this is enlightened self interest. The more people that clear the gated contented the more people that can be available to tackle the next/new gated content.

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You ask for empathy yet you can't empathize with the people clearing the content and the fact not all of them have the time in the world. It doesn't help that your argument is falling upon deaf ears because of the fact you insist on equating all those "unhelpful clear people" = "people selling run after run to line their pockets with Gil". For someone speaking about the proactivity of building the community, broadly generalizing ALL raiders as clear sellers certainly doesn't help your argument about building a greater community by falsely vilifying every single raiders and content clearers and also showing great contempt for them. If you want empathy, you should learn to empathize as well.

Just for the record, I'm a casual raider at heart. I work a full time job that has recently seen me work 24 days out of a full four weeks. I am also the leader and organizer for my static. We didn't begin the static until a few weeks after 2.3s launch and from there I had myself, two other people from my FC, and two others who were maybe's. That's grown into a full five man static within my FC and three "PUGs" I picked up while sifting through players on our weekly clears. I've gone through at least four different BRDs and I didn't even touch T9 until we had a stable BRD position. For the first several weeks, I had to balance everyone's schedule to suit our raiding times as people had various real life commitments in the evenings at times, myself included. During our T9 practices, I was worked 22 days in a row, causing more complications for me to set up our static as I had to spend time during the week to ensure everyone was available at X day and Y time.

We cleared T9 half a week before 2.4 came out and it was the most exhilarating pleasure ever to behold in my MMO career.

My time is now spent gearing myself and my allies up for T10 and onwards, as we still have quite a bit of catch up to do. I still am busy organizing and doing my real life commitments, and I don't have time in my gaming schedule to help out new players because I just do not have the time. While helping the community out by helping random strangers is commendable, I unfortunately don't have the time for that. If you're going to vilify me for saying that, then I take great offense to your argument as a whole.

So! Let's be real here:

-There's a group of players who will never be competent enough to clear Coil effectively (you can see that on how limiting some players are in Syrcus Tower).
-There's a group of player who will never be able to join a static because of their erratic real life commitments. I can sympathize for this sect of players.
-Casual's doesn't necessarily mean bad. It just means their time frames are limited and players will need to work around these constraints to be successful.
-Raiders and players who clear content DOES NOT mean they are selling runs
-Not all players have the time to assist other players for the betterment of the community
-Players wanting to clear content will need to work on building their network and finding like players to suit their time frames and have the competency to clear content.
-Perseverance, perseverance, perseverance

Adding to the final point, if you are friendly and network well, you'll be able to find a group that suits your style. Don't be afraid to join groups, even if it's an epic failure. If you find one of those other seven players capable, you have now added one more person to your list as a potential static. Grow your network, and in turn they can help you grow. Currently I'm in the process of replacing my BRD (yes, again), and right now I'm testing a BRD who was a friend of a friend to see if we can get our dynamic to work. It's frustrating, but you can't let it discourage you.

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Originally Posted by Aana

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"We are asking that people do NOT go out of their way to deliberately make things harder."
Who's deliberately making things harder? That 1 post from like 10 pages ago that says to come buy his runs? Who exactly is deliberately making newbies life harder?
...

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There shouldn't even be a single shameless clear seller that come to forum to taunt others. But the fact remains, while the learning party get stuck waiting on the PF, there is obviously clear sellers with more than enough time sitting and waiting on the PF advertising their clear sell. They certainly can help and they certainly will not. That is the most obvious case. But you have people asking the "no newbies wanted" checkbox for the DF and PF. Thankfully SE is smart enough not to fall for that trap. And then there is the endless verbal abuse hurled at the newer players and newbies. All of this is done deliberately, because by default they can do nothing, but they choose to do even less than nothing.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

.. broadly generalizing ALL raiders as clear sellers ...

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I do NOT equate raiders as clear sellers ever. You can search this thread or any other and see that I've always been very clear on that. Yet the clear sellers come here and muddle the discussion and pretend to wear the wool of the raiders. I've got nothing against the raiders, only those want to play devil's advocate for the clear sellers, and those that promote an attitude indifference, apathy, or being deliberately dismissive of the problem the OP is presenting.

Yoshi P said himself at one of the fanfest panels that one of the challenges in doing endgame raids is putting together a team that can work together. Thus those raids drop better loot then 4 mans which they don't want to be harder.

If you want to do the hardest content in a MMO you will have to put a team together there really isn't much way around this. If not then you can do the easier content or wait until the nerf/echo come into play. Don't expect to beat the hardest content in any mmo with just randoms, game designers don't do this because then the game is way too easy for the organized group.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

2 - Tanks are so rare to find, even more than in other games, enough so that they misteriously NEVER need to resort to PF to do content. That being said, a learning party for T6 will most likely NEVER, EVER, EVER find a tank that actually needs to learn the fight. If you tell me you know a tank that never cleared T6, I'll think you're lying.

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*coughs* Ehrm... *raises hand* Maining Tank, secondaring (totally a word. at least it is now.) Healer. Haven't gotten through T5 yet. Not for lack of trying, though. Gotten to dreadknight phase fairly consistently -- depending on the other players in the group, naturally. The main obstacle in my path is finding enough players for regular practice, even if it's just once a week or even once every other week, so we have to fill up with random people. Have the benefit of having one FC member well experienced in SCoB, but the rest of us are still beating our heads against that T5 wall ^^;

And yes, the frustration of not getting to the next bit is really annoying, but I will. One day. ¬_¬

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

That is SE being smart. They know that people have limited time and limited patience. Because as it stand too many players can't farm SCoB to start with because they couldn't get a static before 2.4. Heck even with statics, I know a static that been trying for at least the past 2 months and they still have NOT 1-shot T6 and only get the accidental T6 clears or die at 1% over and over. People need a way to move forward, and getting them stuck in catch-22, no static to farm SCoB, and must have cleared SCoB to be in a static. The breakthrough for the catch-22 can be possible by people being more inclusive.

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I really don't think you're listening to yourself here.

Do you think any group is going to even CONSIDER someone who says "hey I'm in full poetic but can't beat turn 1" for a turn 10-13 group? FK NO.

The only thing making it part of progression would do is have skilled players willing to do it with you.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

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Do you think any group is going to even CONSIDER someone who says "hey I'm in full poetic but can't beat turn 1" for a turn 10-13 group? ...

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It is NOT they can NOT, but rather they haven't had the reps to learn it and actually clear it. The fact that they have NOT yet, does NOT preclude them from doing so in the future. Give people the benefit of the doubt. That is being inclusive. BTW nobody is in full poetics yet, nor does gear level ever equate to skill level.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

It is NOT they can NOT, but rather they haven't had the reps to learn it and actually clear it. The fact that they have NOT yet, does NOT preclude them from doing so in the future. Give people the benefit of the doubt. That is being inclusive. BTW nobody is in full poetics yet, nor does gear level ever equate to skill level.

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As Dr. Phil once said, never give anyone the benefit of the doubt.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

As Dr. Phil once said, never give anyone the benefit of the doubt.

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And thus we have the current endgame raiding scene. Must be geared, fast learner, be exactly on the turn we're on or further along, etc etc...

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

And thus we have the current endgame raiding scene. Must be geared, fast learner, be exactly on the turn we're on or further along, etc etc...

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So what exactly is a raid group starting on say t10 right now supposed to do with a member that is under geared and not a fast learner exactly? Continue to fail gear checks (tank under geared dying, dps failing dps checks etc). Sit around wiping to the 1st mechanic for 3 weeks because they are a slow learner? If you are undergeared, you can fix that you self by farming up gear. If you are a slow learner there's nothing anyone but you can do about it. What exactly are you expecting the raid community to do about personal problems like this?

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

And thus we have the current endgame raiding scene. Must be geared, fast learner, be exactly on the turn we're on or further along, etc etc...

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Time is precious and nobody likes having their time wasted. That means that if I want a quick clear or someone to progress with, I'll choose the geared person that understand mechanics quick enough over the undergeared person who needs to dies to every mechanics 10+ times. Do you think people could have cleared T8 with undergeared DPS when the encounter has a very tight DPS check to meet ? Or tanks with ~6,000 HP getting destroyed by Nael on T9 ?

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Snip

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Ghislain made a lot of other valid points, why don't you try to answer to those ?

Yes, continue to not help out those who are coming back from 1.0 just now. I'm sure that will increase your numbers in 3.0 when you, and 2 others in your FC are the only ones doing the latest gated content. And lord hope not one single person who has passed the gated content dare leave the game, then you'd have to help others on your server, or play with yourself, which I'm sure most of you are really good at by now.

Now, go eat your ego. Swallow it whole.

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Originally Posted by Aana

So what exactly is a raid group starting on say t10 right now supposed to do with a member that is under geared and not a fast learner exactly? Continue to fail gear checks (tank under geared dying, dps failing dps checks etc). Sitaround wiping to the 1st mechanic for 3 weeks because they are a slow learner? If you are undergeared, you can fix that you self by farming up gear. If you are a slow learner there's nothing anyone but you can do about it. What exactly are you expecting the raid community to do about personal problems like this?

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Time is precious and nobody likes having their time wasted. That means that if I want a quick clear or someone to progress with, I'll choose the geared person that understand mechanics quick enough over the undergeared person who needs to dies to every mechanics 10+ times. Do you think people could have cleared T8 with undergeared DPS when the encounter has a very tight DPS check to meet ? Or tanks with ~6,000 HP getting destroyed by Nael on T9 ?



Ghislain made a lot of other valid points, why don't you try to answer to those ?

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Maybe, just maybe, there are some players out there stuck on T5 (because the groups doing it mostly suck) but are SCoB and FCoB capable.

They might have only just hit 50 and might not be decked out in poetics yet either. (Yeah OK it's a bit early, no one is yet, but you can bet that groups will expect you to be 115 or 120 in a few weeks).

Maybe they had to deal with RL for a bit and came to the patch late.

Not much of an issue for me--I have a social network of raiders. But, you know. I don't think that's a reason to give the middle finger to newcomers. Or as someone just pointed out, returning players.

Why wouldn't that be a reason to give the finger to them? If you're interested in helping, you'll stay. If you're not, then you won't. That's reason enough to say, "hell no" to everyone.

Mmm. I don't have a good answer to that, but I think it says a lot about the raiding community.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Mmm. I don't have a good answer to that, but I think it says a lot about the raiding community.

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I think that's human nature.

Not being geared up is no ones fault but your own. You can be 110 without ever attempting t1. The hardest part of 110 is stumbling through st for a tomestone. If you aren't keeping up with tomes (poetic included) that is your own problem. If you are undergeared that's on you. No one else. Period.

If you legitimately don't have time to cap tomes each week, then reality check: you don't have time to raid either. There goes the geared up argument. Gear is a bare minimum prereq.

If you aren't 110 yet, then what the heck have you been doing since 2.3 sand and oil-palooza exactly?

If you just started and are i55, then go gear up and learn your job in the process. When you catch up, holla atcha boy. Help those that help themselves. Show up in max tome gear and take your own time to research and practice your job and demonstrate some level of mastery of it and then come chat.

When you have done all you can to help yourself then ask for help from others. Aka: show some initiative. Or stare at your empty party finder for the next 4 hrs. That works too I guess

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Originally Posted by Aana

.... Aka: show some initiative. Or stare at your empty party finder for the next 4 hrs...

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And practical terms that means what exactly? People like the OP has tried many different things and have shown initiative more that a few times. Don't be dismissive of the effort that OP has put in.

You can put stuff on the PF, you can join other peoples PF assuming they don't put the "no newbies wanted" comment, or you can shout in Mor Dhona and get ignored just as much as on the PF. You can try convincing your FC to try some to commit time, but most of them are afraid of T5. Invite people to your LS, and get stuck waiting for tanks and healers on the PF together. What else you got in your bag of tricks for showing initiative? Showing initiative doesn't magically solve the networking problem when the people that have experience deliberate choose to exclude everyone else.

That is why I will continue to advocate for people to be more open and more accepting of the newer players. Don't give me the BS about how people are not trying or just want to be spoonfed. That is so far from the truth, when the majority of players are looking to clear stuff and carry their own weight. They just need the opportunity and practice time to go thru the reps and clear the stuff.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

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Ghislain made a lot of other valid points, why don't you try to answer to those ?

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I don't need to comment on captain obvious statements like not all raiders are clear sellers. Which I've said so myself. The rest is all stuff like that. Obvious and unhelpful for the OP.

Shouting, Putting up PF, joining PF, isn't networking. It's a billboard that gives nothing but some visibility. The question is what do you do with that visibility tool. Networking is about person to person communication and connection. The question isn't how many shouts you make or PF you join. It's what do you do to cultivate a relationship with those you meet. If you have a terrible PF group but one person you notice that is kinda decent, you need to make inroads with that individual. Not just disband and say "another 3 hours wasted". You make a connection with that individual. Team up. See if he has any friends in the same boat he can vouche for. Start up the next PF with him. In the words of bat man:

Gordon: "but you're just 1 man."
Batman: "Now we're two"

If no one helps you then help yourself. This isn't some circle of nobility you must be born into to participate and no one is forcibly holding you out of it. Endgame is a SOCIAL endeavor. You must needs create individual relationships with like minded individuals. Shouts, pf, ls, fc are but tools to help identify people. It is still up to you to make connections. The idea that endgamers are somehow restricting access is, bluntly, wrong. That's is scapegoating the blame for personal failure onto a system of oppression that is imagined. What many do not understand is that their lack of success is a direct reflection of their ability to socially connect. And that is a hard pill to swallow.

PF and df are last resort options that require zero social bonds but still give you a CHANCE to win. There was no pf for months and people still raided. PF is a great tool, but its convenience has led some to become completely reliant on it. This obsessive reliance on PF might be doing more harm than good to this game. Their proper use is as a wide fishing net to catch people and then you decide to keep them or throw then back.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

I think that's human nature.

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If you don't want politics brought into the game or the thread, it's worth noting that statements on human nature are inherently political and have been the hotly contested subjects of philosophy, economics, and science alike all trying to influence the outcome of society and culture for generations before either of us were born.

Jussayin'.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

And practical terms that means what exactly?

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As people have mentioned a dozen times. Go out and make friends that can help and learn with you to get it done. Network. Get into linkshells with similarly minded players tackling similar content. Do not in any circumstances expect people to come to you. You must go and meet people, and above all try to get to know them a little. This is an MMO. You're personal success is largely contingent on the support network you build.