I don't understand...

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

When I was farming my animus I didn't go and make new tanks life impossible when I got Satasha or Tam-Tara simply because they couldn't deal with the enmity dealt from Fire I crit. In fact I found use for css ruin, which I found to be hilarious, and made the new tanks job less stressful instead of being an elitist jerk and telling him he should try and force the notion of a rotation on him. I have no reason to start a players day with stress or end it with stress just to gratify my selfish needs for a piece of gear.

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I started as a tank. That's a horrible way to treat a new tank. You need to treat them to what the mechanics are. Yeah you can give them a couple seconds on a pull, but not giving them advice about fast blade > savage blade, hitting flash twice to open things up and flashing again every couple combo's only hurts everyone. You hurt them as they aren't given a real situation to learn their class in. You hurt the server as there is now another tank that wasn't taught the basics at low levels. You hurt the game as people that get frustrated from bad groups may get frustrated enough to quit. You hurt everyone. You are no different in toxicity to the guy that starts swearing and calling the tank a noob. Different side of the spectrum just as harmful. Don't purposely try to pull aggro but do your normal rotation (as far as the skills that you have at that level) don't gimp yourself down to be "nice" to the tank, you aren't being nice, you are being extremely harmful.

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Originally Posted by Kerberon

That's a horrible way to treat a new tank.

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Yeah I'm so gonna tell a level 15 Gladiator to step it up against a level sync'd job. He's totally gonna be looking forward to the next 35 levels after that experience.

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Originally Posted by Kerberon

You hurt them as they aren't given a real situation to learn their class in.

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It amazes me this isn't comon sense for everyone. Unfortunately the word elitist gets thrown out there by people every possible chance they get. When you try to make them understand it's okay to give advice, you'll get the "do you give advice kindly, or boss them around" discussion.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

It amazes me this isn't comon sense for everyone. Unfortunately the word elitist gets thrown out there by people every possible chance they get. When you try to make them understand it's okay to give advice, you'll get the "do you give advice kindly, or boss them around" discussion.

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Yeah and that common sense sure gets everyone wondering where all the tanks and healers are in MMO's.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Yeah I'm so gonna tell a level 15 Gladiator to step it up against a level sync'd job. He's totally gonna be looking forward to the next 35 levels after that experience.

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This is exactly what I told a lv 42 PLD in Stone Vigil earlier today after he totally went off on the entire party. We tried our hardest to give him good advice in the most polite manner. He was using flash to pull and never using more than his 1-2-3 aggro chain on a single target in a group pull. Healer ended up tanking more of the dungeon than him. He started calling us backseat players and other stuff so we left him to his own devices. I eagerly await when he hits 50 and starts crying about elitists everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Songi

This is exactly what I told a lv 42 PLD in Stone Vigil earlier today after he totally went off on the entire party. We tried our hardest to give him good advice in the most polite manner. He was using flash to pull and never using more than his 1-2-3 aggro chain on a single target in a group pull. Healer ended up tanking more of the dungeon than him. He started calling us backseat players and other stuff so we left him to his own devices. I eagerly await when he hits 50 and starts crying about elitists everywhere.

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So the issue being you couldn't adjust to his rotation, not surprised..

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

So the issue being you couldn't adjust to his rotation, not surprised..

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Yeah, should've just not healed the tank at all. Let him die and wonder why the healer wasn't healing.

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Yeah, should've just not healed the tank at all. Let him die and wonder why the healer wasn't healing.

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Don't take it to the other extreme, that's not helpful either.

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Originally Posted by Songi

This is exactly what I told a lv 42 PLD in Stone Vigil earlier today after he totally went off on the entire party. We tried our hardest to give him good advice in the most polite manner. He was using flash to pull and never using more than his 1-2-3 aggro chain on a single target in a group pull. Healer ended up tanking more of the dungeon than him. He started calling us backseat players and other stuff so we left him to his own devices. I eagerly await when he hits 50 and starts crying about elitists everywhere.

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Can you imagine this tank doing T4 for example? It's these people who then cry how stuff needs to be nerfed (even though the whole party is overgeared by 5+ ilvls).

You might want to read this thread from the beginning. You'll be amazed!

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Because not everyone plays for the sole reason to be #1 and have an obsession over max number dps rotations.

This is why I prefer the old format for grouping which consisted on just getting the bodies to do the content and having a blast.

As for people complaining about bads, take into consideration that they are the ones funding your current habits as well.

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There are both complex and simple rotations for a lot of classes. My monk for example will do consistent dps with just 2 different 3 ability combos spammed over and over again. It's not optimal, but it's better than just hitting 1 over and over again. There is no excuse for that. People should strive to do well at everything they do, whether it's playing a game or skipping rocks. There is no reason I should be doubling people in dps in 4 mans even with my lazy rotation, and yet it happens all the time.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

Can you imagine this tank doing T4 for example? It's these people who then cry how stuff needs to be nerfed (even though the whole party is overgeared by 5+ ilvls).

You might want to read this thread from the beginning. You'll be amazed!

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Thanks! Since worlds are down I'll do just that.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

So the issue being you couldn't adjust to his rotation, not surprised..

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That isn't helpful. A tank who isn't holding hate isn't tanking. He isn't doing the basic core concept of his job and his 4 person team is failing for it. There is nothing the team can do to suddenly produce a tank to workaround the crappy one. In this instances the dungeon frequently ends in fail. Going to the extreme and expecting the other players to work around a literally useless tank is not possible. It's like having a healer who refuses to cast heals because that's not his style. No amount of working around that healer will produce healing enough to keep the party alive. Your ridiculous extremes do not help. You need to move somewhere near the middle.

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Originally Posted by Songi

... He was using flash to pull and never using more than his 1-2-3 aggro chain on a single target in a group pull....
I eagerly await when he hits 50 and starts crying about elitists everywhere

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If the PLD is using flash and doing his ROH combo on single targets, what else do you want? A level 42 PLD (level synced or not) in stone vigil does NOT have very many options. Try sleeping the other mobs and assist him. Don't rush him with large AOE bombs. It is elitist attitudes like this that is problem. The elitist attitude always point the fingers at someone else instead of adapting themselves first.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

If the PLD is using flash and doing his ROH combo on single targets, what else do you want? A level 42 PLD (level synced or not) in stone vigil does NOT have very many options. Try sleeping the other mobs and assist him. Don't rush him with large AOE bombs. It is elitist attitudes like this that is problem. The elitist attitude always point the fingers at someone else instead of adapting themselves first.

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Except not all mobs are sleepable, and a tank HAS to keep some form of AoE enmity on a group. Not just a single flash will do it. Just the healer healing normally will pull if that's all they do.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

If the PLD is using flash and doing his ROH combo on single targets, what else do you want? A level 42 PLD (level synced or not) in stone vigil does NOT have very many options. Try sleeping the other mobs and assist him. Don't rush him with large AOE bombs. It is elitist attitudes like this that is problem. The elitist attitude always point the fingers at someone else instead of adapting themselves first.

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Have you ever tanked or healed before?

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Originally Posted by ispano

Except not all mobs are sleepable, and a tank HAS to keep some form of AoE enmity on a group. Not just a single flash will do it. Just the healer healing normally will pull if that's all they do.

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What AOE enmity does a GLA/PLD have in Tam-tata at level 17? So no they don't have to do AOE crap. Just slow it down. It is always the elitist speed runner that wants to force rush things and they is why they are always the problem.

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Originally Posted by Fated

Have you ever tanked or healed before?

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I do both daily. And probably too much Brayflox HM no less see:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...03#post2145003

And I get 3 commendations regularly, just like last night on my iLevel85 SCH, for full pull to top of the bridge speed run. I know how the crap works and I also know how it breaks. For some players you just got to ease up on the throttle to help them.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

What AOE enmity does a GLA/PLD have in Tam-tata at level 17? So no they don't have to do AOE crap. Just slow it down. It is always the elitist speed runner that wants to force rush things and they is why they are always the problem.

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http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Flash

http://www.ffxivinfo.com/class/gladi...?ability=flash

http://xivdb.com/?skill/14/Flash

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Originally Posted by Foo01

What AOE enmity does a GLA/PLD have in Tam-tata at level 17? So no they don't have to do AOE crap. Just slow it down. It is always the elitist speed runner that wants to force rush things and they is why they are always the problem.

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They have Flash. And a Marauder has overpower AND can use Flash too. And yes they DO need to have SOME AoE enmity, otherwise the HEALER will be tanking. You DO know how enmity works from heals, don't you? I would hope so with you making arguments like that.

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Originally Posted by ispano

They have Flash. And a Marauder has overpower AND can use Flash too. And yes they DO need to have SOME AoE enmity, otherwise the HEALER will be tanking. You DO know how enmity works from heals, don't you? I would hope so with you making arguments like that.

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Flash works like crap at that level. Flash doesn't even begin to compare with overpower. And if the GLA/PLD needs to flash more that twice per pull on low level stuff like tam-tara then the rest of the group is not helping one bit. It is not the tanks job to manage all the enmity, it is a collective effort.

And there is no way flash can compete against level synced DPS with better gear, it just flat out does not work. Besides, at that level they are just learning their basic rotation, fast, savge, roh. Just doing that on one mob need about 5 secs. So just attack the target they are atttacking. Do not aggravate the situation with AOE crap. If flash twice and then get off one ROH chain on a single mob that is already 10 secs in to the engagment, it can't go any faster. So just ease up.

BTW I gladly tank a single mob that runs off of a tank. It is no big deal at that level. I can heal tank myself just fine. Or if I am using my SMN, titan or topaz can help. Or kite tank on my bard. It is ok to reduce the demand on the tank. It is definitely better than the cocky tank at that level that tries to pull 6 mobs and wipes everybody. It is ok to go slower. Elitist speed running stuff is the problem as it always have been.

The best advice to a new tank is: if the jerkwad DPS wants to grab aggro and they grab a mob, then they've bought it! Let them eat it. And don't stress over.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

If the PLD is using flash and doing his ROH combo on single targets, what else do you want? A level 42 PLD (level synced or not) in stone vigil does NOT have very many options. Try sleeping the other mobs and assist him. Don't rush him with large AOE bombs. It is elitist attitudes like this that is problem. The elitist attitude always point the fingers at someone else instead of adapting themselves first.

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Using Flash one time is not enough on a group, especially if you do not rotate RoH between mobs. A lv 42 PLD has every option minus Circle of Scorn. Songi never said anything about rushing him with large AOE bombs. It is not elitist to have someone perform their role, because that is their ROLE.

"The elitist attitude always point the fingers at someone else instead of adapting themselves first."

That goes both ways, you know. What's easier, barking at the healer and DPS telling them to adapt to your lack of enmity management and having three people expecting to adjust to you, who can't perform your role, or realize that you're losing enmity on group pulls and use Flash more than once?

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Originally Posted by Foo01

Flash works like crap at that level. Flash doesn't even begin to compare with overpower. And if need to flash more that twice per pull then the rest of the group is not helping one bit. It is not the tanks job to manage all the enmity, it is a collective effort.

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You said it yourself, a collective effort. That means the tank, in this example, as well. I say it time and time again, EVERYONE needs to pull their weight and adjust to each other. NOT 1-3 or 1-7 people adjusting, but the last not. Coddling someone and saying that everyone else needs to adjust to him is wrong. If that ONE person does not feel like putting in the effort to try to hit a middle ground with the 3-7 other players in the group, THEY do not belong there. Again, EVERYONE. not MOST everyone.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

Flash works like crap at that level. Flash doesn't even begin to compare with overpower. And if the GLA/PLD needs to flash more that twice per pull then the rest of the group is not helping one bit. It is not the tanks job to manage all the enmity, it is a collective effort.

At that level they are just learning their basic rotation, fast, savge, roh. Just doing that on one mob need about 5 secs. So just attack the target they are atttacking. Do not aggravate the situation with AOE crap

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In Stone Vigil, with all the patrols, you usually WILL have to Flash more than twice. All you have to do is press one key/button that does not even break your combo.

For your second paragraph, even if both DPS attack what the tank is attacking (they should, and the tank should mark as well to make things clearer, see? collective effort), if a tank does not Flash more than once, then the healer will inevitably get enmity because that's what heals do, and this will happen much sooner if the healer has to heal more due to the tank not using their cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Odett

In Stone Vigil, with all the patrols, you usually WILL have to Flash more than twice. All you have to do is press one key/button that does not even break your combo.

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Not to mention, Stone Vigil is the first instance where the difficulty really does ramp up. And the tank, especially if minimally geared for the place, can take a lot of damage. Which means more healing, in turn making more enmity for the healer.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

Flash works like crap at that level. Flash doesn't even begin to compare with overpower. And if the GLA/PLD needs to flash more that twice per pull on low level stuff like tam-tara then the rest of the group is not helping one bit. It is not the tanks job to manage all the enmity, it is a collective effort.

At that level they are just learning their basic rotation, fast, savge, roh. Just doing that on one mob need about 5 secs. So just attack the target they are atttacking. Do not aggravate the situation with AOE crap.

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No but it is the tanks job to generate enough on all mobs so that a healer just doing their job of healing doesn't pull hate. That's a very simple and very basic aspect of the job. How can you possibly argue with that? Healing generates hate on every mob in the battle. That is an incontrovertible fact.

Flash working like crap doesn't change the fact that it IS AoE threat at the level you specified. It is enough to hold hate at that level. Who cares if you need to use it twice to get it to work. That's the way the skill is. That's the way it works. We are players have no choice but to use the tools given to us in order to complete content. If it means you flash twice so that healers won't rip hate then you need to flash twice. No amount of opinion or "playing the way I want" is going to change the math running at the core of this game. Math that doesn't give a damn about what's "fun" for you or how you want to play the game.

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Originally Posted by Odett

"The elitist attitude always point the fingers at someone else instead of adapting themselves first."

That goes both ways, you know. What's easier, barking at the healer and DPS telling them to adapt to your lack of enmity management and having three people expecting to adjust to you, who can't perform your role, or realize that you're losing enmity on group pulls and use Flash more than once?

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Sadly the argument repeatedly put forth is that the three players should adapt to the poor player. Giving any advice is elitist. Trying to provide tips is elitist. Just let them play how they want. All this regardless of the negative effect the player is having on the group, or how politely you convey the information.

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Originally Posted by Odett

That goes both ways, you know. What's easier, barking at the healer and DPS telling them to adapt to your lack of enmity management and having three people expecting to adjust to you, who can't perform your role, or realize that you're losing enmity on group pulls and use Flash more than once?

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The issue started up when they started to try to tell the tank want to do. The tank was not the one instigating the issue. Sure his skills may be limited or it could be that he was ungergeared. Who knows. But unsolicited advice will often end up with a mess.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Sadly the argument repeatedly put forth is that the three players should adapt to the poor player. Giving any advice is elitist.

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It is not sad to have to compensate for their limitations. It is all part and parcel of playing together. Wiping is also part of playing the game and if wipes never happen then a important aspect of why any game is fun is lost. Giving advice is not elitist, ordering people around, even if you know better, however is elitist, because no one has selected you to the leader of the party.

It would be nice if they deferred to a more experienced player, but too many times they are clueless about anything and everything. And that is why the DF and PF are there for them to learn and figure this out. Even if you blurt out the answer for them, they still won't register it because sometimes they don't even know what the question/problem is.

Cut them some slack, go slower. Play for fun, don't stress yourself out or them.

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Originally Posted by Odett

In Stone Vigil, with all the patrols, you usually WILL have to Flash more than twice. All you have to do is press one key/button that does not even break your combo.

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You can separate out the patrol from the mobs. It just need you to go slower. Wait for the patrol to come to the fore and then pull just the patrol. Clear that first then move on to the next mob. It is not that hard, just be patient, go slower.

Even on Brayflox HM, it is ok to pull 4 mobs or 2, if the healer or tank can't handle more. It is Brayflox HM and not Brayflox SR.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

The issue started up when they started to try to tell the tank want to do. The tank was not the one instigating the issue. Sure his skills may be limited or it could be that he was ungergeared. Who knows. But unsolicited advice will often end up with a mess.

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Then that person needs to grow up. Unsolicited or not, as long as it's done properly, ie without harassment, it's meant to benefit the party. The person playing "poorly" is affecting the party, not just themselves.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Then that person needs to grow up. Unsolicited or not, as long as it's done properly, ie without harassment, it's meant to benefit the party. The person playing "poorly" is affecting the party, not just themselves.

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Exactly. If the players giving advice did it in a respectful non-harassing manner then the player receiving the tip has no reasons to get bent out of shape over it. They are learning how to play still and they are not a master of their domain, and they should have the self awareness to know that they do not know everything there is to know about this game. Someone who is completely incapable of receiving advice probably shouldn't be playing with other people in this kind of environment. In this instance one person trying to help a poor player is at worst effecting one player. That poor player is effecting 3-7 other players. They need to get over themselves and accept that they are part of a team, and the team will only succeed when everyone works together.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

If the PLD is using flash and doing his ROH combo on single targets, what else do you want? A level 42 PLD (level synced or not) in stone vigil does NOT have very many options. Try sleeping the other mobs and assist him. Don't rush him with large AOE bombs. It is elitist attitudes like this that is problem. The elitist attitude always point the fingers at someone else instead of adapting themselves first.

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Are you contractually obligated to use the word elitist in every one of your posts lol? Oh, and flashes plus rotating your aggro combo through multiple mobs is how it's done.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

The issue started up when they started to try to tell the tank want to do. The tank was not the one instigating the issue. Sure his skills may be limited or it could be that he was ungergeared. Who knows. But unsolicited advice will often end up with a mess.

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Originally Posted by Songi

This is exactly what I told a lv 42 PLD in Stone Vigil earlier today after he totally went off on the entire party. We tried our hardest to give him good advice in the most polite manner. He was using flash to pull and never using more than his 1-2-3 aggro chain on a single target in a group pull. Healer ended up tanking more of the dungeon than him. He started calling us backseat players and other stuff so we left him to his own devices. I eagerly await when he hits 50 and starts crying about elitists everywhere.

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They tried telling the tank what to do because the healer was pulling enmity. If the tank was undergeared like you're assuming, then they should have used Flash more, since the healer had to heal more. This wasn't even a DPS issue, it was the healer getting enmity because the tank could not keep it, and if the healer does not heal, then the group wipes. Not every monster can be slept, like ispano pointed out, and that includes the Dragon Aevis, which is the hardest-hitting trash pull in SV.

They told the tank how to fix their enmity issue. You keep talking about everything being a collective effort, yet you insist that advice should not be given unless asked for, and that means having people adjust themselves to work around the poorest player (which was clearly the case in this situation). In order for a group to work in the most effective way, the least amount of adjustments should be made for that to happen. Suggesting to a tank that they should Flash more than once is a significantly smaller adjustment than having three people working around someone who refuses to press a button more than once.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

Giving advice is not elitist, ordering people around, even if you know better, however is elitist, because no one has selected you to the leader of the party.

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This is literally what I've been trying to say the whole thread. Giving advice. That's all I've ever been saying. However, if you look back at the thread, many people here have actually said ANY advice at all is too much. Even kindly given well worded tips that try very hard not to insult the player are STILL too much.

When playing, regardless of the skill of the other players, every dungeon or boss fight is always done on the condition that each player must play around and mesh with the ability of the other players. That's the basics of teamwork that MMO's are so good at using. The whole "work around that player" argument strikes me as completely ridiculous since everything we ever do in this game is working around other players. It's when a player is unworkable that we have issues.

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Originally Posted by Odett

... You keep talking about everything being a collective effort, yet you insist that advice should not be given unless asked for, and that means having people adjust themselves to work around the poorest player (which was clearly the case in this situation). ....

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People have to adjust because the better players can adjust and the ones that are inexperienced can't do what they don't know, otherwise known as pushing a string. Sorry those are the breaks.

An obviously the so-called polite advice was not well received. Sometimes what needs to happen, and I what I've done as healer in this case is to eat the mob and die before the tank even while healing the tank. When I die, the tank invariably will die a little later. This is wake up call to him. So at that point you request help to keep the mob off of you because you have died. The tank for his own best interest naturally will, and all you need to do is bring that mob to him. See you are not telling him what to do, but letting the situation point him to the direction it must go. The troll tank in this situation will keep letting you die and letting the party wipe, and it will be real obvious to the group who the troll is and vote kick the troll.

The wipe is also a tool for helping the party work together better.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

The whole "work around that player" argument strikes me as completely ridiculous since everything we ever do in this game is working around other players. It's when a player is unworkable that we have issues.

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The only type player that is unworkable is the troll because they deliberately want to work against your objective. "Working around" happens at various level and it is just a matter of degrees. It is not ridiculous, but there is no two ways about this, some have more experience, some have better gear etc. It is never 100% equal at any given time. And actually the more you push yourself, the more you will find that others are not keeping up, so more working around to a greater degree. That is a necessary fact of improving faster than other players or simply playing more.

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Originally Posted by Odett

Suggesting to a tank that they should Flash more than once is a significantly smaller adjustment than having three people working around someone who refuses to to press a button more than once.

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Such an elitist thing to say. How can you sleep at night. In an ideal situation the DD's should have rotated Potions in order to reduce the amount of Enmity the healer was generating from keeping the tank alive. Just lazy DD's IMO.

/endsarcasm

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Part of playing an MMO and especially in the DF is to be able to adapt to others play style.
- If you are a tank and in a party with heavy AOE players - Flash/Overpower more etc
- If you are a healer with an under geared tank, that although they are using the proper skills etc can't keep hate from you. - Regen + Stoneskin or Aldo etc
- If you are a DD and the tank has trouble with enmity but is doing correct skills etc - rotate damage through mobs.

If someone is offering advice, then take it and say "thanks". That's how you get better. If you don't enjoy being good at your role then, stop playing.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

The only type player that is unworkable is the troll because they deliberately want to work against your objective. "Working around" happens at various level and it is just a matter of degrees. It is not ridiculous, but there is no two ways about this, some have more experience, some have better gear etc. It is never 100% equal at any given time. And actually the more you push yourself, the more you will find that others are not keeping up, so more working around to a greater degree. That is a necessary fact of improving faster than other players or simply playing more.

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I'm just pointing out that even having to say "work around the other players" seems pointless since that's literally how you play the game. That's teamwork. That is what makes MMOs great. So every time someone says "just work around them" I'm immediately think "do you really think we aren't doing that already? The fact that we are doing that and it still isn't working means something else needs to happen to meet us half way because working around you obviously isn't enough right now."

Oh and I completely agree. Sometimes wiping is the best tool to illustrate why something didn't work. That is until they turn the blame on you somehow completely invalidating the lesson. Like if a tank pulls too many mobs than the healer can handle. Then the tank blames the healer. It ends up being the tanks fault, but the wipe gets pushed to the healer since he refuses to accept any personal responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

....The fact that we are doing that and it still isn't working means something else needs to happen to meet us half way because working around you obviously isn't enough right now."
....

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It would be nice if the could meet you half-way, but in the way of that is the fact that they can not know what they don't know and they can't do what they don't know. And it be nice if they didn't get mad and treat any advice or tips as bossing them around. But those are the breaks.

And invariably you will improve faster than them so that half-way mark will keep averaging higher (average = [your skill level + their skill level] / 2) so you can't possibly expect them to meet your half way. And I do not expect that because I know it is impossible.

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Originally Posted by ispano

... If that ONE person does not feel like putting in the effort to try to hit a middle ground with the 3-7 other players in the group, THEY do not belong there....

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They can't get to the middle ground the instant you demand it, that is a fact. And it is elitist to say they don't belong, because this is the elitist ethos to exclude lesser players. And to say it like that don't feel like is as if they are lazy is completely bogus. SE made the right decision to make the game more accessible and be more inclusive. Elitist wants to be exclusive which is clearly not what is good for the game.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

It would be nice if the could meet you half-way, but in the way of that is the fact that they can not know what they don't know and they can't do what they don't know. And it be nice if they didn't get mad and treat any advice or tips as bossing them around. But those are the breaks.

And invariably you will improve faster than them so that half-way mark will keep averaging higher (average = [your skill level + their skill level] / 2) so you can't possibly expect them to meet your half way. And I do not expect that because I know it is impossible.

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Except they can. There are many solutions to learning something you don't know, one of them in particular, advice from other people. Refusing to even LISTEN to that advice, be it good or bad, is ALL on that player. You can't just pull out the "He doesn't know how, so he can't do it". No. It should be "He doesn't know how, let's show him how(or teach him how)" But guess what, you just get harassed for doing that, or called an elitist. I'm sorry, you are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

They can't to the middle ground the instant you demand it, that is a fact. And it is elitist to say they don't belong, because this is the elitist ethos to exclude lesser players.

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Good job missing the point, they can if shown or told how. That's the entire point of giving advice, so people can LEARN and do better. But REFUSING to listen to the advice and improve, they do not belong. They are WILLINGLY refusing to TRY to do better, they do not belong. They are the ones in the wrong.

We are ALL human. We all can learn and improve. Hell, I have a friend on my server who can't use the whole left side of his body, and he's always trying to be a better player. He doesn't ignore advice or bash people for saying ANYTHING against him. He's physically disabled, making this game hard for him to play and he STILL TRIES.

EDIT: One other thing. Meeting half way does not literally mean HALF. It means both parties COMPROMISE. If one side is not compromising AT ALL, in a group situation, they are wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Foo01

And I do not expect that because I know it is impossible.

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Then you have simply accepted defeat in the face of an insurmountable task. Many of us have a more positive outlook on players and we would rather help them meet us half way. It's a much better option than raging, yelling, or outright quitting the dungeon which teaches no one anything except the degree to which ones patience has worn thin. People keep asking for patience with these kinds of players. They want us to stick the dungeon out and just help them through it. In the same token those newer players need the patience to accept help.

I'm not saying any one group of players is at fault here. Experience players need more patience and tact when they help newer players. Newer players should learn how to be a better part of the team and accept that they don't know everything and that those experienced players might have some genuinely good information to share.


The only reason this problem exists is because players on both sides refuse to meet in the middle.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Then you have simply accepted defeat in the face of an insurmountable task.

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I have not accepted defeat. I just don't require that meet us half-way as a starting point. I just don't need to them to make that leap immediately. Just because you can't push a string does NOT mean you can not thread a needle right? I can be more patient and hopeful. So it goes back to going slower.

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Originally Posted by ispano

...They are the ones in the wrong....

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It is so easy for you to say some else is in the wrong isn't it? That is exactly the elitist ethos also. Always someone else is wrong. If you can't get advice to them that doesn't sound like an insult to them or why do they not accept the advice, then maybe your problem is understanding the human psychology of the receipt of the said advice. But elitist will never want to solve that problem, because it is always some else that is wrong. You do realize that their are whole research institutes, marketing arms, propaganda organizations etc. that has spent years millions of man hours trying to figure out how to get their intended messages to their intended targets right? If you are not getting thru to them, it is not that they are wrong, it is probably because this is a difficult problem that probably has no good solution. Calling them wrong doesn't solve anything. Telling them that they don't belong is just being elitist, and that was never SE's stance anyways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Foo01

I have not accepted defeat. I just don't require that meet us half-way as a starting point. I just don't need to them to make that leap immediately. Just because you can't push a string does NOT mean you can not thread a needle right? I can be more patient and hopeful. So it goes back to going slower.

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Spray the string with starch first then let it dry. This is equivalent to giving advice and teaching. Guess you can push it. Btw in your world should we close down all the schools and universities?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Foo01

I have not accepted defeat. I just don't require that meet us half-way as a starting point. I just don't need to them to make that leap immediately. Just because you can't push a string does NOT mean you can not thread a needle right? I can be more patient and hopeful. So it goes back to going slower.

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I don't expect to start mid way. That's unrealistic. You'll start dungeons sometimes with brand new players that can't possibly meet half way. I thread the needle is when I see problems occurring over and over and they aren't getting corrected naturally so I'll pop up and offer advice. I only offer the advice after the problem appears to be systemic in the players technique and is causing problems or preventing advancement in the dungeon. Just because I want to help people doesn't mean I'm giving them a lecture before the first pull. I sit back, I observe, I play along, and only if necessary do I give advice. My entire stance has been moderation from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Kerberon

Spray the string with starch first then let it dry. This is equivalent to giving advice and teaching. Guess you can push it. Btw in your world should we close down all the schools and universities?

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What if they are allergic to starch? It irritates them. You can't force them to like it.

The people that go to universities are all looking to learn and looking for advice. Unfortunately this is a game, played for fun, so it is not school. As for school, especially compulsory education (k-12 in the US), I am not so sure it make sense because too many of those kids especially starting at 13 or so, they don't want to learn, and they act just like the people you have problems with in game. But that is a whole other debate.