Parsers

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Originally Posted by Delsus

Perhaps I should have phrased that better, when I say I don't get to play much I mean I don't get to play much now, I will admit I have the experiance, but you have hit the nail on the head about why I am angry about it, I have no problems with constructive criticism, in fact I welcome it, but when people just say "you suck" then yeah they are scum.

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Problem is you DO suck. So improve yourself and get over it.

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Originally Posted by Shyluv

I never said running a parser in itself was bullying. But in CT and primals I have seen many people bully and harass because someone was parsing low.

Yes, you can be bullied over the internet. Just because it's not face to face doesn't mean anything.

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Actually they're substantially less personal (it largely doesn't matter to the instigator who their target is) but it happens a lot more (due to the anonymity and lack of any social repurcussions). This takes many forms - one is forum flaming, another is in-game trolling/harrassment. And finally, some people just LOVE to fling verbal poop at anyone they consider "an opponent" - trash talk in online PVP games is the ultimate culmination of this.

All this is (I'm serious) known as the Greater Internet F**kwad Theory.
And a classic example of it is the post right above this one.

Link to original source (I'm not posting a direct image, since language used is NSFW) ;)

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Originally Posted by Cailae

Bosses are bullies for firing you? Schools are bullies for failing you? Bar association for not making you a lawyer because you failed the exam?

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So video games are comparable to work or school? Not, you know, a way to get away from all of those things. Everyone has to deal with the stuff you listed every day. Why drag that crap and bad attitude into a game? But no, it would be too mature to think that way. As a matter of fact, using your comparison, does a boss who calmly and professionally explains problems and alterations that need to be made achieve more success than those who don't? What about professors who try to help you and take the time to sit down with you to learn as opposed to just saying "loln00bl2quantumphysics" after looking at your scores?

And come on people, "growing thicker skin"? I thought we were beyond that irrational thinking by now.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

And come on people, "growing thicker skin"? I thought we were beyond that irrational thinking by now.

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It's not irrational. It's because you're NOT going to change abusive people. They will never go away, at least not in our life time.

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Originally Posted by Cailae

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The difference is, for all of those things there is a contract (implicit or explicit) and the person is aware of the forthcoming judgement. That doesn't exist in this game, unless you've explicitly defined the parameters. It is not one players responsibility to determine the performance of another, especially in a pug. I think we can all agree we would rather see the community improve, but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it. Negative reinforcement doesn't work.

I agree bullying might be a little over the top in this scenario, but don't think it can't happen in similar situations.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

So video games are comparable to work or school? Not, you know, a way to get away from all of those things. Everyone has to deal with the stuff you listed every day. Why drag that crap and bad attitude into a game? But no, it would be too mature to think that way. As a matter of fact, using your comparison, does a boss who calmly and professionally explains problems and alterations that need to be made achieve more success than those who don't? What about professors who try to help you and take the time to sit down with you to learn as opposed to just saying "loln00bl2quantumphysics" after looking at your scores?

And come on people, "growing thicker skin"? I thought we were beyond that irrational thinking by now.

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I am pointing out the absurdity of people looking at hard data, finding you lacking, and being called a bully for following through with the next step. We are assuming we are already at the "failed at" point in the relationship. You are also correct in that this is a game. I am not your teacher, I am not your boss, and likely I do not know you on any personal level. Thus you are measured where it is most important. You show up as DPS, you fail to perform DPS, you need to go. This is no different than a Tank that can't hold hate, or a Healer that lets everyone die. Take it for what it is, and improve for next time.

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Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

The difference is, for all of those things there is a contract (implicit or explicit) and the person is aware of the forthcoming judgement. That doesn't exist in this game, unless you've explicitly defined the parameters. It is not one players responsibility to determine the performance of another, especially in a pug. I think we can all agree we would rather see the community improve, but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it. Negative reinforcement doesn't work.

I agree bullying might be a little over the top in this scenario, but don't think it can't happen in similar situations.

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I guess I am assuming things like party finder. I don't use the Duty finder for... well anything. If I do Duty finder something I know I am rolling the dice on everyone I end up with. In that instance the onus is on me. But I see people all the time lose their minds that they were kicked from a PF party that explicitly says not a learning party when they clearly do not know the fight. Parameters were defined, you did not fall within them. No need to get upset over it.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

So video games are comparable to work or school? Not, you know, a way to get away from all of those things. Everyone has to deal with the stuff you listed every day. Why drag that crap and bad attitude into a game? But no, it would be too mature to think that way. As a matter of fact, using your comparison, does a boss who calmly and professionally explains problems and alterations that need to be made achieve more success than those who don't? What about professors who try to help you and take the time to sit down with you to learn as opposed to just saying "loln00bl2quantumphysics" after looking at your scores?

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This. Even those that decide not to help dont call anyone out in front of everyone to insult or rage at before letting them go. Nor do they go into a temper tantrum for getting an answer wrong, specially from someone new. Well ok ... some do, but they generally get labeled much the same as the angry little pricks we get in game. Its a pretty simple concept people. I mean how low must ones IQ be where the differences between yelling angry insults and common decency eludes them?

"Well, you could be nicer about it."
:confused:"... huh, what? But you were bad, Me lose 1 minute of play. I have say you!!!!" :confused:

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Originally Posted by Cailae

We are assuming we are already at the "failed at" point in the relationship. You are also correct in that this is a game. I am not your teacher, I am not your boss, and likely I do not know you on any personal level. Thus you are measured where it is most important.

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Here is where we will disagree. Community building is a responsibility we all take on whether we want to or not. The reason for this is because oftentimes, how we interact with the community determines our experience, positively or negatively. Instead of sending people away for failing, make them a better player.

In other words, "what is most important" is the interaction with the other player, not the success or failure of the group. This will create a longer lasting experience for everyone involved, because they don't feel like they have to do better in order to enjoy content, but want to do better to achieve something difficult. This doesn't pertain to everyone, I understand that, but I know if I were treated one way as opposed to the other, I would do better.

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Originally Posted by Cailae

Instead of "Man my DPS was terrible, maybe I should improve and try again later" it's "BAN THAT GUY FOR MEASURING MY PERFORMANCE!"

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Again, OP has stated that he didn't care about the parsing and just used it as an angle to crucify someone for calling him out. This thread is not "Parsers contribute to an elitist and toxic gaming environment and should be forbidden;" this thread is "Parsers let me get people I don't like banned and should be forbidden just in case I have the opportunity to get somebody with them!"

Yoshi has already pretty well explained why parsers have been left in that grey area. Parsing isn't cheating, but he doesn't want players butting heads over "must do XXX DPS or kick." Yet somehow, OP has taken the third way, where the law exists only for his own amusement and not for the benefit of the community at large. That's what so damn disgusting about this thread. This instance is hardly some egregious abuse. "DPS is too low" is not an uncommon problem in fights, and it isn't going to take long before everyone points out the obvious weak link, parser or no. It happens with tanks and healers, too, even where they aren't parsed: people will call out tanks for taking too much damage due to not rotating cooldowns properly (or at all), and healers get knocked for not healing properly at critical periods like mountain buster, double WW, or death sentence.

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Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

The difference is, for all of those things there is a contract (implicit or explicit) and the person is aware of the forthcoming judgement.

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Actually, we are very well aware of the judgment. It is frequently accompanied by "Tremble before the might of the earth!" or similar exclamation.

//EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

Instead of sending people away for failing, make them a better player. In other words, "what is most important" is the interaction with the other player, not the success or failure of the group.

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I don't think that's necessarily the point. I do agree that people should put more effort into improving the play of others and am not fond of the "must know fight" stuff, but evaluation has to be a part of that. The point of the MMO is not only interaction and not only progression; it is both.

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Originally Posted by ispano

It's not irrational. It's because you're NOT going to change abusive people. They will never go away, at least not in our life time.

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Well, it is not irrational to stand up against abusive people, ignoring them will not make it go away either.

my "friend" owns a parser, which he uses for himself, and if when notices any low dps, for example, a bard in gaurda fight.. reason, yhe brd did not have his DoTs up constantly.

my "friend" said it pt chat, "I don't see all the Dots i should see on Garuda" in general. Who knows who else it would have helped. The brd kept his rotation the next fight.

There r many ways to solve a problem without ignoring of course.

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Originally Posted by Synapse

Well, it is not irrational to stand up against abusive people, ignoring them will not make it go away either.

my "friend" owns a parser, which he uses for himself, and if when notices any low dps, for example, a bard in gaurda fight.. reason, yhe brd did not have his DoTs up constantly.

my "friend" said it pt chat, "I don't see all the Dots i should see on Garuda" in general. Who knows who else it would have helped. The brd kept his rotation the next fight.

There r many ways to solve a problem without ignoring of course.

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Now that is how criticism should be, offering specific advice to help the party, that is the kind of comment I would respond to positively in a fight.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Again, OP has stated that he didn't care about the parsing and just used it as an angle to crucify someone for calling him out. This thread is not "Parsers contribute to an elitist and toxic gaming environment and should be forbidden;" this thread is "Parsers let me get people I don't like banned and should be forbidden just in case I have the opportunity to get somebody with them!"

Yoshi has already pretty well explained why parsers have been left in that grey area. Parsing isn't cheating, but he doesn't want players butting heads over "must do XXX DPS or kick." Yet somehow, OP has taken the third way, where the law exists only for his own amusement and not for the benefit of the community at large. That's what so damn disgusting about this thread. This instance is hardly some egregious abuse. "DPS is too low" is not an uncommon problem in fights, and it isn't going to take long before everyone points out the obvious weak link, parser or no. It happens with tanks and healers, too, even where they aren't parsed: people will call out tanks for taking too much damage due to not rotating cooldowns properly (or at all), and healers get knocked for not healing properly at critical periods like mountain buster, double WW, or death sentence.

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You completely missed the point of this thread, and that is the statement that parsers ARE being used for the purpose of harassing players, now if this continues SE could block the use of parsers (use strong encryption on the chat logs) over night, or with more work detect when a program other than the client is accessing them. Now (And I will state this for at least the 5th time but no one seems to read it) By all means tell me my damage isn't up to par, but a comment like "Are you trolling" offers no help, no advice it offers nothing to the community other than to make people feel bad.

Constructive criticism is "Delsus your damage isn't up to par with your gear, the BRD is doing much more, are you sure your rotations are right" at which point I could reply (as an example) "well my DoTs and heavy thrust are need to be done at the right position, which will be lowering damage, when they are moving around. Also when they are moving around a lot I have to chase them, whereas BRDs don't, but I'll see what I can do" But "Delsus are you trolling, you did xxk damage" offers nothing It would be akin to (specifically prior to the nerf) in Sunken Temple of Quarn parties dying to Mortal Ray "Guys you are all dying stop sucking" rather than "Guys you need to run to the playforms to remove doom asap" very similar comments one offers advice, and the other serves only to put people down.

This thread is a more a lesson, it only takes a few people using parsers to harass people to make them taboo, and potentially a very serious violation, It wouldn't take much work at all to prevent their use completely, or to make workaround too much work to bother with.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

Here is where we will disagree. Community building is a responsibility we all take on whether we want to or not. The reason for this is because oftentimes, how we interact with the community determines our experience, positively or negatively. Instead of sending people away for failing, make them a better player.

In other words, "what is most important" is the interaction with the other player, not the success or failure of the group. This will create a longer lasting experience for everyone involved, because they don't feel like they have to do better in order to enjoy content, but want to do better to achieve something difficult. This doesn't pertain to everyone, I understand that, but I know if I were treated one way as opposed to the other, I would do better.

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Unfortunately this is where you hit the problem of divergent goals. when you have thousands of people sharing a space you will often find that divergent goals cause the most friction. If my goal is only to clear content, and your goal is to goof around and have fun, neither of us are wrong. But, when put together, things can get messy. I often also do not have time to hold someones hand and make them better. When I DO have that time, I tend to spend it with my FC helping them be better players. I also don't jump into a PF party that says "Learning party!" and rage out that they don't win on the first few tries (if at all). I knew what I signed up for. This is why I don't understand people raging out when they don't hold up their end in other situations.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

Now that is how criticism should be, offering specific advice to help the party, that is the kind of comment I would respond to positively in a fight.

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Yet, I still refrain from doing so.
Simply because there are too many people out there that see even that as being insulted.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

I don't think that's necessarily the point. I do agree that people should put more effort into improving the play of others and am not fond of the "must know fight" stuff, but evaluation has to be a part of that. The point of the MMO is not only interaction and not only progression; it is both.

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I should explain what I meant here better. I agree that it is both interaction and progression, however contradicting one another at any point will result in conflict (positive or negative). I believe that having a better interaction will result in better progression naturally. Through my experience, this has been the most successful. It can be easy to get impatient, but staying positive and continually giving each other tips for specific points results in success. Outright telling someone "bad DPS, leave" will not fulfill anything for anyone involved. Now, the person who kicked has to find a replacement, and may have the same issue with the next person, or a new one crops up. The person kicked is disappointed, uninspired, and didn't learn anything. Both solutions will typically take the same amount of time, so why not take the more positive route?

EDIT

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Originally Posted by Cailae

-snip-

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Please see what I wrote above, I think it's relative enough. Particularly the last statement.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

Yet, I still refrain from doing so.
Simply because there are too many people out there that see even that as being insulted.

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Many times in DF I have helped people, in Quarn "Guys you need to kill the bees ASAP, tank can't take 2x final sting" (before the nerf) organising positioning on Garuda when we wipe to 3x AoEs, I see a missing Shield Oath on the tank, I mention it and there's no issues. It's about saying it in a polite manner, by all means say someone sucks, just don't make it sound like you are trying to intentionally hurt them.

Removing someone for not doing as much damage as you think they should isn't bullying. It's not what I would do first, personally. But whatever.

Saying something along the lines of, for example, "You're parsing stupidly low. Stupid must run in your family. What's your IQ score? Probably lower than you're parsing. If you can't understand simple rotations, I feel bad for any children you might have. Assuming you're smart enough to know where to put it." And then continuously calling the person stupid; that is bullying and I have seen that and worse.

I didn't read the OP as bragging that he would report anyone for parsing.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

...Again I was posting this to show how people are using parsers to put players down...

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The question when you have a low dps in your party is: why do they have low dps ?

Yeah sure if the tank forgot shield oath then the fix is easy (press a button).

But if a dps is not applying all his dot, why is it ? Laziness ? Not knowing he should ? What else is he forgetting ? Is he using hisoff CD abilities, his procs ? Does he know his rotation ?

All this take time. For people in my FC, sure, i will take the time to teach them and be patient. For people outside, i'm sorry, but it's not my job. If they can't put some time and thinking into how to best play their class, they can get into someone else's party and see if they are more welcome there.

And thinking that someone that is parsing 130 as blm on titan ex for example is going to suddenly jump to 180 because you tell them "hey buddies, don't forget to look out for those shiny procs, they will help you put out more damage ! :) :) :)" is completely insane.

In all cases this is no reason to be mean to them and to insult them. But, in a party labeled as "experienced", i would definitely not hesitate to say "i'm sorry, but your damage output is dramatically lower than what is expected for a dps in this fight. I would suggest you invest some time in looking for ways to improve it. In the meantime, i will have to replace you, as you are hindering this party".

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

I believe that having a better interaction will result in better progression naturally.

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I think there are times when the two are simply at odds. It takes time to learn rotations and learn what abilities to use when. You can't pay attention to mechanics and do your rotation at the same time unless that rotation is committed to memory. This is a good part of why people struggle with Titan HM. I can give examples of where sticking with it helped (Ifrit EX: 7 players walked in without previous clears, wiped 5 times, almost abandoned, won in the end) and times where all it did was frustrate people (oh man, all those Garuda and Titan runs without enough DPS). It is simply infeasible to teach a player his entire job as well as fight mechanics and have him get it all down properly in 60 minutes. You can't do everything for him. Sometimes, the only answer is to tell a player to go learn rotation and practice on a dummy.

To make it simple. Yes you can get banned for using a Parser. Telling someone that they have bad damage is Toxic to the game. Telling someone they need to have a better rotation is also toxic to the game. People get kicked out of parties because they aren't doing "top damage". Now these people that get kicked out don't understand why they are getting kicked out. People who use parsers actually don't know how to play the game properly. They look at parser numbers and say, "hey, your not doing ur job because this number says so". They become so dependent on Parsers that they actually have no idea whats going on in the game. Party members are a summoner, bard, blm. Now the drg gets caught in certain moves that capture him causing him to wait for his partners to release him. During that time the "parser" is making the drg look bad. Continued....>

For other parts of the fight the Ranged players get to sit comfortably away from Twintania doing their rotations while a mnk/drg. Actually have to be up on twintania. Parsers are always going to make ranged look the best in Most fights. Then after fight instead of actually seeing what happens in the fight and saying what needs to be fixed. Parser users say your not good enough because this number says so. If you kill the boss and are good at not getting killed then there is no reason for someone to tell u your not doing well. Basically people who use Parsers ruin the game for a lot more people. If someone uses a parser on you. You can get them banned just report it. Anyone defending Parsers with their life on this forum probably uses one themselves

Competent party leaders know when to account mechanics for a dip in dps. Come back later with a valid argument.

Also, you can just edit your post to get around the character limit, rather than double posting.

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Originally Posted by KyroeFelix

Competent party leaders know when to account mechanics for a dip in dps. Come back later with a valid argument.

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My post has nothing to do with "competent party leaders" it has to do with Parser users. A "competent party leader" does not need to reply on a Parser. IF they do then they are not really competent.

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Originally Posted by LoganBGone

My post has nothing to do with "competent party leaders" it has to do with Parser users. A "competent party leader" does not need to reply on a Parser. IF they do then they are not really competent.

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I know plenty of people who use a parser and understand simple facts about the game that prevent people from performing "max dps". No one is going to hold a dps player responsible for drops in damage during a conflag spike or if they need to kite something like in T1. Like I said, come back with a valid argument.

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Originally Posted by KyroeFelix

I know plenty of people who use a parser and understand simple facts about the game that prevent people from performing "max dps". Like I said, come back with a valid argument.

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So..because "you" know plenty of people that use it that way. I guess your statement is valid enough to say the whole community is like this...Sorry it does not work that way. Just because u know some people that use it, as you say. Does not mean that there aren't people who use it how I say. And as I said before, those people you know obviously don't understand stand that much of the game if they have to use a third party program to tell them if someone is doing max Dps. When im a party leader I do not need a program to tell if someone is doing their job. If the person keeps dying then I will help them on how to avoid things. As long as the job gets done then u are playing properly. I can look at their character to see if they are actually playing or just spamming 2 moves.

I will say this again.. people who are jerks are jerks with or without the help of a parser. The parser only gives them something additional to be a jerk about. They're still gonna be that person that lashes out at a party after wipe, or insults other dps with no semblance of being constructive. Parsers do not magically turn anyone into a jerk.

There are two sides to this coin. Not everyone only plays MMOs for interactions, as crazy as that sounds, first and foremost. I play for both interaction -and- progression. If enough of my friends stop playing, I will quit an MMO. Same as I will eventually get bored if we aren't making progress end game and quit. It goes both ways. So in static runs, or even party finder runs where people are expected to hold their weight, I don't really think it's fair for the 7 other players in your party if a dps cut off for a dps race is a certain point and you aren't maintaining it because you haven't looked into your cooldowns. I understand that side of the argument just fine. I also understand that people will use a parser to arbitrarily raise dps requirements on fights (the same thing I've seen people do with ilvl) and that some people (who were already jerks) will use it to call out dps in DF runs and the like.

Both sides have valid reasons for wanting or not wanting a parser. I'm in the group that doesn't want to take a useful tool away from everyone just because some might misuse it. I also make sure that I'm running with like-minded individuals when I do things (which I think all people should do). If you need to learn a fight, join a learning group and all that good stuff. We aren't elitist, we're more than happy to help those who have a problem with dps, tanking, or healing get better.. but we certainly want people willing to put the same amount of effort into making sure they're doing well.. if after weeks you're not showing any signs of improvement, and we continually have to repeat things to you.. then you aren't putting in the effort and we will probably find a replacement for you in the progression set. We'll still run lesser content with you, that you can be carried through.

To the whole "you can see it without a parser bit".. I bet you can.. but with Twintania, Titan, Garuda.. I'm more paying attention to the things I'm tanking, the boss's rotation, and the things I'm dodging than I am a specific person to see if maybe the right buffs aren't flashing up on them. It's a bit ridiculous to expect people to pay attention to all a boss's mechanics, plus track 7 other people in the party (in which you'd also have to know the correct rotations for every class by heart to make sure they're doing it right). But somehow expecting a person to do that is fine, but expecting someone to hold their dps for fights that do have dps checks isn't?

I don't hold any delusions SE will officially allow parsers either... this is the company that won't let us send whispers in dungeons cause they're afraid players will get harassed.

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Originally Posted by LoganBGone

I can look at their character to see if they are actually playing or just spamming 2 moves.

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So because you watch someone pop all their cooldowns and use all of their physical damage skills, that means they are playing properly and contributing sufficiently to the damage pool? Not at all. I get the argument that if the job gets done, it's a good day. But if someone can improve and you have a tool to help you show them, why wouldn't you use it? THAT is what most groups running a parse do with the information.

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Originally Posted by LoganBGone

And as I said before, those people you know obviously don't understand stand that much of the game if they have to use a third party program to tell them if someone is doing max Dps.

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Using a parse to pull information doesn't mean you don't understand the game. That's like telling someone who uses a graphing calculator they don't understand graphing because they didn't do it by hand.

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Originally Posted by Sunarie

To the whole "you can see it without a parser bit".. I bet you can.. but with Twintania, Titan, Garuda.. I'm more paying attention to the things I'm tanking, the boss's rotation, and the things I'm dodging than I am a specific person to see if maybe the right buffs aren't flashing up on them. It's a bit ridiculous to expect people to pay attention to all a boss's mechanics, plus track 7 other people in the party (in which you'd also have to know the correct rotations for every class by heart to make sure they're doing it right). But somehow expecting a person to do that is fine, but expecting someone to hold their dps for fights that do have dps checks isn't?

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Also, SO MUCH THIS^^^^

The fights you just named are basically all about Boss rotations. There is no need for Parsers in any of those fights. You can tell if people are slacking from how long the fight lasts, to if the boss is adding in more of their rotations because you are taking long and then there is enraged mode boss for when you take really long. When people keep dying its prob because they refuse to learn the boss Rotations. But that is something that can easily be taught. I cant tell if you like parsers or not from what you wrote xD.

P.s Can you tell me how you are able to write so much x.x I feel as if im limited to writing.

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Originally Posted by KyroeFelix

Also, you can just edit your post to get around the character limit..

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Originally Posted by LoganBGone

P.s Can you tell me how you are able to write so much x.x I feel as if im limited to writing.

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As quoted above.

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Originally Posted by LoganBGone

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You can tell the boss is dying slowly, or mechanics aren't meeting their required checks, but you can't tell who or why. Sure, I could keep my eyes glued on the Dragoon the whole fight to ensure he always have Heavy Thrust up, and watch the Black Mage to ensure they're always doing their correct, optimal rotation, but there are other things to worry about. Especially in Twintania...that is not all 'boss rotations'. If your dps is lacking, you WILL wipe at one of the many dps checks in that fight, be it conflags, snakes, dreadknights or just the plain old enrage. Titan? You won't get heart down, and even if you do, you'll lose to attrition in the end if your dps is too slow. Even something like Turn 4, if your dps is too slow, you'll end up with unrecoverable situations such as the Dreadnoughts eating spiders because they didn't die fast enough.
Parsers are tools, and how they're used depends entirely on the person. They help a lot when trying to determine who needs help and how, but no decent raid leader RELIES on them.

I don't know why people get so hung up on helpful tools, there to aid them. Sure, a jerk can use them to harass, but guess what? Jerks are jerks. Remove the parser, that jerk is still, well, a jerk. He's not going to become a nice person, suddenly.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

You realize clinical depression, and to a larger extent mental illnesses is as debilitating an illness as cancer or HIV is right?.

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While I understand your point, I, for the most part disagree. Because I feel strongly that we are stripping our population of the essential strengths they need to get through life and not break under the pressure, does that mean I must know nothing about what it is to struggle with debilitating illness (be it mental or physical)? There are plenty of people who fit your description of mentally or physically ill who game on a regular basis and don't pay any mind at all to the people whose sole purpose in life seems to be spreading misery. I don't condone the poor treatment of others, by the way, especially without provocation. I also don't condone coddling. Coping skills outweigh coddling any day of the week.

We're talking school-yard nonsense here. There is a major difference between someone telling you that you're not doing well in a boss fight on a video game and them telling you that you're worthless and should go kill yourself (which even I agree is on the severe side and report when I see it). Yes, there IS a huge difference between being raped and being told you suck at a game. The bigger issue is just that - people are losing the ability to differentiate between what is truly a threat and what is just silliness. Coddling does not and will not remedy that issue.

So, no, I don't think that severe bullying is OK. I don't think the gay kid getting the shit kicked out of him every week is OK. I don't think the girl being touched inappropriately by her school mates is OK. I don't think a lot of things are OK. I think that we need to be teaching people how to cope with the things that are, in the grand scheme of things, minor... you know, like being asked if you're a troll because your dps is bad in a video game. And I maintain that unless someone has been violent toward you, or is threatening to be, most of that shit can be shrugged off. If someone over there beats the crap out of a random stranger for wearing an ugly hat, I will absolutely agree that repercussions for the aggressor are in order. If, instead, he just says, "Your hat is ugly, bro, lolwhateverstupiditypeoplespout", I'll just think to myself that the guy is an idiot and continue on my way.

The thing that stands out the most to me about this idea that people who are unstable enough to take drastic measures when they feel 'bullied' on the internet is that they are even putting themselves in that position to begin with. They don't need video games. They need medical treatment. Being 'bullied' (in this case, performing poorly and that being pointed out) in a video game is a pretty avoidable experience if a person lacks the basic social skills to cope with it. You wouldn't expect a person in a wheelchair to use train tracks as sidewalks, would you? Personal responsibility. In the end, it is always your responsibility to decide how to handle what life throws at you. Perhaps bullying is a relative term insofar as it is really a matter of personal perception, but I fear we are erring on the wrong side of it.

This conversation is certainly getting windy. ;)

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Originally Posted by LoganBGone

The fights you just named are basically all about Boss rotations. There is no need for Parsers in any of those fights. You can tell if people are slacking from how long the fight lasts, to if the boss is adding in more of their rotations because you are taking long and then there is enraged mode boss for when you take really long. When people keep dying its prob because they refuse to learn the boss Rotations. But that is something that can easily be taught. I cant tell if you like parsers or not from what you wrote xD.

P.s Can you tell me how you are able to write so much x.x I feel as if im limited to writing.

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Editing your post gets past the character limit. Also, how do you determine which party member is holding you back if the fight lasts long? You can't just say "all you dps are lacking" when it could just be 1-2 people holding you back.

Tashigi its not up to you who decides if they have fun or not this is the whole point. They pay monthly doesn't matter if they are bad players then help them out or leave the party yourself.

If you say why should you leave when they suck, easy because you have a problem with it clearly they don't meet your standards, so you leave you shouldn't even have the right to choose who stays or goes.

I see it all the time, same excuse is used people saying why don't you help explain fight instead of ragging on them, they say I have enough as it is to worry about myself, I think to myself but they have enough time to parser someone else but don't have enough time to explain the fight. just excuses.

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Originally Posted by LoganBGone

The fights you just named are basically all about Boss rotations. There is no need for Parsers in any of those fights.

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I disagree, there are points in those fights that are definite dps checks, and things a parser can help with that maybe happened too quickly for people to take notice during the fight. It is possible for people to not get Titan's heart down in time, and overall damage look won't tell you heart damage or anything, but there are different ways of breaking down the information. The same goes for Garuda extreme's sisters. If you don't get them down in time they all go to the center and scream. The same is also true for conflag's in Twin, don't get those down fast enough and people die. There are also instances where things die that shouldn't, so knowing who may be stunning, or hitting a mob they shouldn't be is useful. All bosses also have an enrage, as you mentioned.. which shows that dps isnt up to par, but it is entirely possible that someone isn't pulling their weight, or anywhere near it which could make all the difference between passing and failing. I am not talking about instances that are plainly visible, like someone getting killed, I am talking about when a fight seems to be going fine otherwise (but could seem slow), but suddenly you hit an enrage, or the sisters don't die, or conflag blows up.

I like when parsers are used correctly, and I realize there are people who don't use them correctly. I don't like when people use them to berate others, but I don't think they -cause- people to berate others. Just like I don't think having the presence of tank and healing classes in a game causes people to turn into jerks and the like. Just cause some tanks have said "speed run or GTFO" and then griefs when no one will do it doesn't mean we should pull the tanking class from the game. Nor does some people going crazy with insults when a tank forgets to put shield oath up mean we should pull tanks out of the game. Being a jerk is not an okay thing in any circumstance, and jerks do need to go away. I do think people need to stop placing blame on the things people might use to be jerks, and place more blame on the folks being jerks though. I don't approve of taking away useful tools (such as parsers, or whispers in dungeons, or even emotes which can be useful tools for role players) because of the people who are going to abuse them, especially when there is a way to separate yourself from those who would abuse (by making your own group, or joining a group of like-minded people, which is what I do).

As others have mentioned, I get long posts by going back and hitting the edit post button, and then adding to the original. This bypasses the character limit.

As long as people don't harass other players using parsers, I guess it's fine.

First person to cry parser wins.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

I see it all the time, same excuse is used people saying why don't you help explain fight instead of ragging on them, they say I have enough as it is to worry about myself, I think to myself but they have enough time to parser someone else but don't have enough time to explain the fight. just excuses.

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Why should good players teach people who don't want to learn? If they had wanted to learn, they would have done so themselves. Rotations and such are easy to find for anyone who actually wants to.

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I think to myself but they have enough time to parser someone else but don't have enough time to explain the fight. just excuses.

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A parser takes 5 sec to start. And can be done before even entering a fight/instance. After it's started, it runs in the background, no work involved.

And as for raging on them... Never personally seen that happen, my guess is that it don't happen that much. Most of the time it's just a statement that their DPS is to low/bad.

How do you know they don't want to learn?

I don't know about you but I used to help people out on Bismarck FFXI all the time, even if I finished what I had done explaining is not a problem I am not lazy, I don't need programs either to check how well I do or others, if we lose a few times no big deal pick yourself up fight again till we win if they quit let them at least they didn't get kicked.

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Originally Posted by LoganBGone

So..because "you" know plenty of people that use it that way. I guess your statement is valid enough to say the whole community is like this...Sorry it does not work that way. Just because u know some people that use it, as you say. Does not mean that there aren't people who use it how I say. And as I said before, those people you know obviously don't understand stand that much of the game if they have to use a third party program to tell them if someone is doing max Dps. When im a party leader I do not need a program to tell if someone is doing their job. If the person keeps dying then I will help them on how to avoid things. As long as the job gets done then u are playing properly. I can look at their character to see if they are actually playing or just spamming 2 moves.

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You are so full of shit.

What you are saying is just plain not true. First of all "not dieing" is nowhere near good enough. Good luck beating enrage timers if you do that, be it in garuda ex (sister phases), titan ex (hard enrage), ifrit ex (nails), or twintania (conflag, snakes, hard enrage). It is also pretty hard to tell who is the slacker without any help, and shouting on all dps "goddammit up your deeps !" is not helping. A parser can help analyze the rotations, etc. It also allow to see who is using ballad etc. Obviously you have to be smart about how you use it, like any tool.

Another point: melee looking bad on parse must be a joke. Except on garuda, good melee are going to knock you out of your socks and make your blm especially looks like total noobs on a parse.

Anyway. You simply have absolutely zero idea of what you are talking about.

Look, if someone calls you out on having low DPS, why would you cry about it on the forums? The world isn't your personal hugbox. "Oh well maybe if they offered constructive criticism it would be ok!". What if the guy calling you out on your low DPS doesn't play your job? How is he gonna help you? You have to first help yourself, by researching your damn class before you ruin it for everybody else. It's sad when I once wiped to turn 4 in a PUG for eternity before I finally got fed up with the awful tanks and bad dps and told them skill by skill, how to accomplish turn 4. And we won that same run. Though I shouldn't have had to do that, especially considering everyone there claimed they were "experienced". They did nothing but waste their own, and my time. Don't be one of those people. If someone says you parse low, they're being blunt and honest. So fix that, so it doesn't happen again.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

Tashigi its not up to you who decides if they have fun or not this is the whole point. They pay monthly doesn't matter if they are bad players then help them out or leave the party yourself.

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the only time this argument would hold any weight is in the duty finder. if i create a group, ask for experienced players, then get one that isnt experienced and holds the rest of the group back, i am not going to be the one leaving. i will ask them to step it up, if they dont, i will kick them. some people have fun holding hands and singing koombaya while getting their face pummeled by trivial content. personally i have more fun winning, and winning consistently.