Funny thing is that this is you dont even need healers to clear the latest ultimate...
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10-10-2023, 05:32 AMRithy255
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10-10-2023, 08:09 AMsindriiisgamingso i watched what he said and youve definetly taken him out of context here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
what he said was
"if you are comparing the 5.4 raid to 6.0 then you are comparing a tier III wing with tier I. tier I is designed to be easier while people adapt to the new jobs and learn rotations, we want as many as possible to clear it.
he said if still after the final fight of tier III you are not finding healing challenging, then yes ultimate is probabbly the next course for you.
to many people in this game play healer wanting to do as little healing as as much dps as possible, but you are a healer.. not a dps green or red. and if you dont enjoy healing, why are you playing it. the amount of dps healers do right now is proportionate to what they should be doing, if youre wanting to see healers doing more dps than tanks and dps themselves i think youre living in coocoo land.
prefix > im not saying the state of healing or jobs rn is ok. sage is a very good step in the right direction with its heals being dps relevant. i want to see all healers functioning that way, not because i want to do gigachad dps... but because i want the job to keep me awake -
10-10-2023, 08:55 AMSebazyCorrection:Quote:
Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming
In high end organised content they want you to do as little OVERhealing as possible thus giving you more opportunity to maximise your DPS. That's quite a significant difference.
Are you sure about that?Quote:
but you are a healer.. not a dps green or red. and if you dont enjoy healing, why are you playing it.
Lets take an 8:10 fight
112 DPS GCDs
52 healing GCDs
That was my first P4S pt2 clear, it was low low grey, I was wildly overcautious and safe and I'm a historic overhealer at the best of times (Literal world top 10 HPS in Gordias for what thats worth).
Yet I still pushed my Glare button 5.8x more than any other button in my kit.
I enjoy healing, I want to heal and I want to be under pressure to heal. This game has managed it in the past. Healing Coil was a great time, healing Gordias and Midas was an experience, healing Sigmascape was a wild ride. What we have now though? Unless you start Savage late with a bunch of additional gear, you're a DPS Harry, because if you don't squirt out even that miserable grey log, your group probably isn't beating enrage.
That's not healing. That's DPSing with spurts of healing in between.
You know who wants you do as little healing as possible? Yoshida's Savage and Ultimate design teams. -
10-10-2023, 09:01 AMIDontPetLalasQuote:
Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming
- Did you actually read the question? he didn't actually answer all of the question
- Healers are green DPS in this game, just as tanks are blue DPS, however who said anywhere that healers expected to do the most DPS (by the way - no need to be so insulting)
- Who said that they don't enjoy healing?
- Do you actually expect that healers spend all of their time in group content? Shouldn't that be engaging?
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10-10-2023, 09:19 AMDeceptusThis is correct, the original question was butchered like Yoshi does with most player proposed healing questions during the live letters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sani2341
The question was: "Healers are shelved in most content, what are you going to do about it". The devs addressed: "Why is healing in savages not "engaging"" They were asked one thing and ignored it. Quick side note, the original question was the HIGHEST upvoted question on the request thread. People wanted an answer to the question.
IMHO CBU3 job design team has no idea what to do with healers anymore. Adding 10 potency to an AoE? Completely not understanding how certain healing are even played (removing energy drain twice without any MP gaining recompense), completely getting basic math wrong on upgrade abilities (WHM Aero 2 vs Dia) -
10-10-2023, 09:28 AMSupersnow845That question is also basically what caused the backslide we are seeing now from “if you don’t like the question butcher it to answer a different question” to “just ignore the controversial questions entirely and answer the most upvoted softball question”Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
So now we get almost zero answers to anything at all -
10-10-2023, 10:02 AMTurtledeluxe
I'm sorry to burst this bubble people have talked about for like 8 years but when you say "healers need something to do during (alleged) downtime" can you be more specific? I see people say this all the time but never suggest anything. Perhaps because we all know there is nothing to do other than damage and fights barely have what would be classified as downtime..
In other words why not just say what you mean...healers should do top dps bc why exactly? They are not a DPS. -
10-10-2023, 10:11 AMty_taurusTanks aren't DPS either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
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10-10-2023, 10:12 AMSupersnow845“Fights barely have any downtime”Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
You mean besides those minute+ periods where the boss stands around maybe occasionally slapping the tank or doing a godly simple mechanic, in casual content a boss like byregot literally does 2 instances of raidwide damage in 7 minutes, I have about 15 instances of raidwide healing in a 2 minute period and I don’t even have to drop damage for it, even in savage a 9 minute fight usually only has like 5 big mechanics then the rest of the time the boss is just standing there and maybe casts a raidwide
“You want healers to do top DPS”
No the amount of damage healers do is totally fine it’s how said damage is done that is boring as hell, either give us a more interesting way to do the amount of damage we are currently doing or give us something else to juggle like beneficial buffs or hindering debuffs for the boss -
10-10-2023, 10:12 AMAbsimiliardWhat does that even have to do with what that dude said?Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
This. This right here. Moving the role from "healing" to "support" suddenly makes everything a lot better for all involved parties without completely abandoning the trinity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
Healers want something to do, tanks want to be self-sufficient, and DPS don't want to die. Seems like a net win. -
10-10-2023, 10:13 AMNizzi
it has literally nothing to do with the actual DPS numbers themselves or the tuning based on that, it has everything to do with the fact that spamming 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 is not fun
DPS mains cease talking forever please -
10-10-2023, 10:14 AMty_taurusIf Healers aren't DPS, and thus should not receive DPS abilities, then why isn't that logic applied to tanks as well? They get new DPS abilities every expansion and they aren't DPS. Why don't they just get an obligatory upgrade to their basic combo buttons and get 2 or 3 new defensive cooldowns instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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10-10-2023, 10:16 AMTheDustyOneDowntime (in regards to healers) refers to time where healing isn't required, whether it be from everyone being full, or there's no incoming damage where you can let auto-regen take care of the work. Those moments are where we spam GlareQuote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
Because that's a strawman of your own making. Healers don't care about being top DPS, they care about ENGAGING DPS. Square could increase the DPS button count on healers to 5, 10, 500, and alter potencies to be 1/4 of our current damage and people asking for engaging healer DPS would be satisfied.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
Attack the actual arguments being made, not the one you think is being made. -
10-10-2023, 10:20 AMAbsimiliardThey do not seem to have been making a point relating specifically to the number of abilities healers have available. They were directly accusing people of simply wanting healers to have high DPS. In other words, obvious bait.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Tanks do not have high DPS, and people are not asking for tanks to have more DPS outside of being in a state of parity with one another. Thus your response to the incredibly obvious bait comes off as taking a role that had nothing to do with this leg of the conversation and throwing it right under a bus because you're mad that healers are in a crap spot. -
10-10-2023, 10:26 AMty_taurusI glossed over the word "top" in "top DPS" since that's not an counter argument I've seen anyone accuse the healer criticism of, so sorry for the misunderstanding. I would've corrected that, but the conversation is moving so quickly that there's no real point. My point isn't bait, for the record, though. I just want fair treatment between the two non-DPS roles. I don't want tanks dragged down to the healers; I want the healers raised up to the tanks, even if the tank role itself isn't perfect either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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10-10-2023, 10:28 AMAbsimiliardI don't necessarily think they should have the same amount of DPS as the tanks unless they're put in a situation where they have to invest an equal amount of effort. As it stands currently, the tanks play like melee DPS without positional requirements.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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10-10-2023, 10:32 AMty_taurusAnd the healer players play like level 6 DPS for the majority of the fight in the majority of content in this game. Nothing makes my yeast rise quite like mashing Dosis III until my fingers bleed and using Kerachole twice in 3 minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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10-10-2023, 10:35 AMAbsimiliardCareful. You're going to offend theQuote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
completely useless"I only heal" crowd. They're the reason healers wound up in this situation in the first place, hilariously. The irony of getting healers stripped down only for them to wind up being virtually unneeded. -
10-10-2023, 10:36 AMty_taurusMe breathing offends them anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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10-10-2023, 10:37 AMTheDustyOne
Let them be offended, casual content can let them ignore any extra damage spells that get added, so their playstyle won't get affected.
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10-10-2023, 10:39 AMAravellI honestly don't mind if tanks are reasonably self-sufficient, but it's an increasingly growing issue that tanks can also heal the party. It's reasonable that a tank doesn't want to fully rely on the healer to survive tankbusters and such, it's completely unreasonable for a tank to also be capable of healing the party because that spits in the face of the trinity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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10-10-2023, 10:41 AMAbsimiliardIn fairness, the trinity is kinda done to death at this point. A lot of games are moving away from it. Heck, even WoW has been gradually moving away from it by making tanks and DPS increasingly capable of supporting themselves and others. Anyway, I think a limited amount of party healing is fine. They just shouldn't be able to spam it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
And that heal on Shake it Off? Wtf was even the point of adding that? WAR was the last job they needed to add more healing to. I for one thoroughly enjoy WAR in its present state, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why that particular change seemed a good idea. -
10-10-2023, 10:43 AMAravellThe way I see it, party shields are fine as tanks are meant to protect the party. Party healing is stepping on the toes of the healer in the party, if tanks can also heal, what's the point of a healer? If one wants to make a trinity game, they need to respect the boundaries of the trinity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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10-10-2023, 10:44 AMty_taurusI think it makes sense for Paladin to have access to some party healing since that is very on brand for a Paladin. But I think party support and utility should come at some sort of opportunity cost so that Paladin isn't just a tank and healer. They need to sacrifice something to provide support. As for Warrior I have absolutely no idea. Nothing about Warrior's design makes me think "Heals the party." At least if it were Dark Knight, I could understand something like 'drains the life of the enemy and divides that amongst the party' not that Dark Knight really needs party healing. Or Gunbreaker using Junction if that were in PVE. Literally everyone but Warrior has some reasonable excuse for why they might have the ability to heal a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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10-10-2023, 10:52 AMAbsimiliardI guess yelling at people while red faced and with every vein in your neck and forehead bulging out just scares their bodies into rapidly closing wounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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10-10-2023, 10:54 AMTheDustyOne
I don't mind if the boundaries of the trinity can be toyed with and we get DPS with decent mitigation, or healing, or the capability to off-tank in emergency situations. Likewise with healers having some decent damage tools for non-healing moments, or Tanks pitching in with healing as well. The problem we have is that the incoming damage is low enough for non-healers to be able to do most of the work, especially tanks. I'd be fine with nerfing nearly all tank heals, but I don't want to see them gone entirely.
Clemency is alright, but Knight's Benediction on Intervention might be too much, one requires sacrificing your own DPS for the parties sake, the other just gives free healing roughly every 20s (at the cost of some personal mitigation). Bloodwhetting being a personal heal on a short cooldown as Warriors way of managing incoming damage is fine, but having it be a 25s Benediction in dungeons is overkill. Nascent I think should be a shield or mitigation on an ally instead of any healing involved, it isn't the co-tank that's "too angry to die", that's the Warrior itself. Also yeah, Shake it Off regen was dumb and unneeded. -
10-10-2023, 11:22 AMTurtledeluxeI think this is fair. I don't play healers but I am interpreting this to mean you want some sort of mechanic (ie BLM Enochian or Reaper Enshroud) to spice up the rotation of WHM? On the other hand I would say I'm sure the devs are hesitant to give healers too much to do as it could actually get in the way of healing. So they would need to tread carefully as such.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
Otherwise I would just say on the subject of downtime-- I don't really see when it isn't downtime if raidwide damage sequences are downtime. In terms of the majority of content (casual), for me as a BLM then, virtually everything is downtime except a handful of seconds I move around to avoid the current attack. That's all this game is. Wait around, push buttons, dodge attack, etc. Yes what you do in the midst of that cycle I suppose can seem meaningful, but the issues with the combat imo are larger than rotations. Things don't always do enough damage and boss encounters lack complexity.
To expound on this comment, no tanks aren't DPS and I think warrior in particular is a bit problematic. But it's also the generic go to job and I can kind of see why they want it to be good at everything, for people who want that kind of experience. That said, if we go back to this subject of casual and midcore content-- it's not like bosses have any features like segmented parts (not phases or turns, I mean parts of them), some kind of weakness, stagger gauges etc. Tanks COULD have more responsibility other than popping shields a handful of times. Additionally imo the buff/debuff situation in this game is very undercooked and unsatisfying across the board-- because the game is so damage centric it feels like they are just there to be there. Basically this game is a zerg but with some dodging in between and we spend lots of time arguing how to make that zerging more fun when imo the issue with the game is much larger than any of that. And what I mean to say is how else can they improve the tank gameplay other than to buff it with their defensive element in the fights is so basic and routine (which an extension of the basic and routine encounters imo)?Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Perhaps this is why simplifying every job, nerfing everything, etc caused so much ire? Not only because it seems counter intuitive but also because it exposes what's left of the combat once all of that is gone. WHM is complaining about the combat at the most basic level imo, not just their rotation. Which btw leads us back to the thread, why is 5% of such a big game engaging? -
10-10-2023, 11:31 AMDeceptusFTFYQuote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
A lot of healers have accepted the fact that CBU3 refuses to give us decent dps options / rotations because "It'd be too hard for players" despite tanks having them. We heal about as much as tanks mitigate anymoreQuote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
So in the downtime we have requested buffing / debuffing roles
Personally I have advocated for Protect / Shell / Faith / Bravery / Haste to appear etc etc. All Final Fantasy staples
CBU3 added a poison to most AoE's this expansion and apparently they don't trust healers to do their jobs so tanks / DNC / SMN / RPR get to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
Nah, give tanks: a single attack button that generates high aggro, a single dot that generates high aggro, a single aoe and 8-10 mitigations they'll hardly ever use. Let's see how long they last before they start quitting the role out of boredom.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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10-10-2023, 11:58 AMWim
playing 4 job tanks now feels like it's all the same
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10-10-2023, 12:04 PMSani2341I think you got mixed up there. As a BLM downtime for you would be the bits where you need to move and you can't do your primary job (dps).Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
For a Healer in a decently competent group, the only time they have to do their job (aka healing) is after raidwides. Esp. As overhealing does nothing to help the group defeat the Boss.
To try and paint you a picture of how healing downtime feels, imagine as a BLM a fight where you die if you stand still outside a handfull specific mechanics that last 1-3 GCDs. That's how much healing is usefull in EX trials and a lot of savage.
Sticking with the above example also might help illustrate the other part of the issue. Afaik, outside Triple Cast BLM has like 1 or 2 instant casts you'd be expected to spamm all of that hypothetical'we hate castbars fight'. That's about what healers have as well. A DoT a spell and some once a minute extra options. And outside AST with the card system, there's really nothing to any of that beyond sastasha level'watch the cast bar fill up again and again' casting mechanics. None of it interacts with each other, nor the Healing part of the kit. -
10-10-2023, 12:08 PMTheDustyOneYes. The most WHM has for a burst phase is Presence of Mind, which has us spam Glare still, but now FASTER. Previous expansions gave us multiple DoTs on all healers, and nothing 30s long, so uptime was something to keep an eye on more often. This is what people are asking for when healers complain about DPS being boring, it's currently monotonous, homogenized, and extremely uninspired.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
As for getting in the way of healing, well we have a bevy of oGCD heals that let us just not interrupt our damage as is, the only way it would interfere with healing is if they went back to 2.5s cast times and gave us no instant cast options. It all comes back to how well they design the job. And good healers would know when to stop DPSing and focus on healing when things are going south.
I'd personally like some interplay between our GCD heals and damage kit, so that they don't feel like they're "fighting each other" but instead feel complementary. But that's another discussion.
In the context of healers, downtime refers to moments where we don't need healing. The incoming damage is typically separated enough in content (especially casual content) that you can get by with an oGCD heal, and spam your singular nuke until the next time incoming damage happens, which has us press a heal oGCD between the nukes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
The reason people ask for more DPS options on healers, (and note options, not extra damage itself), is because increasing the healing requirements in fights also increases the skill floor in completing that fight. By giving extra DoTs, a gauge to track, buffs to give, or whatever, increases the ceiling of healers while only mildly impacting the floor for less skilled players. -
10-10-2023, 02:23 PMLythThis is the downside of putting your votes in the Q+A thread behind an essay, rather than a specific question. The Living Dead question was quite literally just "Living Dead is terrible, when are you going to fix it?" and they did it within the same Live Letter. You may not have gotten a fix right in 6.0, but at least you'd have a better idea of the design plan going into 7.x.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne
The bulk of that essay talks about healer checks in harder content, and cites examples of healerless clears with skilled groups that had first cleared the fights using conventional strategies. There's a pretty large variation in healer skill in the playerbase, with some healers having cleared every bit of content on release for the past 10 years, and others who apparently think 24p raids and relic fates count as 'midcore' content. Because healer checks are pass-fail, this is one of the least flexible ways to test skill. Nobody wants to sit around while you raidwipe a group repeatedly in the process of figuring out your timings. Entry to harder content tends to be self-selecting because everyone knows this.
The question should have just been "The 'damage rotation' of healers is utterly boring, what are your plans to address this?" All supports end up with simplified damage rotations because a large portion of the action budget goes into defensive actions. The end result is that tanks end up as a simplified version of melee dps, and healers end up as a simplified version of caster dps. Unsurprisingly, the end result is a one button turret simulator. The only way this will improve is if they revise the action budget for support and offensive actions. -
10-10-2023, 02:49 PMOdinelStarreiHave to unfortunately agree here. The reason I think we got an answer to what was possibly my question was because I was very blunt about it, gave them multiple avenues of escaping responsibility by not pining them to address a contentious topic (for some reason???), and I had the luck of multiple content creators talking to devs directly about it in the past. Direct, hard questions to the development team will never get answered by the common rabble. So, I ask "Are there going to be any general adjustments to Dark Knight, specifically for Living Dead and Blood Weapon?" That should have been it, but I go a little testy with them and said "Quite a number of people are unhappy with the job at present" or something along those lines. That alone probably should have gotten my question thrown in the bin, but I made a point to not be accusatory, even if I had been essentially gaslit by Yoshida during the EW Media Tour. My heart said "Ask them why they keep destroying all your favorite jobs, like (insert your favorite job here), give them some sources and some hard facts!" and I feasibly could've gotten a lot more likes on that post. But then Yoshida would never answer. So I approached it as neutrally and concisely as possible, while still saying that people, not myself, but others have been voicing complaints about these issues specifically. That's the best you can do when you have a QA whose tone ranges between "Why are you killing the game" and "When can I romance Y'shtola" And even when the question was addressed, I remember it being pretty handwavy. Something like "There will be adjustments soon." which is unironically more information than anyone had gotten in what, two+ years? Big win!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
As much as I respect Recon and their posts (blessings be upon him wherever he may be), there was no adequate way to respond to his posts without outing the healer combat development as either malicious, ignorant or incompetent based on the wording of their question. Even if there was a perfect healer/tank/supports question that could concisely cover all of our bases without being too offensive to the development, be concise enough for an easy read, but deep enough to get to the nuance of our inquiry, I still doubt it would be answered, simply due to the optics around supports in general. I say this because of the response to the Kaiten debacle, where it was similarly wishy washy, not actually addressing any feedback, and ultimately, nothing of note being changed or reverted. That gave me all the proof I needed that they would not answer questions like the ones Recon and others pose in a satisfactory fashion for those most invested in their role. -
10-10-2023, 04:31 PMAbsurdityThe role is already incredibly boring with the current kits, you don't even need to reduce them to the insult that is healer gameplay. But I guess it would help with shining more light on an issue they've refused to address for 4 years now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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10-10-2023, 04:37 PMTurtledeluxeIf we give healers more buffing/debuffung wouldn't that tread on DNC and BRD and their future growth? If we continue going in the direction of "trinity is dead let all classes have everything" job identity becomes cosmetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
This is why I think a lot of Job discussion needs to be directed to what fights in general are demanding and how the dev team can breath new life into combat in general without focusing purely on difficulty or changing up job reaponsibilities. I'm not talking about fights needing more wipes but rather fights that have some kind of challenge aside from finding a safe spot or killing mobs. Maybe that requires entirely new types of bosses.
Let's say we do give healers buffs like protect and haste-- so the non threatening content becomes even more so and the zerg becomes more effective because spell speed and attack speed are hastened. In the current paradigm I don't think that serves us outside maybe savage and Ultimates. In casual content most things that hit you already afford you so much leeway before KO that protect and shell feel like overkill. Addle and Poison already exist in the game. Giving all these things to new classes is putting a bandaid on a bigger problem imo. Once again if we are continuing on this train of "f the trinity" plus the 2 minute meta then that demands more variety in the combat imo. With so many other new games out expanding on the traditional boss fight and design, it's crazy to me that XIV just kind of settles and tells you "well there's a tiny % of content that's engaging but you need a static etc to do it". And let's be honest those fights aren't necessarily innovative as much as they are iust all the mechanics of the game turned up to 11 and accelerated.
Isn't this part of why people enjoy the exploratory zones for example-- Eureka in particular verges on being an entirely different game, in a good way imo. -
10-10-2023, 05:05 PMTurtledeluxeThis makes sense but can we really say the average group is a competent group? I am just wondering if its the average healer driving the changes or the skilled healers ( or both). As you correctly point out, additional healing doesn't fix the problem. The problem is if the loop is too complex or if it (theoretically) expands the role in any way, the divide between average and talented player becomes massive. I would suspect that's what is driving a lack of progress in this area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sani2341
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10-10-2023, 05:31 PMZakuyiasure but we also need casuals to step up their game at this point. Stop running content with no materia o. oQuote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
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10-10-2023, 05:38 PMSebazy(alleged)Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
fights barely have what would be classified as downtime..
https://i.imgur.com/6PX0uD5.png
Nothing alleged about it sir. That's 2 AoEs in total in a 4:30 fight, one of which is the very first mechanic (like it always is).
You realise that actual numerical healer DPS is the lowest it's ever been comparative to the rest of the group right? Do you see anyone complaining about the amount of damage we do?Quote:
In other words why not just say what you mean...healers should do top dps bc why exactly? They are not a DPS.
I don't think you do.
What we are complaining about is the MANNER in which we do it.
Smashing 1 button endlessly for minutes at a time isn't fun, nor is it engaging.
How about you put your sorry little main character complex down for just a second and consider just how effing boring fights like the above get for a healer when there is LITERALLY NOTHING TO HEAL for ACTUAL MINUTES AT A TIME.
Lets have a fight that forces melee to disconnect and sit in the corner for several minutes because there are only there to carry me to the end credits amirite? Wait no, that's utterly stupid. -
10-10-2023, 06:01 PMSani2341The thing is, if we had more engaging things to do when not healing, be that buffs, debuffs or what have you, assuming healer dmg over all is tuned similar to how it is now, droping those if there is a need to heal more for whatever reason would at absolutely worst cost the party what 15% of the overall dps if both healers stop all their dmg? And even then only in the phases where that amount of healing is needed. Be it through mechanics or mistakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
And assuming that these fancy new options would only account for half a healers optimal dmg, not using them would be a 3% difference in Party dps per healer. Considering that 5% difference between Tanks is already a thing, those less experienced healers focusing more on Healing would rarely be the deciding Factor between making enrage and Not. -
10-10-2023, 07:00 PMMintnHoneyI think it's important to note that, when DNC was being introduced, many jobs (particularly AST and BRD) lost many buffs and debuffs that created "synergies" because, as YoshiP described, DNC was going to be the job that offered "synergy" as an identity. So, actually, it was DNC who did the "treading" in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
With that in mind, buffing and debuffing are not currently exclusive to DNC and BRD anyway, as most jobs have their own sets of buffs and debuffs. The knee-jerk reaction you had regarding healers possibly getting anything that isn't just more healing spells being an absolute problem just kind of shows how undervalued the actual Healer player is, because the role itself is not allowed to have that variation in their gameplay like every other job in the game simply due to concerns over the healer possibly making a mistake, or the player being initially incapable of healing through those times where one just couldn't (or otherwise chooses not to) avoid damage without some practice.
For any other job, in any other role, having little to do and lacking gameplay variation would be tragic. Mistakes are inevitable, but expected and okay!
But for healers: nah. Gotta keep the fun rolling for the rest of the party, so the healer can't be allowed to do anything else, just in case they need to press the sparkle button later.
And now I miss Semhirage.
Also, regarding job identity: it wouldn't necessarily suffer if "the trinity" suffers or even dies, but, given my prior observation/opinion/statement, I think it'd be fair to say that job identity suffers due to "the trinity." This is especially true when suddenly (as is the case for healers, apparently) trying to strictly adhere to the "roles."