Pictomancer is insanely overtuned and needs to be fixed before savage drops.

Oh hey, that meme is back

https://i.imgur.com/Ggs7D8E.png

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Oh hey, that meme is back

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Everyone knows lower level content is completely unbalanced. Like yea, it’s egregious, but that’s been the case since ShB (look at SMN at 70 lol) and really has no bearing on our discussion on level 100 balance.
But pop off king/queen, I’m sure the 6k gold RDM parse is super relevant.

PCT, VPR, RPR, SAM and MNK are fine. DRG and NIN need a slight tune up. BLM needs a big buff. That's it.

Rezzers and prange are a whole other can of worms that don't have a clear cut answer of where they should land. But it's fine and expected that they should not be in the same range of values that the jobs mentioned above are.
Regardless, we're bringing SMN and RDM to the first few fights and prange will always have a guaranteed spot. Rez is just too valuable to allow rezzers to hang out with the melees, BLM and PCT in terms of damage output. If you want them to be competitive with that group then rez needs to be removed from them first.

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Originally Posted by feffe

PCT, VPR, RPR, SAM and MNK are fine. DRG and NIN need a slight tune up. BLM needs a big buff. That's it.

Rezzers and prange are a whole other can of worms that don't have a clear cut answer of where they should land. But it's fine and expected that they should not be in the same range of values that the jobs mentioned above are.
Regardless, we're bringing SMN and RDM to the first few fights and prange will always have a guaranteed spot. Rez is just too valuable to allow rezzers to hang out with the melees, BLM and PCT in terms of damage output. If you want them to be competitive with that group then rez needs to be removed from them first.

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/thread

Phys ranged and SMN/RDM should have a smaller gap between them and the rest, but there should be one without a doubt.

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Originally Posted by feffe

PCT, VPR, RPR, SAM and MNK are fine. DRG and NIN need a slight tune up. BLM needs a big buff. That's it.

Rezzers and prange are a whole other can of worms that don't have a clear cut answer of where they should land. But it's fine and expected that they should not be in the same range of values that the jobs mentioned above are.
Regardless, we're bringing SMN and RDM to the first few fights and prange will always have a guaranteed spot. Rez is just too valuable to allow rezzers to hang out with the melees, BLM and PCT in terms of damage output. If you want them to be competitive with that group then rez needs to be removed from them first.

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Yeah, but there is actually a huge gap in DPS, and the rez doesn't justify such a difference in DPS, no matter how useful it is.

I think to balance the rezz issue they should allow SMN and RDM to have stances that disable their rezzes in exchange for more potency (either just “black magic stance; disallows the use of verraise and vercure. Potency of all spells and weapon skills increases by 10%” or otherwise “black magic stance; converts verraise to verultima and vercure to verglare”

This way SMN and RDM could be pushed to around NIN level if their raise it turned off (SMN would need more casts though)

Then phys ranged I would either just give them back walking casts, for example DNC feels like it’s dances should disallow you from running or walking at normal speed, the hypercharge window and any proc of refulgent arrow could be similar. Or otherwise give them distance positionals, for example heartbreak shot or could have to be short distance, but sidewinder prefers medium distance, you could even add in something like DNC’s dances having drop off damage by distance

If you did that then phys ranged would actually be able to justify high melee spots if they did had high complexity (like BRD)

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Originally Posted by ShadowNyx3

Sounds like a problem for the players to solve, not the developers.

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it only concerns a small proportion of the playerbase + you can still run rdm for m1s-m3s and pct for m4s with double melee

but another issue is if they are way more melee player than casters, it's a problem if the optimal comp si double caster + single melee

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Originally Posted by remiff

Yeah, but there is actually a huge gap in DPS, and the rez doesn't justify such a difference in DPS, no matter how useful it is.

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it justifies the gap, even with 5K less dps, I prefer to prog with a rdm than with a pct/blm

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

it only concerns a small proportion of the playerbase + you can still run rdm for m1s-m3s and pct for m4s with double melee

but another issue is if they are way more melee player than casters, it's a problem if the optimal comp si double caster + single melee

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Except there is nothing about PCT that is going to enforce a double caster comp I have no idea where you guys are getting this idea

PCT is only ahead above 95 and even at max the amount it does above the 2nd job doesn’t justify hard locking a spot to it

All PCT’s current damage position does is open the 4th slot to a caster as long as that caster is either PCT or BLM (once it get buffed), that doesn’t change that the 4th slot can also just as easily be filled with a melee. Melee will still be prioritised for that slot in comps that prefer safety as melee have more health so the tanks only need to protect one caster, and melees damage profile is more consistent than the damage casters

There is no creation of a preferred double caster comp it’s just becoming a soft option

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I think to balance the rezz issue they should allow SMN and RDM to have stances that disable their rezzes in exchange for more potency (either just “black magic stance; disallows the use of verraise and vercure. Potency of all spells and weapon skills increases by 10%” or otherwise “black magic stance; converts verraise to verultima and vercure to verglare”

This way SMN and RDM could be pushed to around NIN level if their raise it turned off (SMN would need more casts though)

Then phys ranged I would either just give them back walking casts, for example DNC feels like it’s dances should disallow you from running or walking at normal speed, the hypercharge window and any proc of refulgent arrow could be similar. Or otherwise give them distance positionals, for example heartbreak shot or could have to be short distance, but sidewinder prefers medium distance, you could even add in something like DNC’s dances having drop off damage by distance

If you did that then phys ranged would actually be able to justify high melee spots if they did had high complexity (like BRD)

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Here's a few possible solutions:
Put rez on 2 charges, 5 minute cooldown, this way you can but without being a cheesing machine gun.
Casting the res should cost more MP, at a point where repeatdly casting it in a short period of time forces SMN/RDM to stop casting.
Successfully casting a rez should grant SMN/RDM a debuff "mana drain" or something that taxes their damages that put them around today's level.

On all of these solution, the rez priority would go back to healers. Solution 2 could be a problem that would potentially forces SMN/RDM to drift their burst and misalign it with party buffs.

Phys ranged role requires a complete rework that redefines their... well, role. Casters have casts, Physical have melee range&positionals, Range have... A stronger addle?

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I may be wrong here but I think the patch that brings Savage is also going to bring some balance tweaks.

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Normally a couple of weeks after savage drops

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Here's a few possible solutions:
Put rez on 2 charges, 5 minute cooldown, this way you can but without being a cheesing machine gun.
Casting the res should cost more MP, at a point where repeatdly casting it in a short period of time forces SMN/RDM to stop casting.
Successfully casting a rez should grant SMN/RDM a debuff "mana drain" or something that taxes their damages that put them around today's level.

On all of these solution, the rez priority would go back to healers. Solution 2 could be a problem that would potentially forces SMN/RDM to drift their burst and misalign it with party buffs.

Phys ranged role requires a complete rework that redefines their... well, role. Casters have casts, Physical have melee range&positionals, Range have... A stronger addle?

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Your second suggestion sounds awful- not only might it bring problems for the burst phase (as you correctly identified), it's just a harsher rez tax since, if they really need to rez, it'd force them to go low on mana to the point they might not be able to keep the gcd rolling. No job should have an ability that feels like crap to use.

Idm the charge system but, ultimately, the rez is just slightly over-taxed. I actually see why it causes problems, but don't like the idea of removing it/changing it drastically. Casters are the only role that has some amount of uniqueness and identity left to its jobs- it's a big difference whether or not a caster has a rez. We can't be complaining about job homogenization and then propose that we sand them all to be the same. It's not like the rez or its tax have been horrible- things have been somewhat working so far, and the rez casters are historically more played than the one without it. I still think RDM needs a bump in its damage (and, honestly, in DT, SMN could use a nudge too, but that's a sweeping problem with all ranged jobs that aren't PCT), but I also don't want to destroy these small tidbits of job identity that casters have. It's a genuine consideration, for prog and pf runs, if you want to bring PCT/BLM for more damage (well... BLM isn't really more damage atm, but that's another problem on its own, ideally BLM would be a substantial gain in damage) or a caster that's more mobile and/or has a rez. I've wiped in runs I could've saved if I was a RDM in EW more than a few times.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

Your second suggestion sounds awful- not only might it bring problems for the burst phase (as you correctly identified), it's just a harsher rez tax since, if they really need to rez, it'd force them to go low on mana to the point they might not be able to keep the gcd rolling. No job should have an ability that feels like crap to use.

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Yes, that's the point of the suggestion, you can rez once but going further will severely hinder your rotation. Basically a big red (green?) button in case your healers go down.

Thought in the best of worlds, there would be no tax at all. I don't see the point of that tax, if everyone is alive the tax is paid for nothing.
Plus, the tax is supposedly already paid by the KO'd player...

I'm for a complete removal of the rez tax while making sure PCT and BLM reminds slightly higher.
Even if I believe utility should be its own balance, you still need something to justify the extra effort/risk.

Regardless of people's thoughts on RDM and SMN's placing, it's clear that PCT isn't "insanely overtuned". It's ahead, but not by much. The classes it's competing with are very close, just NIN, DRG and BLM needs buffs to bring them closer to the PCT, VPR, RPR, SAM and MNK pack.

You can say that SMN and RDM are undertuned, sure, but that doesn't make PCT overtuned.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I may be wrong here but I think the patch that brings Savage is also going to bring some balance tweaks.

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Honestly I admire your continued faith in the devs lol

I think tempera grassa is overrated as utility. If you use grassa, you can not use coat anymore for personal survival. Caster have the weakest defense in party, so PCT himself need shield the most. I remember progressing ucob with SMN and there was times everybody else survived, but SMN died with exactly same HP than everybody else. Now SMN is pretty immortal with that new personal shield. Difference is actually pretty big, if you used to play SMN before 6.0.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Yes, us casters can sit comfortably at a distance, every day I appreciate I play caster so I can enjoy a frictionless game experience. I can't imagine going through all these melee tribulations. Playing Viper especially sounds awful, gap closers and Uncoiled Fury? Oh, poor people. You have my sympathy.

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I mean, try it. Go get full uptime on melee in M2, M3, and M4. I bet you can't do it. Keep casting kid.

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Originally Posted by WhensMarvel

I mean, try it. Go get full uptime on melee in M2, M3, and M4. I bet you can't do it. Keep casting kid.

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I'll entertain this once you show me your perfect uptime BLM log on the same fights :)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Having a raid buff doesn’t factor into cDPS, so essentially using cDPS the only thing that PCT has over the “selfish” jobs is its shield

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Yes it does.

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cDPS stands for "Combined DPS" and is measuring how much damage you've done with single target padding removed and adding how much your damage you've given to others with your buffs.

As aDPS, cDPS does not include Devilment / Standard Finish, Astrologian cards, and Left Eye. But it will add any damage your buffs contributed to the raid as your own, much like rDPS.

Keep in mind that if you're one of the jobs that have zero AOE buffs that benefit others, this is literally the same as aDPS. This is true for any tank job, Samurai, White Mage, Sage, Black Mage and Machinist.

For example, if you are a Ninja receiving buffs from an Astrologian and Dragoon. cDPS would not include those, but would still include the damage gained from Divination and Battle Litany as well as the damage from your Mug ability.

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cDPS is essentially aDPS but with AoE raid buffs included. Which begs the question why does Picto have to be the top spot when it functions almost identically to Reaper and Monk? Like I said elsewhere, it's literally the best job in the game right now because it does everything well. Even cast times, which can be annoying, aren't nearly as punishing for it over Black Mage--it's sole competition as a Caster, assuming it even gets buffed.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

Melee flexibility means being able to keep perfect uptime while running around as long as the boss is in range. No caster can do that. For example, if you get a bad pattern on M3 with the emerald weapon mechanic into gravity puddles into lariat combo because your party moved wonky, you kinda just take the gcd loss and can't do anything about it, which is the opposite of what you describe as free uptime (actually, the mechanic you're talking about in P10S is also crap for BLM if the party isn't cooperative, which is basically every time in the pf). You also simply don't have enough Swiftcasts for how much *insert mechanic that's annoying for casters here*. It's still up in the air how the Savage fights will be designed, but we'll undoubtedly have aoe vomit of some variety that will force casters to run around while potentially losing gcds. Once again, you're not considering that melee can run around while hitting the boss if they're within max melee. It's impossible to keep caster uptime on that mechanic on some aoe/heart patterns (which are aimed at people, so they're borderline random) because you need to run around in random directions for a good 8-10s.

See how I can construe the same argument for casters? Have you ever played BLM or PCT in your life? You're under this impression they can run around for free no biggie for an arbitrary length of time. You'll find that is not true. Melee really did forget how to work for uptime, any friction is a crime and "casters have it real good" now.

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Because you typed a whole lot of nonsense trying to refute an argument I didn't even make. All while conveniently ignoring Casters can disengage from the boss entirely which is a luxury melee don't have. Now if this were Endwalker, we could argue the absurdity of melee uptime. There's a reason the enormous hit boxes were criticised, and ultimately reverted.

Even your M3 example is flawed because you're basing it around normal mode. No one is going to place puddles like that in Savage regularly because it will almost assuredly lead to damage downs or kill people, including the melee themselves, to future mechanic. A prime example of that being E3 where the chaos of headless chicken normal mode didn't extend to Savage. If you do get players that drop puddles randomly and refuse to make adjustments, well... kick them. They're bad. Balancing should never be decided on bad player performance. Regardless, you mention Swiftcast but fail to acknowledge Holy in White, which is your mobility option at only a .6% damage loss. So even in the worst case scenario, you're losing less than a melee forced out of range.

No, you just continue to make strawmen when you don't like an argument. I never once said Casters can "run around free no biggie." What I said, is they can disengage from the boss and stay along the wall. Which is often significantly easier barring some exceptions. You also assume I'm a melee player just because I'm critical of Picto being overtuned.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why is double caster bad, what is so wrong with PCT being top DPS and being paired with a rezz caster during prog

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This is the problem right here. Every critique of Picto's damage output assumes a black and white dichotomy. Most people aren't saying they have any issue with double caster. We're pointing out that assuming Black Mage gets buffed to Picto's level, both will be the undisputed best jobs in the game. They aren't on par with the melee, they're better than them. Like I said above, why does Picto, a job with both a raid buff and utility deal more damage than Monk or Reaper, who have the exact same thing.

To make this clear, if Black Mage dealt roughly around what Picto is now, then Picto itself was in the Monk/Dragoon or thereabouts. We wouldn't be having this discussion. In that scenario, double caster is still perfectly viable and quite strong. Especially if fights where melee uptime might be an issue--assuming the devs do move away from Endwalker's design. Case in point, E8S would 100% be a Caster play in this hypothetical given how much that fight hated melee. And that's fine. Right now though, Picto/BLM would just be better in every fight.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

I'll entertain this once you show me your perfect uptime BLM log on the same fights :)

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What's funny to me is that casters aren't saying that melee aren't challenged (for once), but it is the melee players that come here and in other threads to say how hard they have it while we *supposedly* actually have it easy. Which is very telling of which group has been costantly challenged in fights and which group has been babied for far too long, so much that at the first semblance of challenge they just crumble and overreact.

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Originally Posted by WhensMarvel

I mean, try it. Go get full uptime on melee in M2, M3, and M4. I bet you can't do it. Keep casting kid.

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I've played mnk, Sam and viper in all of those and full up time isn't hard at all.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Because you typed a whole lot of nonsense trying to refute an argument I didn't even make. All while conveniently ignoring Casters can disengage from the boss entirely which is a luxury melee don't have. Now if this were Endwalker, we could argue the absurdity of melee uptime. There's a reason the enormous hit boxes were criticised, and ultimately reverted.

Even your M3 example is flawed because you're basing it around normal mode. No one is going to place puddles like that in Savage regularly because it will almost assuredly lead to damage downs or kill people, including the melee themselves, to future mechanic. A prime example of that being E3 where the chaos of headless chicken normal mode didn't extend to Savage. If you do get players that drop puddles randomly and refuse to make adjustments, well... kick them. They're bad. Balancing should never be decided on bad player performance. Regardless, you mention Swiftcast but fail to acknowledge Holy in White, which is your mobility option at only a .6% damage loss. So even in the worst case scenario, you're losing less than a melee forced out of range.

No, you just continue to make strawmen when you don't like an argument. I never once said Casters can "run around free no biggie." What I said, is they can disengage from the boss and stay along the wall. Which is often significantly easier barring some exceptions. You also assume I'm a melee player just because I'm critical of Picto being overtuned.

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The absurdity is that you live in lala-land where you think only melee jobs are challenged for uptime, and the non-SMN casters are not- by consistently highlighting their range but neglecting to draw the comparison with the fact you can do damage while moving. Just as it's absurd to think Savage will magically only challenge melee and not casters, who had way more on their plate in recent fights. It'd be like me saying melee uptime is free by noting that TOP p1 and p6 can be back-breaking for casters if your team isn't lending you a hand, and even then, you're bleeding all of your burst to keep almost perfect uptime.
I get it, you think melee jobs have it the worst out of all dps, somehow ignoring the last 3 Savage tiers we had were extremely pro-melee and difficult for non-SMN casters. You're being downright dishonest because you think the range somehow makes the cast bars vanish. I could go over more examples, like Superchain I, Pangenesis, 10S whenever you need to break tethers, Fourfold Fires, Dominion, some Harvests depending on strat... or, if you want to go further back, Singular Apocalypse, Icelit Dragonsong, Light Rampant and Diamondfrost on any non-pure uptime strat (you know, the ones that get melee full uptime, usually also benefit casters, almost like both roles have challenges to their uptime!)... even further back, Pantokrator, Hello World 2, Forsaken 2 (especially painful because it's followed by Celestriad > Trine).

Here's the difference: I understand that melee are challenged for uptime in these new NMs. I've posted in other threads telling people that this is why we need a "mobility tax" on physical ranged jobs (which are over-taxed right now, but that's another problem). You seem to be making up this purely fictitious scenario where casters get free uptime. Which is nonsense and has always be nonsense. Worst, your argument of "people won't run like headless chickens in Savage" also counters your own examples. If the group moves slowly together on Honey Bee's heart spam, the hearts, which are directed at players, will all be dodged at the same time, and everyone keeps uptime. Because you never touched a caster in your life, you also don't realize that the emerald weapon > dark puddles > double lariat is around the time you have a 2 minutes, so you can't just mindless spam Holy in White unless you want to tank your dps. You need to fit four casts there, or you going to either lose burst or drift. Is it possible to do perfectly? Sometimes. Depends on the party you get. BLM is losing uptime there no matter what (and not utilizing their Ley Lines)- but hey, BLM is a caster! Surely their uptime is free.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Yes it does.
cDPS is essentially aDPS but with AoE raid buffs included. Which begs the question why does Picto have to be the top spot when it functions almost identically to Reaper and Monk? Like I said elsewhere, it's literally the best job in the game right now because it does everything well. Even cast times, which can be annoying, aren't nearly as punishing for it over Black Mage--it's sole competition as a Caster, assuming it even gets buffed.

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So, the problem is that PCT is top cdps? Was it ok, in both patches 6.4 and 6.5, that the top cdps job between the 70% and 95% was a melee, SAM? Was it a problem that, in all of EW, out of the top 5 cdps jobs, 4 were always melee? In patches 6.0 thru 6.3, the top 2 were both melee too. Is that ok?
Or is it just a problem when the top cdps is a caster? If a melee job got buffed to be first place, would it be overtuned? Were those melees overtuned in EW, according to your vision? If the situation repeats itself- like it probably will- does it become acceptable?


(Funny enough, I went to take a look at the funky spreadsheet site, and you, yourself, lost uptime- in fact, you're behind the melee in uptime on most of your own logs... so I literally do not understand how you can't see the problem after having experienced it yourself)

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This is the problem right here. Every critique of Picto's damage output assumes a black and white dichotomy. Most people aren't saying they have any issue with double caster. We're pointing out that assuming Black Mage gets buffed to Picto's level, both will be the undisputed best jobs in the game. They aren't on par with the melee, they're better than them. Like I said above, why does Picto, a job with both a raid buff and utility deal more damage than Monk or Reaper, who have the exact same thing.

To make this clear, if Black Mage dealt roughly around what Picto is now, then Picto itself was in the Monk/Dragoon or thereabouts. We wouldn't be having this discussion. In that scenario, double caster is still perfectly viable and quite strong. Especially if fights where melee uptime might be an issue--assuming the devs do move away from Endwalker's design. Case in point, E8S would 100% be a Caster play in this hypothetical given how much that fight hated melee. And that's fine. Right now though, Picto/BLM would just be better in every fight.

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Best jobs for what?
Prog? Certaintly not, you are better off replacing at least one of them for SMN/RDM if you are running double caster (preferably BLM).
To clear for the average group and better than average group? Debatable, especially considering BLM. It's an inflexible job now that still requires skill to just keep basic uptime, let alone optimize. You would be better off playing an easier job that can provide high damage faster and with less effort required.
For speed kills/farm runs? Yeah, I guess. And this matters how?

What does Monk/Dragoon mean? Are we talking about data or vibes here? MNK is unquestionably better than DRG, it deals more damage and actually has utility (which is also stronger/more versatile than PCT's). Since you guys love to consider the 99th percentile, in EX1 MNK is the third strongest DPS, behind PCT and SAM. Dragoon is the weakest melee, on par with NIN. It's a problem for you that PCT, a job with utility, does a bit more damage than MNK and RPR, jobs with utility, but somehow it's perfectly fine to you that MNK and even RPR deal more damage than DRG, which has no utility. Even better: the difference between MNK and DRG is bigger than the difference between PCT and MNK!

Galvuu already addressed this (and we talked about this 596 times already), but do you really believe that if melee uptime is a problem, caster uptime on the other hand isn't? Especially when your entire argument relies on the assumption that if BLM is buffed, everyone will play it and everyone will be good at it because it's an easy jobwith free uptime, unlike those poor melees (won't anyone think of the melees?)?!


You guys couldn't be more clueless about casters even if you tried, I swear.

So currently the problem with balance is not really Picto anymore as we can see the adps chart looks like how it should be between Picto and the top melees. (used to be a problem when the highest adps was picto in EX2 and above Viper in EX1 which should never be the case for Adps)

Now the only problem is BLM (Needs a major buff/a rework since it feels like shit to play without transpose rotation) and the melee dps that are falling behind a bit (minor buff for NIN and DRG).
RDM is a discussion whether it should be buffed of not. Imo it should be buffed so its bit behind the other melees due to the amount of rezzes it can cast.

Other than that the balance is fine as it is for the dps role.

Actually looking at logs Picto can be nerfed a tad bit because the difference between 2nd rdps and picto (1st rdps) its worse than the difference between GNB and other tanks which is good but not great. So after looking at the data picto can use a bit of a nerf (Not a lot but a bit, maybe reduce the potency on some of those skills by a small amount will do)

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Yes it does.



cDPS is essentially aDPS but with AoE raid buffs included. Which begs the question why does Picto have to be the top spot when it functions almost identically to Reaper and Monk? Like I said elsewhere, it's literally the best job in the game right now because it does everything well. Even cast times, which can be annoying, aren't nearly as punishing for it over Black Mage--it's sole competition as a Caster, assuming it even gets buffed.

To make this clear, if Black Mage dealt roughly around what Picto is now, then Picto itself was in the Monk/Dragoon or thereabouts. We wouldn't be having this discussion. In that scenario, double caster is still perfectly viable and quite strong. Especially if fights where melee uptime might be an issue--assuming the devs do move away from Endwalker's design. Case in point, E8S would 100% be a Caster play in this hypothetical given how much that fight hated melee. And that's fine. Right now though, Picto/BLM would just be better in every fight.

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When I said “it doesn’t factor into cDPS” I meant it’s already included as in you can’t go “oh it’s first in cDPS then also has a raid buff on top of that” because the raid buff contribution is already counted amongst the cDPS, so PCT’s only extra utility when factoring in cDPS is tempra grassa

As for buffing BLM, you seem to harbour the illusion that just because PCT’s 100th percentile pulls away because of massive crit luck in the starry muse window that PCT is just unequivocally the better class at all percentiles which it’s not, it falls away incredibly quickly below the top and like BLM has an extremely wide IQR indicating a large variance in skill level. This is how it should be, in general the casters have to fight harder for their uptime than the melee (this has been true since about HW) so their ceilings should be higher

If you think BLM and PCT exceeding the peaks of the melee at 95+ means a hard double caster meta will form that’s just dooming because 19 out of 20 PCT’s will put out less damage than the melee

I'm not that worried about PCT damage for savage, it's just BLM (and really the casters in general) that need to be buffed.

I am worried about PCT in ultimates. The job already completely nukes trash pulls in dungeons with the way you get muses back, but that doesn't matter because that's just dungeons. However being able to cast muses during downtime in ultimates has the potential to create a huge balance problem, you can already see this in the limited data we have on legacy ultimate clears.

It's possible to design around this (have the downtime prevent any casting, use cutscenes/down for the count, have long uptime phases) but I don't like how the job gets so much stronger with downtime relative to all the other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Realfoxy

I'm not that worried about PCT damage for savage, it's just BLM (and really the casters in general) that need to be buffed.

I am worried about PCT in ultimates. The job already completely nukes trash pulls in dungeons with the way you get muses back, but that doesn't matter because that's just dungeons. However being able to cast muses during downtime in ultimates has the potential to create a huge balance problem, you can already see this in the limited data we have on legacy ultimate clears.

It's possible to design around this (have the downtime prevent any casting, use cutscenes/down for the count, have long uptime phases) but I don't like how the job gets so much stronger with downtime relative to all the other jobs.

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1) Legacy Ultimates don't matter because they are not balanced anymore. For numbers worth discussing, we have to wait for 7.X Ultimates

2) It's healthy for the game to have jobs that excel in different scenarios, because that means jobs are different and unique instead of being more of the same. PCT shouldn't be neutered to be the same as the rest but should instead be used as a model to have unique jobs again. Jobs that are stronger with downtime, or if you are forced to disengage, or if there are multiple enemies and so on. This requires the community to do a "culture" shift and stop freaking out because of irrelevant dfferences. As this thread shows this is a big demand, but you can't have unique and fun jobs that are also perfectly balanced. Note: for a lot of people "perfectly balanced" means that all melees deal similar damage, what happens with RDM/SMN and phys ranged doesn't matter.

3) Ultimates are more about mechanical execution and consistency, rather than DPS checks. A stronger DPS won't cause a "huge balance problem", not as much as you think. Balance exists to ensure that every job is capable of clearing every fight and balance is good if I can also clear without a perfect execution on my part (compared to other jobs).

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Originally Posted by rewd

1) Legacy Ultimates don't matter because they are not balanced anymore. For numbers worth discussing, we have to wait for 7.X Ultimates

2) It's healthy for the game to have jobs that excel in different scenarios, because that means jobs are different and unique instead of being more of the same. PCT shouldn't be neutered to be the same as the rest but should instead be used as a model to have unique jobs again. Jobs that are stronger with downtime, or if you are forced to disengage, or if there are multiple enemies and so on. This requires the community to do a "culture" shift and stop freaking out because of irrelevant dfferences. As this thread shows this is a big demand, but you can't have unique and fun jobs that are also perfectly balanced. Note: for a lot of people "perfectly balanced" means that all melees deal similar damage, what happens with RDM/SMN and phys ranged doesn't matter.

3) Ultimates are more about mechanical execution and consistency, rather than DPS checks. A stronger DPS won't cause a "huge balance problem", not as much as you think. Balance exists to ensure that every job is capable of clearing every fight and balance is good if I can also clear without a perfect execution on my part (compared to other jobs).

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1. Legacy ultimate balance should actually matter, SE just doesn't give a shit about it for some reason. I'd rather they keep it in mind while balancing than not.

2. I agree that it's good to have some job differentiation, I just don't think that having such a clear damage difference is good differentiation.

3. Really don't get this sentiment when DPS checks were a major part of on patch difficulty for TOP, and the DPS check for it was still relevant even a few patches later.

Anyway, I'd just prefer that PCT get some of its damage shifted into its uptime combos rather than its muses, that would mitigate the problem somewhat.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

I've played mnk, Sam and viper in all of those and full up time isn't hard at all.

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Ive played picto and viper/drg on m1-m4

picto casts are way easier than melee uptime

Picto needs a nerf, and even with Squares Mentality to just bring everyone up it doesnt work this time, we are not talking about a small gap or a lil bigger gap, we are talking about 8% to the next highest DPS, its way too much.

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Originally Posted by Realfoxy

1. Legacy ultimate balance should actually matter, SE just doesn't give a shit about it for some reason. I'd rather they keep it in mind while balancing than not.

2. I agree that it's good to have some job differentiation, I just don't think that having such a clear damage difference is good differentiation.

3. Really don't get this sentiment when DPS checks were a major part of on patch difficulty for TOP, and the DPS check for it was still relevant even a few patches later.

Anyway, I'd just prefer that PCT get some of its damage shifted into its uptime combos rather than its muses, that would mitigate the problem somewhat.

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1) They should matter but they don't. It's not that SE doesn't care, it's just that it is a big task that doesn't match the resources the game has. We have tons of job that gain and lose skills with a new expansion and some of them undergo mid-expansion reworks or changes. We also keep getting new jobs and new ultimates. It's a lot of work for a team that already struggles to design and balance jobs for current content

3) TOP is one ultimate out of five. In other words, the proverbial exception to the rule. If the DT ultimates have strict DPS checks, then we will be able to talk about the paradigm shift in Ultimate design.

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

Picto needs a nerf, and even with Squares Mentality to just bring everyone up it doesnt work this time, we are not talking about a small gap or a lil bigger gap, we are talking about 8% to the next highest DPS, its way too much.

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No what PCT needs is a reduction in the ability for it to crit to an insane level at the 100th percentile without affecting anything below 95 because that’s its only real balance problem

Any nerf that’d just flat “it’s 8% stronger so nerf it 8%” will murder it at anything below 90

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

No what PCT needs is a reduction in the ability for it to crit to an insane level at the 100th percentile without affecting anything below 95 because that’s its only real balance problem

Any nerf that’d just flat “it’s 8% stronger so nerf it 8%” will murder it at anything below 90

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FFlogs has done irreparable damage to this community. It's hard to teach people about crit variance and that a raid buff is not utility.

This is a pretty painful thread to read. The main problems with pictomancer are

1. It has the highest burst potential in the game
2. It can frequently benefit from downtimes and small damage frames in ways no other dps job can
3. It is probably slightly overtuned, but the bigger problem is the other casters (black mage in particular) being in an awful spot

The only changes that are really needed are

1. Shift some power from paintings/burst window into filler buttons instead
2. Give the job a minor nerf to overall potency at most
3. Buff other jobs (especially black mage) as necessary

Suggested changes would make pictomancer healthier in down-time heavy content where it's absolutely cracked right now (ultimates, dungeons, outworld) while making the damage spikes on higher echelons of damage percentiles smaller while bringing up jobs that actually need help.

There is nothing wrong with pictomancer being among the top raid damage jobs, but it would be silly if it was consistently beating selfish jobs at adjusted damage. Which it really isn't, except when all of you are looking at pictomancer numbers in the 100th and upper end of the 99th percentile. Which just highlights how ridiculous the damage fluctuation on the job can be rather than being a very compelling point that the entire job needs heavy nerfs across board. Reducing potencies in burst and shifting it more into sustained damage via filler buttons would fix this issue and put it in a proper place when it comes to overall adjusted damage metrics.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

No what PCT needs is a reduction in the ability for it to crit to an insane level at the 100th percentile without affecting anything below 95 because that’s its only real balance problem

Any nerf that’d just flat “it’s 8% stronger so nerf it 8%” will murder it at anything below 90

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Its not about nerfing it 8%, that is not what i said, i literally said Picto is 8% AHEAD of everything else, and it needs a nerf to it, nerf it a bit while buffing the other one up, that will happen in the end, so you dont kill Picto, i have no issue at all when Picto is a TOP DPS Class,

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Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

This is a pretty painful thread to read. The main problems with pictomancer are

1. It has the highest burst potential in the game
2. It can frequently benefit from downtimes and small damage frames in ways no other dps job can
3. It is probably slightly overtuned, but the bigger problem is the other casters (black mage in particular) being in an awful spot

The only changes that are really needed are

1. Shift some power from paintings/burst window into filler buttons instead
2. Give the job a minor nerf to overall potency at most
3. Buff other jobs (especially black mage) as necessary

Suggested changes would make pictomancer healthier in down-time heavy content where it's absolutely cracked right now (ultimates, dungeons, outworld) while making the damage spikes on higher echelons of damage percentiles smaller while bringing up jobs that actually need help.

There is nothing wrong with pictomancer being among the top raid damage jobs, but it would be silly if it was consistently beating selfish jobs at adjusted damage. Which it really isn't, except when all of you are looking at pictomancer numbers in the 100th and upper end of the 99th percentile. Which just highlights how ridiculous the damage fluctuation on the job can be rather than being a very compelling point that the entire job needs heavy nerfs across board. Reducing potencies in burst and shifting it more into sustained damage via filler buttons would fix this issue and put it in a proper place when it comes to overall adjusted damage metrics.

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Finally someone speaking some sense here.

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

Its not about nerfing it 8%, that is not what i said, i literally said Picto is 8% AHEAD of everything else, and it needs a nerf to it, nerf it a bit while buffing the other one up, that will happen in the end, so you dont kill Picto, i have no issue at all when Picto is a TOP DPS Class,

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It’s 8% AHEAD at 100, whereas at 50-95 it’s perfectly balanced and below 50 it falls away very hard

This is the problem, you cannot look at PCT’s 100 and go “yep it’s overpowered nerf it” because you are missing that 99 in 100 PCT’s won’t reach that ceiling, the job needs its ability to crit fish reduced in the starry muse window, not actually take a raw percentage nerf even if that percentage nerf is less than 8%

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Originally Posted by Realfoxy

Finally someone speaking some sense here.

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We have been saying the same things for pages while dodging unhealthy amounts of "SAM should do more damage because it doesn't have a raid buff", "Casters can happily cast in Narnia" and other hot takes but ok.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s 8% AHEAD at 100, whereas at 50-95 it’s perfectly balanced and below 50 it falls away very hard

This is the problem, you cannot look at PCT’s 100 and go “yep it’s overpowered nerf it” because you are missing that 99 in 100 PCT’s won’t reach that ceiling, the job needs its ability to crit fish reduced in the starry muse window, not actually take a raw percentage nerf even if that percentage nerf is less than 8%

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Dont get me wrong i understand your point and with biggest respect but you cant balance classes around old outdated content, i understand the point about 90-100 thats something square needs to look into it to prevent killing picto, but everything under 90 doesnt really matter anymore