Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

I've yet to encounter any issues with the demis following me around and refusing to do as their told so far. We do not need to see a comeback of that mechanic I'm aware is viewed by some as indicative of their high skill level.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

Bahamut now auto fires Wyrmwave when summoned at what ever enemy you have targeted. That interaction is still there, but no longer dependent on if you miss a GCD or don't have the optimal set up for whatever reason.

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So that interactions is gone and the job also lost some complexity, got it.

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Originally Posted by rewd

So that interactions is gone and the job also lost some complexity, got it.

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Not complexity, jank. That was an issue everyone wanted solved and now it is

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

Not complexity, jank. That was an issue everyone wanted solved and now it is

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Not jank, perfectly manageable in ShB and it was objectively more complex by having a cast condition instead of being unconditional. Speak for yourself instead of trying to speak for "everyone".

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Not jank, perfectly manageable in ShB and it was objectively more complex by having a cast condition instead of being unconditional. Speak for yourself instead of trying to speak for "everyone".

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Fine, not everyone, but a majority of SMN players that discussed it daily in game and on the forums. Yes, the situation was manageable, but it is also a situation that should not exist in the first place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

Fine, not everyone, but a majority of SMN players that discussed it daily in game and on the forums. Yes, the situation was manageable, but it is also a situation that should not exist in the first place.

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The situation that shouldn't exist is a blatantly unfinished job replacing one players enjoyed for 8 years. The only legitimate demi issue in ShB was Phoenix starting off with an everlasting flight cast ghosting a scarlet flame if you used a gcd too quickly.

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

One of the most talked about issues with Bahamut and Phoenix was their autos ghosting on summoning and them moving and not attacking. That issue has now been solved, and yet somehow that is something people want to complain about. Why, I ask?

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They could've solved the issue by making them stationary, which has several times been asked so. The issue was solved in EW by making them stationary. No one has complained about it.

Now. Why did they have to remove the whole interaction along with it? Nothing was gained, only lost.
Remember that if you couldn't be bothered you could still get all the wyrmwaves by just spamming ruin II? And that's with movement, something I did several times in Emerald Weapon during that spinning AoE phase. Well, that's literally all you do now, you spam Astral Impulse Ruin II. But what purpose does having the pet stationary now accomplish if all you CAN do is spam Ruin II? The ghosting of actions happened when you tried to optimize and cast Ruin III/IVs. There's no such thing now. In the end the change was pointless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tearagion

The situation that shouldn't exist is a blatantly unfinished job replacing one players enjoyed for 8 years. The only legitimate demi issue in ShB was Phoenix starting off with an everlasting flight cast ghosting a scarlet flame if you used a gcd too quickly.

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Players enjoyed for 8 years, huh. Now who is speaking for everyone? As I have said multiple times already, I do believe there are improvements to be made, especially at lower levels. But all of this doom-saying that the job has been annihilated and lost all its perceived complexity is pure hyperbole.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Not jank, perfectly manageable in ShB and it was objectively more complex by having a cast condition instead of being unconditional. Speak for yourself instead of trying to speak for "everyone".

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Indeed. Not to mention that it doesn't take much brainpower to come up with slight adjustments to keep the old gameplay loop the same on new SMN too:

- Phoenix still has its combo and it's the mobile Demi
- Bahamut has cast times on Astral Impulse and Flare
- Primals/Egis let us generate several Ruin IV stacks just like the old Assaults
- Ruin IV has increased potency under Dreadwyrm Trance so the Bahamut loop is still hardcasts (old Ruin III and new Astral Impulse) and instacasts (old and new Ruin IV)

Mindblowing. But hey, apparently SMN didn't lose any complexity, we just aren't ready to see it.

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

Players enjoyed for 8 years, huh. Now who is speaking for everyone? As I have said multiple times already, I do believe there are improvements to be made, especially at lower levels. But all of this doom-saying that the job has been annihilated and lost all its perceived complexity is pure hyperbole.

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"Players" as in people who played summoner, I thought this was contextually obvious. How is it doomsaying? The old job is indeed annihilated, not even ruin 3 is the same. I realize there is nothing to do about that SE never reverts anything. My issue is what remains is the most vapid job in the history of the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

Bahamut now auto fires Wyrmwave when summoned at what ever enemy you have targeted. That interaction is still there, but no longer dependent on if you miss a GCD or don't have the optimal set up for whatever reason.

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Yes. You press a button and then forget about it. Same thing with Phoenix. Wyrmfire/Scarlet Flame are cast at whatever you target, but they will also just continuously fire until their timer runs out without any further input from you. Which basically makes them, now, time limited Egi's. And to equate Rite and Catrastrophe to the Egi Assaults is a blatant misrepresentation of the interaction that was had between the Summoner and the Egi's. The Egi assaults were oGCDs, came from your Egi's, and did not lock out the casts of normal Ruin and Outburst with two more buttons. Rite and Catastrophe are GCDs, come from you, lock the casts of Run and Tridisaster (which is really just Outburst so another needles change), adding two more buttons while actually giving you LESS to do and less interaction. Additionally, Astral Flow has nothing to do with the Enkindle abilities of Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan applying only to the activation of Deathflare and Rekindle. The actual "enkindle" was made into a trait and is the new, single attacks that still, in my own personal experience, still seem to miss half the mobs even if I'm standing right in the middle (where as a I caster I should not be) outside of Garuda. Before, it was much easier to utilize them seeing as you had the control over their position before a fight even began and then immediately have them heading towards the target you desired by either attack or order.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tearagion

"Players" as in people who played summoner, I thought this was contextually obvious. How is it doomsaying? The old job is indeed annihilated, not even ruin 3 is the same. I realize there is nothing to do about that SE never reverts anything. My issue is what remains is the most vapid job in the history of the game.

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Again, players, as in people who play summoner, is a totality. As evidenced by the several ongoing threads, not everyone who plays the job was onboard with 2.0-5.0 SMN, just as not every player is on board with 6.0 SMN. But again, saying that everything that made SMN a SMN is gone is simply not true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

Again, players, as in people who play summoner, is a totality. As evidenced by the several ongoing threads, not everyone who plays the job was onboard with 2.0-5.0 SMN, just as not every player is on board with 6.0 SMN. But again, saying that everything that made SMN a SMN is gone is simply not true.

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Pretty sure the only thing that didn't change was Physick (edit: I forgot Resurrection, whoops). Old SMN was annihilated not even a hyperbole. "Players" isn't a totality I'm not sure where you learned English, "every" is the specific word/affix that indicates no exception.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Pretty sure the only thing that didn't change was Physick (edit: I forgot Resurrection, whoops). Old SMN was annihilated not even a hyperbole. "Players" isn't a totality I'm not sure where you learned English, "every" is the specific word/affix that indicates no exception.

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Players is contextually in this instance a totality because you fail to specify the limitations of the statement. You said "something that players enjoyed playing for 8 years." What players? All players, new players, endgame players? Your own words. I have provided clear evidence that that is not the case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

Players is contextually in this instance a totality because you fail to specify the limitations of the statement. You said "something that players enjoyed playing for 8 years." What players? All players, new players, endgame players? Your own words. I have provided clear evidence that that is not the case.

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It's not contextually a totality lol that's not how language works, it doesn't require a limitation. I would have specified every player if I wanted to talk about all of them. Sorry if you interpreted contrary to the standard.

Wow, I almost feel bad for having fun with the rework.
Why do I do this to myself... I should stop reading threads like this...

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Originally Posted by rewd

Does anyone have an explanation as to why SMN discussions always seem to attract either trolls or clueless clowns? It can't be a coincidence anymore.

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Because when you release a shallow job, you get shallow people apparently

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Wow, I almost feel bad for having fun with the rework.
Why do I do this to myself... I should stop reading threads like this...

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Right? I genuinely feel like I should feel guilty for having fun. As if everyone on the forums is collectively saying "oh...you enjoy the new summoner? what's wrong with you?"

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Wow, I almost feel bad for having fun with the rework.
Why do I do this to myself... I should stop reading threads like this...

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Please don't feel bad for having fun with the rework. This was an inevitable outcome due to the tw pillars of opinion that has divided Summoner since its inception. On one side we had those that liked the overly complex, focused on dots and on the other we had those who wanted the summons to be more meaningful. The later won the war between Summoners identity.

In terms of design i think its really good and do have fun with it. But i will also agree its too simple for a level 90 job. Essentially its a good base for SMN but needs some mechanical adjustments to add a bit more complexity into it. I suspect this will come in 6.1 - they gave up Phoenix buffs in 6.05 as a band aid and will do meaningful adjustments later.

I think though the hard truth of the matter is that any rework always has a risk of leaving people behind. But for summoner it was always going to be more costly because the rework was not only about making the job play better, but was also about giving it a set identity it has lacked since inception and consolidating its design approach. The overly convoluted and hard job, was simply a mizing pot of design approaches that had to go. I do feel for those who have lost their main. (I too hve mained summoner since Arr Beta.) But this rework has the right design approach and given some adjustments and added complexity wwill make a very solid job. Assuming of course they do add the complexity and to be real, it is very possible we won't see that complexity until 7.0 and beyond. I truly doubt that, and hope i am wrong on that front.

The job is fun and they just need to start adding more summons to it as time goes on.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

The job is fun and they just need to start adding more summons to it as time goes on.

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Can I ask why you find it fun ?

It feels lacking. At first I welcomed this change, until I leveled it. I do not understand why they would add those super old summons to level 90. I could of understood if they upgraded earlier and we got a new summon instead. They really love reusing old features over and over. Even if some animations are new such as the different ruin iterations - I really cant say that I'm happy with the job. It lacks OGCD's and it definetly needs more "busy" time.
They tend to argue about "player stress" during liveletters, but really - nothing is more fun than a rewarding dps rotation with good numbers.

i was thinking, and i think the adjustments id like are as follows:

Return akh morn to x2 rather than the one we get currently. It would mean half potency but this would be acceptible to me, as it would give more to do. Maybe even make the Bahamut flare a cast rather than instant.

for the Arcanums I think Titan is fine as he is, but Garuda and Ifrit needs a little, work - though what to complicate it Im not really sure.

I think ultimately the issue is you can add new things to make more button presses, but that does not neccesarily make it more complex. But variance to the button mechanics is really what is needed. I suppose this is why, titan, Garuda and Ifrit phases are different, the only issue is that its not enough, an additional skill for all three could potentially do this, but then again maybe not.

Oh and id also make it so carbuncle doesnt go anywhere / his skills can be used by all summons. Its rather annoying to not be able to use them, then again this does add another thing to consider within the rotation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

Please don't feel bad for having fun with the rework. This was an inevitable outcome due to the tw pillars of opinion that has divided Summoner since its inception. On one side we had those that liked the overly complex, focused on dots and on the other we had those who wanted the summons to be more meaningful. The later won the war between Summoners identity.

In terms of design i think its really good and do have fun with it. But i will also agree its too simple for a level 90 job. Essentially its a good base for SMN but needs some mechanical adjustments to add a bit more complexity into it. I suspect this will come in 6.1 - they gave up Phoenix buffs in 6.05 as a band aid and will do meaningful adjustments later.

I think though the hard truth of the matter is that any rework always has a risk of leaving people behind. But for summoner it was always going to be more costly because the rework was not only about making the job play better, but was also about giving it a set identity it has lacked since inception and consolidating its design approach. The overly convoluted and hard job, was simply a mizing pot of design approaches that had to go. I do feel for those who have lost their main. (I too hve mained summoner since Arr Beta.) But this rework has the right design approach and given some adjustments and added complexity wwill make a very solid job. Assuming of course they do add the complexity and to be real, it is very possible we won't see that complexity until 7.0 and beyond. I truly doubt that, and hope i am wrong on that front.

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You had me for a moment until the later parts and a bit in the beginning.

The summons feel even less meaningful in this inception of Summoner.
Right now it honestly feels like we've become a rather generic mage flinging around spells that happen to look like the primals, taking away any identity that we've had.

The rework was rushed and ill thought of, and just appeased the people that claim that carelessly flinging around a spell with a primal's effect = Summoner.

It's fine if you like it, but do understand where some of us are coming from and also that it wasn't just about the DoTs. The DoTs I liked because it was something relatively new to Summoner, no longer being coupled to either Black Mage/White mage. But now we're basically something that attempts being a mage while spectacularly failing at doing so. It has no identity right now.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Not gonna lie, I went over the ability list like 5 times furiously trying to find what was missing from my hotbars.

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Just started today with it and was like... "what... why are there only 2 hotbars filled...?" lol

Its not bad but really really weird...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

It feels lacking. At first I welcomed this change, until I leveled it. I do not understand why they would add those super old summons to level 90. I could of understood if they upgraded earlier and we got a new summon instead. They really love reusing old features over and over. Even if some animations are new such as the different ruin iterations - I really cant say that I'm happy with the job. It lacks OGCD's and it definetly needs more "busy" time.
They tend to argue about "player stress" during liveletters, but really - nothing is more fun than a rewarding dps rotation with good numbers.

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Lore wise it made sence as we learn why primals temped in the first place, it just kidna suffers from not having any context....

I am actually really enjoying it and I am sure plenty of people are going to either insult my intelligence because of it, or tell me all the reasons I shouldn't. A lot of people talk about just "providing feedback" but then go one to insult everyone that likes the job and how much smarter they are because they really got the old iteration of the job. Feedback looks like this "Summoner has a lot of free space on it's hot bars and could use some more abilities to give it some variety in it's rotation". Feedback is not "New summoner rotation is so dumbed down." What I like about Summoner now is that the rotation is very tight, everything works together and if you are keeping your GCD rolling you can easily fit in all your summons, their charges for gemshine and astral flow, your ruin IV proc, and even a few seconds of wiggle room for when I end up clipping a radiant aegis or something. There is certainly room for more though, and while I do enjoy it I understand the feeling that a job at lvl 90 should have a little more going on than this. That really is the crux of the issues with Summoner, if this was back at level 50 or 60 then no problem, there would be a lot of growth ahead but as it is most other jobs are developed more than Summoner is at this point.

The way I see this new SMN, having played with it through the whole MSQ and beyond, is that right now the job is as flat as possible in terms of job mechanics and bad designed.

For example, if you're in a mob trash/boss trasition and Phoenix/Bahamut returns from CD before you finish using your three summons you're better skipping them and go for Phoenix/Bahamut right away.
How can a job works against its own skills like that?
You wanted to see those primals being summoned and do flashy stuff but now, given the way they are designed, you're encoraged to skip them (the main focus of our job) for the sake of dps.
This is no flexibility, it's bad design.

Also, we have Ruin III but rarely use it. I don't want to spam it but it's basically forgotten after LV90.
Ruin IV is a joke right now and it was our best spell to use with Bahamut.


The job needs at least one mechanic that encorages the use of the three summons to maximaze dps. At least this will give something to manage and optimize. For example:

- For each summon used you get a stack or something to unlock a skill that has potency based on number of stacks you have (like Fester used to work with the dots). Could call it Tri-disaster and rename the basic aoe spell Outburst again or whatever.

- Reduce Attunement duration to 15 secs but make it so we have (or at least be encoraged to) stay the whole window in it (some tweaks in the attuned skills would be in order I guess) before using next summon.

- Delete the current Ruin IV and make it an upgrade of Ruin III. (Not related to the summons but current Ruin IV is stupid... this needs a change).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I am actually really enjoying it and I am sure plenty of people are going to either insult my intelligence because of it, or tell me all the reasons I shouldn't. A lot of people talk about just "providing feedback" but then go one to insult everyone that likes the job and how much smarter they are because they really got the old iteration of the job. Feedback looks like this "Summoner has a lot of free space on it's hot bars and could use some more abilities to give it some variety in it's rotation". Feedback is not "New summoner rotation is so dumbed down." What I like about Summoner now is that the rotation is very tight, everything works together and if you are keeping your GCD rolling you can easily fit in all your summons, their charges for gemshine and astral flow, your ruin IV proc, and even a few seconds of wiggle room for when I end up clipping a radiant aegis or something. There is certainly room for more though, and while I do enjoy it I understand the feeling that a job at lvl 90 should have a little more going on than this. That really is the crux of the issues with Summoner, if this was back at level 50 or 60 then no problem, there would be a lot of growth ahead but as it is most other jobs are developed more than Summoner is at this point.

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I, personally, am glad that you are able to enjoy it. Changes to any class can be a good thing that draws a wider audience, makes the class better or tightens it ups. However, with changes will also come those that do not like them. It's clear to want your opinions to be respected but so should you be willing to respect those that disagree and not lump them in a category of negativity just because they do. What I will also say is that feedback is feedback; whether you find it -constructive- or not is based on your personal take. I, for one, do find it incredibly simplified or "dumbed down". to make an even further point on the clear simplification of the job, I'll bring up Gemshine and Precious Brilliance. They serve no purpose. Old Smn had a reason for every button to be there and they were all pressed at one point and tied into the entirety of one's rotation and the class's gameplay. With new Smn, there is no good reason for either ability to exist given their funtion, single target damage spell, AoE damage spell, that locks out the use Ruin 3 and Tri-disaster. We can see, from how they have done Bahamut and Phoenix, that R3 and Tri can be replaced by form attacks. Therefore, Garuda, Titan, and Ifrit could be made to function the same way through Riot and Catastrophe. It would literally change nothing about how the class would play while removing two MORE abilities off the hotbar.

Please tell me when as old SMN you were pressing Bio or Miasma.

If you did the proper rotation, you hardcasted both once per 2 minutes during your downtime after FBT. Which also helped the ruin 3 filler not be as many ruin 3s and gave a weave window. And also every time you were in downscaled content, and had buttons to press besides Ruin and outburst. We even had this neat ability called Bane

Oh I completely forgot about the old SMN experience in below 70 content, especially pre-50. I do not think a single job in game started off so boring and got needlessly so complex by the time you hit 80.

Was more enjoyable than hitting the one aoe button the entire time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mathias-merodach

I, personally, am glad that you are able to enjoy it. Changes to any class can be a good thing that draws a wider audience, makes the class better or tightens it ups. However, with changes will also come those that do not like them. It's clear to want your opinions to be respected but so should you be willing to respect those that disagree and not lump them in a category of negativity just because they do. What I will also say is that feedback is feedback; whether you find it -constructive- or not is based on your personal take. I, for one, do find it incredibly simplified or "dumbed down". to make an even further point on the clear simplification of the job, I'll bring up Gemshine and Precious Brilliance. They serve no purpose. Old Smn had a reason for every button to be there and they were all pressed at one point and tied into the entirety of one's rotation and the class's gameplay. With new Smn, there is no good reason for either ability to exist given their funtion, single target damage spell, AoE damage spell, that locks out the use Ruin 3 and Tri-disaster. We can see, from how they have done Bahamut and Phoenix, that R3 and Tri can be replaced by form attacks. Therefore, Garuda, Titan, and Ifrit could be made to function the same way through Riot and Catastrophe. It would literally change nothing about how the class would play while removing two MORE abilities off the hotbar.

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Except for fester and painflare, if you were using one then you did not use the other. If I remember correctly you also didn't use Ifrit for AoE or Garuda for ST, so there are entire summons that you didn't use depending on the situation. Summoner also had, by no exaggeration, a 2 minute opener. That is just complexity for the sake of complexity. The previous iteration of summoner felt more like two jobs fighting each other for control, a DoT mage with it's abilities and a pet class with its abilities, although most of those just operated as spell casting by proxy.

The opener was 15 GCDs, 2 minutes was the entire rotation. We're still technically on a 2 minute rotation now, you just don't do anything different unless you have enough Spell speed to need to delay Bahamut for Searing Light

People really need to learn the different between opener and rotation. It's quite telling that so many opinions about old SMN stem from misconceptions or ignorance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Except for fester and painflare, if you were using one then you did not use the other. If I remember correctly you also didn't use Ifrit for AoE or Garuda for ST, so there are entire summons that you didn't use depending on the situation. Summoner also had, by no exaggeration, a 2 minute opener. That is just complexity for the sake of complexity. The previous iteration of summoner felt more like two jobs fighting each other for control, a DoT mage with it's abilities and a pet class with its abilities, although most of those just operated as spell casting by proxy.

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I'm sorry but... I really do not understand the point you're trying to make with that comparison. Please forgive me if my response is incorrect but I'm going to try: you're bringing up summon usage and when one's were used, ST or AoE, depending on the situation as well as Fester/Painflare interactions. What I would then ask is how is that any different from any other class? I'll use DRG as an example. In an AoE situation, my basic rotation is 3 buttons over the 8 buttons I have for single target. So, to the best of my current understanding of your point, there are two entire combo lines made up of 5 buttons I don't press when I'm in an AoE situation and 3 I do not press when I'm in a ST situation. You use what is most applicable to the situation at hand for the maximum benefit. So, say for example, you have a mob of enemies. You had the single target of Aetherflow or the AoE of Energy Drain. You then used Painflare for the AoE. However, if most of the mobs were wiped, you could then use Fester (which did more damaged with your dots, which was only 2). You were not locked into using one or the other. Another example, lets say there was a particular enemy that needed to be burned down. You used Energy Drain and Fester. It died and you still had a charge and a bunch of enemies alive. Well, now you can use Painflare. You had options and interplay with your abilities. And, you only had -TWO- dots. That is the same number as Paladin. There was just one ability, Tri-disaster, that assisted by applying them both and once and one specifically, Bane, that spread them. I fully acknowledge that's how it felt to you, as well, but for me it made complete sense. You are an Arcanist that, along with Y'mitra, a Conjurer, are reconstructing a lost art with bits and pieces that you are slowly putting together with the only starting position you have being that which you already know: Arcanist magic. Then you go off to try and do a thing without a full understanding of the potential outcomes. That's why both WoL and Y'mitra don't first understand why you fail to attune to Ramuh. Neither of you have a clue that you can cap out your aetheric reserves. It is looking for a way to find a work around that limitation that leads to Trance being discovered.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mathias-merodach

I'm sorry but... I really do not understand the point you're trying to make with that comparison. Please forgive me if my response is incorrect but I'm going to try: you're bringing up summon usage and when one's were used, ST or AoE, depending on the situation as well as Fester/Painflare interactions. What I would then ask is how is that any different from any other class? I'll use DRG as an example. In an AoE situation, my basic rotation is 3 buttons over the 8 buttons I have for single target. So, to the best of my current understanding of your point, there are two entire combo lines made up of 5 buttons I don't press when I'm in an AoE situation and 3 I do not press when I'm in a ST situation. You use what is most applicable to the situation at hand for the maximum benefit. So, say for example, you have a mob of enemies. You had the single target of Aetherflow or the AoE of Energy Drain. You then used Painflare for the AoE. However, if most of the mobs were wiped, you could then use Fester (which did more damaged with your dots, which was only 2). You were not locked into using one or the other. Another example, lets say there was a particular enemy that needed to be burned down. You used Energy Drain and Fester. It died and you still had a charge and a bunch of enemies alive. Well, now you can use Painflare. You had options and interplay with your abilities. And, you only had -TWO- dots. That is the same number as Paladin. There was just one ability, Tri-disaster, that assisted by applying them both and once and one specifically, Bane, that spread them. I fully acknowledge that's how it felt to you, as well, but for me it made complete sense. You are an Arcanist that, along with Y'mitra, a Conjurer, are reconstructing a lost art with bits and pieces that you are slowly putting together with the only starting position you have being that which you already know: Arcanist magic. Then you go off to try and do a thing without a full understanding of the potential outcomes. That's why both WoL and Y'mitra don't first understand why you fail to attune to Ramuh. Neither of you have a clue that you can cap out your aetheric reserves. It is looking for a way to find a work around that limitation that leads to Trance being discovered.

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excuse from SE , so they dont give smn ramuh :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

excuse from SE , so they dont give smn ramuh :(

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I think it was definitely something that limited them and where they wrote themselves into a corner. Or, it's as you said so they don't have to give ramuh or any egi other egi glams for that matter. It could be written out of. Given what has been developed already, the WoL and Y'mitra could experiment with purging an attunement to free up aether for a new one. But that's more of a lore topic than class play discussion, I think xD.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riusvell

You had me for a moment until the later parts and a bit in the beginning.

The summons feel even less meaningful in this inception of Summoner.
Right now it honestly feels like we've become a rather generic mage flinging around spells that happen to look like the primals, taking away any identity that we've had.

The rework was rushed and ill thought of, and just appeased the people that claim that carelessly flinging around a spell with a primal's effect = Summoner.

It's fine if you like it, but do understand where some of us are coming from and also that it wasn't just about the DoTs. The DoTs I liked because it was something relatively new to Summoner, no longer being coupled to either Black Mage/White mage. But now we're basically something that attempts being a mage while spectacularly failing at doing so. It has no identity right now.

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I think in terms of Design and identity it does feel to me like being a summoner, because you do Summon simalcrums of the primals.

In terms of old summoner, i understand why people liked the dots, but that identity shrank over time, and eventually was divorced from the rest of the class. Every attempt that was made to make the dots synergize with the rest fo the kit ultimatly failed and was reworked. There is nothing wrong with a dot class, but being Heavy on dots + heavy on pets / summons didnt really work.

The current summoner identity resolves around evoking the primals and using their essence to fight. Im not sure what you mean by less meaningful in the sense that the entire rotation is a rotation of summons. The only thing i can think you mean is that the arcanum summons appear do stuff then vanish again. While demis sit and pew pew. Having Garuda, ifrit and titan remain would be ideal, but i think the reason they didnt is due to the carbuncle spells.

But if its you want the pets to be more like oG egis, then id rather take this rendition and the demi stystem. Yes they are, merely animations, but id take that and the possibility of a wider reptoire of summons in the future over the old system where we sat on a choice of one or the other.

I dont think its bad or wrong for someone to dislike new summoner, but i think if people want the old summoner, that ship has sunk and failed. There is only one case of SQEX ever going back on a rework, and that was Caster bard - and in reality they only removed cast times.

I dont agree that the Summoner lacks identity, its about summoning Simalcrums of primals and infusing their aether into the summoners own spells - I will concede that the summons are mostly animations and people who wanted an actual "pet" would find it unrewarding. But then the alternative is the janky pet ui and a limitation on what summons we can get.