Blue mage is a waste of potential, change my mind.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

"Watered down" BLU would at least not have the same 130 potency elemental nuke copypasted five times in its spell list, or multiple crowd control skills that do the same thing, or be flooded with filler spells, or require to be carried in any content it tries to join. I'd happily take a watered down blue mage over a glorified gold saucer attraction that doesn't even give MGP.

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That actually sounds like BLU to me. Have you never played the classic Final Fantasy games? That's literally how it's always been lol.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

That actually sounds like BLU to me. Have you never played the classic Final Fantasy games? That's literally how it's always been lol.

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?

Thinking back on Quina and Strago.... no. This isn't how they've always been. They have spells that, on paper, appear to do the same thing, mostly attack all enemies with a spell, but those games had one key difference that XIV lacks. Elements matter.

That said, digging a little deeper into BLU here, I'm seeing that while it would appear on the surface that you have a lot of duplicate abilities (and you do) it's also about being smart regarding which abilities you use as you have a physical and a magical damage version of each. Drill Cannon is basically the physical damage version of Water Cannon. The Look is basically the physical damage version of Flamethrower, etc.

This COULD have been a really interesting thing to do with a job, and would have made the BLU think about what preformed parties they're playing with. Playing with a Summoner? Better bring magical abilities. Playing with a Monk or Red Mage? Bring the physical ones. The problem, to me, is that even if you attempt to optimize these abilities, the damage output of this job is still pretty pitiful, and would have to be a sponge of everyone else's buffs just to do below average damage.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

?

Thinking back on Quina and Strago.... no. This isn't how they've always been. They have spells that, on paper, appear to do the same thing, mostly attack all enemies with a spell, but those games had one key difference that XIV lacks. Elements matter.

That said, digging a little deeper into BLU here, I'm seeing that while it would appear on the surface that you have a lot of duplicate abilities (and you do) it's also about being smart regarding which abilities you use as you have a physical and a magical damage version of each. Drill Cannon is basically the physical damage version of Water Cannon. The Look is basically the physical damage version of Flamethrower, etc.

This COULD have been a really interesting thing to do with a job, and would have made the BLU think about what preformed parties they're playing with. Playing with a Summoner? Better bring magical abilities. Playing with a Monk or Red Mage? Bring the physical ones. The problem, to me, is that even if you attempt to optimize these abilities, the damage output of this job is still pretty pitiful, and would have to be a sponge of everyone else's buffs just to do below average damage.

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Blue Mage has had a lot of "pointless" moves is what I'm getting at. Like, they fulfill either really niche uses and you stick to the movies that are potent for certain content. Personally I'm pretty satisfied with what Blue has been offering so far despite 50 cap. There's a lot of unique moves here.

In terms of parties, you'd really have to wait until 70-80 for that to even matter. It's level 50 to give everyone time to learn everything, there is still 50-60-70-80 to go.

That's a lot of moves that we still don't have yet so I'd reserve final judgment until that occurs. Tbh no one likes playing the level 50 jobs that area already in the game anyway cause they are limited.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

That actually sounds like BLU to me. Have you never played the classic Final Fantasy games? That's literally how it's always been lol.

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BLU:

FFV: Caster Support God in end game, in prog of the game learns powerful spells early (Aero) and generally learns a good range of damaging magic (As well as some niche skills)
FFVI: Learned some weird spells, and some other powerful skills,
FFVII: Enemy skill was great, powerful magic which wasn't necessarily better than regular magic, but wasn't worse either, it also didn't alter your stats like other materia
FFVIII: Not played it so can't judge its usefulness
FFIX: Quina was great, most of the stuff was percentage based but still
FFX: Kimari was Trash Moving on
FFXI: Not played it but heard it was good and strong in that one

Could go on for other BLU's but you get my point, they of course did get some useless skills, but so do black and white mages.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

?Thinking back on Quina and Strago.... no. This isn't how they've always been. They have spells that, on paper, appear to do the same thing, mostly attack all enemies with a spell, but those games had one key difference that XIV lacks. Elements matter.

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It's not just elements here. It's also about the buffs and debuffs they can provide and inflict compared to any other jobs. Slow, blind, bind, stun, stop, drain, burn, paralyze, atk/def/str/dex down, fear. And the list goes on.
SE doesn't give the players much options for crowd control outside eureka, but the blue mage has it by the dozen. It was always a staple thing to tip the favors to your side with a blue mage because of its huge bag of tricks with the said buffs and debuffs.

I just don't see how they can balance that out without severely cutting down on the identity of the blue mage to make it a 'regular' job.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

That actually sounds like BLU to me. Have you never played the classic Final Fantasy games? That's literally how it's always been lol.

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In classic Final Fantasies most jobs are "pick spell from a menu" or "press the Fight button". If you want that kind of gameplay there's a lot of games for you to play, but that's horrible gameplay for a MMO where you control a single character.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Blue Mage has had a lot of "pointless" moves is what I'm getting at. Like, they fulfill either really niche uses and you stick to the movies that are potent for certain content. Personally I'm pretty satisfied with what Blue has been offering so far despite 50 cap. There's a lot of unique moves here.

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I'd argue that happens to other jobs too, just sometimes in less obvious ways. Say you have Super Smash Smash attack and Ooglop Slap, one clearly better than the other (or offers a nearly useless status infliction). What's so different than say Fire I II III IV VI, when in most of the games you have no need to ever go back down a level. Like in FFIX as soon as I got the stronger spell I'd just use it, no need to fire an enemy when I can Firaga or Meteor them.

Another example would be summons, often one summon would replace nearly half of all the other summons once learned (minus when you need to abuse elements lol).

Most jobs, imo, in most FF games (probably games in general) are full of pointless moves given progression; however, imo (lol), blue mage is unique in that the devs sometimes add goofy spells to blue mage just because (a shame that we don't see that more often on other jobs). Like Roulette which just randomly kills an ally or enemy lol.

ERr in other words:
Pointless skills, at least given progression: all jobs, in all games (almost always)
Nonsense goofy skills, blue mage usually

Imo other jobs in this game could use a few "off the regular bar" goof spells. Beyond that I see having a limit/unlimited, chained/unchained, limited content / main content (advanced) as the perfect solution to blue mage getting every thing that makes blue mage blue mage and more (goofy spell that can kill yourself? check! learning monster skills, check! can play with others, check! Although it's also probably one of the least cost effective routes lol, I still think it'd be pretty cool :) ).

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

BLU:

FFV: Caster Support God in end game, in prog of the game learns powerful spells early (Aero) and generally learns a good range of damaging magic (As well as some niche skills)
FFVI: Learned some weird spells, and some other powerful skills,
FFVII: Enemy skill was great, powerful magic which wasn't necessarily better than regular magic, but wasn't worse either, it also didn't alter your stats like other materia
FFVIII: Not played it so can't judge its usefulness
FFIX: Quina was great, most of the stuff was percentage based but still
FFX: Kimari was Trash Moving on
FFXI: Not played it but heard it was good and strong in that one

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In FFVIII she's good, but tbh you don't really suffer from making other characters good either.. Unlike FFX where I don't know what happened but he just felt bad lol (I think it has to do with not having a defined sphere path), I leveled every character by switching them out.. of every.. fight... but I almost never actually utilized used him.

FFXI blue mage was awesome, especially back when the game moved slower and blue mage first came out. Felt like you were flying lol. After 20 second casts from black mage.. blue mage was over there doing 2 second chaos burning their mp and hitting the hate list like it was a white mage benediction :D. Certainly the RNG to learning spells was an element of suffering but that whole game found a way to make everyone pay, so it wasn't like "oh no blue mage, so bad every other job is easy" - have fun getting all your summons, or buying all your spells lol.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m not a native speaker, but I’ve studied Japanese for several years now, so take this as you will...

コツコツとソロで楽しむ育成型
— This one is tricky:
“コツコツ” is onomatopoeia, and it can mean “steadily” (like the steady tapping of something), while “ソロで楽しむ” literally means “enjoy solo” or “participate solo”; 育成 means “rearing, training, cultivation, or promotion”; 型 means “mould, type, model”.
So I’m translating it as “Model that steadily participates solo”.
A bit awkward sounding. While researching, I also read a definition for コツコツ as “little by little”... may ask my professor about it when I see her today.

パーティコンテンツには向かない
— “Not suitable for party content” — direct translation.
“パーティコンテンツ” is “party content”.
“向かない” means “not suitable”; the verb 向く can mean “to be suited for”.

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So, may not be that important now, but I said I would ask my Japanese professor about the first bullet point. She said it could be translated as "Something one enjoys solo, little by little" - meaning you can slowly (and steadily) space out the content BLU has to offer.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

BLU:

FFV: Caster Support God in end game, in prog of the game learns powerful spells early (Aero) and generally learns a good range of damaging magic (As well as some niche skills)
FFVI: Learned some weird spells, and some other powerful skills,
FFVII: Enemy skill was great, powerful magic which wasn't necessarily better than regular magic, but wasn't worse either, it also didn't alter your stats like other materia
FFVIII: Not played it so can't judge its usefulness
FFIX: Quina was great, most of the stuff was percentage based but still
FFX: Kimari was Trash Moving on
FFXI: Not played it but heard it was good and strong in that one

Could go on for other BLU's but you get my point, they of course did get some useless skills, but so do black and white mages.

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Keep in mind when you refer to "end-game", we don't have end-game Blue right now. We're at 50, that's 51-60-70-80 worth of moves still remaining. Maybe SE should've just waited and released it all at once.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

In classic Final Fantasies most jobs are "pick spell from a menu" or "press the Fight button". If you want that kind of gameplay there's a lot of games for you to play, but that's horrible gameplay for a MMO where you control a single character.

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Worked fine in FFXI. It'll work fine in this game too when we have level 80 cap imo.

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Originally Posted by Zephera

I personally prefer to judge a game based on the content it currently has, not on the content that's been promised.

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Daily post limit yipee!

That's fine, the point I'm making is that we can't judge it for its endgame qualities until then.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

So, may not be that important now, but I said I would ask my Japanese professor about the first bullet point. She said it could be translated as "Something one enjoys solo, little by little" - meaning you can slowly (and steadily) space out the content BLU has to offer.

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Appreciate you went through with that, Hyomin. Even though it was kind of a long stretch to see what SE actually said compared to the translated piece.
Thank you anyway!

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Keep in mind when you refer to "end-game", we don't have end-game Blue right now. We're at 50, that's 51-60-70-80 worth of moves still remaining. Maybe SE should've just waited and released it all at once.

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I personally prefer to judge a game based on the content it currently has, not on the content that's been promised. If it's going to be a better down the line than what we have right now then I'd much rather have waited for it.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

It's not just elements here. It's also about the buffs and debuffs they can provide and inflict compared to any other jobs. Slow, blind, bind, stun, stop, drain, burn, paralyze, atk/def/str/dex down, fear. And the list goes on.
SE doesn't give the players much options for crowd control outside eureka, but the blue mage has it by the dozen. It was always a staple thing to tip the favors to your side with a blue mage because of its huge bag of tricks with the said buffs and debuffs.

I just don't see how they can balance that out without severely cutting down on the identity of the blue mage to make it a 'regular' job.

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The same way its already balanced, CC doesn't work on anything other than trash. Also I'm hijacking this comment a sec to have a small rant. Everyone always talks about the "Essence" or "Identity" of BLU, however as a FF Job goes, BLU has always been one of the most flexible jobs that changes a lot, don't believe me, here we go:
FFV: Mage that learned, like RDM could use swords, got shields too, so became a middle armoured support mage
FFVI: Weak old man, very much a standard caster archetype with some weird conditions for some spells
FFVII: could literally work on any character as Enemy skill doesn't alter stats
FFVIII: Blue Magic was a limit break learned by using items
FFIX: Blue Magic was nearly all percentage based skills, and was learned by eating things
FFX: You had to use lancet to learn skills, and they were just bad (I don't like Kimari)
FFX-2: Gun mage????? Not played this one, but again pretty different
FFXI: Battle Mage, used Swords could perform multiple roles
FFTactics: Support mage that could learn some powerful damage skills
Bravely Default: Vampire, Learned monster skills alongside vampiric abilities, good debuffer and physical attacker
Bravely Second: Catmancer... That is all

Point being, Blue Mage has been radically different across all of its instalments, with the only cohesive identity being: It attacks with monster abilities. So I really don't get where everyones coming from with this preserving the jobs identity chat, because its identity is super malleable as it is.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Appreciate you went through with that, Hyomin. Even though it was kind of a long stretch to see what SE actually said compared to the translated piece.
Thank you anyway!

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Not a problem! Nothing wrong with wanting to know what was said in the original language, because things do get lost in translation.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Not a problem! Nothing wrong with wanting to know what was said in the original language, because things do get lost in translation.

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You did a great job so don't take it as a swipe but reading your effort gave me some serious "I miss Reinheart" feels lol. Again I greatly appreciate you helping out, just had that thought as I was reading it. Hope the guy is having a good time right now :3

Can I nominate you? haha (workload x100 XD.....). In your opinion does the Japanese and English match up very well? From google translate (LOL) it looks like some people on the Japanese forum would like to see blue mage stronger and more solo-powerful, I wonder if they respond to this specific line in a similar fashion as people do to here.

Anyway, thanks :)

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Originally Posted by Shougun

You did a great job so don't take it as a swipe but reading your effort gave me some serious "I miss Reinheart" feels lol. Again I greatly appreciate you helping out, just had that thought as I was reading it. Hope the guy is having a good time right now :3

Can I nominate you? haha (workload x100 XD.....). In your opinion does the Japanese and English match up very well? From google translate (LOL) it looks like some people on the Japanese forum would like to see blue mage stronger and more solo-powerful, I wonder if they respond to this specific line in a similar fashion as people do to here.

Anyway, thanks :)

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I haven’t looked into anything the JP forum has said about BLU. Via hearsay from others, I haven’t heard anything positive about the job itself, but I’d have to actually go to the source to see what they’re specifically saying on it and what their suggestions to improve it would be.
Perhaps I can find some time to do that, though with school it may be difficult. I am just a student studying Japanese; not a native, to be fair. So certain nuances might be lost on me when I delve into the JP forums. X3

Makes me wonder if they had 120 abilities, why did we get a few that are essentially carbon-copies of others?


On everything else, its the same old ffxiv forums as always.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Blue Mage has had a lot of "pointless" moves is what I'm getting at. Like, they fulfill either really niche uses and you stick to the movies that are potent for certain content. Personally I'm pretty satisfied with what Blue has been offering so far despite 50 cap. There's a lot of unique moves here.

In terms of parties, you'd really have to wait until 70-80 for that to even matter. It's level 50 to give everyone time to learn everything, there is still 50-60-70-80 to go.

That's a lot of moves that we still don't have yet so I'd reserve final judgment until that occurs. Tbh no one likes playing the level 50 jobs that area already in the game anyway cause they are limited.

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From last interview, blue mage will probably be lv70 at the end of 5.x, which is two years from now. Please reserve final judgement till that then.

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Originally Posted by Whanext

From last interview, blue mage will probably be lv70 at the end of 5.x, which is two years from now. Please reserve final judgement till that then.

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What I don't get is why would they release it now, if its level cap increase is coming so much later. Like in that interview they said it probably wouldnt be until like 5.1 or later when they up the cap to 60. Why have such a sparse release schedule on content that takes a few days casually to complete?

So as we know from the start blue be 10-20 lvls under the real game.
I fail to see how se think this work and for what.

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Originally Posted by SamsaraLotusx

I fail to see how se think this work and for what.

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It'll keep people from asking them to add BLU because BLU is already in the game in name if not essence. Works as intended.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

It'll keep people from asking them to add BLU because BLU is already in the game in name if not essence. Works as intended.

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Not really, if anything we've got even more threads asking for BLU than we did before.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Not really, if anything we've got even more threads asking for BLU than we did before.

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It really feels like if the goal of the developers was to get people to shut up about Blue Mage it has backfired spectacularly since "why can't I run my endgame dailies on this class" is now going to be more or less a perpetual thing as long as Blue Mage is in the game as a limited job.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

It really feels like if the goal of the developers was to get people to shut up about Blue Mage it has backfired spectacularly since "why can't I run my endgame dailies on this class" is now going to be more or less a perpetual thing as long as Blue Mage is in the game as a limited job.

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It's k. Now Blue Mages AND Dark Knights can incite the masses to rise up and raise hell against the devs for making poor decisions or the lack of them.

One is clunk city and the other isn't even allowed to properly function in a MMO. Known for party based content. It's absolutely ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I haven’t looked into anything the JP forum has said about BLU. Via hearsay from others, I haven’t heard anything positive about the job itself, but I’d have to actually go to the source to see what they’re specifically saying on it and what their suggestions to improve it would be.
Perhaps I can find some time to do that, though with school it may be difficult. I am just a student studying Japanese; not a native, to be fair. So certain nuances might be lost on me when I delve into the JP forums. X3

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Working off only a couple years of Japanese myself, too, but to take some of the highest Like-count quotes from a search for リミテッドジョブ or 青魔道士...

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Originally Posted by bionix

Lv50のリミテッドジョブ＝Lv60の通常ジョブくらいの強さでもバチは当たらなかったように思います。
少なくともLv50の青魔道士8人で蒼天時代の制限解除PTくらいの立ち回りは出来ないと
コンテンツとして全く面白みのないまま立ち行かなくなることは間違いないと思われます。

挑発魔法（もしくはロールアクションフリーで挑発自体をセット可能に）とマイティガードでタンク役を担当したりして
Lv50の青魔道士8人で極蛮神を討伐できる（今でも上手い人を集めた上で工夫すれば可能でしょうが、もっと普通にやれる形に）のが理想です。

青8人で挑めばほぼ100%ラーニング可能にするようにした上でPTにラーニングした人がいた場合に
青魔法トークンのようなものも付くようにすれば後続の支援もしやすくなるのではないかと思います。
現状は旧FF14レベルの一度作り直しが必要な状況というのが率直な感想です。

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（３７ Likes)

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Even if a level 50 Limited Job had about the strength of a level 60 traditional job, I don't think 『バチ』will have quite hit the mark. (Bachi -> Patch (pachi)? Bee (hachi)? I usually only see this term in CS, for batch filing, and doubt that's what it refers to here.)

If a level 50 party of 8 BLUs haven't at least the prospects in a given encounter that an undermanned party would have had in Heavensward, it will all be utterly without interest as content and I have no doubt it will be unable to sustain itself.

Using skills like Provoke (via enmity spells or by simply allowing us access to Provoke itself via Role Actions) and Mighty Guard and really letting us take up the tank role or the like, I'd ideally like for a group of 8 BLUs to be able to tackle Extreme primals. (It is technically possible already if your members are individually skilled and your party coordination crafty enough, but I would like for this to be much more regularly possible.)

If we get to the point where we can run as a group of 8 BLUs, I imagine we can make it far easier [e.g. less disrupted by job swapping and rotating who gets to benefit from others' sacrificed time on 70s?] for players to successively learn their spells.

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Originally Posted by Dolch

カンストさせて一通り遊んでみたので
・不正とPLなしで上げたけど、敵が密集した狩場を確保できればレベル上げは容易だった。取り合いまたは閑散とした場所で移動狩りだけだとやや苦痛
・言うほど火力は低くない、最終装備でガードオファから青魔法連打してるだけで50として十分な火力は出る
・かといってリミテッドジョブらしい強さはない、50キャスとして並レベル
・死んでたらラーニング不可なら青PTで蘇生がないのが有り得ない、引率前提？
・ラーニングはその引率前提のIDが主体なのが苦痛、引率側もされる側も楽しくない最悪のゲーム体験
・マスクカーニバルは悪くないが冗長な部分が多い
・『報酬はマウント速度上げてない勢は嬉しいが逆に言えば終わってたら無意味では？』
・リミテッドにしないと青が入ってきたPTでレベル◯〜で倒されてポカーンとなるでしょ？って発言からのレジスト祭りはなんというかもう…(｀・ω・´)

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(40 Likes)

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Since I played through BLU in the course of getting (it) level-capped...

(カンスト, contraction of "counter stop") can refer to the level cap, reaching level cap on a class (カンストする）[most frequent], to having all classes at level cap, or to all classes of a given discipline to level cap, so it's a bit ambiguous for now.)

• Though I was able to level without powerleveling (*being powerleveled), leveling seemed easy so long as you could secure a mob-dense area of your own. Having to move due to player competition was a bit frustrating, though.
• Our firepower isn't as low as some have said. With final [BiS, or at least level 50] gear and after casting Off Guard, our damage per hit seems fine for a level 50.
• That being said, we don't have the firepower one would expect from a "limited job", but merely that of an average Lvl. 50 caster.
• It makes no sense that BLUs both cannot learn skills if dead [when the learning would otherwise be received?] AND all-BLU parties have no access to resurrection spells. Change this to a reduced chance to learn instead of zero chance?
• Masked Carnival isn't bad per se but they are too many redundant rooms.
• 『I'm glad we're not rewarded/compensated for with any increased mount movement speed, but on the other hand it feels like there's no real meaning to completion? 』[Not sure what was meant by "mount speed" here. Perhaps that was a suggestion others made?]
• We get a lot of resistance along the lines "If BLU weren't limited everyone would be left gaping as a the party *is crushed* [or, crushes the content?] the moment a BLU joins" but I really don't know what to make of that...
  [It's hard for me to make out the grammatical subject here -- if refering to us in general as the omitted pronoun (note PT is followed by で、and is therefore just an adverbial element) or the content/encounter itself -- to verify who/what is being defeated.]

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I'll edit it more as I get more time; there's another 8 or so big ones. Heads up: the rest don't seem as positive as the second.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shougun

You did a great job so don't take it as a swipe but reading your effort gave me some serious "I miss Reinheart" feels lol. Again I greatly appreciate you helping out, just had that thought as I was reading it. Hope the guy is having a good time right now :3

Can I nominate you? haha (workload x100 XD.....). In your opinion does the Japanese and English match up very well? From google translate (LOL) it looks like some people on the Japanese forum would like to see blue mage stronger and more solo-powerful, I wonder if they respond to this specific line in a similar fashion as people do to here.

Anyway, thanks :)

---

I did not look at the JP forum myself but someone on twitter posted how they are just as salty as us about this, asking what they should do now with it, asking why this was not a normal job. So seemingly they are also not really that happy with it there.

As blue mage currently stands I also feel it severely lacks power and use. If the job had actually powerful, fun abilities then I feel like limiting it to 50 content wouldn't be a problem. Using available skills to figure out a way to solo trials or dungeons can be fun if the tools given to us are useful. But blue mage cannot solo much better than a normal lvl50 job (don't know if this is strictly true but the point stands) other than carnival of course.

I think there's still some hope when they unveil lvl60 spells but if SE doesn't show actually op spells (emphasis on the plural) by the next expansion (that don't require a party to obtain in the first place) I really don't understand the point of blue mage and all of it's restrictions. I'm just wondering what is the point of a solo job that can only kill overworld mobs. At least enable creative skill combos that amount to something.

BLU is still garbage in 2020. Thank you SE

I really wanted Blue to be my main job. I know it would compromise some parts to make it a real job but I am positive it would have made more fans than it is now.

Honestly, the only big problem with BLU is that its content needs people, and it's because of how much time you need to grind to have it set up. (Which imo, is fine. But the playerbase hates grind so...)

BLU with all the spells is actually a very fun job, and is pretty much the most fun synced down job in the game (cause you're not losing skills).

On paper, it pretty much gave the game a bunch of things that the game needed:

An incentive for doing old content synced, and even min-ilvl no echo.
Literally something to do and grind for, which the game needs a lot more of.
Completely different playstyle for all 3 roles, Tank, Healers and DPS.

It really just needs more people trying out and doing BLU content, especially during content droughts like this one.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

Honestly, the only big problem with BLU is that its content needs people, and it's because of how much time you need to grind to have it set up. (Which imo, is fine. But the playerbase hates grind so...)

BLU with all the spells is actually a very fun job, and is pretty much the most fun synced down job in the game (cause you're not losing skills).

On paper, it pretty much gave the game a bunch of things that the game needed:

An incentive for doing old content synced, and even min-ilvl no echo.
Literally something to do and grind for, which the game needs a lot more of.
Completely different playstyle for all 3 roles, Tank, Healers and DPS.

It really just needs more people trying out and doing BLU content, especially during content droughts like this one.

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Really disagree on only big problem.. But I also like nearly nothing they did with the job so hey, perspective lol.

Also the three things you listed that the game needed could have been done in other ways without 'killing' blue mage (imo).

Greatly dislike what was done, and how it was done even under their own vision. Coming from someone who was actively asking and hoping for blue mage previously (for context).

The job, as you said yourself, get's fun after you grind in PF- which I believe is a huge flaw and a glaring example of what is wrong for multiple reasons. Some of them here:

• It means once people get theirs you have reduced to less and less likely chances of actually getting the good part of blue mage as less groups will be running for things that they've no value for. If you don't take part in the rush, then your drought build time to enjoy blue mage is drawn greatly, and some spells that would have increased your enjoyment just wont be achievable. Unless of course you have dedicated group, but I think it's terrible fate to put an entire job around "works not so bad in the patch rush and if you have friends on demand". If they had really wanted this they could have done so much better with a different content, like magitek battalions- add magitek combat suits into the game and get people building their own mech. Which would have cost no job and brought something entirely new- something that could have done all three things you thought the game needed without actually hitting a job's prospects. It was entirely uncessary to claim blue mage's crown for this... 'content'.
• It devalues collecting other spells when pretty much all except for specific spells are just terrible, or are at least different colors, perhaps even different colors of terrible.
• That other spells are so devalues the whole 'we made blue mage this way so we could give it the real spells' but wait we totally didn't because we wanted to balance it around PF exclusive content, and we designed the whole job in a way that you have the least interesting possible mechanics if you don't do PF only content which of course will only be most feasible at launch of each content. All the generic color + damage spells blue mage has that are pretty much useless outside of needing a specific element in the carnival, Fire Angon staring me in the face as a perfect example where they were either wrong about their statement and made an accident or were dishonest- the spell doesn't do what the spell does for the monster (and we can tell it was for the sake of balance in their 'only vaguely as good as other jobs mechanically after PF exclusivity'). And again for more context this is someone who enjoyed leveling ALL the other jobs (they're all at 80 now)- blue mage has been the worst leveling experience and it takes the least amount of time because once you get past the novelty of spamming on spell (which a job shouldn't have been built around, that's a sad fate) then you're stuck with a not very well designed job UNTIL you farm out every piece in PF. Your potential of a job that is actually drawing near conventional job fun relies strictly on getting people together, no other job has that issue and blue mage didn't need to have that issue and be limited either. They could have actually made it.. I dunno.. a solo job.. In which case you could have built to your fun more reasonably.
• It means that you will play the poor uninteresting BLU until you get to the built version, unlike all the other jobs which are interesting much sooner. Which means they drew out the time, indefinitely for quite a lot of players, where the job is just dull and only because the novelty of casting monster spells is it not entirely dead (spamming 1k needle, neat for a while, but entirely boring mechanically). Level 50 job vs level 50 blue mage that doesn't have the PF only spells, the level 50 job has a way more engaging kit. Once you get the PF only skills your kit while a bit silly in potential doesn't even significantly play more interestingly than an actual job. (obviously synced down job vs blue mage sync, blue mage goes faster). Mind you if you let a level 80 job sync down to 50 content with it's whole kit that it too would go a lot faster (as you pointed out blue mage has a full spell list unlike some other jobs that sync down). Which is to say when it's good it's basically nearing other jobs and when it's bad.. it's just really bad and the only thing that makes it not feel dismal is that you get to use monster spells (hinging entirely on the novelty).
• That the job doesn't use all the monster spells 1:1:, that the job is at it's most interesting (your words and the words of others who liked the blue mage after PF content) when it has the most shape and form and is most like an actual 'real job', just to me makes the entire reason blue mage the way it is now as experience with a metal bristle brush and salt.

To example building your kit and it being fun as you progress, and something I've referenced quite a few times already, is something like Diablo 3's spell and legendary affix system (post launch, way post launch lol). Here you get a job that has mechanical enjoyment, and then you get affix that take your job and does hand stands with it- there are many ways to play each feeling quite different (different affix builds) and it's amazing to collect them. Not every affix in that game is that special, but there are quite a few builds that even if not the most OP are still just ridiculous fun and an entire game changer on your normal mechanics. Rather than that, rather than a job with form that can continue to build out in crazy ways our Blue Mage is without form until you get lucky / spam content at rush, our's is incredibly simple and mechanically disinteresting until then, and once you finally get there that's the build you need. "Oh but you can switch roles now!11!" - ah yes you mean when your decision tree and build becomes even more narrow.. The role switch while vaguely novel doesn't add mechanical value to the job if anything it takes away from it.

At every turn for a reason they gave it feels wrong or was only partially followed, and quite a few times just seems like misdirection, mistake, or dishonesty (why is the job balanced with spells being stripped down occasionally, fire angon, when the reason given for this state is 'real spells'- why are you saying balance is why they can't be in PF and yet still balancing them?), and at the point nearly every single person for and against blue mage agrees the job is at it's best is just when it's most like an actual job. . . . . So what you mean to tell me is the most enjoyable blue mage would have been a complete job..? Color me shocked.

"but blue mage has to collect 10000 spells, so even though it plays best when it's most like a real job it just can't- it can't" What? You mean the like 10-15 spells that blue mages usually had before? In the games where blue mage had a billion spells (pretty much just FFXI) there were other jobs with a billion things to do too. So besides that being not true it doesn't even require blue mage to be limited. They could have done other things, like giving blue mage rotating spells in their kit like a drawing card mechanic (not all of them just some, playing with that carnival magican theme), they could have had blue mage be both limited and normal (like a pvp kit vs a in the wild just be silly kit), etc.. So much could have been done, and for 1000 spells where 95% of them are either the exact same + color or just purely worse choices than the 20-30 you're supposed to have? Not worth (imo).

Clearly, I do not like what they did, with a passion, and think it was a mistake at every major point. To add the above is hardly a comprehensive against statement.. Just some general concepts. Because I've other jobs I enjoy it's not like I feel the need to quit or anything, a dream was entirely mauled by something I think looks like a mess but I still love playing things like Paladin.

I think this would be one of my more aggressive posts I've ever made.. so perhaps I should apologize to SE as I mean no hurt to whoever designed it, as a person and I'm sure it's likely they've made something I've loved. Yet I certainly dislike this idea to it's core - the lack of communication on the job, the presence of miscommunication (either accidental or intentional), the decisions themselves being very disappointing (vaguely outlined above), to a job I had really wanted to play, to a content type I've pretty much universally enjoyed (jobs, I've played every single one to 80), now excluded exclusively to either being a very poor shadow or content rush/wait for others PF content, and the potential gained vs lost seems like a big "but why, take all my salt" lol.

Like I said believe they could have done everything you had wanted (what you felt FFXIV needed), with a much better logical and mechanical progression, doing something else- like magitek combat.

I believe they could have done much better, but they didn't, and imo they didn't even do average to expectation, it was below expectation, and so I find it all disappointing. And not just like "I think I could make it better, me in my back seat position with no money to lose", I mean it as in I think THEY could have done it better- that I expect greater things from them, that even if they had wanted to make a PF exclusive content that they could have done a better job than what it is. Of course I have my own ideas of what, but I don't have to worry about budgets or finely tuning things over many years, I've nothing to lose except time typing so everything is way easier on this side of the fence (though because of that I do try to spend a lot of time suggesting potential solutions, as well as complementing things I find clever/fascinating/good, as I dislike things being just pure criticism- which is also why I tend to add my perspective and feelings as well, so they can see where someone is coming from and not just "no").

I couldn't care less about changing the OPs mind, so not here for that lol.

Blue Mage is fun and refreshing.

I think some people can't get over the fact that their "favorite" job came out limited. But I'm really looking forward toward more limited jobs and the mini-game-esque solo content.

Blue Mage and the Perform aspect of Bard are really rounding out to be really fun solo content!

SE if you see this, I'd love to actually get beastmaster! Let me get a bestiary where I can capture every monster in the game, kinda like FFX style. I really have fun with that kind of content and it speaks to the completionist in me.

NO RNG on capture though lol. The RNG elements of these limited jobs is really unfortunate in some cases. RNG does not make more content fun or engaging. I'm already paying my sub every month, so you don't have to draw these things out for me!

So if you implement beast master, kill the RNG capture rates!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HadesNight

I couldn't care less about changing the OPs mind, so not here for that lol.

Blue Mage is fun and refreshing.

I think some people can't get over the fact that their "favorite" job came out limited. But I'm really looking forward toward more limited jobs and the mini-game-esque solo content.

Blue Mage and the Perform aspect of Bard are really rounding out to be really fun solo content!

SE if you see this, I'd love to actually get beastmaster! Let me get a bestiary where I can capture every monster in the game, kinda like FFX style. I really have fun with that kind of content and it speaks to the completionist in me.

NO RNG on capture though lol. The RNG elements of these limited jobs is really unfortunate in some cases. RNG does not make more content fun or engaging. I'm already paying my sub every month, so you don't have to draw these things out for me!

So if you implement beast master, kill the RNG capture rates!

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I see this a lot, "Fun and Refreshing", what does this mean, can you explain it to me? Cos to me it seems that the content it does have is a "challenge" mode in the carnival that plays more like a tick the right box puzzle, and the pf content is just dungeons challenge runs which have existed since arr (all tank all heal runs of dungeons ect) but more sterilised with whoaoaoa so whacky instant deaths (when they actually work). Over half its skill lists are repeats of the same kind of move (potency + status or just status effects) and the only time I've considered BLU really FUN to play is when Ive gotten all the skills to make its optimum dps rotation, cos its a fun rotation, but at that point im only having fun because it plays like a normal job now. So can you explain to me what you mean by fun and refreshing, cos clearly im too much of a bah humbug to understand.

Also @ Shougun, nice to see someone else who will write paragraphs about this job lol who also has the knowledge of it across the franchise to back it up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I see this a lot, "Fun and Refreshing", what does this mean, can you explain it to me? Cos to me it seems that the content it does have is a "challenge" mode in the carnival that plays more like a tick the right box puzzle, and the pf content is just dungeons challenge runs which have existed since arr (all tank all heal runs of dungeons ect) but more sterilised with whoaoaoa so whacky instant deaths (when they actually work). Over half its skill lists are repeats of the same kind of move (potency + status or just status effects) and the only time I've considered BLU really FUN to play is when Ive gotten all the skills to make its optimum dps rotation, cos its a fun rotation, but at that point im only having fun because it plays like a normal job now. So can you explain to me what you mean by fun and refreshing, cos clearly im too much of a bah humbug to understand.

Also @ Shougun, nice to see someone else who will write paragraphs about this job lol who also has the knowledge of it across the franchise to back it up.

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Yeah, what you've listed is an opinion and that's completely fine. What I'll present is an opinion and at the end of the day what you'll have to acknowledge is that no one in this thread is the IP owner of the job and therefore SE can make this job whatever they like and do whatever they like with future jobs, no matter what other games they've shown up in.

Most other jobs in this game come with performance weight, you really should read your tool tips and learn how to play your job. Especially if you're going into public content. Know your rotation, maintain your dps uptime and do the mechanics.

Blue Mage is refreshing because it's a reprieve from that. I could spend months mastering the role and trying out new skills as I got them. I could do content by myself, win and lose by myself and completely see how I can get better.

There is a level of control that I have with this class that I don't with others and to me it was a really fun, and rewarding experience. I really look forward to getting more content like this. Content that is low pressure.

Limited jobs are refreshing and relaxing in a way that taking a fully functioning job into public content is not. It's the same with how refreshing the trust system is. I know the trade off is that trusts are slower, but it's low pressure. Perfect as a reprieve from everyday life.

Editing to add, that on the second reread that seemed like I was throwing shade. I started with the opinion context to explain why I feel completely satisfied in my opinion because I don't pretend to be the authority on how this is supposed to be designed. I'm a consumer paying for content and I'm getting my money's worth and total enjoyment from the fact that it's a different dynamic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HadesNight

Yeah, what you've listed is an opinion and that's completely fine. What I'll present is an opinion and at the end of the day what you'll have to acknowledge is that no one in this thread is the IP owner of the job and therefore SE can make this job whatever they like and do whatever they like with future jobs, no matter what other games they've shown up in.

Most other jobs in this game come with performance weight, you really should read your tool tips and learn how to play your job. Especially if you're going into public content. Know your rotation, maintain your dps uptime and do the mechanics.

Blue Mage is refreshing because it's a reprieve from that. I could spend months mastering the role and trying out new skills as I got them. I could do content by myself, win and lose by myself and completely see how I can get better.

There is a level of control that I have with this class that I don't with others and to me it was a really fun, and rewarding experience. I really look forward to getting more content like this. Content that is low pressure.

Limited jobs are refreshing and relaxing in a way that taking a fully functioning job into public content is not. It's the same with how refreshing the trust system is. I know the trade off is that trusts are slower, but it's low pressure. Perfect as a reprieve from everyday life.

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That seems like a mostly fair motive for what you use the job for, however I would disagree with the spend months mastering the role/ it being a reprieve from the way skills work in the main game. The majority of BLU's skills function identically to each other, and the ones that dont require tooltip reading and learning how to play blu if you ever intend to do anything with it other than carnival/overworld farming, which for all I know, thats all you do, but most of blu's content is in the PF as of this patch which if anything is more intensive on those "reading your skills" aspects than base jobs.

Also could go without the sassy condesention in the opening line, you've stated the obvious, and this is a feedback forum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I see this a lot, "Fun and Refreshing", what does this mean, can you explain it to me?

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. . I'm glad you asked this. When I saw it I was like "I . . I can't . . no. . can't even." But since it's asked now I wanted to agree lol.

If they wanted solo content they could have done SO MUCH better.. How is the solo portion of blue mage fun and refreshing..? For the most part it's picking different colors of the same bad spell, unless you have the PF / spam till your eyes bleed versions, or it's spam that one OP spell like missile.

Am I hearing spamming one spell is the fun and refreshing content that blue died for? I can't even. What is even trying out a new spell, the solo-able ones at least, if they're mostly just different colors. Only a few solo skills actually have unique value, and you can equip all those at once. .

It seems like satisfaction with it simply because is different and not because it is excellent, it's mediocre but different so "i like it".

If they wanted solo content it could have been done better, if they had wanted PF exclusive content it could have been done better, if they wanted a real job.. it could have done better. Blue mage could have been done better..

Yes @HadeNight I'm annoyed because it's my favorite job stuck into a content style I'd never want, but beyond that I just think they phoned the job in. I'm not annoyed simply because my favorite job just jumped into the metamorphical tar pit, I'm annoyed because I don't even think they did what they sought out to do very well. The job seems like it could have just been 'better', no matter what you had wanted from it- it should have been better.

"yeah but it costs a lot to make a full job, this way we get extra content" okay I totally hear that these things probably cost an arm and a leg and then ten more, that actually is the most logical sense to this blue mage issue... but like I said it could have been something else, it in no way needed to be Blue Mage. Blue Mage didn't HAVE to be this way, and if it did, which it doesn't, it could have been better- I believe SE's ability is above this, that they are capable of more.

Though I still believe they could have had a significantly more interesting, PF friendly, easier to logically progress, group content, based around magitek. Which would have had literally no one wondering why it's not DF.

"We made pilot-able combat magitek mechs that you can construct from the ground up, they can function in the open world- even as mounts, solo, but they're also designed to take on older content in new exciting ways with their entirely unique abilities and controls via playermade squadrons, come create your own magitek, your own fleet now!".

Progression of such a system would work a lot smoother for the players between solo and squadron content as well, as you could add parts and system upgrades at different intervals almost like gear that would allow players to smoothly progress without ever having a boring mech. Unlike blue which is if you didn't get the good stuff in PF then you just have a 1 to 3 button mage, which is significantly worse than a normal job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

That seems like a mostly fair motive for what you use the job for, however I would disagree with the spend months mastering the role/ it being a reprieve from the way skills work in the main game. The majority of BLU's skills function identically to each other, and the ones that dont require tooltip reading and learning how to play blu if you ever intend to do anything with it other than carnival/overworld farming, which for all I know, thats all you do, but most of blu's content is in the PF as of this patch which if anything is more intensive on those "reading your skills" aspects than base jobs.

Also could go without the sassy condesention in the opening line, you've stated the obvious, and this is a feedback forum.

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I stated the obvious, and yet a lot of the feedback forums are presented in a way in which people think they have any right to tell SE how a job should be by showing how it was in the past in other games.
It almost seems like an argumentation fallacy to lead any critical discussion by saying "yeah you know how this is a completely different game? Well yeah, it should be like this". But again, that's an opinion piece and I had already edited my other post to address how it sounded on a read back.

As for the rest, to each their own. I contributed to this thread because if SE does read these I wanted them to see there is a population of players getting enjoyment from BLUs current implementation in THIS game and look forward to the other crazy things they couldn't balance well as full jobs but could give us as limited ones.

SE, Time mage. Can we get some Alexander-esque time mage action going?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shougun

. . I

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I totally feel that, my best friend is absolutely gutted that BLU is implemented this way. There is definitely the potential that is SE had more time and resources they could have done more. With more time and resources anything is possible, like our spagetti code getting fixed or the graphics getting updated or us getting more races and more jobs per expac.

I think this dev team really cares about the community, so I tend to go the "benefit of the doubt" route more than the "you should have done more for me" route. One isn't better than the other. I'm not admonishing you here. I just view this job, it's implementation differently. I can definitely see how you feel that way though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HadesNight

I stated the obvious, and yet a lot of the feedback forums are presented in a way in which people think they have any right to tell SE how a job should be by showing how it was in the past in other games.
It almost seems like an argumentation fallacy to lead any critical discussion by saying "yeah you know how this is a completely different game? Well yeah, it should be like this". But again, that's an opinion piece and I had already edited my other post to address how it sounded on a read back.

As for the rest, to each their own. I contributed to this thread because if SE does read these I wanted them to see there is a population of players getting enjoyment from BLUs current implementation in THIS game and look forward to the other crazy things they couldn't balance well as full jobs but could give us as limited ones.

SE, Time mage. Can we get some Alexander-esque time mage action going?

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The reason why people bring up how BLU specifically was in other games is because when yoshi P first unvieled the job, one of the major reasons he gave was "to be true to how blue mages were across the franchise/ stay true to the spirit of blue mage", which has then been paroted a lot by the community since. The reason we end up bringing up how it was in other games is because how it was in other games is at odds with how it is implemented in ffxiv, meaning there is a direct contradiction between one of the major arguments for limited blu and the reality of how it was elsewhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HadesNight

I totally feel that, my best friend is absolutely gutted that BLU is implemented this way. There is definitely the potential that is SE had more time and resources they could have done more. With more time and resources anything is possible, like our spagetti code getting fixed or the graphics getting updated or us getting more races and more jobs per expac.

I think this dev team really cares about the community, so I tend to go the "benefit of the doubt" route more than the "you should have done more for me" route. One isn't better than the other. I'm not admonishing you here. I just view this job, it's implementation differently. I can definitely see how you feel that way though.

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HEY DONT BE SO SWEET BACK! :p

Alright fine lol. To be fair I am emotionally invested to the job, so here I'm like 'do better' but I can easily see a situation where I don't care as much as I'd be more on your perspective.

For example I know a few people thought red mage wasn't a very great representation of red mage and honestly it felt fun to me. Although I would argue in comparison they did spend more resources on getting red mage in, so it's not a 1:1 comparison to this blue mage example but is an example where different people are willing to let more or less go.

Since I fee like they could have made a more interesting blue mage, a job I was clearly invested in, as you pointed out, and still also met your needs, or PF exclusive player needs better.. I guess that gets my salt factory going.

Just rings in my head as a list of wrongs, and since it is tied to something I don't really want to 'let go', all the perceived wrongs ring louder too. "This should have been done better"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

The reason why people bring up how BLU specifically was in other games is because when yoshi P first unvieled the job, one of the major reasons he gave was "to be true to how blue mages were across the franchise/ stay true to the spirit of blue mage", which has then been paroted a lot by the community since. The reason we end up bringing up how it was in other games is because how it was in other games is at odds with how it is implemented in ffxiv, meaning there is a direct contradiction between one of the major arguments for limited blu and the reality of how it was elsewhere.

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The spirit of being a blue mage is the ability to use monster abilities. That's it. Thats the baseline.

Anything else is the fanciful opinions of fans. Which isn't bad of course, being a fan is why we're all here. But not having the ability to separate personal desires from the fact that SE can implement their IP how they like borders on entitlement. Blue Mage exists as it should, I can get monster abilities from monsters and use them.

If you asked anyone what they thought of Blue Mage before it was added to the game, they would call out the FF people and land on using monster abilities. That's like the calling card of the class. The spirit of the job.

So it's just opinion. All of this is opinion, which I'm definitely a proponent of, as long as people acknowledge it as such. You can absolutely think that SE could have implemented it better, but there will be people that are happy with the ability to use monster attacks in this game.

It's all just an I agree to disagree. Once again, I just wanted SE to see the voice of someone that's fine with how it is and is getting enjoyment from it with my sub.