Been running Ridorana Lighthouse the whole week and...

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06-05-2018, 11:44 AM
Nihility

the most interesting thing i noticed about the new system is 100% of the drops are being taken by someone in every run I've been in so far
While the old system half or more of the drops were hitting the ground even on the "2AM patch day first run ever!" run

what a difference a change to perception makes...

Still don't understand this whole concept of it being unfair. It's not like the one drop a week doesn't count if it's not for your main class and they can keep taking 'your' stuff
and really doubt people are taking it just to be spiteful, what would be the point of taking your one piece a week if you can't use it or sell it or do anything at all with it?
06-05-2018, 12:28 PM
Fawkes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihility

what would be the point of taking your one piece a week if you can't use it or sell it or do anything at all with it?

One of the sets is Vaan's from Tactics A2, and the rest are based on other tactics classes, so you'd take it if you want to collect it for glamour even if you can't equip it yet. It's not like leveling the job first will help you get it now anyway, so if you think you might want it someday might as well lot now before the lockout is gone and it's a total free for all.
06-05-2018, 01:06 PM
Enla

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihility

Still don't understand this whole concept of it being unfair. It's not like the one drop a week doesn't count if it's not for your main class and they can keep taking 'your' stuff
and really doubt people are taking it just to be spiteful, what would be the point of taking your one piece a week if you can't use it or sell it or do anything at all with it?

We had at least one person already defending their preference for Greed only /because/ they don't feel certain people should have drops because they 'don't deserve them' for whatever reason. That's pretty much the textbook definition of spite.
06-05-2018, 02:19 PM
BillyKaplan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihility

the most interesting thing i noticed about the new system is 100% of the drops are being taken by someone in every run I've been in so far

Nah, lots of them hit the floor still. And if they don't it's because people are so disheartened about getting something they want, they roll on whatever, which is not how this should work at all.

Quote:

Still don't understand this whole concept of it being unfair.

It's a dead horse beaten by now. You can say you disagree but if you say you don't understand then you haven't read the thread.

Quote:

and really doubt people are taking it just to be spiteful, what would be the point of taking your one piece a week if you can't use it or sell it or do anything at all with it?

Lots of people don't actually need the gear from there because tomestones gear or savage. In that case, if someone pissed them off, they have a roll ready to go that they don't really need. And some people might just roll even if they do need a certain piece, but are just that upset. Don't underestimate spite.
06-05-2018, 02:19 PM
TaleraRistain

I really think the whole argument of being "forced" to play a certain class under the old system is just silly. It's not like the Greed option went away if you came on your main under the old system. I was able to gear my bard side up just fine while running the 24 mans as my white mage. Did I sometimes lose out on ranged gear to the actual ranged in the party? Of course, as it should be. I didn't come on that class. They had the opportunity to Need and took it. It may not have been a perfect system, but it was a lot better than this Greed free for all.
06-05-2018, 02:33 PM
Vhailor

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I really think the whole argument of being "forced" to play a certain class under the old system is just silly. It's not like the Greed option went away if you came on your main under the old system. I was able to gear my bard side up just fine while running the 24 mans as my white mage. Did I sometimes lose out on ranged gear to the actual ranged in the party? Of course, as it should be. I didn't come on that class. They had the opportunity to Need and took it. It may not have been a perfect system, but it was a lot better than this Greed free for all.

I also liked the flexibility this afforded me when lotting on gear that dropped. Before, I could Need on the very few items I wanted, could generally Greed on everything else (knowing that I wasn't taking an item from someone who could Need on it), and could Pass in the rare event someone specifically requested an item they couldn't Need on.

Now, I feel obligated to Pass everything that I don't actively want, because I don't want to be that asshole who snags an item someone else could really use. It's costing me GC seals, and it's taking away one of those 'side rewards' that 24-person Raids used to give.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihility

Still don't understand this whole concept of it being unfair. It's not like the one drop a week doesn't count if it's not for your main class and they can keep taking 'your' stuff
and really doubt people are taking it just to be spiteful, what would be the point of taking your one piece a week if you can't use it or sell it or do anything at all with it?

In addition to what other people have pointed out, keep in mind that the weekly limit only applies to Ridorana. For every other dungeon, people can Greed at will on anything that drops - and they often do. So if you're hunting a Glamour piece or working on gearing up a job at a lower iLevel, you get absolutely hosed by this change.

I actually think I could probably have lived with the change if it only applied to the most recent 24-man Raid. I wouldn't have loved it, but it would have had a relatively minor impact on me. Applying it to dungeons without lockouts, however, is unequivocally awful.
06-05-2018, 03:12 PM
SeriousxSarcasm

Ok, one of the worst things I saw happen. It was business as usual, we beat first boss and a NIN item and healer hat drops. I side eyed the healer hat, and ask if healers mind if I roll for it, because it's the worst damn thing in the world when someone in a different role snatches something you want (the amount of times I lose caster gear to healers...... *shakes fist*). First healer says she don't care, she's going for the chest piece, this is like her 5th run today. Other healer doesn't mind either since it's not a huge upgrade, but she still rolls (I won it, made me glad I asked). Run was pretty chill after that, a few people piped up about what they were running for, so we were feeling pretty good there wasnt a big conflict for gear.

The healer chest piece drops later, healers are both super happy about it, they've both been really awesome about keeping our party up while the rest of the raid is falling apart around us, rest of the party is cheering them on. and Boom, Red Mage gets it just as we're running up to the last boss. Like really? You could feel all those good vibes we built up during the run hit rock bottom. I was so upset on their behalf.
06-05-2018, 03:40 PM
Rockette

Here is a thread with people who collect sets on Reddit. There's a few comments in there from collectors who are super upset at the Greed changes since now its really not worth even trying to get the 24man pieces.

I sincerely hope SE does something to fix this.
06-05-2018, 03:56 PM
Awha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enla

We had at least one person already defending their preference for Greed only /because/ they don't feel certain people should have drops because they 'don't deserve them' for whatever reason. That's pretty much the textbook definition of spite.

To be fair I have yet to see many defend greed all in the sense that they would like to stay, or that they agree with the system, sure some have voiced their personal preference, even then most have admired that the system is still flawed. People have defended it in the sense that greed all and need/greed/pass systems both favor certain individuals. If they never made the change more like the conversation never would have been brought it since it was one of those status quo elements to game that most just went along with, but being as the change went through a revert to the old system instead of a rework seems like they would be taking a step backwards, when they have chance to move forward because inherently both systems are not fair and impartial. Is it possible to come up with a system that is fair and impartial I do not know, but would still be an interesting conversation to see if the community can help SE come up with a solution that is better then greed all or need/greed/pass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Have you considered there might be a reason why it's the status quo more or less since MMOs' inception?

Overall you are right I have had no problem with the status quo, but being as SE made the change simply going back instead of possibly looking into ways to improve the system and find a solution that happens to please both side that have their preference does not seem like a bad thing to me. I mean don't you think it is little odd to dislike one system because it favors certain players, but blindly go back to the previous one that still favored certain players? I mean if it trues out a rework is not possible or simply would take up too much time I have said then go back to the old system since between the two Need/greed/pass fits the status quo. I mean yes it is the way things have been, but SE clearly is open to change so maybe it is time we see if a rework is possible. Even when they mentioned change I did say outside of my personal preference greed all is still a terrible solution when it comes to methods of loot distribution.
06-05-2018, 04:00 PM
BillyKaplan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awha

status quo

Have you considered there might be a reason why it's the status quo more or less since MMOs' inception?
06-05-2018, 04:57 PM
Penthea

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awha

I mean don't you think it is little odd to dislike one system because it favors certain players, but blindly go back to the previous one that still favored certain players?

Have you not thought that WHY a system favours certain players also matters?

The greed only system favours people who have had more time or more inclination to level up more roles, because the more roles you have at 70 the higher the chance of potentially useful loot dropping. Yes everyone can roll on anything but only players who can equip everything get the best use of the system.

Need favours those who are playing the role the loot matches. Your odds at winning useful loot are identical to anyone else who is currently playing the same role as you.

For all your enthusiasm for debating this it seems you haven't really thought about it deeply enough. You seem to put both systems in the same basket simply because they both favour certain circumstances even if they don't favour the same ones.
06-05-2018, 05:31 PM
Awha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penthea

Have you not thought that WHY a system favours certain players also matters?

The greed only system favours people who have had more time or more inclination to level up more roles, because the more roles you have at 70 the higher the chance of potentially useful loot dropping. Yes everyone can roll on anything but only players who can equip everything get the best use of the system.

Need favours those who are playing the role the loot matches. Your odds at winning useful loot are identical to anyone else who is currently playing the same role as you.

For all your enthusiasm for debating this it seems you haven't really thought about it deeply enough. You seem to put both systems in the same basket simply because they both favour certain circumstances even if they don't favour the same ones.

The point I have been trying to make is both systems are flawed, and outside of my own personal preference I never understood the logic behind SE moving from one flawed system to another. The same basket I am putting them in is how they are both inherently flawed. I mean of course they do not favor the same circumstances, they are different systems so they would have different benefits. I am not defending greed all as the perfect system, am I trying to show that why should we as a community accept either system without at the very least having SE attempt to find a solution that at the very least offers improves for every type of players that runs the content instead favoring a certain play style. I do not disagree with the notion that greed all is a busted system, but all I have been trying to covey is that Need/greed/pass still alienates certain players just as Greed all does. Sure greed all alienates more, and if a loot rework is not possible then SE best call would be to go back to the status quo. I just do not understand why things must come down to they should stay same since others did not think it was broken.

My main issue is I do not think a system should inherently favor one over another if it is possible to find a solution that does not, sure it can raise them up to match their needs, but that should never put them above another person overall. Which is the issue of the old system, and the new system, if you are not part of the system it favors overall you run greater risk of losing out. If that concept is selfish or entitled fair enough I will accept that I am being selfish or entitled. I do not know if such a system is possible, but I do hope SE tinkers with the idea before going with the gut reaction of going back to the old system which carried it's own flaws. I am not trying to have a debate per-se since I do agree the greed all system was a messed up solution to a problem that only effected a handful of people, but since they made a change maybe it is time SE looks into reworking their loot system. That has more or less been my point this entire time. The part I guess I you could say is a debate is the concept behind why as a group should care why a system favors certain players, though so more so has to do with the fact that I never liked the mindset behind certain players gaining a larger benefit simply for fitting requirement. I mean I am not even a fan of tank and healers getting bonuses for simply queuing for content, and I main a tank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

The amount of backpedaling is giving me whiplash.

The only people who'd be alienated by the old system are people who want to roll things they can't be bothered to bring to the raid. And even then the Greed system existed so it's not like they were without options. There's a reason why people keep saying 'if it's not broken, don't fix it'.
The biggest flaw with the old system was RNG to have the item you wanted show up at all, but it's not like the new system addressed it.

It's called "democracy". And a bit of "common sense". You're basically complaining things should change despite absolutely no one agreeing with you.
You'd have a much better case if you were campaigning for a token system without defending this new system which you suddenly aren't in favor of.

I have said from the start that greed all is a busted system, sure I do like it more personally then need/greed/pass but it is a busted system just as I feel need/greed/pass is. I have also said I do not like the RNG aspect, and that is why I lean more towards a token system that allows players to choose what they want as a reward. I prefer greed all because it does give everyone the same chance to win something at the end of the raid, and I have said this many times. I have also said that I do not see how either system is more selfish then the other, each are just selfish for different reasons. Yes I do not agree that because someone can wear the item inherently means they have less right to roll need on a piece of gear then someone because they have are currently that role. Pretty much from the start, maybe it was due to my poor explanation I have stated that I am not much of a fan of either system, I just happen to have my own preference like everyone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleo

@Awha:

I have explained why I find the old system fair (everyone has their chance to roll need if their gear drops and other jobs like healers and tanks have much more pressure thus should get their gear instead of losing it to a DD that barely helped.) I am not going to answer more because it seems that both sides have their opinion on it and no matter what people posted it feels like you just repeat your points again.

I understand why others feel the old system is fair, and I have agreed with depending what side your fall on you will find the old system more favorable (thus more fair) just as I think the current system offers more favorable option for players in my position (thus in my eyes more fair) what I am trying get across why is the community up in arms about a change in a loot system that simply changed who it favored instead of rallying together for a rework instead of going with the status quo? Does that make sense? I have never denied another view as to why they feel a system is fair, while I do not agree with notion that one one is inherently more selfish then other. I mean at a whole I can disagree with why someone feels something is fair, I have always viewed fairness as a opinion based thing, so am really trying to convey that maybe we can find a system that is impartial, yet raises certain players needs to meet their needs while not placing them above another. If that makes sense, I just do not understand why that is wrong, not saying you feel it is wrong.
06-05-2018, 05:38 PM
BillyKaplan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awha

I do not disagree with the notion that greed all is a busted system

The amount of backpedaling is giving me whiplash.

Quote:

I have been trying to covey is that Need/greed/pass still alienates certain players just as Greed all does.

The only people who'd be alienated by the old system are people who want to roll things they can't be bothered to bring to the raid. And even then the Greed system existed so it's not like they were without options. There's a reason why people keep saying 'if it's not broken, don't fix it'.
The biggest flaw with the old system was RNG to have the item you wanted show up at all, but it's not like the new system addressed it.

Quote:

I just do not understand why things must come down to they should stay same since others did not think it was broken.

It's called "democracy". And a bit of "common sense". You're basically complaining things should change despite absolutely no one agreeing with you.
You'd have a much better case if you were campaigning for a token system without defending this new system which you suddenly aren't in favor of.
06-05-2018, 05:58 PM
Alleo

@Awha:

I have explained why I find the old system fair (everyone has their chance to roll need if their gear drops and other jobs like healers and tanks have much more pressure thus should get their gear instead of losing it to a DD that barely helped.) I am not going to answer more because it seems that both sides have their opinion on it and no matter what people posted it feels like you just repeat your points again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I really think the whole argument of being "forced" to play a certain class under the old system is just silly. It's not like the Greed option went away if you came on your main under the old system. I was able to gear my bard side up just fine while running the 24 mans as my white mage. Did I sometimes lose out on ranged gear to the actual ranged in the party? Of course, as it should be. I didn't come on that class. They had the opportunity to Need and took it. It may not have been a perfect system, but it was a lot better than this Greed free for all.

I agree which is why I dont understand the argument that you can now just go into it with the job you want...I mean I also got healer gear when I was a DD with the old rule and could be sure that getting it with greed means that the healer did not need it. Now everyone needs to greed, so nobody truly knows if the job kinda needs it and you roll on something that they could use and on top of that it has not increase your chance much because you still have 7 possible other people that might win it..
06-05-2018, 06:11 PM
Fhaerron

Make a party with friends.

Problem solved.
06-05-2018, 06:37 PM
WhyAmIHere

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awha

Really wish I could covey what I am saying better since as I mentioned before I do think a lot has been misunderstood due to my poor explanation.

Read as: I wish I was better at convincing people my way of thinking is right and their way of thinking is wrong because it's my thoughts that are right and not theirs.
06-05-2018, 06:44 PM
Awha

I spoke with some friends and they helped me understand the situation better. So more or less what everyone is saying that being as 24's primary intent is to act as a catch up mechanic, and system that does not favor those that need to gear fails to meet the intention of the content? It was never meant to be impartial just practical, and since the game cannot confirm if someone will use the item, they just give first dips to those that can use the item. With that being said a token system would also not work since that would not meet the needs of those that need the gear as a means of catch up, since the only way to meet those needs if to give them initial priority.

Is that more or less what everyone is saying? I still do not agree with it, but that makes a tad more sense to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Read as: I wish I was better at convincing people my way of thinking is right and their way of thinking is wrong because it's my thoughts that are right and not theirs.

I do not think I have ever said another persons view was wrong, I have said I do not agree or understand but I do not think I ever said someone was wrong or my view was better. If I did not come off as civil or if I implied someone was wrong I am sorry was not my intent. It is hard for me to personally understand why people should get preferential treatment, and never like when I was given preferential treatment due to certain factors I am given preferential treatment. Think of it as you will, but please do not say I ever thought someone was wrong, since I rarely ever feel someones opinion is wrong. I still stand by if I was better was conveying what I was trying to say it would not seemed like I support the change in the system outside my own personal bias. I had a hard time conveying I prefer one system over the other does not mean I am blind to the flaws of the system. Since some seem to feel that I think greed all is the better of the two system, which I do feel from personal aspect I prefer greed all, but overall I do not think it is the better option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

To be fair, I was reading into what you were typing out, so like any form of non-personal, non-verbal communication, miscommunication abounds. On that, mea culpa, I wasn't trying to intend you did feel that way, but after reading the whole exchange between the people in this thread: that was my takeaway from your posts.

This whole thing was just, and still is, a giant mess. That's really the biggest issue I feel. Both sides have merits, both sides have valid points and arguments to make, and both sides can be seen as "right." There is no "right" answer, however, other than this: "why take away a feature that wasn't needed to be taken away?" The elemental stuff outside of eureka? Sure, that no longer served a purpose in gameplay. Was that the slippery slope? Is that just overreacting? Who knows, but hindsight is 20/20.

Fair enough, just goes to show that how I was conveying my point gave the wrong idea to some which is understandable, my command on the langue is lacking, and due to certain things my basic understand into social interactions are not well developed. I have tired to say that I do not think either side is right or wrong, and depending on where you state you can fall into a certain category. Though when you are told that your perception is wrong one cannot help but feel maybe if I explained it better they would understand where I am coming from. Someone even mentioned I was backpedaling which was not my intent, but that is clearly what other saw.
06-05-2018, 06:52 PM
WhyAmIHere

To actually contribute to this talk: everything has been said. Both sides, for and against this change, have their merits. "It allows everyone the opportunity to get gear for any class while playing on a class they enjoy," -v- "If you want the gear you should run as the class."

Personal bias: I enjoy(ed) running 24 mans, for the content and the glam. Both are/were important for me. Since this change, I've been disinclined from running any of the raids as a part of why I wanted to even run them was "taken" from me. (Sure not really, but, having an option taken from you that you used to have is never a good feeling, ya know?)

This change solved nothing, was not needed, and punished players who had the time to play as more than one class. Simultaneously, this change addressed the divide between those who have time aplenty to play, and those who simply do not. Now everyone can have a level field in obtaining gear. This change has caused a rift in the community, which is just bad form for any company.
That SE still feels that it needs "more time and feedback to make a determination based on a relatively small amount of community feedback" is nonsense.

EDIT::

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awha

I do not think I have ever said another persons view was wrong, I have said I do not agree or understand but I do not think I ever said someone was wrong or my view was better. If I did not come off as civil or if I implied someone was wrong I am sorry was not my intent. It is hard for me to personally understand why people should get preferential treatment, and never like when I was given preferential treatment due to certain factors I am given preferential treatment. Think of it as you will, but please do not say I ever thought someone was wrong, since I rarely ever feel someones opinion is wrong.

To be fair, I was reading into what you were typing out, so like any form of non-personal, non-verbal communication, miscommunication abounds. On that, mea culpa, I wasn't trying to intend you did feel that way, but after reading the whole exchange between the people in this thread: that was my takeaway from your posts.

This whole thing was just, and still is, a giant mess. That's really the biggest issue I feel. Both sides have merits, both sides have valid points and arguments to make, and both sides can be seen as "right." There is no "right" answer, however, other than this: "why take away a feature that wasn't needed to be taken away?" The elemental stuff outside of eureka? Sure, that no longer served a purpose in gameplay. Was that the slippery slope? Is that just overreacting? Who knows, but hindsight is 20/20.
06-06-2018, 01:46 AM
RayneBoemir

I also agree that the greed only rule is supremely ill-conceived. Before I would run the place several times on my secondary jobs for an upgrade, but now I just run it on my main and roll on anything that drops that any of my 70s can use even if I don’t play them much. And that’s like one - two runs max I don’t see where SE is going with this all this does is make players run the instance less. I thought they wanted to keep us occupied.
06-06-2018, 01:52 AM
RayneBoemir

I also agree that the greed only rule is supremely ill-conceived. Before I would run the place several times on my secondary jobs for an upgrade, but now I just run it on my main and roll on anything that drops that any of my 70s can use even if I don’t play them much. And that’s like one - two runs max I don’t see where SE is going with this all this does is make players run the instance less. I thought they wanted to keep us occupied.
06-06-2018, 06:13 AM
Penthea

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awha

The point I have been trying to make is both systems are flawed

Sorry but I don't really believe this so much. I don't think anyone said the need system was perfect, they said that it worked well. Not the same thing. All the arguments presented to you in favour of need are because greed only is bloody terrible for many reasons. Not because need is perfect. You have been trying to convince us of a point we already know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awha

My main issue is I do not think a system should inherently favor one over another

Yet you suggest a token system even though people roll on those. Winning those is 100% luck based. I know several people, myself included, who have had to spam bosses in Omega for hours because of unlucky streaks with rolls. That system favours the lucky, and you got nothing like role restrictions to get better odds.

The only way to have a system that doesn't favour anyone is to literally have nothing to roll on - whatever the reward is, it goes straight into your inventory or currency tab. Maybe that is what you meant but I don't really envision SE giving a guaranteed third currency for completing the instance as it seems a bit excessive, but that's a whole other conversation.
06-06-2018, 06:13 AM
Seddrinth

I really like the greed option. I can go in playing the job I'm most comfortable playing and still get an equal chance to loot for gear for alt jobs. As for people who are upset because they have trouble gearing... there are so many options for gearing in this game. You can upgrade crafting gear and weapon to 360 just by using creation tombstone or you can just buy mendacity gear which is also 360, and can be upgraded to 370 with Lighthouse/Rabanastre. You can get a full set of 350 gear on Sigmascape normal with no weekly loot lockouts now. You can go to Eureka and get 355 weapon and 350 gear. The 24 man is not the only place you can get gear. I'm new to this game so if I know this, no excuse for you veterans to not know this.
06-06-2018, 06:20 AM
Penthea

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seddrinth

You can get a full set of 350 gear on Sigmascape normal with no weekly loot lockouts now. You can go to Eureka and get 355 weapon and 350 gear. The 24 man is not the only place you can get gear. I'm new to this game so if I know this, no excuse for you veterans to not know this.

Well then as a "veteran" I feel I need to inform you that not all the crafted, tomestone, Eureka or Omega gear is universally equally good for every class. Some classes suffer greatly if their gear doesn't have a lot of weight in certain stats. Never mind how incredibly expensive crafted gear can be so they're often just not an option for a new player. For a lot of people the 24 man loot is a legitimate upgrade, even if they raid. And just because something is higher ilvl doesn't always automatically mean it's better gear. Combat stats are more complex than that.
06-06-2018, 06:22 AM
BillyKaplan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penthea

Yet you suggest a token system even though people roll on those.

That's why I want an Extreme-esque token system. Or rather, totem system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seddrinth

I can go in playing the job I'm most comfortable playing and still get an equal chance to loot for gear for alt jobs.

If you don't feel comfortable running on them, why do you need such high level gear? And why can't you utilize the methods you mentioned yourself?

Quote:

You can upgrade crafting gear and weapon to 360 just by using creation tombstone

Not everyone have the crafters/gatherers or gil. People can complain about needing more gil sinks until the cows come home, not everyone is a gillionaire, especially the players who actually rely on content like this to gear up.

Quote:

or you can just buy mendacity gear which is also 360

It takes between a week to two to get a single piece of mendacity gear. While they get the one item from this, they can get another piece of gear from the raid, even if they'll replace it asap. Double weekly upgrade you're telling them to pass up on.

Quote:

Sigma... Eureka

Time restrictions. Eureka is a massive time-sink, and Sigma can be too if you get unlucky with the rolls. Especially seeing how you need duplicate tokens for most gear pieces. Oh and the raid is an upgrade compared to both, so there goes that.

Every system has issues that can easily keep someone from gearing through it. 24-player raids used to help people to get around it, but now with the Greed-Only that's out the window.
06-06-2018, 06:50 AM
Awha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penthea

Sorry but I don't really believe this so much. I don't think anyone said the need system was perfect, they said that it worked well. Not the same thing. All the arguments presented to you in favour of need are because greed only is bloody terrible for many reasons. Not because need is perfect. You have been trying to convince us of a point we already know.

Yet you suggest a token system even though people roll on those. Winning those is 100% luck based. I know several people, myself included, who have had to spam bosses in Omega for hours because of unlucky streaks with rolls. That system favours the lucky, and you got nothing like role restrictions to get better odds.

The only way to have a system that doesn't favour anyone is to literally have nothing to roll on - whatever the reward is, it goes straight into your inventory or currency tab. Maybe that is what you meant but I don't really envision SE giving a guaranteed third currency for completing the instance as it seems a bit excessive, but that's a whole other conversation.

Never said need was perfect, I have acknowledged that people prefer need since they feel it is the fairer system, and I said the same could be said for greed all. I was trying to say is that for me it seems silly to make the request to move back from one flawed system to another. This is why I brought up I wish I was able to convey what I was saying better since my intent was never to convince people that one system is inherently better, I was trying to show that the system that someone will prefer will depend on what they want from the content or how they wish to run it. Since I was confused about how can we choose which set of factors to favor. Though I as mentioned in my last post my friends exampled to me the intent of 24's and why they need to priority those that need the gear since the content primary intent was meant for players to catch up, which would also means tokens would not work since the only way to meet the needs of those that are going in for upgrades is to put them above everyone else at first. While I do not agree with the concept, but it makes sense. Just as when the mentioned the greed all thing, I personally liked it more so then need/greed/pass but I did acknowledge that overall it is not a great change. I would be all for removing RNG and give everyone who took part a token to that took part in the kill, though I do understand that would make the content / gear meaningless for many at that point. I have also acknowledged that I do not know if a token system would solve the issues, it was just an idea. End goal as I mentioned is that instead of asking for SE to switch from one flawed system back to another maybe it time they looked into reworking the loot system that happens to better meet the "needs" of each type of player that runs the content.
06-06-2018, 06:52 AM
BillyKaplan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awha

End goal as I mentioned is that instead of asking for SE to switch from one flawed system back to another maybe it time they looked into reworking the loot system that happens to better meet the "needs" of each type of player that runs the content.

The old system met the "needs" of players before. If you needed gear for a job you proved it by bringing it to the run. Simple as that.
Now, if - and that's a huge if - if they rework the system, it won't happen any time soon. What they're likely to do is revert to the Need system to pacify the angry mob, and then hope we forget about it.
06-06-2018, 07:01 AM
Alleo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fhaerron

Make a party with friends.

Problem solved.

That could have been done before if you wanted gear with the old system. And on top of that it did not mess up peoples chances on rolls.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seddrinth

I really like the greed option. I can go in playing the job I'm most comfortable playing and still get an equal chance to loot for gear for alt jobs. As for people who are upset because they have trouble gearing... there are so many options for gearing in this game. You can upgrade crafting gear and weapon to 360 just by using creation tombstone or you can just buy mendacity gear which is also 360, and can be upgraded to 370 with Lighthouse/Rabanastre. You can get a full set of 350 gear on Sigmascape normal with no weekly loot lockouts now. You can go to Eureka and get 355 weapon and 350 gear. The 24 man is not the only place you can get gear. I'm new to this game so if I know this, no excuse for you veterans to not know this.

Then why not gear up your job that you are seemingly not even comfortable in 24 man raids through other means? I mean if you dont want to run them there you will probably not feel comfortable in ex/savage runs either, so gearing them through dungeons should be enough right? And if you dont want to run them with that job too why need an upgrade at all?

You also had the chance to get gear for other jobs and still play the one you like before with need. You just needed to be lucky that the jobs that could need on it did not roll on it. At least that old system did not hurt those that needed to gear their main job while still giving the rest a chance to get other gear..
06-06-2018, 07:08 AM
Penthea

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleo

That could have been done before if you wanted gear with the old system. And on top of that it did not mess up peoples chances on rolls.

I really hate the "make a party with friends if you want to get loot" argument. Because yea, f**k you if you're a new player, are new to the server, a returning player, have friends that don't always play at the same time or have the misfortune of being unable to find a community you fit in with.

The fact that you need a premade group for Duty Finder content so that the chances on getting loot become realistic just shows how badly broken the greed only system is.
06-06-2018, 07:18 AM
Awha

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

The old system met the "needs" of players before. If you needed gear for a job you proved it by bringing it to the run. Simple as that.
Now, if - and that's a huge if - if they rework the system, it won't happen any time soon. What they're likely to do is revert to the Need system to pacify the angry mob, and then hope we forget about it.

I know, fairly early on in this thread I did say it is more likely they will be going back to the old system, and the only reason this topic even came about was simply because SE made the chance in the first place since overall while I have always had my issues with need/greed/pass I went along with it because it really was a first world problem, being as SE did make the change it is hard for me to understand why people feel the better solution is to go back to the system that they ended up switching from in the first place. I was always of the mindset that greed all was a lazy solution to a problem not many voiced since it was a first world issue, (never outright called it a first world issue in this thread, figured it was implied) but since a change was made I figured it would a good time to voice ones feelings on the matter. Though the old system really did not met the "needs" ( do not like using the word need, but you know what I mean right? Peoples wants and stuff ) of the every player before, but it really was not met to, while I do not agree with that concept, it is what it is. I do not recall which post I said this in, if a rework cannot happen then yeah the best solution is to go back to the told system, since greed all has a greater potential of screwing certain players over.

Either way my issue came from the fact that I viewed 24's as a means of gearing up (since I do not buy into the whole ones need is greater the another thing) which even now I do not understand that mindset, but that more so goes into how I think about things and lack of understanding in basic social situations. As it was explained to me by my friends it is not just about gearing, but more so gearing those that happen to be fair behind the current ilvl, and the only way to go about that is to give those players priority and as you mentioned before the only objective measure SE could go with is role, and give priority to those that can wear it. In that way it makes sense.
06-06-2018, 07:36 AM
Seddrinth

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

If you don't feel comfortable running on them, why do you need such high level gear? And why can't you utilize the methods you mentioned yourself?

Reading comprehension. I never said I'm not comfortable playing alt jobs. I've raided savage on alt jobs. But I do feel more comfortable with my main job. I don't need any level gear- it's just a game and I just gear up for fun. No crying if I don't get gear. And yes I have used a combination of crafted gear, sigmascape normal, and mendacity gear to gear my alt jobs. Any more questions?
06-06-2018, 07:39 AM
Seddrinth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleo

Then why not gear up your job that you are seemingly not even comfortable in 24 man raids through other means? I mean if you dont want to run them there you will probably not feel comfortable in ex/savage runs either, so gearing them through dungeons should be enough right? And if you dont want to run them with that job too why need an upgrade at all?

You also had the chance to get gear for other jobs and still play the one you like before with need. You just needed to be lucky that the jobs that could need on it did not roll on it. At least that old system did not hurt those that needed to gear their main job while still giving the rest a chance to get other gear..

I do raid on alt jobs including savage content and I have geared up alt jobs with the different methods I've mentioned- mendacity, crafted gear/weapons, sigma normal. To me this is just a game and I'm just gearing up for fun. I'm not going to cry if I lose a roll on a piece of gear.
06-06-2018, 07:43 AM
Penthea

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seddrinth

I'm not going to cry if I lose a roll on a piece of gear.

What gave you the impression that we shed tears when we don't get loot?
06-06-2018, 07:45 AM
Seddrinth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penthea

What gave you the impression that we shed tears when we don't get loot?

Right because this isn't en entire thread whining about not getting loot. He lost the roll fair and square. Get over it.
06-06-2018, 07:47 AM
Penthea

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seddrinth

Right because this isn't en entire thread whining about not getting loot. He lost the roll fair and square. Get over it.

So you're telling me that being annoyed about something means you cry? Your emotional spectrum is very limited if this is your experience.
06-06-2018, 07:49 AM
Awha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seddrinth

Right because this isn't en entire thread whining about not getting loot. He lost the roll fair and square. Get over it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penthea

So you're telling me that being annoyed about something means you cry? Your emotional spectrum is very limited if this is your experience.

Let us be civil here, we are having a friendly discussion people will be in disagreement but no reason to lash out like that. People took jabs at me so I know how it feels, but no need to act like that, we are all part of the same community.
06-06-2018, 07:55 AM
Penthea

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awha

Let us be civil here, we are having a friendly discussion people will be in disagreement but no reason to lash out like that. People took jabs at me so I know how it feels, but no need to act like that, we are all part of the same community.

Sorry I couldn't resist showing him how unconstructive his posts are by informing him that he's not the hard man among the crybabies, and that liking any specific loot system doesn't make anyone superior.
06-06-2018, 08:01 AM
Seddrinth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penthea

Sorry I couldn't resist showing him how unconstructive his posts are by informing him that he's not the hard man among the crybabies, and that liking any specific loot system doesn't make anyone superior.

Unconstructive? I mentioned 4 other alternative paths to gearing in the case that you lose a roll running Lighthouse- mendacity, sigma normal, crafted, eureka... and then all the crybabies started their personal attacks. Scroll up and read. This game has a lot of gearing options. And also, this is a game so don't get so carried away with gear.
06-06-2018, 08:04 AM
Penthea

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seddrinth

Unconstructive? I mentioned 4 other alternative paths to gearing in the case that you lose a roll running Lighthouse- mendacity, sigma normal, crafted, eureka... and then all the crybabies started their personal attacks. Scroll up and read. This game has a lot of gearing options. And also, this is a game so don't get so carried away with gear.

My apologies, the constructive parts of your posts were eclipsed by unnecessary jabs. I guess I missed them.
06-06-2018, 08:12 AM
Seddrinth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penthea

Well then as a "veteran" I feel I need to inform you that not all the crafted, tomestone, Eureka or Omega gear is universally equally good for every class. Some classes suffer greatly if their gear doesn't have a lot of weight in certain stats. Never mind how incredibly expensive crafted gear can be so they're often just not an option for a new player. For a lot of people the 24 man loot is a legitimate upgrade, even if they raid. And just because something is higher ilvl doesn't always automatically mean it's better gear. Combat stats are more complex than that.

I understand the different substats, however, the worst ilevel 360 gear (in terms of secondary stats) is good enough for you to clear savage content and get 370 gear. New and casual players were clearing savage (at lesat 5 and 6, dunno about 7) wearing 345-350 gear.
06-06-2018, 08:13 AM
Seddrinth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penthea

My apologies, the constructive parts of your posts were eclipsed by unnecessary jabs. I guess I missed them.

Apology accepted. Sometimes emotions cloud the ability to see clearly.

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