Survey: Community Opinions Regarding Parsing/Parsers in Final Fantasy XIV

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veridian

Never seen a need for parser, except in the most hardcore groups. Used for eliminating the weakest link. For the masses, if Diversion is in your rotation and kept on cool down, and still seeing orange now and then, you're fine. Or if MT dies and boss immediately smacks you, you're fine. I find it easy to tell how well I am doing that way.

---

If there's a 'main' tank, I would assume it's in 8 player content...

Thus shouldn't the off tank probably be behind the main tank before the other dps?
Rotating Provoke and Shirk should keep all the tanks above the dps.
It's free enmity!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

I'm playing with pugs, who have similar skill as I do, while that is certainly a more insular crowd, it's not a closed/fixed group as you're implying. That is because the game lets me filter players out that are clearly looking for a carry and as such tension for me is non-existent whereas FF14 expects me to becomplacent in carrying ignorant players.

I find that when you remove the agenda (i.e. players sneaking into DF trying to be carried or watching netflix, or in PF who really need more practice in Exdeath, but join a GCO to clear party, etc.) it generally removes the rift between the community. There will always be harassment claims and they absolutely should be handled, but please don't conflate harassment with parsers as they are not directly related.

---

You proved my point again, that is still a closed group, and not with anyone, parser harassment is common in wow, but you admited you keep away from that so point?

Quote:

---

The problem is that you do not have any actual data that suggests one way or the other. You are misinterpreting your emotional bias and limited anecdotal experience as analysis.

---

You have the same problem don't you? Esp when you admit being in a crowd of a select few, you do not know what the majority is, therefor I can say you are the one stating a conclusion with anecdotal experience and having emotional bias. Because guess what? Parser harassment happens IN FFXIV!!! when they have it against the ToS, it is pretty obvious it will only increase if you give out a public parser, and that is why SE does not want to do it. Are you really suggesting one person vs the devs who has chat logs, going to believe YOUR "anecdotal experience as analysis"

grats on the biggest pot meet kettle I ever saw.

Quote:

---

Yoshi P, as well as SE, is capable of being incorrect on a stance and are capable of changing their viewpoint, no matter how polarizing it may be.

---

Ya sure its not like he has no clue on what goes reported and have people relay important information time to time.

A person that thinks they know more then Gm team/ development team of the game in question, unbelievable. You are in some cave if you think parser harassment is very few cases.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veridian

Never seen a need for parser, except in the most hardcore groups. Used for eliminating the weakest link. For the masses, if Diversion is in your rotation and kept on cool down, and still seeing orange now and then, you're fine. Or if MT dies and boss immediately smacks you, you're fine. I find it easy to tell how well I am doing that way.

---

I very strongly recommend you check out ACT to realign your perceptions. Not only is your analysis of threat and DPS completely incorrect, there are other factors that are significantly reducing your "merit" to make this statement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

You proved my point again, that is still a closed group, and not with anyone, parser harassment is common in wow, but you admited you keep away from that so point?

---

I must be misunderstanding you somewhere. I don't "intentionally" keep away from parser harassment in WoW. I simply don't see it. I still PUG content frequently.

Quote:

---

You have the same problem don't you? Esp when you admit being in a crowd of a select few, you do not know what the majority is, therefor I can say you are the one stating a conclusion with anecdotal experience and having emotional bias. Because guess what? Parser harassment happens IN FFXIV!!! when they have it against the ToS, it is pretty obvious it will only increase if you give out a public parser, and that is why SE does not want to do it. Are you really suggesting one person vs the devs who has chat logs, going to believe YOUR "anecdotal experience as analysis"

---

Read my post, and read yours. Which one of us sounds "emotional"? Where did I say anything about being in a crowd of "select few"?

The other major difference in our posts is that I am stating my opinion and providing examples to support my statements. You are stating yours as if it was fact. Which is not the case.

Another tidbit you had wrong is I have never once stated parser harassment does not occur EVER. That is ridiculous stance to take. I've always tried to direct your attention from the constant combination of the words "parser" and "harassment". They are 2 separate things.

Quote:

---

Ya sure its not like he has no clue on what goes reported and have people relay important information time to time.

A person that thinks they know more then Gm team/ development team of the game in question, unbelievable. You are in some cave if you think parser harassment is very few cases.

---

Again, in what world did I ever say or imply I knew more than Yoshi personally? I've simply stated examples of why Yoshi's word isn't the hand of god.

Please, do me a favor. The next time you PERSONALLY see harassment stemming from a parser, copy and paste it, report it, and then post it here for all of us to see. This way I can keep track of it.

Kaidea, I think she means that even if you pug, you probably pug at the highest difficulty levels where they filter out harassment because the pool of raiders that can play at that level is small anyways. You can't really evaluate the parser culture because the bulk of it is going to hit people in the middle reaches of skill, in the same way Overwatch pros and normal players have different cultures and player rankings. Generally world firsters you have to ignore in these discussions; they aren't the ones who are indicative of the general culture of the game.

To chime in with the above:

I pugged over 60 A12S kills and an order of magnitude more attempts after 3.55 alone. The majority of these were with total PF pugs with a number of clears from helping other statics both in my FC as well as others.

These were groups of all skill levels so whilst it's not a large enough data set to truly be conclusive. It's substantial enough that it gives me confidence in my experience.

The only time I ever saw anything remotely close to parser harassment was 'we need more dps, where can we start?' There were a couple of occasions where someone would get replaced, but it was usually for failures such as stasis or sacrament. I never saw anyone flatly called out in all these clears and for good reason too.

Let me be clear, I'm not denying it happens, but it's nothing like as frequent as people often like to make out.

Kald is also absolutely correct regarding Yoshi. Developers are humans too, and shock horror, a lot of them don't actually play their game as much as their fanbase do. There are a myriad of examples where the community has figured out ways to 'break the game' and 'bend the rules' that the development team didn't foresee.

Sebazy, that's still a tiny amount of players that managed to self-select through raids, and who also will not risk being that because of punishment. The issue is what happens if people finally don't have to worry about being banned for talking about DPS, as well as what happens if parser culture filters out of raids and into casual culture.

If we go by the following two assumptions:

Talking DPS numbers would be allowed.

Harassing someone over their DPS (Or indeed anything else) would still be an offence in the same way that it is now.

I actually think very little would change. Yes you'd get people discussing DPS in 8 man PF raid content but really now, where's the harm in that as long as it stays civil? If it doesn't? Report it, it's one less cretin that we all have to deal with.

As far as more casual content goes? Again, don't like it? There's a vote kick for that. We have the tools to police ourselves to a fair degree, and contrary to what these threads suggest, it's not only the pro parse crowd that can use them.

Parsers are controversial because we are trying to match them with different categories of players: normal players, raiders, and high end raiders.

When you are a player, you don't need a parser! You can go trough all the content without it, without optimal rotations, and PUGging all the duties, even the first tier of raiding. Frankly, in this cases the parsers are nowhere near to be useful or needed. You can live without it.

When you are a raider, you enter the gray zone. You want improve yourself, you look around for things and stuff, you know your rotation is important. Parsers may help you but aren't that a necessity, because when you educate yourself enough for the role you are playing, it is very likely you got into the minimum reqs for make the kill in all raiding content but the very latest. Very likely, you will make the kill in the last raiding tier you missed, when things will be relaxed with echo buffs and alike.

When you are an high end raider, parsers take here the role. You aren't trying to found a rotation: you are perfecting it. You want push out every single bit of more dps from your rotation analizing how you use it, what you use, when, etc. You don't leave anything unaccounted. Even the job you're playing. With your own research for the ultimate flawless play of your job, you also look for the best party composition: if this raid is better done with two pld, two pld they are. You and your group are pushing for the best and ultimate party job matching for the kill. Make the kill is not a goal, it is only the starting point. You want make it faster and easier as possible, and this can only be achieved not only with the best personal skills, but also with the best party job composition. If you strive to be an high end raider, you have to master the job the raid require you have. "Maining" a single job is stuff for normal raiders, not you. And here, parsers will shine, giving you and your party all the ins and outs of a kill, and all the data you need to understand what when and where your party can improve. High end raiding is not for everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Kald is also absolutely correct regarding Yoshi. Developers are humans too, and shock horror, a lot of them don't actually play their game as much as their fanbase do. There are a myriad of examples where the community has figured out ways to 'break the game' and 'bend the rules' that the development team didn't foresee.

---

Just to emphasise this point, Yoshida dislikes how aggressive tanks and healers player—being outright baffled that whomever held the boss did so without their tank stance. Likewise, they never imagined we would use Huton pre-pull or prep Wraith/Abandon stacks and simply wait 25-60 seconds. Citing the devs for gameplay examples doesn't work. They simply don't have the time to micromanage the game to the same extent we do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veridian

Never seen a need for parser, except in the most hardcore groups. Used for eliminating the weakest link. For the masses, if Diversion is in your rotation and kept on cool down, and still seeing orange now and then, you're fine. Or if MT dies and boss immediately smacks you, you're fine. I find it easy to tell how well I am doing that way.

---

Ninja specializes in aggro management while Dragoon can cut its own by half every thirty seconds. Going off enmity, both would be perceived as weak jobs yet Dragoon currently sits among the best jobs in the entire game, both in its damage output and utility. Never use enmity as a basis for damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Ninja specializes in aggro management while Dragoon can cut its own by half every thirty seconds. Going off enmity, both would be perceived as weak jobs yet Dragoon currently sits among the best jobs in the entire game, both in its damage output and utility. Never use enmity as a basis for damage.

---

Definitely. Also someone who uses Diversion before their big burst damage will look lower than someone who doesn't, even though using Diversion is a way to be nice to your tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Just to emphasise this point, Yoshida dislikes how aggressive tanks and healers player—being outright baffled that whomever held the boss did so without their tank stance. Likewise, they never imagined we would use Huton pre-pull or prep Wraith/Abandon stacks and simply wait 25-60 seconds. Citing the devs for gameplay examples doesn't work. They simply don't have the time to micromanage the game to the same extent we do.

---

I figure if he really disliked it, he'd change it. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Kaidea, I think she means that even if you pug, you probably pug at the highest difficulty levels where they filter out harassment because the pool of raiders that can play at that level is small anyways. You can't really evaluate the parser culture because the bulk of it is going to hit peoplein the middle reaches of skill, in the same way Overwatch pros and normal players have different cultures and player rankings. Generally world firsters you have to ignore in these discussions; they aren't the ones who are indicative of the general culture of the game.

---

THANK YOU!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

I very strongly recommend you check out ACT to realign your perceptions. Not only is your analysis of threat and DPS completely incorrect, there are other factors that are significantly reducing your "merit" to make this statement.



I must be misunderstanding you somewhere. I don't "intentionally" keep away from parser harassment in WoW. I simply don't see it. I still PUG content frequently.



Read my post, and read yours. Which one of us sounds "emotional"? Where did I say anything about being in a crowd of "select few"?

The other major difference in our posts is that I am stating my opinion and providing examples to support my statements. You are stating yours as if it was fact. Which is not the case.

Another tidbit you had wrong is I have never once stated parser harassment does not occur EVER. That is ridiculous stance to take. I've always tried to direct your attention from the constant combination of the words "parser" and "harassment". They are 2 separate things.



Again, in what world did I ever say or imply I knew more than Yoshi personally? I've simply stated examples of why Yoshi's word isn't the hand of god.

Please, do me a favor. The next time you PERSONALLY see harassment stemming from a parser, copy and paste it, report it, and then post it here for all of us to see. This way I can keep track of it.

---

No you are trying to pass your limited experience as fact by calling everyone else having "anecdotal experience".
The only "anecdotal experience" is yours, your "anecdotal experience" is the minority.

So I am confused, in your old posts you seem to be trying to pass your experience as fact, and now you take back in saying "I have never once stated parser harassment does not occur" and also this is backstepping your discussion "I've always tried to direct your attention from the constant combination of the words "parser" and "harassment". They are 2 separate things."

I am not a 5 year old, you can talk about one's dps without a parser and without harassment. I am always been referring to harassment based on parsers, as in, something wouldn't happen if the person was not using them, like kick abuse, repeatably being vulgar, telling people to uninstall and die, making people feel bad because some healer or tank has more DPS then someone on DPS job, etc... You did not give support to anything other then proving my point, like the other poster tried to explain, it is from your limited range of people that you deal with, to make it seem parser harassment is at a minimum on wow. ON FFXIV the only reason you do not see it a lot is because most people know they will be easily hit by a GM when it is reported, and yet PEOPLE STILL DO IT, rarely, but the fact remains it still happens when it is a ToS violation, what do you think will happen if they allow public parers? GM calls be flooded with complaints. That is another reason they do not want to open Pandora's box, it is quite clear they do not get a lot of budget and a small GM team, they wouldn't be able to handle the volume of calls it would bring, on top of large skill gaps, you are just playing with fire, releasing a public parser in this game's state.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tridus

I figure if he really disliked it, he'd change it. :)

---

The way I see it is if the average tank/healer is unable to focus on doing dps now when the actual tank/healing requirements are low, how will they even be able to clear content when it's changed so that high end players can't sit in dps stance all day or let regens/fairy and ogcds do most of the healing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

No you are trying to pass your limited experience as fact by calling everyone else having "anecdotal experience".
The only "anecdotal experience" is yours, your "anecdotal experience" is the minority.

---

To be fair, everyone's experiences here are considered anecdotal. Everyone has their own personal experiences regarding parsers; personal equates to anecdotal. Unless the same experience is considered massive/the majority (and I'm talking 50% of the playerbase or more, so effectively ~450,000 personal accounts, since Lucky's last census had active characters near 900,000), they're all anecdotes. The good and the bad.

This is speaking strictly on FFXIV. I cannot speak for other games (WoW, Overwatch, etc.) because I don't play them.

In most play though DRG don't need to even use elusive jump; they aren't like red mage or bard where it's not a dps loss to back dash out of an aoe, so you're better off sticking close. It's really just an issue in high end raiding play due to raiders being addicted to being in dps stance for virtually all of the fight and burst in openers. Enmity list isn't a bad way to rank DPS since generally they aren't using enmity down moves for that purpose. As red mage I don't need to hit my enmity down move unless I wipe or need to spam raise for example. BLM only needs to use it to cut enmity. It's a lot different in more casual content because you don't need to cheese the enmity line so much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

To be fair, everyone's experiences here are considered anecdotal. Everyone has their own personal experiences regarding parsers; personal equates to anecdotal. Unless the same experience is considered massive/the majority (and I'm talking 50% of the playerbase or more, so effectively ~450,000 personal accounts, since Lucky's last census had active characters near 900,000), they're all anecdotes. The good and the bad.

This is speaking strictly on FFXIV. I cannot speak for other games (WoW, Overwatch, etc.) because I don't play them.

---

yeah ik, but i think the other person is having issues seeing that, that was the point of my last post, well post before the one you quoted of me

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Enmity list isn't a bad way to rank DPS since generally they aren't using enmity down moves for that purpose. As red mage I don't need to hit my enmity down move unless I wipe or need to spam raise for example. BLM only needs to use it to cut enmity. It's a lot different in more casual content because you don't need to cheese the enmity line so much.

---

Even in casual settings players should be making use of their enmity skills. If you are a geared DPS (330~340) matched against a tank with weaker (290~300, or even lower) gear, you should be using Lucid and Diversion to make things easier on the lesser-geared tank. Enmity is still not a good way to measure DPS. A lot of jobs have no enmity dump (MNK/SAM), but can still be doing less damage than another job with better gear even though their (the MNK/SAM) enmity is higher.

There are several jobs that I cannot play at any sort of good or optimized level, but I still watch my enmity and quell/dump as needed. It's just common courtesy....and the fact that I don't want things to turn around and smack me in the face.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

In most play though DRG don't need to even use elusive jump; they aren't like red mage or bard where it's not a dps loss to back dash out of an aoe, so you're better off sticking close. It's really just an issue in high end raiding play due to raiders being addicted to being in dps stance for virtually all of the fight and burst in openers. Enmity list isn't a bad way to rank DPS since generally they aren't using enmity down moves for that purpose. As red mage I don't need to hit my enmity down move unless I wipe or need to spam raise for example. BLM only needs to use it to cut enmity. It's a lot different in more casual content because you don't need to cheese the enmity line so much.

---

I'll be blunt. If you aren't needing to dump your aggro on Red Mage, it's because your damage is low. They have a huge spike in their openers, and will pull off even geared tanks without using Lucid/Diversion prior. Unless, of course, the tank sits in tank stance the whole fight. And if you think good tanks are going to do that against bosses? Well... don't be surprised if you get deleted by a cleave or buster. I will try and accommodate Monks and Samurai who use Diversion given there isn't an alternative for them yet. If a Red Mage pulls off me because they refused to hit Lucid, I'mma let you die.

The tank is going to start in tank stance in most casual content, and build enmity enough before switching to DPS because they aren't going to have a NIN to dump aggro or another tank to shirk aggro on them in much content. Red mages opener isn't THAT much DPS, you have all of two OGCD that do sizable damage and 4 OGCD total. Then its just building damage through GCD. The problem is you don't stay in tank stance long at all and rely on more or less cheap tactics to overcome the lack of enmity that don't happen in much of the game, and you use comps that focus on stacking buffs that don't always happen in many party setups.

raiders really cheese a lot of things and think its skill when its not. If the boss ever decided to reflect debuffs, you'd all have no idea what to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

raiders really cheese a lot of things and think its skill when its not. If the boss ever decided to reflect debuffs, you'd all have no idea what to do.

---

If there was ever anything on the forums I read that was pig-headed, this is it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Kaidea, I think she means that even if you pug, you probably pug at the highest difficulty levels where they filter out harassment because the pool of raiders that can play at that level is small anyways. You can't really evaluate the parser culture because the bulk of it is going to hit people in the middle reaches of skill, in the same way Overwatch pros and normal players have different cultures and player rankings. Generally world firsters you have to ignore in these discussions; they aren't the ones who are indicative of the general culture of the game.

---

Of course I can evaluate parser culture. I've been a better part of it in over a decade of MMO gaming across half a dozen MMO's with both hidden and public parsing.

I'm ALL for you and anyone else refuting my specific examples as to how I arrived at my conclusions. I welcome that as it's what generates healthy discussion, but I fail to see how my previous experience disqualifies my viewpoint on the topic.

I think you/Starstruck somehow missed my point. It could likely be fault for not being clear enough so let me restate it:

I like being able to pick and choose people of MY skill to play with. That doesn't mean I'm good or bad. It merely means I like playing with like minded players. People with the SAME goal. It means if I am a bad player, I like playing with other bad players. We can all struggle and overcome the obstacle together. If I am a decent player it means I can group with other decent players I can count on and learn with/from. If I am an elite player, I play with other elites so I can push the envelope of my respective job/environment.

I personally (see: personally means anecdotal, not me stating something as if it were fact) believe that is good design. It helps set expectations of each other. IMO FF14 does not accomplish this well by hiding feedback and sheltering poorly performing players, which again, IMO unmitigated parsing would fix.

If you disagree with this statement that is fine, cite your reasoning why.

If you say something like "parsers would cause toxicity to go up" then you missed my entire point. You'd be stating your opinion as fact. If you stated "I think parsers like that would cause toxicity to increase" you're still not providing any examples/insight to substantiate your point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

If we go by the following two assumptions:

Talking DPS numbers would be allowed.

Harassing someone over their DPS (Or indeed anything else) would still be an offence in the same way that it is now.

I actually think very little would change. Yes you'd get people discussing DPS in 8 man PF raid content but really now, where's the harm in that as long as it stays civil? If it doesn't? Report it, it's one less cretin that we all have to deal with.

As far as more casual content goes? Again, don't like it? There's a vote kick for that. We have the tools to police ourselves to a fair degree, and contrary to what these threads suggest, it's not only the pro parse crowd that can use them.

---

Bingo. This 100%.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

No you are trying to pass your limited experience as fact by calling everyone else having "anecdotal experience".
The only "anecdotal experience" is yours, your "anecdotal experience" is the minority.

---

1) You stated my anecdotal experience as "limited". This is you stating your opinion as fact again. How do you know what my experience is? Mind you in a previous response I've detailed my experience. How that qualifies as 'limited' I suppose I'll never know. Maybe I can apply for a job with 10years of experience, and I'll just put on my resume, limited experience in database design, marketing, blah blah.

2) You then proceed with a statement saying that my experience is the minority. Again, you are stating your opinion as a fact. What dataset have you seen that demonstrates that my viewpoint is the minority.

You are not providing any insight nor examples to substantiate your statement.

Quote:

---

So I am confused, in your old posts you seem to be trying to pass your experience as fact, and now you take back in saying "I have never once stated parser harassment does not occur" and also this is backstepping your discussion "I've always tried to direct your attention from the constant combination of the words "parser" and "harassment". They are 2 separate things."

---

You misunderstand. I am not attempting to pass my experiences off as facts. If you have an example, please cite it so I can correct it/clarify. You will very frequently see in my responses the words "personally", "IMO", "think", and other such words that demonstrate that I am stating something as my opinion, and I almost always substantiate my opinion with an example/insight and derive where it came from AND that is always up for challenge/discussion. That's the difference. That's why when people make a statement without providing WHY, it leaves the only conclusion as someone is presenting as fact, which does little to stimulate actual discussion.

I'm not taking anything back either. I am merely clarifying. In any of these half a dozen parser threads I never state with absolution that parser harassment doesn't occur. I merely state that it is less common and I cited my examples as to WHY I believe that to be the case.

In all things, I always welcome people to try and get me to see their side. I have been convinced before. I have issued apologies, and I have learned things I did not know before because I am always open to discussion.

Quote:

---

You did not give support to anything other then proving my point, like the other poster tried to explain, it is from your limited range of people that you deal with, to make it seem parser harassment is at a minimum on wow.

---

Limited range? I did leveling dungeons, heroic dungeons, normal mode raids, heroic raids, and EVEN pugged mythic bosses. I did world quests, world bosses, and Mythic +, all just like everyone else. Just using the most recent expansion, Legion. I can count on hand the # of times I saw someone was harassed in chat for parsers. 0 times. The last time I saw actual parser harassment was in WotLK, nearly 7 years ago.

The only thing I didn't do was LFR because there is no reason for me too. Are you implying that LFR is > EVERY other content form combined? That'd be a very questionable stance to take IMO.

Me saying this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It means that in my experience it's significantly less common than forums suggest, which is to be expected given that forums are occasionally used as a means to troubleshoot/vent.

Quote:

---

ON FFXIV the only reason you do not see it a lot is because most people know they will be easily hit by a GM when it is reported, and yet PEOPLE STILL DO IT, rarely, but the fact remains it still happens when it is a ToS violation, what do you think will happen if they allow public parers? GM calls be flooded with complaints. That is another reason they do not want to open Pandora's box, it is quite clear they do not get a lot of budget and a small GM team, they wouldn't be able to handle the volume of calls it would bring, on top of large skill gaps, you are just playing with fire, releasing a public parser in this game's state.

---

You're repeating these "small budget" and "small GM team" statements again. You even state "it is quite clear". Would you mind clarifying this? I gave an example and some insight the last time I challenged this and you ignored it, but here you are stating it again.

How do you know they have a small budget or not a lot of GMs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

To be fair, everyone's experiences here are considered anecdotal. Everyone has their own personal experiences regarding parsers; personal equates to anecdotal. Unless the same experience is considered massive/the majority (and I'm talking 50% of the playerbase or more, so effectively ~450,000 personal accounts, since Lucky's last census had active characters near 900,000), they're all anecdotes. The good and the bad.

This is speaking strictly on FFXIV. I cannot speak for other games (WoW, Overwatch, etc.) because I don't play them.

---

Nothing wrong with anecdotes. It helps give context and understanding.

Saying "parsers create more toxicitity" vs. saying "I think parsers create more toxicity, because xyz". One of these opens up discussion and lends credence to the poster, the other one IMO tends to be inflammatory because it comes off as stated as fact with absolutely no insight/evidence to substantiate it.

I could stand to learn to sugarcoat a little bit better like you, but that's not who I am. I like to challenge people to shake their views and expectations, and I always encourage others to do the same. it's how I make slow work days go by :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

If there was ever anything on the forums I read that was pig-headed, this is it.

---

if the boss randomly decided to increase enmity on one party member, it would break your shirk combo. If they nerfed nin shadewalker, youd be screwed. If DRG only buffed spear damage instead of all piercing damage, and all buffs were solely for each jobs weapon type, you'd lose so much advantage that you'd be scrambling for a new meta. If healing potency dropped, you'd have no choice but to stay in tank stance and use jobs with mitigation in tank stance. most of you guys vastly overrate your skill and underrate how much the mob design more or less give certain party metas free reign.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

if the boss randomly decided to increase enmity on one party member, it would break your shirk combo. If they nerfed nin shadewalker, youd be screwed. If DRG only buffed spear damage instead of all piercing damage, and all buffs were solely for each jobs weapon type, you'd lose so much advantage that you'd be scrambling for a new meta. If healing potency dropped, you'd have no choice but to stay in tank stance and use jobs with mitigation in tank stance. most of you guys vastly overrate your skill and underrate how much the mob design more or less give certain party metas free reign.

---

Yeah, because no player is ever capable of adapting to changes in the game's balance. This game's balance has never changed in the 4+ years it's been played. Every class, encounter and the methods people have taken have been the exact same. /s

Raiding doesn't even work the same way now as it did in 3.x. As I said, your statements are pig-headed and condescending.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

raiders really cheese a lot of things and think its skill when its not. If the boss ever decided to reflect debuffs, you'd all have no idea what to do.

---

At least be rational please? That is absolute nonsense and you know it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Of course I can evaluate parser culture. I've been a better part of it in over a decade of MMO gaming across half a dozen MMO's with bothhidden and public parsing.

I'm ALL for you and anyone else refuting my specific examples as to how I arrived at my conclusions. I welcome that as it's what generates healthy discussion, but I fail to see how my previous experience disqualifies my viewpoint on the topic.

I think you/Starstruck somehow missed my point. It could likely be fault for not being clear enough so let me restate it:

I like being able to pick and choose people of MY skill to play with. That doesn't mean I'm good or bad. It merely means I like playing with like minded players. People with the SAME goal. It means if I am a bad player, I like playing with other bad players. We can all struggle and overcome the obstacle together. If I am a decent player it means I can group with other decent players I can count on and learn with/from. If I am an elite player, I play with other elites so I can push the envelope of my respective job/environment.

---

Still proving my point. It limits your experience to the full player base. You do not know how widespread parser harassment is, why are you even posting here on this issue? parser harassment is common, PERIOD. FFXIV is an exception because of SE's strong stance and even WITH THAT, parser harassment still happens, and the funny thing is, you still did not comment on that fact.

So because of it EXISITING TODAY while being against the ToS, it will ONLY increase with a public one, its simple logic. The oonly one is not understanding is you, not us.

Quote:

---

Saying "parsers create more toxicitity" vs. saying "I think parsers create more toxicity, because xyz". One of these opens up discussion and lends credence to the poster, the other one IMO tends to be inflammatory because it comes off as stated as fact with absolutely no insight/evidence to substantiate it.

---

Then stop passing your opinion as fact?

Parsing has a place in Final fantasy 14 but a very niche place.
I would not want it freely used in all game content.It would be abused in content where parsers arent needed.

The best solutions for the implementation of a parser system would be to have it only enabled in Savage modes where people do dedicate a lot of time for clears.
That being said we could make it optional so if for example you are useing party finder or raid finder there has to be a preselected option by the leader to display that its a party with a parser running.
Having an option like this would also make it viable for extreme trials but it should only be allowed at the highest character level,
What i mean by this is that any under lvl 70 content has parsing removed if players in the party are over the content level.

Could always end up doing it like the upcoming "record" feature that is happening, where everyone has to consent to it before it gets used. Though, at the same time there is the possibility that it would cause harassment by kicking people who reject the use of it.

It's one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations where the select few who are overly toxic regarding it will ruin it for others.

Me, personally, I don't care if people run the parser as long as they aren't discriminating/harassing others due to it.

the encounters have been similar for the most part, save for a couple gimmicks like the gobwalker or the gorilla, and the raid style gameplay has been static for over three years. They even started standardizing and reusing earlier mechanics from past endgame, in order to enable players to eyeball and predict them. The big difference is that its easier overall, and people only adapted because they nerfed the heck out of HW to bring it down to a much more palatable level.Whenever they make it hard again, grats less than 1% of the playerbase clears, i.e Super Savage. I don't think they'd adapt as easy as people think, and for people who talk so much about unskilled players, they forget how much raiding was nerfed to keep people even doing it, and how easy SE can just break 90% of raiders through difficulty in content. And pigheaded is the constant raider obsession with getting parsers into the game; they need to make raids much harder if they are going to worry so much about others playing and not themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avatre

Though, at the same time there is the possibility that it would cause harassment by kicking people who reject the use of it.

---

And frankly, if they do that, the person who got kicked is being done a favour. It would come under playstyle differences and I'd say fair game. You can always make your own PF. Not all players are going to gel with each other. I don't gel with the elite for example, I am far too casual. I'm not even midcore these days, so why would I want to play with the elite group who parse? I wouldn't fit in, so I'm best off staying out of it.

Frankly, I think this is what needs to happen at a community level. We need to understand that there are different player groups, and not everyone is going to fit into each player group, and that's absolutely fine! Build up a community of like-minded individuals. Ir's OK to not get on with everyone! Let's not let the select few ruin it for everyone else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The tank is going to start in tank stance in most casual content, and build enmity enough before switching to DPS because they aren't going to have a NIN to dump aggro or another tank to shirk aggro on them in much content. Red mages opener isn't THAT much DPS, you have all of two OGCD that do sizable damage and 4 OGCD total. Then its just building damage through GCD. The problem is you don't stay in tank stance long at all and rely on more or less cheap tactics to overcome the lack of enmity that don't happen in much of the game, and you use comps that focus on stacking buffs that don't always happen in many party setups.

raiders really cheese a lot of things and think its skill when its not. If the boss ever decided to reflect debuffs, you'd all have no idea what to do.

---

A tank shouldn't have to use their aggro combo more than once. Even without a Ninja, I can hold aggro through just Tomahawk (Equilibrium) -> Heavy Swing and go into Deliverance from there. It only becomes an issue if there are actually good players in my party or people aren't managing their own aggro. What I will not do is accommodate your laziness. Aggro is the responsibility of everyone. If you cannot be bothered to press Lucid Dreaming, why should I be bothered to assure the boss doesn't smack you? The fact you claim a Red Mage's opening burst doesn't deal "that much damage" shows how little you know of the job. I raid with one while a friend plays it as her secondary main. Without Lucid/Diversion, they will both rip almost instantly.

... what? If I can "cheese" things yet perform the role to an equivalent or superior level, how isn't that skill? Ironically, your post basically boiled down to you shouldn't have to use aggro abilities because tanks should stay in tank stance. And we'd have a far better understanding of what to do than you, considering, you know, we actually raid and push ourselves to be better players. You argue against content you don't even participate in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

Still proving my point. It limits your experience to the full player base. You do not know how widespread parser harassment is, why are you even posting here on this issue? parser harassment is common, PERIOD. FFXIV is an exception because of SE's strong stance and even WITH THAT, parser harassment still happens, and the funny thing is, you still did not comment on that fact.

So because of it EXISITING TODAY while being against the ToS, it will ONLY increase with a public one, its simple logic. The oonly one is not understanding is you, not us.

---

If a parser were implemented would it suddenly negate the fact that harassment is against the ToS and is a bannable offense? I don't think so.

A parser being part of the game does not entitle any player to disrespect any other player. Harrassing some about their dps/glam/irl things will still be against the rules.

I disagree.Because of doing content unsynced a lot of people actually dont know recycled mechanics.I see it the whole time.
Nidhogg ex is a prime example of people not bothering to learn mechanics.There is actually a much lower success rate of players clearing this at lvl 70 than there was at lvl 60.
Simple reason is people are being brought up on the idea that its more important to dps hard to skip mechanics than to learn mechanics.
The end result being that people run around like headlless chickens on fireball phase and kill each other and then blame low dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

If a parser were implemented would it suddenly negate the fact that harassment is against the ToS and is a bannable offense? I don't think so.
A parser being part of the game does not entitle any player to disrespect any other player. Harrassing some about their dps/glam/irl things will still be against the rules.

---

I addressed that:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

ON FFXIV the only reason you do not see it a lot is because most people know they will be easily hit by a GM when it is reported, and yet PEOPLE STILL DO IT, rarely, but the fact remains it still happens when it is a ToS violation, what do you think will happen if they allow public parers? GM calls be flooded with complaints. That is another reason they do not want to open Pandora's box, it is quite clear they do not get a lot of budget and a small GM team, they wouldn't be able to handle the volume of calls it would bring, on top of large skill gaps, you are just playing with fire, releasing a public parser in this game's state.

---

I bet you that is the main reason they do not want to add an official praser.

I love parsers for myself and my group. Main reason is because you can see where the group is lagging. Not from a blame standpoint, but just from a data standpoint. No deaths except for a team-wide enrage wipe? Let's look at the DPS numbers and see what's going on. Perhaps someone isn't using an optimal rotation or doesn't know any better. A teaching moment! Tons of deaths but DPS was decent? You can see total amount of deaths, and per person. This is usually not understanding mechanics well. Another teaching moment.

You get the idea. Parsers help you with this, and if you're a good human, allows you to try to help others with that data instead of scrutinize them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Frankly, I think this is what needs to happen at a community level. We need to understand that there are different player groups, and not everyone is going to fit into each player group, and that's absolutely fine! Build up a community of like-minded individuals. Ir's OK to not get on with everyone! Let's not let the select few ruin it for everyone else.

---

Oh, I completely agree. I'm just saying that there will be people who view it as harassment, and will likely come to the forums screaming bloody murder. The best way, at least that I find, to deal with situations I don't agree with(aside from physical harm to others/stuff that I can actually make a difference in by speaking up/acting against) is to move along past it and not let it get to me/ignore that it's actually there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

raiders really cheese a lot of things and think its skill when its not. If the boss ever decided to reflect debuffs, you'd all have no idea what to do.

---

Riyah, I have asked you before why you care so much about parser debates, especially when they relate to content that you do not even take part in, and have never received an answer. You’ve made your stance on how you feel about raiders and parsers well-known through a lot of unnecessarily hostile and ignorant posts. We get it; you don’t like raiders and you don’t like parsers. And that’s fine. But there’s no need for overexaggeration, nor your hostility.



This thread is supposed to be about survey feedback, opinion clarifications and explanations, and for civilized discussion. Coming in here and calling people (key word here is people) pigheaded just because you disagree with them is not civilized. This thread was more or less civilized debating until the last couple of pages, which was something I was glad to see, since so many debates surrounding parsers and raiders tend to turn sour quickly. I’m asking everyone here now to just return to the polite debates that the majority of the thread has been. You can’t get anywhere with name-calling and hostility, and they do nothing for your arguments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

the encounters have been similar for the most part

---

Not even going to waste my time explaining why someone who doesn't raid shouldn't even bother posting their meaningless opinion on how similar or different encounters have been.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The big difference is that its easier overall, and people only adapted because they nerfed the heck out of HW to bring it down to a much more palatable level.Whenever they make it hard again, grats less than 1% of the playerbase clears, i.e Super Savage.

---

They never "nerfed" HW. If you're referring to Gordias, they went on record to say they that they didn't even test the content properly. It had nothing to do with difficulty. It was developer incompetence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I don't think they'd adapt as easy as people think, and for people who talk so much about unskilled players, they forget how much raiding was nerfed to keep people even doing it,

---

That's your opinion, and the only raiding content "nerfed," aside from post-relevance or during echo is the difficulty comparison between Omega and Alexander, specifically creator. They only lowered the difficulty because people they wanted a lower bottom line. Raiders, who we are talking about, not casuals, did the content just fine and had little complaints. In fact some people considered creator and omega too easy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

and how easy SE can just break 90% of raiders through difficulty in content.

---

Flat out untrue. Generally anyone who gets cold feet and quits was never a serious raider in the first place. Most midcore groups have never quit content just because it was difficult.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

And pigheaded is the constant raider obsession with getting parsers into the game; they need to make raids much harder if they are going to worry so much about others playing and not themselves.

---

"I don't like the way certain people talk so I'm validated in making rude comments," Ok. Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because you think that way doesn't mean you can blanket statement raiders as people who are incapable of playing the game if their precious meta is broken, or that they're too stupid to function in conditions where things aren't ideal for them. Despite the fact that raiders have constantly asked for that, which is why ultimate exists. There are plenty of groups who are still attempting to clear ultimate, even if many haven't.

Also it's not just raiders who want parsers, but feel free to constantly ignore those people who have already stated they don't raid and still want one.

Do you really just hate people having a different definition of fun than you? It feels like like everything you post is so personally driven.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Coming in here and calling people (key word here is people) pigheaded just because you disagree with them is not civilized.

---

Was this addressing me? I actually can't tell since you mention the keyword, and I was specifically addressing the words being used and less Riyah as a person.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Riyah, I have asked you before why you care so much about parser debates, especially when they relate to content that you do not even take part in, and have never received an answer. You’ve made your stance on how you feel about raiders and parsers well-known through a lot of unnecessarily hostile and ignorantposts. We get it; you don’t like raiders and you don’t like parsers. And that’s fine. But there’s no need for overexaggeration, nor your hostility.



This thread is supposed to be about survey feedback, opinion clarifications and explanations, and for civilized discussion. Coming in here and calling people (key word here is people) pigheaded just because you disagree with them is not civilized. This thread was more or less civilized debating until the last couple of pages, which was something I was glad to see, since so many debates surrounding parsers and raiders tend to turn sour quickly. I’m asking everyone here now to just return to the polite debates that the majority of the thread has been. You can’t get anywhere with name-calling and hostility, and they do nothing for your arguments.

---

feel free tell me if i go outside the scope of the thread you had envisioned. In the end of the day I wish FFXIV's development team would give us SOMETHING to fight the huge skill gap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

I am not a 5 year old, you can talk about one's dps without a parser and without harassment. I am always been referring to harassment based on parsers, as in, something wouldn't happen if the person was not using them, like kick abuse, repeatably being vulgar, telling people to uninstall and die, making people feel bad because some healer or tank has more DPS then someone on DPS job, etc... You did not give support to anything other then proving my point, like the other poster tried to explain, it is from your limited range of people that you deal with, to make it seem parser harassment is at a minimum on wow. ON FFXIV the only reason you do not see it a lot is because most people know they will be easily hit by a GM when it is reported, and yet PEOPLE STILL DO IT, rarely, but the fact remains it still happens when it is a ToS violation, what do you think will happen if they allow public parers? GM calls be flooded with complaints. That is another reason they do not want to open Pandora's box, it is quite clear they do not get a lot of budget and a small GM team, they wouldn't be able to handle the volume of calls it would bring, on top of large skill gaps, you are just playing with fire, releasing a public parser in this game's state.

---

I need to preface two things here:

First, I do agree that parser harassment exist. As to how much obviously depends on someone's POV.

Second: Just by going from "The tales of DF", its clear that people have different views on what is harassment and I'll explain below.

With that out of the way...

When it comes to the first and second bolded part, I'm left confused. You see, for awhile now, one of the more most common points that anti-parsers make is that there will be more harassment than before. Plus you mention they wouldn't happen without a parser. So I read the bolded parts and then I think this:


kick abuse: Happens already except you have to ask yourself which is worse: the person kicking because they feel like you're the one doing bad dps or they kick because they actually have a tool that literally proves you're doing bad dps? And this is just the worst of scenarios, in which the kick abuser's some idiot who only looks at numbers, for better lack of word. What if the kick abuser, in a better scenario, actually understands how to use and operate a parser and has no other recourse but to kick you, as civilly as possible? Is that still a form of harassment?

repeatably being vulgar:Here's an hypothetical here: Today, Ben and Jane-with the "don't ask, don't tell" parser policy-decide to join a savage run seperately. Ben's a total dick all day and all night. Jane's a good natured played. They both parse silently. Someone keeps wiping the raid in both of their runs. Ben being Ben harasses the unskilled player without the mention of a parser. He gets reported anyways and gets a strike. Jane on the other hand, simply mentions that it doesn't work out and states matters as-of-factly. She hopes the unskilled player gets better and disbands.

With your statement, you're making sounds as if tomorrow, if the parse policy would get lifted, Ben gets a full license to be an ass without sanction and since you say "there will be more", Jane will be a full on bitch with the parser. Except we already know harassment in any shape or form, gets punished.

And this is where my second preface point comes in: We know there's people who view being called out as harassment. Is the "more harassment" you speak of include Jane's civil treatment of the unskilled player? Because if it is, then yes, ironically you'd be right: there will be "more harassment".


telling people to uninstall and die: already happens and this doesn't even occur just in raiding. PvP has been at times rife with this. Again, still not okay regardless of circumstances and since this is a death threat, there's a great likely hood that the person who says it either gets banned outright or even perma-banned. Its not the use of a parser under our current policy that's holding people back and even if it did exist, that still would not be what would push them to say it or not say it. TL;DR :its not a parser that's going to influence someone to tell someone else to die.

making people feel bad because some healer or tank has more DPS then someone on DPS job: And this here, I feel is the crux of what all this anti-parse point is about. Again, using the small sample from "The tales of DF" thread, people have proven to be very aggressive against any form of callout. They can't handle accountability, they can't handle being told "you're dps is not great" even in the most neutral of sayings. I've seen the screenshots. I've seen those people calling others toxic for it and that for them, its harassment.

So I have to ask again: when someone says "there will be more harassment", do they mean the above? Do they mean that, since they view being called out (even civilly) as harassment, there will be more of that?

Its something anti-parsers who use that as their main argument need to think about. Because as long as you view accountability as harassment, then yes: there would be more of it.

As for the rest of of your post: If that's how you envision's the FF14 staff, then naturally you'd come to the conclusion that they'd get swamped with reports.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

if the boss randomly decided to increase enmity on one party member, it would break your shirk combo. If they nerfed nin shadewalker, youd be screwed. If DRG only buffed spear damage instead of all piercing damage, and all buffs were solely for each jobs weapon type, you'd lose so much advantage that you'd be scrambling for a new meta. If healing potency dropped, you'd have no choice but to stay in tank stance and use jobs with mitigation in tank stance. most of you guys vastly overrate your skill and underrate how much the mob design more or less give certain party metas free reign.

---

You seem to be under the delusion that the current meta didn't spring out of how the game works now, and that it hasn't changed over time as classes and mechanics were altered.

If SE nerfed Shadewalker and buffed incoming damage to the point that tank stance was necessary, raiders would adapt. They always have before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tridus

You seem to be under the delusion that the current meta didn't spring out of how the game works now, and that it hasn't changed over time as classes and mechanics were altered.

If SE nerfed Shadewalker and buffed incoming damage to the point that tank stance was necessary, raiders would adapt. They always have before.

---

Exactly.

It's like people forget that at one point in this game's lifespan that Shadewalker didn't even exist.