Coil 5 changes needed

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Originally Posted by polyhedral

Too bad that does not happen very often in T5, at all. So easy, you say? You can 4 man it, you say?

BLAH

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BLAH indeed brave little lala. The words easy or 4 man it weren't spoken by me. However I'll say it now, it is easy to carry 1 or 2 dead players through T5, especially with i110 gear.

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Originally Posted by polyhedral

Too bad that does not happen very often in T5, at all. So easy, you say? You can 4 man it, you say?

BLAH

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Yea I can. It really isn't that hard when your dps are doing 500+ (600+ now probably with i130 gear and weapon upgrades...).

I'm not opposed to them easing up on T5 eventually. But probably not until second coil has full or near full echo.

I don't think they should, honestly. We know they are planning on creating a casual-coil of sorts, just for the story. I'd say just wait until then.

They won't be able to make it easier without changing the mechanics completely. If they are going to do that, then you might as well just wait for them to put in the story-mode version.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

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Then dun even think about trying final coil if u really need echo for 2nd coil

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have you even read what I wrote ?

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not needed but easier to catch up and then go tackle T10-13

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odds are my group started to work on T6 2 days ago, 2 hours on it so far. echo would just push us (dps is slow to start on middle bulb) enough to go through. We have the hang of every mechanic of P1 and P2, our only problem comes from slow dps on middle bulb (lag on free weekend mostly, we still have to re enter).

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No. It would not ease catching up. If your DPS is not high enough to get your described issues away without echo you don't need to enter FCoB. For T10+ you will need really high DPS. Our group DPS was not really bad for SCoB. No second bee (T6). Phase push to alagan field at the end of the last 2 tower set (T8). Phase change to the last phase within the second heavens fall (T9). But at our first time we reached the "Enrage" in T10, the boss still had 23% of life left. Groups that need echo for "clean" kills in SCoB will see no light in what is coming after.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

I'll put it this way; if I'm playing a team-based FPS and one of my teammates sucks, it doesn't mean that I lose every round.

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As far as I remember, muiltiplayer FPS is PvP. You can't compare PvP with PvE.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

No. It would not ease catching up. If your DPS is not high enough to get your described issues away without echo you don't need to enter FCoB. For T10+ you will need really high DPS. Our group DPS was not really bad for SCoB. No second bee (T6). Phase push to alagan field at the end of the last 2 tower set (T8). Phase change to the last phase within the second heavens fall (T9). But at our first time we reached the "Enrage" in T10, the boss still had 23% of life left. Groups that need echo for "clean" kills in SCoB will see no light in what is coming after.

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except we won't be in i110 so we'll have more dps, and it's just a way to go faster (and circumvent lag on dps bursts). And tbh, I couldn't care less of other groups' performances. I'd just enjoy echo, that's it.

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Originally Posted by Thistledown

It's not that I can't, it's just that without a static, there's always one person who doesn't get the mechanics.

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u don't need a static. You need to make a party competent party one time to clear the content. or you need to plug away at it in the DF. Are you in an FC? has no one in ur fc cleared T% yet? Have they cleared and won't help you? If so, you are in the wrong group.

the "I can't clear because i don't have a static" is a crutch too many people are using. Take the time in the DF, take the time recruiting in PF, or simply beg ur FC to help u out.

i have ran t5 and failed enough times to know that, without making it to easy, all they need to do is drop the death wall. that damn wall is just to unforgiving to people who cant time the Divebombs... and since there is no way to practice the movements then it will always continue to be this way. with just 1 or 2 deaths it makes the snakes very hard to manage.

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Originally Posted by Pterois

i have ran t5 and failed enough times to know that, without making it to easy, all they need to do is drop the death wall. that damn wall is just to unforgiving to people who cant time the Divebombs... and since there is no way to practice the movements then it will always continue to be this way. with just 1 or 2 deaths it makes the snakes very hard to manage.

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practice the movement? for dodging divebombs? You can go to the pit as a group and practice moving in and out of it without starting the encounter. Also in i100-i110 gear 1 or 2 deaths even if its 2 dps deaths makes the snakes a bit harder sure, but still much easier than when 4 dps in i80-90 gear were doing in last year.

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Originally Posted by Pterois

i have ran t5 and failed enough times to know that, without making it to easy, all they need to do is drop the death wall. that damn wall is just to unforgiving to people who cant time the Divebombs... and since there is no way to practice the movements then it will always continue to be this way. with just 1 or 2 deaths it makes the snakes very hard to manage.

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What practice is there? See a big green symbol and hear a ding and INSTANTLY AND AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE run 4 feet up a hill and 4 feet back down directly where you were standing. This isn't rocket science. It's only 4 feet and only after a very simple and specific signal. It's not ambiguous or anything. It's not on the other side of the screen. Every player is stacked on top of one another so it's right there in front of your face AND it has an audio queue. I completely fail to understand why this is a difficult concept for people.

The thing people mess up the most isn't even the dodging. It's the simple concept that you need to be at the lowest part of the hill stacked on everyone or you'll get people killed. That's what I see go wrong the most.

If people can't handle this mechanic they will have a very rough time in the second coil. This is about as simple as the bigger mechanics get and it's only tougher from here on out. If you really want to practice go pick a spot in the world, have a friend go *ding* on mumble and then move 4 feet and back as quickly as you can. It's not hard. This is literally all this mechanic is.

If for some reason your always "late" then you may have either a high ping, are on a ps3, or you have graphics lag due to graphics settings being too high for your machine or just an old machine in general. I can understand those preventing you from getting it down, but not the difficulty of the mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

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better calm down Tiggy, people are going to call you a shameful elitist.

I don't think they should nerf T5 any further, but it would be nice if they incentivized the content so more people would be willing to run T5 and help people through it.

As of right now, the ONLY reason to run T5 is to get your progression clear. An experienced raider who's cleared T5 has no reason to ever run it again. Newer players looking to clear T5 have more difficulty finding experienced players to run this fight with, excluding acts of utter charity.

Make T5 drop some cool, exclusive glamour gear or something ---- you'll see experienced players running it again and it will, in turn, help newer players pass through the barrier.

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Originally Posted by Kail

I don't think they should nerf T5 any further, but it would be nice if they incentivized the content so more people would be willing to run T5 and help people through it.

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They kind of did. You can desynth the fist coil gear into Allagan components required for certain high end crafts. It should be taken further though. This is old content so it wouldn't be a bad idea to add some sort of new drop to it just for crafting or something.

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Originally Posted by Kail

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Not likely. This would probably just make people start farm groups and still exclude new people. Saying that people who beat T5 once never run it again isn't true either. Like others have said, ask your FC members, and set up your own PF to get the clear. Unless every player who claims that they know a fight but it's others who are holding them back lives completely isolated from each other, you'll get the clear. T5 is a very easy fight once you understand mechanics, and take a breath and stop panicking when you see twisters or divebombs.

There's absolutely no reason to nerf T5 beyond what it currently is, because if you can't get past T5, you have absolutely no hope of clearing turns 6-9. Turn 5 is basically there to ease you into what's to come. The practice of putting training wheels on more and more content just increases the difficulty curve in this game and makes inexperienced players more helpless in actually challenging content.

T5 needs a lot of group practice you can't just Rubin there and expect a clear
Pf farm groups still struggle on clearing it due to the mechanics of the fight
As people have mentioned a group of players all practicing together and communicating
Is the best way for a clear just be patient and it will come

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Originally Posted by NeaturalBomber

TPf farm groups still struggle on clearing it due to the mechanics of the fight

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If the players in the farm party are actually at the point where they can farm T5 they aren't struggling. They can wipe for sure, mistakes happen but they aren't going to struggle. If they are struggling I wouldn't call it a farm party but rather a clear/learning party.

T5 does not need nerfing. Nothing in FF14 needs nerfing. There is absolutely NOTHING in FF14 that is actually hard. What makes content hard in FF14 is finding 7 other members that are competent and focused enough to learn and react to the mechanics. I completely understand your frustration and often times I too think a slight "mechanic" nerf is needed.. but at the end of the day it just means Im not rolling with the right group. So instead of asking for nerfs, ask for more way to connect to other players, ask for more ways on how to connect with other players. This is an MMO, which means you need to be able to play with other players to get at the really challenging stuff and SE has streamlined the game so much that there really isnt any skill required. All you need is to find 7 players that have a decent memory and can react to specific mechanics and you can pretty much clear anything this game throws at you.

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Originally Posted by DenebPunkin

There is absolutely NOTHING in FF14 that is actually hard.

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I'm glad you can say nothing is hard even though you haven't yet cleared T9 and everything that comes after (savage, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

I'm glad you can say nothing is hard even though you haven't yet cleared T9 and everything that comes after (savage, etc.).

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You didnt seem to read everything that was posted. I said nothing is hard when you have 7 other good competent players to do the content with. Thats all it comes down to, having a complete group of players to do the content with. Several of my friends that have cleared all savage coils and the new FCoB still wipe and cant clear the EX primals when half the party isnt competent enough to learn or react to the mechanics. There are also plenty of players who have t9 clears already, and are known for not being very good players.. if they are getting clears... this only further shows the content to be easy if they are already buying their clears.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

If the players in the farm party are actually at the point where they can farm T5 they aren't struggling. They can wipe for sure, mistakes happen but they aren't going to struggle. If they are struggling I wouldn't call it a farm party but rather a clear/learning party.

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What I mean by struggle is trying to dodge mechanics such as dive bombs and twisters due to region lag or multiple mistakes on the same mechanic an extra couple of sec cast time could be introduced to help players learn the mechanic a little better but the challenge of the fight does make coils worth the effort to clear with a bit of practice

How would a nerf effect those who like challenging content and have already done said content? Why aren't any of these people who claim to like challenging content, doing savage then? You all say, there is no reward for doing challenging content like savage, yet, there is no reward outside of the main freaking story that I care about in coil. The gear looks goofy outside of final coil.

Yeah, two things here, that don't make any damn sense to myself. You want challenge? It's yours. You can queue savage all, day, long. Yet, you don't.

So maybe you're not so favorable for challenging content at all? Just a thought to throw out there...

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Originally Posted by polyhedral

You can queue savage all, day, long. Yet, you don't.
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I don't really see anyone here arguing that T5 should be MORE challenging at all. Nor are they talking about savage. This is how strawmen work.

Also, savage was from the beginning only for the smallest minority of the raiding tiers. Those people who like this stuff do actually run it. Just because you may not know someone running it doesn't mean it isn't working entirely as intended. So your point, even if it was on topic, is really irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I don't really see anyone here arguing that T5 should be MORE challenging at all. Nor are they talking about savage. This is how strawmen work.

Also, savage was from the beginning only for the smallest minority of the raiding tiers. Those people who like this stuff do actually run it. Just because you may not know someone running it doesn't mean it isn't working entirely as intended. So your point, even if it was on topic, is really irrelevant.

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I know people who run it, but they're not on the main forums crying against a T5 nerf either. Don't put words in my mouth, or claim to know me. That's your problem, not mine.

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Originally Posted by polyhedral

I know people who run it, but they're not on the main forums crying against a T5 nerf either. Don't put words in my mouth, or claim to know me. That's your problem, not mine.

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Where did I claim to know you? You mean that part that doesn't exist where I some how said you did or didn't do something? Unlike your whole post where you're putting words in peoples mouths about them running savage or not? But all I did was refuted your point, not you as a person. I didn't even put words in your mouth as it was a response. You posited a point about savage that didn't seem to make sense considering the topic so I pointed it out and responded to it. You even go to say that people who want a challenge should queue for it but don't. You're clearly responding to something, but I can't see who or what that was since we are talking about T5 which doesn't even have a savage mode. No words being put in a mouth. No assumptions about you as a person. Just the confusion about how savage was relevant to the current conversation or how barely any people running it was important at all.

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Originally Posted by NeaturalBomber

What I mean by struggle is trying to dodge mechanics such as dive bombs and twisters due to region lag or multiple mistakes on the same mechanic an extra couple of sec cast time could be introduced to help players learn the mechanic a little better but the challenge of the fight does make coils worth the effort to clear with a bit of practice

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A shoddy connection isn't the same as a farm party "struggling" with T5. Likewise if you have something "on farm" you aren't going to make multiple mistakes on the same mechanic again and again and again in one session.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

A shoddy connection isn't the same as a farm party "struggling" with T5. Likewise if you have something "on farm" you aren't going to make multiple mistakes on the same mechanic again and again and again in one session.

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As I said due to the lag from regions outside of servers mechanics are always random no matter how skilled you are at the fight dodging mechanics can be the issue of the mistake or mistakes in t5 dive bombs and or twisters .

Players like myself from Australia will understand that connection is never consistent and plays a big part in minor mistakes

Yoshi p also commented on how australian connection due to no ociana region servers does factor into raid and primal dodging to be a bigger challenge to those close to a eu or jp server

Extra cast time tho may limit raid wipe due to region lag
And help players that wish to progress able

I go in always assuming i will lag at some point. After thinking this way i was always prepared for the worst i.e my position update not showing on my screen etc.
Or the whole fight stops then rubberbands = keep playing as if the the game was running as everything u do will still count but just won't show up on ur screen.
Other than tht, yes t5 needs 1 more nerf and thts to take away all the insta kill mechanics and change them to almost dead mechanics / severe damage.

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Originally Posted by NeaturalBomber

As I said due to the lag from regions outside of servers mechanics are always random no matter how skilled you are at the fight dodging mechanics can be the issue of the mistake or mistakes in t5 dive bombs and or twisters .

Players like myself from Australia will understand that connection is never consistent and plays a big part in minor mistakes

Yoshi p also commented on how australian connection due to no ociana region servers does factor into raid and primal dodging to be a bigger challenge to those close to a eu or jp server

Extra cast time tho may limit raid wipe due to region lag
And help players that wish to progress able

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What you are arguing is an issue with server connections not with the inherent difficulty of the fight itself. This still doesn't change the fact that a farm party isn't going to struggle with the fight, that is the fight itself, not the server connection issues your branching into.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

I go in always assuming i will lag at some point. After thinking this way i was always prepared for the worst i.e my position update not showing on my screen etc.
Or the whole fight stops then rubberbands = keep playing as if the the game was running as everything u do will still count but just won't show up on ur screen.
Other than tht, yes t5 needs 1 more nerf and thts to take away all the insta kill mechanics and change them to almost dead mechanics / severe damage.

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Lol yes that can be frustrating ,but that's a large nerf to introduce when a lot of SCoB mechanics are one shot kills . A small but major benefit would just be increase cast times simple easy done and I think will see a lot of progression into SCoB

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

What you are arguing is an issue with server connections not with the inherent difficulty of the fight itself. This still doesn't change the fact that a farm party isn't going to struggle with the fight, that is the fight itself, not the server connection issues your branching into.

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What I'm saying is that the fight difficulty will increase major if connection is the issue which in most cases is the problem why people find the fight so hard . Same as farm party's bad connection due to few sec lag can wipe you on a db or a twister no matter how accurate you are on movement . Predicting when a mechanic is going to strike so you don't wipe your farm party is the challenge itself . So all I'm saying is increase cast time will help in 2 ways . 1 help people learn the mechanic 2 give people with 2sec delay a bit of extra time to dodge to make it playable for others to farm instead of getting carried every fight or a 100 revives (exaggeration) per run

People are still crying about T5?

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Originally Posted by NeaturalBomber

What I'm saying is that the fight difficulty will increase major if connection is the issue which in most cases is the problem why people find the fight so hard . Same as farm party's bad connection due to few sec lag can wipe you on a db or a twister no matter how accurate you are on movement . Predicting when a mechanic is going to strike so you don't wipe your farm party is the challenge itself . So all I'm saying is increase cast time will help in 2 ways . 1 help people learn the mechanic 2 give people with 2sec delay a bit of extra time to dodge to make it playable for others to farm instead of getting carried every fight or a 100 revives (exaggeration) per run

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Increasing the cast time, I don't believe it will have the effect you are hoping for.

I found duty finder and party finder a good way to learn the duty. I didn't clear it with those venues but I got to know how to deal with dive bombs and twisters. I did clear when I managed to get friends who knew the game to play it with me and I was happy to actually contribute to the clear and not be just a carry.

I don't think things need to change. I'm looking forward to Coil 2 becoming a part of duty finder.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Increasing the cast time, I don't believe it will have the effect you are hoping for.

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Probley not but considering most wipes are due to these casts it couldn't hurt to see if it would improve passing rate into SCoB without a major nerf to the fight and seeing players resorting to asking for major nerfing of SCoB

I agree I think increasing the casting time of dive bombs (similar to the dragon im ST) will help greatly. After that everything else is relatively smooth sailing.

Server lag is server lag. Connection lag is connection lag. No one even in second coil parties care because they can see you're disconnecting and teleporting around. Just leave the party and wait until your connection isn't so iffy. No one will judge you for that.

As for divebombs, increasing timers won't change that some people are bad with divebombs because they tunnel vision the snakes and don't pay attention to the field itself anymore.

The markers are there, the Twintania Focus Target meter comes back, everything there to show you to move. If you can't move in time (which even a PS3 user has no issues doing) then you have a 50/50 chance of being blown out into the arena.

Even if you get thrown out there, you can still survive if you know what to do (i.e asking others or looking up what to do).

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Also, if you can't get the Divebomb timers from T5 as is, you'll most likely have trouble with half of second coil. The main big thing sticking out for me being the Nael meteor drops. They are just as quick to screw up as divebombs.

[QUOTE=Ophie-Mio;2576741]Server lag is server lag. Connection lag is connection lag. No one even in second coil parties care because they can see you're disconnecting and teleporting around. Just leave the party and wait until your connection isn't so iffy. No one will judge you for that.


Your argument is irrelevant , clearly you don't play from a ociana point of view otherwise you would realise lag can not be fixed
Also increasing timer will increase pass rate if people have more time to react
Yes there are some that don't figure out mechanics quicker then others , tho those who do and struggle with server lag or are a bit slower to react will have better odds at success
Also they could apply this to second coil later on once the content is outdated or push players on to further content once new content is released

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Originally Posted by myahele

I agree I think increasing the casting time of dive bombs (similar to the dragon im ST) will help greatly. After that everything else is relatively smooth sailing.

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Cast time on divebombs is already long enough. Changing timing is just going to throw off everyone else who is already able to do it and force them to re-learn content over a year old just because a few people have terrible reaction time?

You can have bads go over into the other pit where they won't screw with the rest of the group, and nobody will care if they get hit or die cause it won't mess anyone else up.

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Originally Posted by NeaturalBomber

Your argument is irrelevant , clearly you don't play from a ociana point of view otherwise you would realise lag can not be fixed

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My argument was technically protecting you. It's lag and people tend to either deal with it by kicking someone or trudging through with them or the player leaving. That is the same with everyone regardless of perma-lag or whatever.

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Originally Posted by NeaturalBomber

Also increasing timer will increase pass rate if people have more time to react

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No. My PLD ALWAYS does a call macro for Twintania's divebombs that counts down. From 40 seconds to 5 seconds all with calls. People still get hit. They are ready, they are counting, they can hear the calls. They still get hit. To me, this is tunnel vision on what they are doing or just unable to pay attention. If you can't see it or hear it, turn all the sound down except for sound effects and disable all nameplates and character effects. I did this when I was doing my first clear. It cleared up the screen to have me be able to see.
If you still cannot move in time, then you have problems.

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Originally Posted by NeaturalBomber

Yes there are some that don't figure out mechanics quicker then others , tho those who do and struggle with server lag or are a bit slower to react will have better odds at success
Also they could apply this to second coil later on once the content is outdated or push players on to further content once new content is released

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No. Just no. I had a friend last night who can do any role in Twintania and can normally 1/1 it. He had lag last night. Bad lag. Like wiping us 5 times with his lag. He was perfectly capable and fine for Divebombs BUT terrible for twisters. Server lag with delayed timing on divebombs does not give you any more time to react. You need to know it.

And if you can't do the divebombs cause of server lag, you'll have troubles with the LOS method on T6 and the timing for the acid rain fall. Me dying to acid rain two times because of lag forced me to leave a party because I was such a hindrance to them.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Cast time on divebombs is already long enough. Changing timing is just going to throw off everyone else who is already able to do it and force them to re-learn content over a year old just because a few people have terrible reaction time?

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And because this expresses my point of view on the topic... This. The timing will force players who already know the fight to relearn completely outdated content. I love helping my FC members and random PF peeps with their clears/farming needs. I want everyone to be done with T5...

But if they do actually change the timing for Divebombs, I'm not relearning that portion of the fight. People are just gonna have to do it with people who are more used to that version of it.
If they change it, I won't bother helping ANY of them anymore. I have to consider MY time as well and how I want to spend it considering that I have a full time job and other things pulling at my attention.