We need more ways to make gold in this game.

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

Gil in this game is like OIL in real life. Here comes the analogy, pay close attention ya fools!

1. New players questing is like finding new large OIL deposits.

2. Dungeons/Fates/Leves are like finding small OIL deposits.

3. Vendor trashing items is negligible.

4. AH is like refining OIL to gas but a chunk of the OIL is permanently gone from waste, by-products and energy usage.

5. Teleporting is like you driving you car. Billions of drivers and cars burning up the gas. This takes OIL out of the world.

6. Repair cost is like you buying plastics. The plastics are thrown away. This takes OIL out of the world.

Conclusion: It might take some time but in the end, the WORLD WILL RUN OUT OF OIL.

Also: IMO, this will only make RMT worse. What options does a level 50 player have but to buy Gil just to keep playing their chosen Job?

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This is how intelligent people look at this situation, I like it.

easier to make gil= more gil sellers spamming me, because it takes them no effort to get it. Leave it as it is, imo.

After seeing inflation issues in so many other games, I am rather enjoying the economy in ARR so far. I've not bothered selling much yet, a few items for <1k, but I've made about 100k mostly from progressing through the story/quests. I usually take the Allagan currency option to sell for gil.

Ok,

people still are not grasping the issue here so here is an exercise:


you are no longer a player, you are the Economy as a whole,

put all that quest gil in storage
put all the money made from Market in storage

take 7000 gil (this is now the economy)

go play a day as the average player would, do dungeons, fate grind, leve etc, tp from place to place, pay your repair bills, buy an item or 2 from market..

rules: no sales can be made from 1 player to another, the economy cannot grow in this way, so although as player we can earn money like this, it doesnt represent what the economy can do, and that is the point of this exercise.

now to analyze the results:

do you have more gold than you started with: yes = economic growth
do you have equal (slight increase or decrease): yes = stable economy
do you have noticeably less than you started with: yes = economic decline = big problem

in this exercise you are playing as an average player sure, but your gold is representative of the economy as a whole and this will give you an idea of if your economy is growing/stable or in decline.

personal wealth or transactions between 2 players will never add to the economy its just an indicator of how well the economy is doing, more spending normally means better economy. right now this isnt accurate as there is excess gold via legacy accounts or people levelling to 50, but this isnt stable economic income, its a surge due to the economy being new and levelling generate more gil than an average day at max level, this is just masking the problem, not in anyway alleviating it

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Originally Posted by Firon

I made 200k from doing quest lol too many ppl fate grinding instead of doing quest even tho i already had 2 mil gil from 1.0 i made about 2ook lvling my SCH 1-50 cause i always took the tin silver or gold pieces. Those things should be enough to stimulate any server.

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i only do fates for exp, never money cuz you dont get much, plus i get about 150 seals per fate and thats what i care about, exp and seals..i too only take the silver and gold pieces lol, and thats because i ahvent worked on my leather craft, armorer things yet, but there are plenty of ways to make money in this game, i think people just have to find what works for them in the way of making money thats all

I am going to wait it out for an official response from a developer on this issue. I do believe it is going to be an issue quite soon for the new servers not so much for the old legacy servers at least for now.

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Originally Posted by Nullo

easier to make gil= more gil sellers spamming me, because it takes them no effort to get it. Leave it as it is, imo.

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what.

Gil is hard to make = more gil spammers getting business because people would rather pay for it. Then grind days for It. And the Grind doesn't matter to them because the harder it is to make, The more money they can charge.

Oh, and time doesn't matter to them because bots can't tell time.

You gotta realize the game is still young. Once everybody is able to access the game and the economy stabilizes, I'm sure you can find a niche to make money like in almost every other MMOs. In the beginning of FFXI I farmed Wind Clusters, Logs, Fish, and Stroper Chyme for money. In WoW I mined A LOT. Just have to be patient and see what is in demand.

When you run out of gil then what? the way things currently are will leave everyone poor where the only means of income is to A: make another character and do the quest to generate money B: Farm all day to be able to actually run a dungeon for a couple hours or C: Purchase money from gil sellers who are likely doing A.

Why can`t you just sell items that drop in dungeons? Why the heck are all the items in there UNTRADEABLE?

What the f is the reason behind this.

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Originally Posted by RobinHood

This is how intelligent people look at this situation, I like it.

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Except for the fact that(since you're using oil as an example) new oil is constantly being added. His conclusion is that it would take time for the oil supply to run out. However, in the amount of time that would take(if it even happens), do you think we would be playing in the same setup with the same missions? If I recall correctly SE made all kinds of adjustments in FFXIV 1.x to counter all the inflation. They will probably do the same here if they see an imbalance.

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Originally Posted by D4z3D

You gotta realize the game is still young. Once everybody is able to access the game and the economy stabilizes, I'm sure you can find a niche to make money like in almost every other MMOs. In the beginning of FFXI I farmed Wind Clusters, Logs, Fish, and Stroper Chyme for money. In WoW I mined A LOT. Just have to be patient and see what is in demand.

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Vendoring those items makes nearly nothing. Selling those to other players means they have to be making money to give you money (and even part of that money is lost in the AH), thus no money actually entering the economy. Unless they add more, there is no niche way to effectively bring money into the economy at max level.

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Originally Posted by valhalla

Except for the fact that(since you're using oil as an example) new oil is constantly being added. His conclusion is that it would take time for the oil supply to run out. However, in the amount of time that would take(if it even happens), do you think we would be playing in the same setup with the same missions? If I recall correctly SE made all kinds of adjustments in FFXIV 1.x to counter all the inflation. They will probably do the same here if they see an imbalance.

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Do you know how oil is made?

lol.

In case you missed what i said before as it took a while to post and edit and i dont want it to be missed:

Ok,

people still are not grasping the issue here so here is an exercise:


you are no longer a player, you are the Economy as a whole,

put all that quest gil in storage
put all the money made from Market in storage
all the sellables in your bank in storage

take 7000 gil (this is now representative of the economy after it has stabilized)

go play a day as the average player would, do dungeons, fate grind, leve etc, tp from place to place, pay your repair bills, buy an item or 2 from market..

rules: no sales can be made from 1 player to another, the economy cannot grow in this way, so although as player we can earn money like this, it doesnt represent what the economy can do, and that is the point of this exercise.

now to analyze the results:

do you have more gold than you started with: yes = economic growth
do you have equal (slight increase or decrease): yes = stable economy
do you have noticeably less than you started with: yes = economic decline = big problem

in this exercise you are representing the playerbase as a whole and your gold is representative of the economy as a whole and this will give you an idea of if your economy is growing/stable or in decline.

personal wealth or transactions between 2 players will never add to the economy its just an indicator of how well the economy is doing, more spending normally means better economy. right now this isnt accurate as there is excess gold via legacy accounts or people levelling to 50, but this isnt stable economic income, its a surge due to the economy being new and levelling generate more gil than an average day at max level, this is just masking the problem, not in anyway alleviating it

I understand that people dont want mass inflation, but that doesn't make deflation good. You want a STABLE economy. You want one that well keep gil circulating without letting too much of it disappear or be gained.

If everything deflates and people are unable to afford even things like teleporting, what are we going to do. Limsa will become a complete ghost town because the only way on or off the island is to spend gil. Market board will be empty because nothing is profitable. Why craft when no one wants to by your stuff? Why gather when no one can afford your materials. When the economy is down, it means everyone as a whole is getting poorer.

Just because it is new doesn't mean people don't have foresight or cant read market trends. Some of us do that VERY well and we see where the market is going. Gil sinks exceed gil generation. I can't make it any simpler than that.

Jesus Christ, the amount of people in this thread in earlier pages who simply do not comprehend what the OP is saying astounds me. This has absolutely nothing to do with how much money any one person has at a given time, or how to earn money. This deals with the effects of Gil-removal from the economy as a whole.

Now that I've been 50 for a few days now, this has been an issue I've been concerned about as well. This type of thing doesn't prevent RMT, if it's SE's goal - if anything, it promotes it.

It's a bit early to call and no doubt they are monitoring the influx of gil going in and out of the system. Some here are overstating repair costs and for those who can do their own repairs if you take it down to as low as you feel comfortable that repair still cost only 350gil as opposed to NPC prices. In addition there WILL be people who buy gil and while the average player will not level alts to run the main story to get the roughly 200k in quest money you can bet the RMT will.
If the server fix goes as planned and everyone is logged in an going on their merry way, the RMT will be sneaking around adding millions to the system. As we are currently dealing with an unknown influx of new currency into the system in the form of daily new players they will not be able to make an informed choice on how much new gil to pour into the overall economy.

Once server populations have settled and we see the average amount of RMT gil being generated are calculated they will then likely add daily quests or increase NPC vendor costs etc etc. The main goal is to avoid the 1.0 inflation which was more or less insanity, resulting in everyday items costing hundreds of thousands or more.

Didnt read the whole thread...

Money will be made the old fashion way.. farming.

I can see how it may seem that gil is scarce for the "i already got to 50" crowd. However, you have leveled at such an above the norm pace that you are in front of the inflation curve that hasnt even begun yet.

The cost of vendor items will remain the same as the cost of crafting mats will steadily, indefinitely, continue to increase.

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Originally Posted by DrPancakes

Do you know how oil is made?

lol.

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My point exactly. Unlike oil, gil can be pulled out of thin air and added to the economy with a small bit of work. It can even be profitable if your strategy isn't reckless. Read it again.

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Originally Posted by Gravitron

Didnt read the whole thread...

Money will be made the old fashion way.. farming.

I can see how it may seem that gil is scarce for the "i already got to 50" crowd. However, you have leveled at such an above the norm pace that you are in front of the inflation curve that hasnt even begun yet.

The cost of vendor items will remain the same as the cost of crafting mats will steadily, indefinitely, continue to increase.

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Not the issue.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

Just because it is new doesn't mean people don't have foresight or cant read market trends. Some of us do that VERY well and we see where the market is going. Gil sinks exceed gil generation. I can't make it any simpler than that.

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Sorry, you just haven't made the case. In the OP, it's postulated that you can:
Make 3000gill on leves per pay
Make ~350 per dungeon run
Make 100gill per fate

You will need to spend 1k max per dungeon on repairs.
Raids are capped at 90 min, so they are the same as dungeons.

That's 4.6 dungeon or raids per day to break even. That's 7 hours of dungeons per day to break even. No deflation until you and everyone else on the server exceeds this. Assuming you are doing fates. Plus whatever other dailies they add. It really isn't an issue.

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Originally Posted by Gravitron

Didnt read the whole thread...

Money will be made the old fashion way.. farming.

I can see how it may seem that gil is scarce for the "i already got to 50" crowd. However, you have leveled at such an above the norm pace that you are in front of the inflation curve that hasnt even begun yet.

The cost of vendor items will remain the same as the cost of crafting mats will steadily, indefinitely, continue to increase.

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The problem is what if the grinding cost you more in repairs then you make while grinding. Thats what most ppl are talking about. Run an instance, make 500 gil, repair cost 1000 gil.
I really really dont want to be forced into doing dailies just to run instances or farm fates or craft. Shudders at doing 30+ dailies in wow....

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Originally Posted by GefilteFish

I think an economy with little or no inflation is a good thing honestly. In other games, money becomes meaningless to the point where you don't even think about it.

Don't pay 200k for an item when you hit 50.

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Ye gods.. Econ 101 stuff here. a slow steady amount of inflation is a good thing for a economy. Right now we are looking at deflation. Deflation promotes hording of wealth that lowers the amount of money in the market and slows the sales of goods and services. This is why the US and other large counties no longer use a "Gold Standard" or similar at some point you end up not being able to buy things simple because there no way to get enough currency to complete transactions (Note this would take a very long time in a MMO but it would happen.) cont on next post due to chr limit

This could be alleviated somewhat if SE actually made crafted gear somewhat relevant. As it stands now, you are better off farming darklight then attempting to get the Heavy Darksteel/Vanya/Gryphon stuff made as its so ridiculously cost prohibitive that nobody will actually make the stuff due to the 9 coke/what have you from Rowena.

As it stands now, crafting realistically stops at the 1 * level. This means that even stuff from rare nodes like Darksteel ore and Crawler Cocoon aren't commanding the money they should. This then has the effect of impacting the whole crafting system all the way down to the bottom which then directly hurts miners, botanists and fisherman. Add that to the vast amount of gil sinks in the game and we have a economy that doesn't/can't sustain itself.

Back in 1.0, Materia and materia slotted gear dictated market prices for goods. Since well made double or triple melded gear could rival or even surpass Darklight pieces, people were constantly maneuvering to acquire materia, ore to craft the gear, +1 items to try for a HQ which in turn boosted materia slotting percentages. Heck, even regular quality gear 40+ was snatched up in an attempt to convert to tier IV materia. Now with materia being foolproof to meld and capping out beyond a certain point, most people will just forgo all this for dungeon drops. 1.2x wasn't as tiered as 2.0 is. You could mix and match and try to min/max with a variety of set-ups that utilized GC gear, Darklight Gear, Materia Melded Gear and even AF. Since this horizontal progression doesn't exist anymore, we feel it on the markets.

What FFXI did wrong (at least when I played) was that high end crafters and the goods they created literally controlled the market top to bottom (RMT not withstanding). 2.0 on the other hand strays to far into the other direction making crafting negligible. 1.2x I believe had the perfect balance between the two. Yeah it was a lottery game with regards to melding, but it kept everything moving.

It's a shame that most people don't research on how to repair their equipment as cheap as possible at level 50. The economy is a gil sink currently. However once everyone knows how to repair their equipment efficiently, the gil sink would be a lot smaller. People can walk to their destination to save a couple of gil with the worst route being between Limsa and Ul'dah if you want to avoid paying the ferries. That only leaves market tax and people who doesn't have the patience to walk.

Right now Quests are the only way to be cash positive and each chr has a hard limit on how many quests they can do ever every thing you swing your sword/ax/book or use the marketplace a little more gill gets sucked out permanently out of the world. Right now playing the markets in a way to move gill from other people to you but its a ponzi scheme unless there is a exponential in flux of new chr they system will fall apart. Now I know SE is not stupid and any MMO has one or more economists on the design team just for the very reason hopefully the person is also seeing these threads. Now hyper inflation what i understand 1.0 had is also a bad thing right now i have a feeling we are suffering from an over correction of that mistake Legacy Servers have users with money bins of gill while 2.0 players are just watching there balance plummet. CONT ON NEXT POST DUE TO CHR LIMIT.

One other possible solution is for side quests to have a recycle time something like 45 days where they reset and can be done again. This also allows people who want to level multiple magic/war classes to avoid having to level by fate grinding alone. Also on a side note Dark mater is WAY overpriced you have to wear your gear below 70% or so before its a cost savings not counting the investment of leveling the trade skill in the first place and that most likely any end game class would need 3-4 + level 50 trade skills to repair all of there gear and the gear of the trade skill classes.

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Originally Posted by valhalla

My point exactly. Unlike oil, gil can be pulled out of thin air and added to the economy with a small bit of work. It can even be profitable if your strategy isn't reckless.

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The problem that this entire thread is about is that the Cost > Profit. Which results in a net loss across the board at level 50. And if the entire server is taking a net loss overall then Gil will run out.

So that small bit of work costs more Gil than the work profits. Or that the net gains are so negligible that it wont make a difference in the grand scheme.

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Originally Posted by GefilteFish

Sorry, you just haven't made the case. In the OP, it's postulated that you can:
Make 3000gill on leves per pay
Make ~350 per dungeon run
Make 100gill per fate

You will need to spend 1k max per dungeon on repairs.
Raids are capped at 90 min, so they are the same as dungeons.

That's 4.6 dungeon or raids per day to break even. That's 7 hours of dungeons per day to break even. No deflation until you and everyone else on the server exceeds this. Assuming you are doing fates. Plus whatever other dailies they add. It really isn't an issue.

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So every dungeon run, you make 350 and lose 1k
You have to do 10 fates to make that 1k repair bill...which will likely give you a 1k repair bill in the process.
3k from leves, minus the repair from doing the leves. Let's pretend that's also 1k.

so lets say you do 1 dungeon, 10 fates and 6 leves in a day. That's 3k or less in reapirs (sink) while making 5k (generated). So you break at about 2k profit without counting travel (airships, ferries, teleports), taxes (gil lost from buying/selling on market), and the other misc junk you do. Not to mention that doing a dungeon more than once puts you in the whole EVEN MORE.

So...I don't understand what you are saying....

I had this realization around level 30. :( I think they should only raise it very slightly. If they doubled rewards, it would cause inflation. I am sure they're monitoring this though. Every MMO team I have seen has an economist on it, and an economist will be able to tell you just how much inflation/deflation there will be. There's no way this economy is collapsing.

P.S. - How much do random crappy items vendor for at 50? I haven't vendored most of my gear because I am saving them to level other classes.

Not sure if this has been brought up yet, but having read the first 50 posts i'm surprised that the OP hadn't come to the realization that there are a lot more gil generating activities than she may well be aware of. For example, not once did i see leves brought up. The level 45 goldsmithing leves in uldah require you to craft and turn in Electrum Circlets (Amber) to an npc and as a reward you get 33K exp, 750gil and 6 electrum ores. As a miner, I gather my own electrum and amber and craft them into circlets. Turning each circlet in takes the item out of the game in exchange for 750 gil. This is just one gil generating activity you have neglected to take note of. As a bonus these crafting leves take items out of the economy which should help to curb the supply of raw materials, components, and end products in the economy.

So can someone remind me how this was avoided or remedied in 1.0? I don't remember there ever being any show stoppers. Reading through all the posts, one might think the FFXIV apocalypse was coming.

Less money = your money is worth more.

I'd rather the economy not get out of hand so people can charge out the ying-yang for stuff like in other mmos. It pushes the new player base way out of the game because they just bought it and they would have to spend 2 years farming for 1 item. I like the fact that your gil amount will be low as my gil will be worth more. If you don't want your money to get a market cut, then dont put it on the market.

thats all it means. people will make money if they really love it that much, not that there is very much use for it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Matsume

Not sure if this has been brought up yet, but having read the first 50 posts i'm surprised that the OP hadn't come to the realization that there are a lot more gil generating activities than she may well be aware of. For example, not once did i see leves brought up.

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It was brought up, several times, but since it's limited , it's not really enough if you are spending 2-5k on repairs from doing some end game events.

What about the amount of gil/time you put in to getting your gathering/crafting up that high. The repairs you spend mining and crafting, that gear has to be repaired too.

You also have to take in to account that a good portion of the DoW/DoM players don't have the time to level a gathering/crafting class just to turn in a leve which only rewards 750 gil. Not to mention leves aren't infinite either, eventually you will be stuck with 6 leves a day and 4500 gil from that won't cover anything.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

-snip-

so lets say you do 1 dungeon, 10 fates and 6 leves in a day. That's 3k or less in reapirs (sink) while making 5k (generated). So you break at about 2k profit without counting travel (airships, ferries, teleports), taxes (gil lost from buying/selling on market), and the other misc junk you do. Not to mention that doing a dungeon more than once puts you in the whole EVEN MORE.

So...I don't understand what you are saying....

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So everyone can make 2k a day... even though I think your repair costs are exaggerated. Plus there are cheaper ways to repair than a vendor, as was explained earlier in this thread. Plus raids might give you more per run than dungeons.

That's inflation, not deflation. It's just not at the same rate you're used to in WoW.

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Originally Posted by Matsume

snip

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Here is the problem though they need to accommodate the players that will never gather, craft or ever do either of them. WoW has this fix by having dailies in the game that turn into money for you and enough can be done each day to keep the player going every day to do what they find fun. Also they need to lower the repair costs.

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Originally Posted by DrPancakes

The problem that this entire thread is about is that the Cost > Profit. Which results in a net loss across the board at level 50. And if the entire server is taking a net loss overall then Gil will run out.

So that small bit of work costs more Gil than the work profits. Or that the net gains are so negligible that it wont make a difference in the grand scheme.

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I get that. Players spending more than they're earning will go broke. But they will still have the option to balance out their character with a job. Just like real life.

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Originally Posted by GefilteFish

So everyone can make 2k a day... even though I think your repair costs are exaggerated. Plus there are cheaper ways to repair than a vendor, as was explained earlier in this thread. Plus raids might give you more per run than dungeons.

That's inflation, not deflation. It's just not at the same rate you're used to in WoW.

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That's 2k a day without tacking on transportation and taxes and only doing 1 dungeon a day. Repair costs are far from exaggerated. Using the numbers you quote even, you make 350 gil a dungeon run, but it costs 1k gil to reapir after. You can't deny such simple math. Cheaper methods of repair aren't that much cheaper and involve a lot of spending before if nets you small profits. And no, raid don't give you any more than dungeons in relation to repairs.

I understand what a small inflation is. I encourage and want it. I do not support deflation though. I want a stable economy and that's not what we are gearing toward at the moment.

Also, I've honestly never played WoW, I don't get where you've assumed I have from.

There does need to be a way for gil to flow into the economy. At least so far, i've been getting my gil from quests which is nice, but once the quests stop, I'll be doing levequests and I really don't want to be hamstrung to dailies. auction house, teleports are pretty effective money sinks right now, but we don't have a real effective way to generate it in the world as far as i've played. I understand they don't want gil farmers to get an edge. At the end game I'll probably start doing some gathering stuff to earn gil in the market. But i'm still unsure how the macro economy is going to handle a situation where there seems to be greater gil sinks than actual gil flow.