Stop the Grind-to-the-Endgame madness!

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

I don't really care how progression is done as long as it doesn't feel like I'm grinding to get more content. I'd rather level up while doing content at my own level.

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Low and mid-level content is the answer. Yes, you're right.

I also agree that it doesn't matter if we are grinding or questing, even though people that read my OP title might be surprised that I lean towards the grind.

As I said before, I'm not against grinding to level. Actually, I enjoyed doing that in FFXI. What I meant to write against was the idea of desperately grinding towards the only significant and gratifying content, which right now is the so-called "Endgame." Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

The game should not be Endgame heavy, and should validate the path as much as the destination.

R

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Originally Posted by Grimwald

I think there should be more content for lower levels, or at least content that doesn't require having certain jobs at 50. For instance, casinos (like the possible golden saucer style place in 2.0) and a few more lower level dungeons would be a good start.

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If they remove power leveling sure. If not, low-mid level content is pointless since you spend all of 2 hours in those level ranges.

Yes that's an exaggeration but you blow past low level content like it's nobody's business in XIV, remember Shposhae? Yeah exactly. No point going to it when you can power level through those levels.

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Originally Posted by Tigercub

I wish I could 'Like' the OP one bajillion times.
I literally have stopped playing several times because I thought leveling in 2.0 might be more fun, and I should save the experience for when it comes out. When I found out they were just going to speed it up and make it an endgame fest, seriously /disappointed.

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Exactly my point.

Slow the leveling process, give us plenty of low-level and mid-level content.

As I've clarified above, I wasn't writing against grinding as a mechanism to level. As a matter of fact, I like leveling through grinding. What I was trying to position myself against was the idea of a game that seems to be about to become a rat race to the end. I think accelerating the grind--and making the game end-game heavy--only stultifies it, and will render it boring and perfunctory.

Give us a path, not only a destination.

R

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Originally Posted by Elexia

If they remove power leveling sure. If not, low-mid level content is pointless since you spend all of 2 hours in those level ranges.

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I concur.

R

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Originally Posted by Elexia

If they remove power leveling sure. If not, low-mid level content is pointless since you spend all of 2 hours in those level ranges.

Yes that's an exaggeration but you blow past low level content like it's nobody's business in XIV, remember Shposhae? Yeah exactly. No point going to it when you can power level through those levels.

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I disagree.

No matter how many exploits you will attempt to plug, the players who are obsessed with progress will always find an exploit. Manaburns, Arrow Burns, TP Burns, Astral Burns, are all evidence to this from FFXI.

Conversely, Power-Levling is not a common practice even with it as easily available as it is here in FFXIV.

The speed of leveling is not the problem - it is the long term reward for content is. Think back to Chains of Promithia, how many people still do ENMs? How many people REMEMBER all the ENMs? Or BCNMs? The only ones that are recalled are the ones with rewards that benefit high level players. The span of how quickly or how long it takes to reach that level doesn't matter.

It does not really matter how you slice it - without flat out removing levels there is going to be content that is overlooked unless you make it relevant to endgame players. Period. If it is relevant to endgame players, the level the content is introduced is irrelevant. Therefore the solution is to make low to mid level content significant to endgame players. Then you make it so that low and high level players can play side by side in this content, and you have a system that kills the absolute rush to endgame.

The leveling speed is completely, and utterly irrelevant to the solution. The accessibility and significance of low and midgame content to higher level players is.

I'm sorry. I understand the concept of going on a journey and working to be better is significant to you. But Leveling is not the only means in which this feeling can be established. Slowing down leveling, however, does significantly slow down accessibility for players to play together, because those at endgame will have endgame concerns, and those who are leveling up will only have leveling up concerns.

Without bringing these two together, we will play together less, unless you force people to play together by choking out solo content. The point of this game is to play together. So the solution to that must make it so that players are enticed, rather than forced, to play along. If you make it forced, by dragging along the leveling span, we will bleed players like water from a broken dam.

If you make content profitable and accessible to everyone, then the leveling span is insignificant, you're growing into a stronger character/player by gaining real experience adventuring. Sad that the solution is so binary, but the problems here are that severe.

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Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX

I have been playing the game since beta to date..... So yes i have been following the game, i was not impressed with the waste of resources on "Seasonal events" that added little to no lore, or the spamfest that beastman camps are, really there is little to no strategy to them other than "Zerg everything till it dies", wish was ok back then since the game needed content in any shape or form, but is been 2 full years, the excuse of 2.0 is irrelevant since they can add content at cap level, but not in mid or lower level ? really ? yet they do a welcome back campaign.... smart move there yoshi.

Also the party search function, that was something i was really exited about, until i saw it and then i was like ..... wow really ? this is nothing like any LFG tool in any MMO, it is so.... backward and better yet utterly useless..... yeah if something as important as that is delivered in such conditions what excuse is there ? None at all really.

Oh and i never said i have no faith in him, just not blind faith as some people have, wish is ok as long as like religion, they don't try to shove it down my throat, do i have my doubts ? Yes, are they well founded ? In my opinion they are, not to you ? Cool, but there is really no reason for attacks as childish as "Well if you dont like it leave" lol

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Its not childish at all, its the truth. Its one thing to say that you don't like something or that you are worried about this or that -- but you seem to have a definite pessimism about the game and the direction it is headed.

Anyway, they have actually added a bunch of stuff to the lower-mid tier. Jobs and all of their associated AF/Spell quests are mid level content. There's a Shoposhae, Totorak, quests for ifrit, grand companies, and the Chocobo, that's in addition to a ton of other side quests. They've also made numerous "quality of life" improvements to the level up game such as exp chains and the reshuffling of abilities.

Yes they've added a lot more to the "end game" but that makes sense since that is where the vast majority of the playerbase is. Likewise, when people do complete this stuff its almost never at an appropriate level because they just use their 50s to steam roll on through it.

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

Low and mid-level content is the answer. Yes, you're right.

I also agree that it doesn't matter if we are grinding or questing, even though people that read my OP title might be surprised that I lean towards the grind.

As I said before, I'm not against grinding to level. Actually, I enjoyed doing that in FFXI. What I meant to write against was the idea of desperately grinding towards the only significant and gratifying content, which right now is the so-called "Endgame." Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

The game should not be Endgame heavy, and should validate the path as much as the destination.

R

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The problem is that you regard the level cap as some sort of finale, as if people just get to the cap, the credits roll and the journey stops -- that is not at all what happens. Even in FFXI people would spend months going from 1-75 and years at level 75. That is why a game has to be "endgame" heavy.

The key is to have good progression at the level cap. I think its one thing that vanilla WOW did fantastically well. You'd reach the level cap and then you'd progress from 5/10man dungeons to the beginner raids. Once your guild had conquered the 4 beginning raids you could progress to the mid level and finally to Naxx. FFXI had a similar thing, though it was less defined.

I'm not saying that 1-50 shouldn't be fun, I just don't think that the two need to be equally balanced in content.

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Originally Posted by Gentaro

How would such a system work if you have 7 Classes to level, but only one set of quest that probably won't last for 350 level ^^

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I'd create as many class-specific quests as possible. So say you're in Hyrstmill. As a MRD/WAR you see one aspect/story of hyrstmill. As a GLA/PLD you see a different story involving hyrstmill. As an ARC/BRD you see yet another story involving hyrstmill. And so on. You could then have some quests make references to the other quest lines as a way to entice the player to change classes later and do that quest line to see how it all fits.

It's not kind on resources and whatnot, but it's an idea.

I agree with the majority.

I really wish getting to 50 was slower, even if there's not enough content and a little grinding is required.

The part I enjoy the most in RPG's is to develop a character. I'm failry casual and I had all DoW/DoM at 50 in May 2011, which isn't normal.

I even have nostalgia of failing leves since that actually made my character grow. I don't have any nostalgia for spamming Ifrit for months though.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I disagree.

No matter how many exploits you will attempt to plug, the players who are obsessed with progress will always find an exploit. Manaburns, Arrow Burns, TP Burns, Astral Burns, are all evidence to this from FFXI.

Conversely, Power-Levling is not a common practice even with it as easily available as it is here in FFXIV.

The speed of leveling is not the problem - it is the long term reward for content is. Think back to Chains of Promithia, how many people still do ENMs? How many people REMEMBER all the ENMs? Or BCNMs? The only ones that are recalled are the ones with rewards that benefit high level players. The span of how quickly or how long it takes to reach that level doesn't matter.

It does not really matter how you slice it - without flat out removing levels there is going to be content that is overlooked unless you make it relevant to endgame players. Period. If it is relevant to endgame players, the level the content is introduced is irrelevant. Therefore the solution is to make low to mid level content significant to endgame players. Then you make it so that low and high level players can play side by side in this content, and you have a system that kills the absolute rush to endgame.

The leveling speed is completely, and utterly irrelevant to the solution. The accessibility and significance of low and midgame content to higher level players is.

I'm sorry. I understand the concept of going on a journey and working to be better is significant to you. But Leveling is not the only means in which this feeling can be established. Slowing down leveling, however, does significantly slow down accessibility for players to play together, because those at endgame will have endgame concerns, and those who are leveling up will only have leveling up concerns.

Without bringing these two together, we will play together less, unless you force people to play together by choking out solo content. The point of this game is to play together. So the solution to that must make it so that players are enticed, rather than forced, to play along. If you make it forced, by dragging along the leveling span, we will bleed players like water from a broken dam.

If you make content profitable and accessible to everyone, then the leveling span is insignificant, you're growing into a stronger character/player by gaining real experience adventuring. Sad that the solution is so binary, but the problems here are that severe.

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I would like to entreat you to entertain conjecture of this:

A serious array of content at different levels of the game, all of them capped, and with auto level-sync features enabled. All of this content grants relevant gear that doesn't become obsolete (perhaps because it scales its stats as you advance in level). Make it difficult to obtain (I am not saying statistically impossible, mind you), but also make the content grant tangential rewards that, on their own, justify the time and energy expenditure on said content. Do this through organic planning that goes beyond the current level cap for the game, so that you don't find yourself constantly superseding items that were granted in past content. Or if you can't totally do this, at least keep revising the stats of the old gear, so that it never loses its viability in game.

I totally agree with the statement in which you affirm:

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Therefore the solution is to make low to mid level content significant to endgame players. Then you make it so that low and high level players can play side by side in this content, and you have a system that kills the absolute rush to endgame.

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If this is a puzzle for the developers, then it's one totally worth their time to try to solve.

What I don't agree with is this:

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Therefore the solution is to make low to mid level content significant to endgame players. Then you make it so that low and high level players can play side by side in this content, and you have a system that kills the absolute rush to endgame.

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It's my opinion that speed has less to do with the fact that end-game-level players refuse to look back on past content, than with the fact that celerity of leveling makes the process feel perfunctory, almost unnecessary, and ultimately boring. It also tends to burn the real end-game content quickly, since the population gets to it too easily, and bores of it as fast. Then, the only solution is to add more content. This is not bad, but it ends up producing a game along the lines of World of Warcraft which, for all its virtues, felt de-centered, disperse, almost to distraction, and with a fundamental lack of connection--even worse, connectivity--between all its disparate parts. People moved away from the previous expansion and never took another look at it, because it fell passeé, superseded.

R

Another aspect that I somehow lament, is the automatic granting of skills and spells, just on reaching some level. Somehow, the whole thing felt more organic when you had to quest, and toil, for your new abilities, once you reached the level.

Still, one more interesting addition to character growth would be to re-design something along the lines of FFXI Skill Levels, only this time not linked to spamming of actions, but rather to in-combat, in-party (ideally in-skillchain) use of the corresponding actions. That would certainly add some incentive to partying.

R

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

It does not really matter how you slice it - without flat out removing levels there is going to be content that is overlooked unless you make it relevant to endgame players. Period. If it is relevant to endgame players, the level the content is introduced is irrelevant.

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Someone finally said the extreme yet reasonable. ...I'd love to remove levels as long as there are different ways to progress the character (gear/a reformed materia system/making one's own abilities/world-story/plots/NPC relationships/a vast number of other things that have no definitive place in 'levels' except to milestone that system, which is otherwise unneeded).

I don't see why every game has to try to poorly sum up all manners of progression in power (at least until endgame) into these clunky tiers.

That said, any progression of other sorts, when increasing stats more than complexity (and therefore skill-gap), will run into the same problem, even if less obviously or severely. But at the same time, the solution (a higher "level" being a higher grade of player who's able to take more advantage of his skill, not by stats but by increased skill-gap or tools of that sort) already sends development in the direction of better character development.

**Though it's not a major part of what I was saying earlier, let me address the idea of highest "levels" (combat power, really; though highest tiers can be found in plenty of other categories...) only being for elite players, a bit of a slippery slope off what I said above.

I honestly don't see a problem with this. If they became the elite of the game, they did so by playing elite-ly. That playstyle is not going to be appealing to others, or they'd already be playing that way, just how they enjoy it. Meanwhile those who prefer doing things besides pouring their efforts and skill into combat, can do that. Or both.

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

Still, one more interesting addition to character growth would be to re-design something along the lines of FFXI Skill Levels, only this time not linked to spamming of actions, but rather to in-combat, in-party (ideally in-skillchain) use of the corresponding actions. That would certainly add some incentive to partying.

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It will add fun, sure, but the "incentive" by any other view already exist. There's no xp-splitting here. Do leves alone or do them with 6 other people -- same xp, at near player-multiple the speed. With rested xp, I've done 40-42 in around 18 minutes. Just have 8 leves for the area, and the highest difficulty you can get xp out of.

I guess I'm speaking a bit satirically though. I agree that fun should be the prime incentive in such choices - not there being something brokenly easy way to gain xp or the like. I just wish it was more often that people would look for their incentives in how actually enjoyable the process is.

<--I usually prefer to level solo. I'll often enjoy leveling with friends, but the hecticness and lack of ingenuity in party-play (especially given how well my current main, a Pugilist, can solo) burns me out quickly. When things die so fast, I feel like I'm fighting just to be useful, even if we're fighting enemies 4 to 6 levels above our own.

As far as skill, growth, and the development of players. I feel as if we're missing an important component in our information, which is Battle Regimine.

I can't comment on what the course of combat and character development of the game will be until we have info on this rather critical element of party combat. It could make all the difference if we have to quest for skills that becomes part of the powerful battle regimes. Which means you would have to gradually develop your character for party play and that party play would become more in depth.

But without any info, that's just wild speculation.

August cannot come soon enough.

l o l
thread

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

I would like to entreat you to entertain conjecture of this:

A serious array of content at different levels of the game, all of them capped, and with auto level-sync features enabled. All of this content grants relevant gear that doesn't become obsolete (perhaps because it scales its stats as you advance in level). Make it difficult to obtain (I am not saying statistically impossible, mind you), but also make the content grant tangential rewards that, on their own, justify the time and energy expenditure on said content. Do this through organic planning that goes beyond the current level cap for the game, so that you don't find yourself constantly superseding items that were granted in past content. Or if you can't totally do this, at least keep revising the stats of the old gear, so that it never loses its viability in game.

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This. I would love to a system that can auto-sync difficulty. As for gear, how about this simple option: you wear what you want to wear, and level the gear to your liking (within the limits of the gear) as you go. Some sets are more adaptable, other able to further push specifics, like AF gear into class-specific bonuses or primal gear into an encapsulating element. Realistically, a well made light leather jerkin will serve some style of play just as well as a legendary full-plate serves a raid tank.

The only issue after that is insuring that crafting remains a part through more than just repairing, without requiring it to level the gear. Really, you should be able to take a leather jerkin, eventually add rivets to make it studded leather, band it over with metal (banded leather) or attach scales (scale mail). These general armor-type differences should change how it levels, with a varying immediate change in stat composition (generally on a small change unless changes to the armor are drastic, playing off old stats to a new purpose) and then new lines of growth. "Attire" or "gestalt" composition of your gear should do likewise. Playing on components, with the ability to level something tangentially in common between all of the parts, or keeping them separate so they can be more fine-tuned to mixing and matching with other sets instead of to this one set. Materia then, really is essentially your leveling experience with that gear.

(I'm sure I'm missing a lot; this is going really quickly through my head.)

All that's left after that is how well you want stats to be usable for at least some playstyle of any class. Is it really such a bad idea to have a Lancer who wears a cloak, who uses high Mind to increase the blast radius of abilities like Impulse Drive and the effect of his Surges, intellect to increase the critical rating bonuses on Vorpal and Impulse, or in a random different combat system example, something like casting fire magic onto one enemy only to skewer it through the enemies behind him on an en-galed Lance. Any kind of stats should be useful to someone. Armor type, though getting even rarer between the two on an oddball class playstyle, as well.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

As far as skill, growth, and the development of players. I feel as if we're missing an important component in our information, which is Battle Regimine.

I can't comment on what the course of combat and character development of the game will be until we have info on this rather critical element of party combat. It could make all the difference if we have to quest for skills that becomes part of the powerful battle regimes. Which means you would have to gradually develop your character for party play and that party play would become more in depth.

But without any info, that's just wild speculation.

August cannot come soon enough.

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It's not wild speculation, but rather pre-emptive speculation I am trying to do here.

Many people (not saying you) prefer to stay in a blissful state of hopefulness, immersed in wishful thinking, hoping that the devs will deliver what they want; they feel that any posting here that tries to make sure we're all on the same page, and that tries to elicit a conversation for the community to speak up its mind before it is too late for changes, is just bursting their bubbles.

Assuming that what perhaps might happen WILL happen is wild speculation in its own right.

R

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

It's not wild speculation, but rather pre-emptive speculation I am trying to do here.

Many people (not saying you) prefer to stay in a blissful state of hopefulness, immersed in wishful thinking, hoping that the devs will deliver what they want; they feel that any posting here that tries to make sure we're all on the same page, and that tries to elicit a conversation for the community to speak up its mind before it is too late for changes, is just bursting their bubbles.

Assuming that what perhaps might happen WILL happen is wild speculation in its own right.

R

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The same argument could be said by trying to preempt concerns this late in the development cycle. A lot of what you're talking about would require, as I staid before, sweeping changes to the entire system. If you are saying you are not liking what you have been hearing, that is one thing. But demanding it changed before even trying it is another.

I would describe myself in a state of suspense. I am waiting for information to truly speculate upon and an actual experience in 2.0 to give constructive feedback for.

I know it won't be perfect, I know there will be parts of the game I'm flat out not interested in and I'll state what will make me interested in it.


But as far as the general subject of grinding. We have two types of 'progression' typical in RPGs, especially MMORPGS. We've the level grind, and the gear grind. This game is much more about the gear grind than it is about the level grind, which is a good idea, considering most successful games right now are realizing that the level grind is simply not sitting well with the bulk of players these days. People like to have their full skillset to play with, and would rather improve through practice, than be carted around having multiple training wheels slowly being taken off as you go along.

It's why skillset games like League of Legends are becoming more and more popular, though that is a different genere.

We can acclimate some ideas of 'training to be good' by making quest chains for specific abilities (heck, even make us choose between training for one ability or another to further specialize.) But I really don't see FFXI's grind being a feasible mechanic here.

Again, I don't have enough info on the actual pacing of 2.0's leveling to judge. "Faster" by Yoshida's perspective may not be faster for us, who take every advantage we can get.

I would love to know why everyone is so against a slower leveling pace akin to FFXI. Correct me if I'm wrong but FFXI still has a much larger population and imo FFXIV would have a population similar if they had simply taken the "Archaic" Mechanics that the new ADHD players don't want and put them into this game. I know that SE was going for a larger player-base but realistically they could at least get the amount of subs that FFXI had or close to if they had not gone the ADHD route for this game and you can argue that its not current MMO mechanics but i think what most of us wanted was an FF MMO not necessarily a "Current" MMO. Sorry thats my 2 cents.

You had me at

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Fill the world with one thousand Shposhae

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:~

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Originally Posted by Reyko

I would love to know why everyone is so against a slower leveling pace akin to FFXI. Correct me if I'm wrong but FFXI still has a much larger population and imo FFXIV would have a population similar if they had simply taken the "Archaic" Mechanics that the new ADHD players don't want and put them into this game. I know that SE was going for a larger player-base but realistically they could at least get the amount of subs that FFXI had or close to if they had not gone the ADHD route for this game and you can argue that its not current MMO mechanics but i think what most of us wanted was an FF MMO not necessarily a "Current" MMO. Sorry thats my 2 cents.

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You're arguing on a matter of personal preference, and assuming your stance is a majority.

Final Fantasy is a subjective experience to begin with. In fact, a defining factor of Final Fantasy is that it's numerals differ from one another with each iteration. A person who likes six, might not like seven, might like eight, might think two was dumb, etc. But the point of the matter is, no system was a duplication of the other.

So why are FFXI romanticists insistent in forcing such a thing? The answer is personal preference. My issue against them is - they're not looking for alternatives. They want leveling slow to the point of exhaustion to others and they fail to acknowledge the reasons why that would be considered a bad mechanic by their intellectual opponents - even though I've listed the primary reason as plain as I possibly could.

There are other means of progression the Developers could instill in this game that does not enforce a sense of separation in the base.

There are other means of creating a sense of journey and development without attaching it to some arbitrary number system.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

So why are FFXI romanticists insistent in forcing.

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The same reason you "WoW Romanticists" are forcing your ideals on everyone? If "FFXI romanticists" aren't allowed to force ideals (even though they aren't) why can the other side force ideals?

It's fine to dislike FFXI, but be real here.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

The same reason you "WoW Romanticists" are forcing your ideals on everyone? If "FFXI romanticists" aren't allowed to force ideals (even though they aren't) why can the other side force ideals?

It's fine to dislike FFXI, but be real here.

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I never understand people's logic on "WoW clone", its setup became a standard for the genre itself. Would you say that other RPG's are clones of Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest because they use a similar interface? "Ohh this game is a turned based battle system? Its obviously a FF clone.". Chrono Trigger use the same ATB gauge system as FFIV and still considered one of the greatest RPG's of all time. Sure created by the same company, but it's RPG concepts are not completely original, interface wise. What truly makes a game of that genre good is creating your own unique twist to it. Bring people in with the sense of familiarity, and then "BAM!", give them something original feeling.

Chrono Trigger used basic RPG concepts and interface, what made it unique was it's Dual/Triple Tech system and it's time travel method on conveying a story, not to mention multiple endings and new game+. I believe FFXIV 2.0 is the same way. MMO players will come in with that sense of familiarity, then SE will slap something at them that makes the game unique compared to other MMO's. Can compare it to FPS's also, they all use the same/similar interface, but its what they bring in the game's concepts that makes it unique. Bioshock was able to use basic FPS UI concepts, and at the same time, made a very original feeling game.

FFXI purist do need to realize, while it was a great game at it's time, a lot of it's concepts are outdated and will never bring in it's large audience. SE aims at getting the big audience, not just a niche audience like FFXI. The common MMO player does not want to grind on the same monster all day, they want a fun way of progressing their character. The best solution I see to this is questing.

Funny thing is, the "common player" are also tired of grinding on boring quests all day.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

The same reason you "WoW Romanticists" are forcing your ideals on everyone? If "FFXI romanticists" aren't allowed to force ideals (even though they aren't) why can the other side force ideals?

It's fine to dislike FFXI, but be real here.

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I am being real. Compromise is the solution here, one you're refuting wholesale.

Secondary, I am not a WoW Player, nor do I appeal to it. However, even if FFXI is Square Enix's most profitable game, those profits dwarfed to inconsequential size by the success of WoW, which you seem to be venomously disapproving of.

If we are to be truely netural here, you need to first acknolege that WoW beats FFXI by an approximate factor of twenty four in terms of peak subscriptions. That is not something you ignore because you have a preference to a personal memory. That is when you sit up straight and look at seriously at the differences.

Even ignoring WoW, SWTOR, Rift, Aion, Tera: Their initial subscriptions alone doubled our highest number in FFXI at its peak. Guild Wars 2 is poised to do the same. Yet you scoff at these titles. Even as many of them drop large numbers of subscriptions, they're still pulling higher numbers than FFXI is currently.

You tote around that sign, but I don't believe you follow its lesson.

It is time to stop with the accusatory tones and work towards solutions that appeal to a wide base, not a niche audience. That means putting down the pitchforks and torches saying that the world will burn if leveling is faster than what you want it to be, and start working on other ways that would make content attractive, especially throughout the level span.

Personally, rather than sit and try to stretch out the content by enforcing areas with level caps. I'd rather see them simply add more depth and replay-ability to content and have it be widely accessible.

There are many paths to go about this at variable level speeds. But FFXI is a very, very poor example of good leveling speed. They continually, constantly tried to improve the system and the playerbase was never satisfied with it until after the fact, on the outside looking in. They tend to forget the six hours shouting for a party outside Quifim, or the entire day's worth of XP lost due to a train at Selbina entrance. They overlook the Princess RDMs and BRDs, and the fact that WHM's got pretty much forced out of XP/Merit parties for the duration of an entire expansion.

There are so many incredible flaws in making a stretched out leveling system that do not need to be in this game, and FFXI embodied many of them.

That is not to say that FFXIV's leveling speed needs to be lightening quick. But keep in mind this is a multiple-job system so if it's going to be similar to other MMOs on the market, the leveling speed does have to be a tad faster than those, if Yoshi is to encourage players to play multiple classes per character.

Idealy, the quest and storyline content should support this, so that the player does not feel either rushed nor pushed down. That's a delicate balance to create - one that we will NOT be able to properly measure sitting here on the forums complaining at each other. Especially given everyone's differing playstyles.

Now I've already listed several alternatives, from an optional XP trade for a differing currency, to quested skills, to level-capped dungeons. (And to add an alternative to that, instead of level capping, how about damage capping? So that those of higher level can still use their full skillset, but the effectiveness of those skills is reduced to compensate for the difference.)

I'd like it if you'd attempt to meet me halfway here and come of with a few ideas that would satisfy more than your own ideal.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Funny thing is, the "common player" are also tired of grinding on boring quests all day.

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True enough, but as you cans see, other companies have taken new approaches to the quest grinding system. Star Wars comes to mind on this. They focused heavily on making a great leveling experience by giving you an engaging story the whole way to 50. Which to me worked. Unfortunately the game suffered by lacking in the "MMO" portion of an MMORPG".

From what is said in interviews. Main quests will semi-link in with the general quests done along the way towards it. This is progression done right. Start of with exciting action, then go through your calm phase in preparation for the next action phase. Actually, it is explained well in this video.

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/episode-07-pacing

Basically, good progression is making a balance between the very exciting and calm phases. Progressing the main storyline being the exciting portion, then taking on smaller quests in the calm phase.

Will this work out for SE? I can't tell you, but I do believe quest progression is the best solution. Unless anyone here can come up with a better concept than monster grinding or quest grinding. Of course you can make it heavily RPG oriented like Star Wars, but you run the risk of the "MMO" portion getting stale in the process. That is SW's biggest problem right now, people treated it more like a single player RPG and got bored with end game real fast. In MMO's, you have to feel like not only are you contributing to the storyline, you have to contribute to the world itself also.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

The same argument could be said by trying to preempt concerns this late in the development cycle. A lot of what you're talking about would require, as I staid before, sweeping changes to the entire system. If you are saying you are not liking what you have been hearing, that is one thing. But demanding it changed before even trying it is another.

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I am not "demanding" any changes to content I haven't tried. I am giving my (admittedly strong) opinion on issues that I care about in game-play, and against which tendency seems to go of late, not only in this game, but in the industry at large.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I would describe myself in a state of suspense. I am waiting for information to truly speculate upon and an actual experience in 2.0 to give constructive feedback for.

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I'm also in a state of suspense. It's only I don't believe for a second silence will contribute positively in the areas that still can be changed. And later could be too late. I'm writing, yes, but I don't believe I'm doing so heavy-handedly, nor too brashly.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I know it won't be perfect, I know there will be parts of the game I'm flat out not interested in and I'll state what will make me interested in it.


But as far as the general subject of grinding. We have two types of 'progression' typical in RPGs, especially MMORPGS. We've the level grind, and the gear grind. This game is much more about the gear grind than it is about the level grind, which is a good idea, considering most successful games right now are realizing that the level grind is simply not sitting well with the bulk of players these days. People like to have their full skillset to play with, and would rather improve through practice, than be carted around having multiple training wheels slowly being taken off as you go along.

It's why skillset games like League of Legends are becoming more and more popular, though that is a different genere.

We can acclimate some ideas of 'training to be good' by making quest chains for specific abilities (heck, even make us choose between training for one ability or another to further specialize.) But I really don't see FFXI's grind being a feasible mechanic here.

Again, I don't have enough info on the actual pacing of 2.0's leveling to judge. "Faster" by Yoshida's perspective may not be faster for us, who take every advantage we can get.

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The rest of this thoughtful post, Hyrst, I very much agree with. It's just that word "Faster" that scares me, and I think it's best if I, by saying so, I contribute a bit to prick the community to express their thoughts on the issue and, in general, to illuminate us all. Your replies, are part of this, and for that I, personally, I'm thankful.

This game's development company has taken the very unusual path of rebuilding it with a very determined and proactive community nested in its inside. It cannot now go back and ignore it's bidding. This community's opinion, for good or bad, will imprint the game; I want it to be for good, and I just happen to think that requires respectful, thoughtful and intelligent expression. People like you (and--it's to be hoped--I). I'm not trying to win an argument, or to have my opinion be the driving guideline, but rather to help (sometimes clumsily, I'll admit) steer the community into expressing civilly and articulately what its wants might be.

R

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Funny thing is, the "common player" are also tired of grinding on boring quests all day.

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Really ? Where is your proof ?

I agree with OP. Everything is just end-game, end-game... Meh. Everything is rushing there, I dont like this system too.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I am not a WoW Player, nor do I appeal to it. However, even if FFXI is Square Enix's most profitable game, those profits dwarfed to inconsequential size by the success of WoW, which you seem to be venomously disapproving of.

If we are to be truely netural here, you need to first acknolege that WoW beats FFXI by an approximate factor of twenty four in terms of peak subscriptions. That is not something you ignore because you have a preference to a personal memory. That is when you sit up straight and look at seriously at the differences.

Even ignoring WoW, SWTOR, Rift, Aion, Tera: Their initial subscriptions alone doubled our highest number in FFXI at its peak. Guild Wars 2 is poised to do the same. Yet you scoff at these titles. Even as many of them drop large numbers of subscriptions, they're still pulling higher numbers than FFXI is currently.

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One point most modern audiences have trouble navigating through is how the loud voice of the gigantic financial and demographic success of popular products seems to obliterate the voice of less successful options; the less numerous popularity and inferior financial earnings of more demanding and perhaps less terse material always lose when people go out of their way to determine what's best. It's an argument that most of the time does not include considerations of real quality in its scope.

This is one of the inherent issues with markets, and democracy, as regulating structures: Despite their enormous virtues, and the fact that, no doubt, we lack better options, they do tend to push the notion that popularity equals quality. And who can argue against the mighty push of a big bank account?

The notion that the taste or the preferences of the lesser numbers are equal to elitism, and are therefore perverse, is so profoundly ingrained in our culture--because it's so horrendously exploited and abused, both politically and commercially--that it's difficult even to argue against its blatant incorrectness and demagogical bias.

Mozart has become inferior to Michael Jackson, McDonald's and Subway superior to nutritive home cooking or fine dining, Coca-Cola better than water or wine, Rothko and Pollock lesser than Rockwell, Lucas inherently better than Antonioni or Bergman, and stretching the issue, FFXI markedly inferior to World of Warcraft or Rift, which easily "beat" it by high number factors.

The full philosophical argument against this view is perhaps not within the scope of a forum like this one, but the questioning of it definitely fits here.

Let's not yield so easily to the tyranny of the majority, and the rule of the minimum common denominator, which is inherent complexity-phobic and unaware of quality. And let's remember that the truly great democracies of the world institutionalize opposition to the majority rule, and subject said rule to checks and balances.

R

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

So why are FFXI romanticists insistent in forcing such a thing? The answer is personal preference. My issue against them is - they're not looking for alternatives. They want leveling slow to the point of exhaustion to others

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Sweeping generalizations FTW!

Same could be said of people who don't want to look at a longer leveling curve as a alternative they are so bent on their own opinion! Dear GOD WHAT HAVE WE DONE!

As for your "Arbitrary" number system I'd love to hear how it's arbitrary, I assume you would be all for the removal of levels from the game entirely if this is the point. A point many people have brought up due to the fact leveling itself is pretty much a worthless objective in the game.

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

I am not "demanding" any changes to content I haven't tried. I am giving my (admittedly strong) opinion on issues that I care about in game-play, and against which tendency seems to go of late, not only in this game, but in the industry at large.

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I'd like to first mention that I love relying to your post. I read them and they're very thoughtful and constructive to boost. That said, you my friend are a rare gem in which your specific tone is not reflected in others in your 'camp' so to speak. Many would chose to defend their arguments by defacing another credibility somehow, yet you keep your composure and provide a thoughtful and respectful reply.

I'm smiling right now in delight because of it. Thank you.

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I'm also in a state of suspense. It's only I don't believe for a second silence will contribute positively in the areas that still can be changed. And later could be too late. I'm writing, yes, but I don't believe I'm doing so heavy-handedly, nor too brashly.

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This said, I do spectulate that we are too late, at this point, for high thought level discussion as to the progression systems in 2.0. At least as far in the manners of general approaches and concepts.

At this point in development, given our indicated launch date coming at the beginning of 2013, the team should be beyond the conception stage and into optimization. So the ideal is in place and we need to be more aware of the formulae by which SE is running experience and progression by, before we can ask for modifications. Otherwise, we're asking them to rethink the entire formula a third time.

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The rest of this thoughtful post, Hyrist, I very much agree with.

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Thank you.

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It's just that word "Faster" that scares me, and I think it's best if I, by saying so, I contribute a bit to prick the community to express their thoughts on the issue and, in general, to illuminate us all. Your replies, are part of this, and for that I, personally, I'm thankful.

This game's development company has taken the very unusual path of rebuilding it with a very determined and proactive community nested in its inside. It cannot now go back and ignore it's bidding. This community's opinion, for good or bad, will imprint the game; I want it to be for good, and I just happen to think that requires respectful, thoughtful and intelligent expression. People like you (and--it's to be hoped--I). I'm not trying to win an argument, or to have my opinion be the driving guideline, but rather to help (sometimes clumsily, I'll admit) steer the community into expressing civilly and articulately what its wants might be.

R

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Tis a noble adjective with one major problem. We cannot assume that every individual on these boards are adults, or are able to be respectful for whatever reason. That said, finding those who do entertain a respectful discourse is part of the pleasures in any community.

More on the subject of the word "Faster". I will have to admit, for the sake of clarity, that I too became somewhat starteled that Yoshida chose such wording for the leveling process.

However beyond the fear I sought reason. Yoshida is withholding information about 2.0 and we know as much, but he also likes to drop clues. The numbers in our serveys were pretty clear that the majority of the players were fairly content with the leveling pace. So in order to make the logical leap from 'It's ok where we are.' to 'we probably should make it faster' likely lies within that black box of information we do not have.

If I am permitted to speculate, I believe it means we're having 'more' added. Be that a higher level cap or simply more classes to level. To keep the same time amount to reach similar goals, that means the general pacing would have to increase. This may be a misinterpretation of the data given by the players, mind you, but it would make sense if that was the conclusion made.

If this is the case, then we do have time to tell them to dial it back some. We'll know in the Beta for certain.

Another approach to the idea term of 'faster' may be use time. For example, on average, through the course to fifty, it takes me about an hour per level. I beleive that is an ideal course, as getting level 50 would take about fifty hours of playtime. At ten hours a week, that would mean five weeks.

Of course time would be distracted doing quests, raid runs with friends, and what have you.

If the process of doing raids, questing, etc, also leveled me, then I'm no longer separation my time just for leveling, and by proxy, leveling is faster. This would be closer to the ideal as now players are getting rewarded for adventuring and being in a part of the rich content during levels that we were asking for, but we would have to see the matter first hand before we could speculate that the amount of experience gathered this way is too much, or if the quests and objectives seem deep enough to merit its rewards.

Overall I caution against panic in a situation that we know so little, but rather compose our thoughts to the point where we have our ideals refined, yet flexible enough to get specific with the Developers once we have the Beta in our hands, both positively and constructively.

I am keeping my ideals open enough for me to be able to say "Wow, I'm fifty already?" And feel good about it, rather than disappointed. That's probably Yoshida's end goal: to have you so wrapped up in enjoying the things you do, that you don't notice that you're grinding while doing it. It's up to us to tweak it so that response works for the widest number of people - and I caution against presuming one's self in the role of being a majority. To achieve that, we have to assume a juxtaposition - (and I don't mean everyone's favorite Podcast Tarutaru. ;) )

I completely agree. I have seen how having different things to do and having different milestones can change how people play the game.

Currently along with FFXIV I am playing Runes of Magic because my brother plays and wanted me to join with him. It's combat is incredibly bland, it's crafting sucks compared to FFXIV and to this day I have not been made to care enough about the lore to know the name of the world everything takes place in. But I stay for the community.

End game really doesn't exist in that game, just a new instance to conquer and a new world to see. And I see a huge difference in how people act in this game from FFXIV where endgame is pretty much all there is as far as milestones go.

I am about to hit level 55 where as cap is somewhere in the 80s and people are going out of there way to help me. Helping me get good armor, good weapons and help me learn how to stat my gear (that is the one system that out shines FFXIV, the gear stating gear system is insane and makes the materia system look tiny) because 55 is where putting the new stats on my gear becomes a worthwhile endeavor, and effectively increases my stats 50-100%

This is great because as I keep going I will get this treatment a lot, as I reach new milestones they will take me to new places, helping me get the armors and weapons that are considered a rite of passage, and teaching me how to lead someone else like me through these places when I am strong enough to do so myself.

As much as I know the community will hate me for saying it, it reminds me of FFXI. Sure I will admit that the grind wasn't always fun, but the rewards were the best. I still remember getting my chocobo, traveling to a different city, unlocking my Dragoon Job. I never really cared for end game in FFXI, never got to it, my xbox and profile crashed before I got to see probably 75% of the game, but I was happy where I was, and why not? I had a Chocobo, I had a Wyvern following me, and I could travel all sorts of interesting places with them.

FFXI Players were wrong to say that the grind is what made FFXI fun. It was those milestones that made it what it is. But at the same time, maybe they were right. If it was easy to level up, like it is here I may not have cared about getting those things, not as much at least. So I'm with this guy, make leveling up slower, make it much more meaningful but don't just make it slower, give us things to do, accomplishments to achieve. No one would care if they were slow to level if they were too busy fulfilling a role within the game world, within their Grand and Private Companies, and grabbing some awesome loot along the way. If you say Lv. 15 gets you a chocobo, no one cares about Lv. 50 anymore, they want that chocobo, or that house, or the chance to get that crazy new sword.

Milestones become rites of passage, and rites of passage glue a community together. People will help you achieve things, and in turn you will help the next group.

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

The full philosophical argument against this view is perhaps not within the scope of a forum like this one, but the questioning of it definitely fits here.

Let's not yield so easily to the tyranny of the majority, and the rule of the minimum common denominator, which is inherent complexity-phobic and unaware of quality. And let's remember that the truly great democracies of the world institutionalize opposition to the majority rule, and subject said rule to checks and balances.

R

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There are two very pointiest responses to this that we need to address very quickly before your approach is spread without proper context, lest it be misconstruted.

In the concept of McDonalds vs Healthy food, etc. We are talking matters of health care vs capitalistic pursuit - in which there is a clear moral right to weigh against the concept of convenience.

But we are talking about the field of recreation, a subjective art, at best. And the only true measurement of success really is the number of people who enjoy it. In which case this is a matter of 'majority rules' in spite of other examples you would compare with other factors to consider.

To draw an example parallel, this would be like comparing Coke to say Pepsi or some other off-brand rather than trying to compare it to water.


The second major point that must be addressed immediately here is that your statement implies that the because the minority and the majority opinions conflict, that the solution must be exclusive to one or the other, as if neither camp could be satisfied while any amount of the other is.

This is simply not true.

While there is a fringe of players who enjoy a specific type of content and will be inflexible to the point of quitting over it, the ideal solution is to appeal to as broad as an audiance as possible - this includes more hardcore perspectives such as enjoying a longer grind.

But as a minority, it must be stated that the concept of compromise may come greater on that part than on the part of the majority, because the end goal is commercial success. It really is the only way you can truly measure this kind of success objectively.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

The second major point that must be addressed immediately here is that your statement implies that the because the minority and the majority opinions conflict, that the solution must be exclusive to one or the other, as if neither camp could be satisfied while any amount of the other is.

This is simply not true.

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Yet basically stating 'you FFXI (insert) are wrong and should realize it's just full of flawed designs and therefore shouldn't be suggesting anything from that outdated period even though WoW released 2 years after it and therfore is just as outdated so you should stop forcing your views on us, FFXI (insert)."

You do realize that's essentially the conflict being stated, right?

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

The second major point that must be addressed immediately here is that your statement implies that the because the minority and the majority opinions conflict, that the solution must be exclusive to one or the other, as if neither camp could be satisfied while any amount of the other is.

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To say there is no middle ground would be foolish but at the end of the day a wise man once said.

"If you chase two rabbits both will escape."

You can try to appeal to as broad of a audience as possible but in the end you will alienate another segment of the market. There is no such thing as a game that appeals to everyone and obviously the proponents of one side of the fence is going to want things to mainly swing in their favor.

I may be in a minority segment of the market, it's easy to see on paper what segment of the market is ripe for the picking but that's it on paper. FFXI as "Grindfest terribad" that it was still had hundreds of thousands of active subscribers, many of them were long term die-hard fans that were with the game from release to pretty much it's end of times when SE started to spread itself across all demographics with the level cap raise and all of it's casual friendly systems that alienated long time players.

You hear people all the time saying "I played WoW for a couple of months it was fun but it's over now" because it's what WoW is, it's a game designed around mass consumption of easy content with bits of challenge strewn about to appease it's hardcore audience. The customer retention numbers must be mind boggling to see how many accounts are created and never get past that free trial level cap.

Commercial success of a single product will only take you so far. I'll be interested to see what Blizzard does with Titan to differentiate it from WoW. Diablo III has been a harsh lesson for Blizzard as well, despite breaking PC sales records the game itself is hemoraging players because of design choices that made the game more "Convient" to play and took out alot of the long term goals that people played Diablo I-II for years to accomplish.

At the end of the day what I'm trying to point out is that while the "Minority" may not seem like the best market to appeal to, at times they are the guys who save your bacon when things are hard up. Your fans that hold you up under a shoddy foundation while you work to lay the ground work of a more stable game system. Leaving the fans out to dry has shown to have disastrous effect on many companies looking at the 3 large consol hardware manufacturers you can see this as plain as day.

Sony's PS3 launched at a staggering 600.00 price point with a array of issues but their fans from the PS2 held the system aloft long enough for it to start out the gate and be only a scant behind Microsoft in terms of hardware sales. Nintendo completly took their fans for granted and while the Wii sold like hot-cakes to the market the fans themselves had little motivation to purchase the system. Now that the Wii-U has been announced it's been almost panned in the scene with a giant "Meh" and it has yet to show that the mass market is even chomping at the bit to get at it.

There is no way to please everyone, and SE obviously are the ones who have to make the choice about who they aim for. Many comapnies have tried to appeal to everyone and failed misserably you can't please everyone it's a fact of life. You can give everyone a sack of money and there would still be people who spit in your face and say they don't want your charity.

SE needs to strike a balance that is for sure, but one way or another someone is going to get the favorable side of the development team while the other is left to wither on the vine thrown a few bones here and there to keep interest alive.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Yet basically stating 'you FFXI (insert) are wrong and should realize it's just full of flawed designs and therefore shouldn't be suggesting anything from that outdated period even though WoW released 2 years after it and therfore is just as outdated so you should stop forcing your views on us, FFXI (insert)."

You do realize that's essentially the conflict being stated, right?

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Actually, that is the conflict you, personally, are inferring from it.

Referring to an outside opinion. Reminds us that FFXI was not, in fact, highly regarded among even Final Fantasy fans.

Keeping the concepts objective means not blindly championing a niche title in strict defiance of far more successful ones.

You do realize that 500k subscribers in this day and age would be considered a failure, even by single player standards. If you were to approach your own favorites objectively, you have to acknowledge that the game had many flaws that kept it from growing. We must then address these flaws going forward if we're to adapt any mechanics from FFXI into FFXIV.

You'd rather deny these flaws completely and target me for stating them, even though the very game you praise acknowledge it and has continually attempted to adjust it until it ultimately made it arguably easier to get to level 50 than it is here in FFXIV.

Put bluntly: get off your high horse about XI. It's not as good of a game as you praise it to be, and if we're to take ANYTHING from that game it should be with a very healthy dose of caution, as FFXIV really can't afford bleeding out a large number of players for the sake of a few people's nostalgia.

And before you reference them incorrectly. Crystal Tower and Golden Saucer are additive concepts, locations of reference, not combat and progression mechanics. A closer correlation would be perhaps adding Balista.

Ideally, FFXIV should find it's own mechanical equilibrium as far as class progression.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Ideally, FFXIV should find it's own mechanical equilibrium as far as class progression.

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^ Best statment yet. I was a huge fan of XI but I don't want XIV to turn into a high graphic version of XI. I want it to be it's own game. In keeping with the topic, i do agree that the end game rat race seems old but then again it's only that way to players who don't stop and enjoy the grind to 50.

i enjoy the journey not the destination.

I really doubt anyone pulling from their experience from XI want this game to be XI-2. Then again if we don't quote something with WoW level subscribers it seems we are going to get pointed in another direction becasue what we thought was fun obviously didn't sell well enough.

Man CoD must be the best game evar.

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SE needs to strike a balance that is for sure, but one way or another someone is going to get the favorable side of the development team while the other is left to wither on the vine thrown a few bones here and there to keep interest alive.

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At this point I should probably reference the fact that Yoshida is aware of this issue and is going to, attempt at least, to keep his whole team on to continually add and develop interesting content for the wide group. We'll have to see if he keeps to his word, but I get the idea of being a tad bit afraid that your favorite job/event/gameplay aspect may get neglected. That's a common fear to have in an MMO.