Let's redefine "damage taxes"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

"RDM competes with the other DPS"
As seen above, "other DPS" includes: Monk, Dragoon, Ninja, Samurai, Bard, Machinist, Dancer, Black Mage and Summoner.
But with the Party bonus existing, it is untrue. RDM will never had to compete with MNK or DRG.

This is no strawman argument, you exactly said "RDM competes with other DPS" and "EVERY DPS COMPETES WITH THE OTHER DPS" with the generosity of putting it in capslock

The contradiction is clear as day. You're free to correct yourself if you failed to convey your idea.





I stated a fact (the party bonus), you tried to contest it and claimed it was an opinion.
I proved the fact.

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Nope, see you're still strawmanning. The party bonus has nothing to do with the fact that DPS compete with one another. Have a nice day, hope you figure it out

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Originally Posted by FireMage

The party bonus has nothing to do with the fact that DPS compete with one another.

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Thank you for this quote.

I didn't even tried to argue and got gold out of it.
I don't even need to elaborate the flaws reveals themselves.
We have reached the terminus.

Have a good day, sir/madam.

I've never seen someone so happy they were shown to be strawmanning, but you do you

Is FireMage's daily post limit exhausted yet? I want this thread to have normal discussion again instead of constantly being derailed by FireMage.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

Is FireMage's daily post limit exhausted yet? I want this thread to have normal discussion again instead of constantly being derailed by FireMage.

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I’m like 99% sure it’s just trolling at this point.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

I’m like 99% sure it’s just trolling at this point.

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Not a troll in the slightest

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Factually wrong
Due to the role bonus, you will always have to pick at least 1 melee, 1 caster and 1 ranged for the sake of efficiency.
You have 1 flex spot that will most likely be taken by a melee as they offer more value to the group.

Therefore:
Melees compete for 2 spots among melees jobs.
Casters compete for 1 spot among casters jobs.
Rangeds compete for 1 spot among ranged jobs.

If all DPS competes with all DPS, then we would have 4 melees meta.

I still refuse to debate with you but correcting your so called "facts" will remain my guilty pleasure.
While remaining polite and not being personal of course.

I suggest you try to understand why everyone here disagrees with your takes.

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This is unfortunately at the current "balance" 100% factually incorrect currently. You can currently do 3x melee partys and do vastly more damage than having 1 caster in the party. That is the major current issue. While fire mage has a lot wrong, you are extremely incorrect on this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Nope, see you're still strawmanning. The party bonus has nothing to do with the fact that DPS compete with one another. Have a nice day, hope you figure it out

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Incorrect when jobs are properly balanced, the 1% party bonus for having a cater outweighs having 3 dps. this greatly impacts dps competing for each other. If only 1 casted does viable damage, then that caster will be the only one allowed in content over another physical.

Which is happening currently p6 and p7 both have no mages which is very common.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

This is unfortunately at the current "balance" 100% factually incorrect currently. You can currently do 3x melee partys and do vastly more damage than having 1 caster in the party. That is the major current issue. While fire mage has a lot wrong, you are extremely incorrect on this.


Incorrect when jobs are properly balanced, the 1% party bonus for having a cater outweighs having 3 dps. this greatly impacts dps competing for each other. If only 1 casted does viable damage, then that caster will be the only one allowed in content over another physical.

Which is happening currently p6 and p7 both have no mages which is very common.

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You literally just proved me right in a way, you realize that yes? That DPS compete with one another, independent of the party bonus

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Originally Posted by Housinginneed

I have not heard of a single good argument for this "balance based on difficulty good" side, other than like 3 people crying "but how else can i show off how elite i am?"

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

You haven't as none exist. RDM competes with the other DPS, MNK competes with the other DPS, EVERY DPS COMPETES WITH THE OTHER DPS. Not balancing on difficulty does nothing but punish those that excel at higher complexity Jobs

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Like i said, this is the only argument you have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Housinginneed

Like i said, this is the only argument you have.

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Well given it's a fact I don't need anything else

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Not balancing on difficulty does nothing but punish those that excel at higher complexity Jobs

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Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah "here's why this job I don't play deserves to be worse than mine in every single way" yak yak yak yak.

I've heard it a hundred times in the healer forums, it's just as stupid here.

Also melee aren't "complex". If anything, modern encounter design makes positionals and uptime a breeze. What they currently (and have always) heavily forced on players is movement. Why, then, given this design paradigm, are the "hardest to play/most rewarded" jobs not the casters then? Since their explicit weakness is needing to remain immobile for stretches of time?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah "here's why this job I don't play deserves to be worse than mine in every single way" yak yak yak yak.

I've heard it a hundred times in the healer forums, it's just as stupid here.

Also melee aren't "complex". If anything, modern encounter design makes positionals and uptime a breeze. What they currently (and have always) heavily forced on players is movement. Why, then, given this design paradigm, are the "hardest to play/most rewarded" jobs not the casters then? Since their explicit weakness is needing to remain immobile for stretches of time?

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It's not stupid at all, it's how proper balance works. It's why AST deserves the top spot, why DRK does for tanks. Also one of the casters, BLM deserves to be top DPS due to its design. However SMN has the easiest rotation of all the DPS, and almost complete mobility. Movement does factor into this, when did I say it didn't?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

It's not stupid at all, it's how proper balance works. It's why AST deserves the top spot, why DRK does for tanks. Also one of the casters, BLM deserves to be top DPS due to its design. However SMN has the easiest rotation of all the DPS, and almost complete mobility. Movement does factor into this, when did I say it didn't?

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You think dark knight is the hardest tank? yeah no "lots of buttons" and spamming 1, 2, 3 isn't hard, Paladin and Gunbreaker are generally considered more difficult.

Why are you trying to balance on difficulty when you also don't know what you're talking about in terms of what makes a job difficult? does "busy = Difficult" to you? The fact that melee dps are so far ahead of everyone when the fights are more tailored to you, when your rotations are pretty simple on samurai and Reaper compared to a lot of other jobs.

I don't think it's a bad thing to reward a job slightly but again where do we draw the line, who asked for a certain job to be so easy? Why should some jobs be punished so much for being considered easier, the only thing you've shown is bias towards what you find more difficult, because people find a lot of different jobs more difficult then what you find difficult, theirs no factual statement on difficulty.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

You think dark knight is the hardest tank? yeah no "lots of buttons" and spamming 1, 2, 3 isn't hard, Paladin and Gunbreaker are generally considered more difficult.

Why are you trying to balance on difficulty when you also don't know what you're talking about in terms of what makes a job difficult? does "busy = Difficult" to you? The fact that melee dps are so far ahead of everyone when the fights are more tailored to you, when your rotations are pretty simple on samurai and Reaper compared to a lot of other jobs.

I don't think it's a bad thing to reward a job slightly but again where do we draw the line, who asked for a certain job to be so easy? Why should some jobs be punished so much for being considered easier, the only thing you've shown is bias towards what you find more difficult, because people find a lot of different jobs more difficult then what you find difficult, theirs no factual statement on difficulty.

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They would be slight. Have you been paying attention to ANYTHING I've been saying? The gap between the DPS is over 10% from the top to the bottom. It's over 1300 DPS right now, proper balance would keep the ceiling where it is, move BLM to be said ceiling and then bring the others to within ~500 DPS of it. Proper balance has the answers, I'm just the messenger

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

They would be slight. Have you been paying attention to ANYTHING I've been saying? The gap between the DPS is over 10% from the top to the bottom. It's over 1300 DPS right now, proper balance would keep the ceiling where it is, move BLM to be said ceiling and then bring the others to within ~500 DPS of it. Proper balance has the answers, I'm just the messenger

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Well I remember you saying every ranged job is easier then every melee job, I don't take issue with slightly rewarding Jobs that are "harder" but the issue we have is everyone finds difficulty subjective so it would be a hard to even determine with a lot of jobs, I don't think your ideal on what makes a job difficult or not is anymore consistent then mine or any other player.

I guess jobs such as >Reaper, Samurai, Dancer and Summoner are generally look towards being easier, but again who asked for summoner to be made so much more easier why shouldn't summoner get some more complexity inside of it's kit instead of punishing players for playing it, theirs a lot of issues balancing with difficulty as a reward, 5% would be pushing it and players would generally be unsatisfied with their mains still not performing well because it's easy, I 100% agree on black mage being the most high damage job as theirs more factors then "rotational" difficulty at play for BLM, but most jobs once you've played it for a while and got it down with muscle memory, the difficulty on it becomes less of a factor.

I don't think anyone disagrees that 1300 is way too much and it's fine to have a small skill ceiling for jobs such as Black Mage.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Snip

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I'd say there's no value trying to save this one. FireMage is a one trick RDM player with the arrogance that he apparently knows all the job in savage. His subjective experience is clearly what the entire player base feels in his eyes. There's no way... everybody in the OF is right and him, the sole player in his corner, could be wrong.

He doesn't even know which role his RDM is and who he should competes against x__x

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I'd say there's no value trying to save this one. FireMage is a one trick RDM player with the arrogance that he apparently knows all the job in savage. His subjective experience is clearly what the entire player base feels in his eyes. There's no way... everybody in the OF is right and him, the sole player in his corner, could be wrong.

He doesn't even know which role his RDM is and who he should competes against x__x

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Ad hominem, cute

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Well given it's a fact I don't need anything else

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Not sure at which international convention they decided the formula [difficulty = more damage in mmo = balance] but, sure if you say that design philosophy is somehow "fact" then okay, I can't help you.

There isn't any point debating this guy because this guy is playing FFXIV the MOBA, while the rest of us are playing FFXIV the mmo. He wants the game to be balanced like a competitive e-sport game and can't see it any other way since this is probably his first mmo.

Thing I don't understand about devs is their whole job difficulty equals higher damage explanation when as stated that in the long and short of it DRK isn't that hard and does top dmg while you have Paladin doing more work but substantially less damage.

In another scenario you have classes like Monk(Dragon Kick go brr) and Samurai which I feel are also not hard but do the most damage as opposed classes like MCH that do 4x the work for half the damage a free style Samurai puts out.

And I personally feel that DRG is harder then Reaper and I think DRG does lower damage?

But I feel the biggest distinction in balance is around the DPS of casters where there is a huge gap between BLM and SMN/RDM due to the both of them having Raise.

Especially since Endwalker combat encounters have huge hitboxes across the board giving Melee full uptime as opposed to casters and you often have a staggering difference in output between the 2. Often being a 10% DPS difference for no reason.

So you really have 2 big takeaways here. That Caster balance is fucked and Tank balance is bad when you can play an amazing PLD/WAR but lose to a mediocre DRK/GNB because they put out 300-500 extra DPS just by existing.

And when it comes to RDM you only do damage when you do your Resolution Combo and if it crits. Otherwise it's wet noodles all the time. And your Melee Combo is pretty weak and the attacks you use to build it up ironically are stronger. I'd rather they just make it build Mana and you as a Red Mage decide whether or not you should be casting or be in Melee range and then you burst. Burst early burst often.

SMN has a rather restrictive kit devoid of choice with clunky Necromancer themed attacks in Energy Drain/Fester/Painflare/Ruin 4. Where you are a melee caster that spams Ruin and uses Summons on CD. If you have choice it's to delay a burst and withhold damage for a raid buff window. And if you want the most out of Festerflare you have to hold your charges for 2 minutes for 2 Ruin 4's and 4 Aetherflow actions which can be rather clunky.

If BLM can do it's thing and turret it's miles ahead of the other 2.

My only comment on MCH is it needs more ways to charge battery more often and to do some skill adjustments on stuff like Flamethrower and Wildfire along with some potency increases that put it up there with the melees. It doesn't need any RDPS. Just make it do a lot of damage.

Classes with large RDPS need to do shit damage like Dancer/Bard do since most of their damage come their innate party/raid utility actions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

This is unfortunately at the current "balance" 100% factually incorrect currently. You can currently do 3x melee partys and do vastly more damage than having 1 caster in the party. That is the major current issue. While fire mage has a lot wrong, you are extremely incorrect on this.

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Let's clear up two points:

My intend was to bring up and explain the purpose of party bonus.
The state of the current balance doesn't change the purpose of party bonus.
Least, let's not forget party bonus also brings vitality and mind, both increases the party survival.

I would like you to back up your sources
I know for sure that theorycraft happened to replace rangeds with melees, but I've never seen it in practice, let alone actual proof the 1% is not worth a caster/range.
Currently, the fastest kills with 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 DPS always includes at least one of the 3 roles.
The only non-standard teams often includes a 5th DPS instead of a healer.

This is why I'm doubting your claims, would you kindly back-up your claim?
If you could also bring the theorycraft, I would be grateful!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

You think dark knight is the hardest tank? yeah no "lots of buttons" and spamming 1, 2, 3 isn't hard, Paladin and Gunbreaker are generally considered more difficult.

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I've played Dark Knight and Gunbreaker this expansion.
I can confirm that DRK and GNB aren't hard to play at a level good enough to claim ultimate and week 1 clears.

PLD is much more difficult to play on its offensive rotation but also on management of defensive cooldowns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I've played Dark Knight and Gunbreaker this expansion.
I can confirm that DRK and GNB aren't hard to play at a level good enough to claim ultimate and week 1 clears.

PLD is much more difficult to play on its offensive rotation but also on management of defensive cooldowns.

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Agreed, this is also what Xeno has said on his recent video, he considers DRK braindead easy and paladin the hardest to optimize, which clearly shows once again, difficulty is subjective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Housinginneed

Agreed, this is also what Xeno has said on his recent video, he considers DRK braindead easy and paladin the hardest to optimize, which clearly shows once again, difficulty is subjective.

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There are few things that can be considered objectively more difficult like a clownfiesta is objectively more difficult to heal than a smooth run where nobody eats anything.
But it all falls apart the moment someone tries to apply the concept of difficulty to a class as a whole. There are so different answers to what someone even considers difficult.
Amount of buttons? APM? Rigidness? Timers? Procs? Limited mobility? Constant APM? High APM burst/ low APM downtime?

I'm personally better at adjusting on the fly than rigidly sticking to something so any job that is rigid is more difficult for me by nature. I'm better at BLM than GNB even though many would consider the former more difficult, especially when optimizing. Healing the most chaotic clownfiesta party in highend content is easier for me than DRG, I always have to spend a lot of time practicing the latter before even performing decently.
Someone else will be the opposite and perform better if the rotation or general gameplay is very rigid but struggle with any form of rng or unforseen circumstances.
For every single question you'll get different answers from different people and punishing people by getting locked out for enjoying a job that just so happens to not having to deal with some things is stupid.

People will play what they want unless pushed to the limit as we've seen this tier. People still played PLD until they hit a brickwall with the dps check and ended up being the deadweight by choosing the "wrong" class.
Saying that if a job was easy and brings good dps, nobody would play a job that has to put in more work for the same result is a myth that needs to die once and for all. Some people are drawn to classes that challenge them more and will always prefer them, doesn't matter if that other class right next to them gets the same result for something that would challenge them less. Some people just like specific aesthetics or gameplay and locking them out because they like the caster/ melee mix of RDM or the sustained dps from PLD but someone decided they're not deserving of week 1 clears goes against everything the devs tried to promote for this game.

If someone can't stand the thought that someone might deal the same damage for "less" work than just go for that class and stop crying. And if someone really enjoys the class, then what is even the problem with someone else getting the same result for "less" work? This is really just "waah waah I don't want that other kid to be good too waah waah" disguised as a noble goal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I've played Dark Knight and Gunbreaker this expansion.
I can confirm that DRK and GNB aren't hard to play at a level good enough to claim ultimate and week 1 clears.

PLD is much more difficult to play on its offensive rotation but also on management of defensive cooldowns.

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I think I pick PLD for comfort at this point because I've generally always "mained" it, But when leveling Drk/war particular I found it really easy to know what to do, Gunbreaker doesn't really have much of a learning curve either, The other tanks don't really compare to high end PLD.

Plds defensives are the one thing I'm not a big fan of, Holy Shelltron is generally fine (weird dot mechs and being stunned can suck for blocks) shared CD's (20% rampart and 30% mits), The problem with it's self healing being tied to your magic burst I never really control a big portion of your self sustain, I don't think cover should really exist, DV being worse shake, Passage can be good but I'm not a fan of how it works ect. I think PLDs defensive kit could use a big touch up in the future but I really doubt they're going to look at anything like that, I'd also like to see tanks have more unique defensive kit in general, I do find PLDs kit in defence just more clunky and situational in general, I think what annoys me is being lowest damage and having bad defensives but "meh pld utility tank" when Plds utility is pretty questionable at best.

I like PLD in general I would like some changes to the Job, but generally not to it's rotation (sadly it's likely going to get just rotation changes hopefully nothing that would ruin the job), I just want to keep the idenity offensively of being a skilled swordsman with strong magical powers, I really liked the sort of characters with great physical powers but also pretty good affinity for magic (hence me being a red mage enjoyer aswell), I also wouldn't want the difficulty in general to be bogged down too much, streamlining is fine just don't think it needs to be too streamlined... which im afraid of

I think Paladin is going to get hit with the 2 minute curse. Probably some auto crit too.

I dunno if their defensives will be touched at all.

Passage could be better if it did more for the restriction it imposes or just acts as a 20 second AoE Sentinel for the party. I think for being a 2 minute wonder it should be stronger then a Rampart.

I'd rather see more raidwide mitigation on PLD. Or things that make the PLD Tankier option with a lot of bulk.

One can argue that a Sage has a lot of damage shields and mitigation options that I would prefer to see on a Tank like PLD then a healer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I think Paladin is going to get hit with the 2 minute curse. Probably some auto crit too.

I dunno if their defensives will be touched at all.

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That would be the most deaf rework we'd ever see.
From what I gathered, PLD is popular among PLD due to its sustained damage rotation.
This made me curious and I actually want to try as well, but not until they rework the Oath Gauge, the block and buffs the defensive.

Oath gauge being on a gauge that fills after auto attack is terrible during downtime.
Cover is worthless, no reason to use it outside pvp.
Hallowed Ground is now the weakest of all invuln due to its too long cooldown. PLD self healing is worthless during HG.

And that's only a part of the problems. For a tank with a shield, it's paradoxal it has the worst defensive.

Like i sayed in the other thread, am i agains the idea, that rng are making as much dmg as meele.

But, i agree that blm, Sam and mch should be the top of the 3 great categories, because the have the same function and should be near.

Difficulty is a useless point for deciding, how much dmg a class should do. Because, it is completly individually.

I was a caster, until i reach lvl 75. At that lvl was i unable to use any caster (mages and healers), because they had to many stuff, i needed to watch. The result was countless missplays and i was unable to watch the battle field.

At that time was meele (nin, later monk) and dancer much easier for me to play.

It changed, after a break and reorganice my skills. I overcame lvl 75 and was able to play the caster again.

Now, with 90, is it completly reversed. It is so much easier for me to play blm, as any meele caster. The blm feels the most naturaly to me now.
Meele became harder, because of positionals (even, when the numbers of skills was reduced), because, i move slower as i press the skills. And im not able to reach each direction every time.

Even Red mage feels easy to me. Because it is allways only two skills you need to use at once. Only the meele part is forcing me out of my flow.

It is personaly. But a example, how differently "Difficulty' can be.

Bro, do you do any content where any job is difficult?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keichi

Like i sayed in the other thread, am i agains the idea, that rng are making as much dmg as meele.

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https://i.ibb.co/5YznvhJ/67567567.png

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Bro, do you do any content where any job is difficult?

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A detailed forensic analysis reports no.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

That would be the most deaf rework we'd ever see.

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The rework is coming from the same devs that removed Kaiten because button bloat. I don't main, play or care about Paladin in the slightest but call me pessimistic on the outlook on that job's mini-rework. I will be pleasantly surprised if Paladin comes out for the better. But...I doubt that'll be the case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keichi

Snip

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You're back!!!! This thread hasn't been the same since you disappeared :'(

It would certainly give the summoner castration a run for its money. Don’t worry though, I’m sure plenty will crawl out of the woodwork to praise and continue never playing it.

I honestly dunno what to think about the Ruin Mage. It just feels so clunky. It feels like a class with "Joystick and one button" as the design template.

And given how many summons we have fought and defeated we should have a whole repertoire of Summon Options to use. And we only have 5? Big oof.

Blue Mage keeps on winning.

SMN: Ifrit
Titan
Garuda
Bahamut
Phoenix

BLU: Ifrit
Titan
Garuda
Siren
Leviathan
Shiva
Typhon
Ravana
Sophia
Brute Justice
Lakshmi
Phantom Train
Genbu
Suzaku
Tsukuyomi

And a Summoner without Shiva feels like a swing and a miss if you ask me. I'm certain Summoner is on the right track but we are only halfway there I feel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

And a Summoner without Shiva feels like a swing and a miss if you ask me. I'm certain Summoner is on the right track but we are only halfway there I feel.

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Yeah, I think this is just the framework that they're gonna build off for SMN going forward. They'll probably make Elemental Mastery more like level 70, and then introduce Ramuh, Leviathan and Shiva as additional legos after Phoenix. Then after those 3, we'll go from Phoenix to Alexander and finally Diabolos before swapping back to Bahamut. I love the concept of each lego and summon having their own buttons and playstyle, so I'd like to see additional OGCDs for each lego to both increase complexity and APM. I also don't think they should have so many instant cast GCDs, both Titan and Garuda need to have cast times. I think it's fine if the "big" summons don't like Bahamut and Phoenix.

And personally, I want every summon to have a unique aura affect, like Phoenix has currently. This would make them BRD-like for the caster role.

Well personally I like the idea of a melee mage that Summoner is now...but I think that right now the job is in a incomplete state. Technically you already have cast times if you adopt a Ruin 3 playstyle where you pop your summon and then cast Ruin 3 > Titan > Mountain Buster or Ruin 3 > Garuda.

But it really depends. But that probably doesn't matter too much. I find that just blowing your load amounts to more damage in dungeon runs and bosses if anything.

And running SMN unsynced in low level Dungeons is AMAZING for GC seal farming. 5-7 minute runs in Sirensong Sea. About the same time as a optimized Basic Instinct BLU.

I think it's just missing something and the Necromancer skills are probably gonna get tossed next expansion.

The problem with SMN is that adding more summons would simply results in the same gameplay.
If SMN would cycle on 90s rather than 60s, maybe it could help to free space for job creativity.

Lorewise wouldn't it feel pretty weird to summon Shiva as she's a person before being a primal?
What if SMN had 90s ability that could empower and extend a specific summon, for example summons Eden Titan instead of regular Titan?
And yes it would come with the kart.

In my opinion, SMN would benefit greatly by separating itself from the 120s meta.
But that's another topic.

From what I hear of people's opinions, everything would feel better away from the 120s meta.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

The rework is coming from the same devs that removed Kaiten because button bloat. I don't main, play or care about Paladin in the slightest but call me pessimistic on the outlook on that job's mini-rework. I will be pleasantly surprised if Paladin comes out for the better. But...I doubt that'll be the case.



You're back!!!! This thread hasn't been the same since you disappeared :'(

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I mean one of the job designer is a Paladin player If I remember correctly. If that is really the cause the job will be good and if not yeah it’s gonna blows.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

proper balance

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Proper balance would be every single job in the game making a perfectly equal contribution when played to 100% of its capability.

It's kinda impossible to hit though because some contributions can be difficult to quantify.

RDM and SMN both have raise for example. However in my opinion just having access to raise should not mean those jobs are notably weaker than BLM in damage.

In a fight where those raises aren't needed they contribute absolutely zero to the party, Where as in a fight where those raises are needed, they already come at the cost of reducing the damage those jobs contribute.

How easy or difficult a job is to play should have ZERO impact on proper balance. In a well-designed environment they might all have different skill floors or different skill curves but at the ceiling, they would almost all be perfectly equal in terms of overall contribution. Not really possible in this game for numerous reasons. *EPIC PAINT SKILLZ ALERT*
https://i.imgur.com/fHXTQFS.png
This would loosely represent proper balance.

Job A might be your average job with an almost linear skill curve. An almost direct correlation between effort and contribution

Job B might be seen as an easier job for beginners to pick up because it makes a greater contribution to the party for less effort. but at the same time after a point in player skill or effort, it becomes harder to optimize than Job A.

Job C might be seen as a harder job for newer or less experienced players as it requires significantly more effort to compete with jobs A and B but also ends up being easier to optimize.

But when played to 100% all 3 jobs make an almost equal contribution to the party. That's proper balance. So in theory given that MCH SMN and BLM all contribute absolutely nothing but DPS to the party. At the skill ceilieng they should all do the same amount of damage in order to make an equal contribution and thus be properly balanced, regardless of how easy or difficult they are to play.

Arbitarily making a job contribute less because its easier is flawed. people choose jobs based on thematics and aesthetics more than how easy or hard they are to play.

SMN is one of the most difficult jobs to play.... the difficulty isnt its rotation though its just staying awake...

Part of the fun of playing a particular job is its contribution to the team.

Prange/caster simply just isn't fun if it's held down by an arbitrary bonus.

Yes shooting a gun is very fun and cool, but it takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to not be aware that you are also good at Samurai and could just be doing 1k more dps.

If someone asked me to point out a single flaw with this game, it would be the "DPS dumpster bin" we only see claim more and more jobs with time since ShB.

This is something they REALLY just need to let go of. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater with the Pierce Down meta.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Proper balance would be every single job in the game making a perfectly equal contribution when played to 100% of its capability.

It's kinda impossible to hit though because some contributions can be difficult to quantify.

RDM and SMN both have raise for example. However in my opinion just having access to raise should not mean those jobs are notably weaker than BLM in damage.

In a fight where those raises aren't needed they contribute absolutely zero to the party, Where as in a fight where those raises are needed, they already come at the cost of reducing the damage those jobs contribute.

How easy or difficult a job is to play should have ZERO impact on proper balance. In a well-designed environment they might all have different skill floors or different skill curves but at the ceiling, they would almost all be perfectly equal in terms of overall contribution. Not really possible in this game for numerous reasons. *EPIC PAINT SKILLZ ALERT*
https://i.imgur.com/fHXTQFS.png
This would loosely represent proper balance.

Job A might be your average job with an almost linear skill curve. An almost direct correlation between effort and contribution

Job B might be seen as an easier job for beginners to pick up because it makes a greater contribution to the party for less effort. but at the same time after a point in player skill or effort, it becomes harder to optimize than Job A.

Job C might be seen as a harder job for newer or less experienced players as it requires significantly more effort to compete with jobs A and B but also ends up being easier to optimize.

But when played to 100% all 3 jobs make an almost equal contribution to the party. That's proper balance. So in theory given that MCH SMN and BLM all contribute absolutely nothing but DPS to the party. At the skill ceilieng they should all do the same amount of damage in order to make an equal contribution and thus be properly balanced, regardless of how easy or difficult they are to play.

Arbitarily making a job contribute less because its easier is flawed. people choose jobs based on thematics and aesthetics more than how easy or hard they are to play.

SMN is one of the most difficult jobs to play.... the difficulty isnt its rotation though its just staying awake...

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And the flaw, as gone over MULTIPLE times, is that making it equal isn't actual balance. There is no incentive to BLM if it does similar damage while also being more punishing