Been seeing a lot of doomsaying in forums/in-game lately

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

It shouldn't be murdering them like the endgame does, but it should at least give them an idea of what to expect IMO.

A great example of this was ARR's endgame dungeons and the way in which they snuck in baby training wheels versions of the Hardmode Primals that followed.

Meanwhile now we get dungeons where it's often best to flat out ignore the bulk of the fight and just beat the boss up. 24 man is even worse with zero reason to put in any effort or care beyond your own pride or OCD.

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Extremes are good stepping stones into savage. Specially the EW extremes, they are not very difficult. Truth be told though, there isn't much of a point in adding these baby steps any more. The games community is more divided than it used to be in ARR and HW. Now it seems casual players for some reason resent all difficult content, boycott it, and opt out. I see this repeated a lot now on the forums, "raiders don't pay bills" and a lot of casual players telling players that prefer raid content to flat out quit or leave. When the casual player base has no interest in progressing into harder content, those baby steps become more meaningless. Mean while players that choose to opt in will just dive in head first.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of his video and the "Ultimate is the only challenging content" narrative he's got people regurgitating.

I just listed off several fights and pieces of content that are regarded as "more challenging" without even mentioning the current Savage which P3S is widely regarded as tough fight to clear.

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None of those fights are remotely challenging to an Ultimate raider.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I think the Doomsaying is really just on the forums. I don't see it in the game at all. Not in NN, linkshells, FC, parties I join for farming, BLU, maps or hunts. They are all having fun.

I've seen people talk about their frustrations about healers in the game for years but that's about it.

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I've done a little doomsaying in game and it's always met with people telling me to unsub

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Name one Savage or Extreme in Shadowbringers > Endwalker that compares to Kefka, Living Liquid and Thordan. Savage absolutely has gotten easier. When was the last time we saw a third tier fight take world progression teams a week to clear?

Living Liquid was nearly 8 years ago, God Kefka was over 4 years ago, Cruise chaser was a joke if your group had any idea how to hold and push DPS to skip key phases, oh and it was over 5 years ago. E4S Titan? Nearly 3 years ago and no, it don't agree that it was a particularly challenging fight either. Fatebreaker? Sure that's more recent but ehh the hardest part was right at the end and again, large parts of it could be skipped with gear.

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People keep giving Alex some unrivaled amount of focus as if it was so incredibly difficult to do. Most of Alex difficulty was attributed to slightly more complicated game systems and an extremely novel playerbase with relatively no experience. Were talking about a playerbase that struggled to clear Steps of Faith and complained about it till they nerfed it 3x times. If Alex was released today with the current experienced playerbase, it would get stomped just as fast as a current tier savage, and Living Liquid in particular would go down just as fast as P3S at all player levels. No savage content from here on out will EVER take a week to clear, especially not a Tier 3 fight. To not understand that point is straight folly on anyone's part.

The toolbox strats, the marks, the ACT queues, were all huge items that didn't exist much at the time to oversimplify all of those mechanics. Hell when I had the chance to go back and do the BLU achievement, the strats available now diminished those fights even more than what was available at the time.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

It shouldn't be murdering them like the endgame does, but it should at least give them an idea of what to expect IMO.

A great example of this was ARR's endgame dungeons and the way in which they snuck in baby training wheels versions of the Hardmode Primals that followed.

Meanwhile now we get dungeons where it's often best to flat out ignore the bulk of the fight and just beat the boss up. 24 man is even worse with zero reason to put in any effort or care beyond your own pride or OCD.

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You REALLY reaching here. When was the last time you went into an ARR dungeon? They are all braindead the same as current ones. The ONLY dungeon that was truly dangerous was Aurum Vale (pre-change) and only really the first room because you can get roped into battles with other mobs mid pull. Nothing present in that dungeon prepares you for the EX's (of the time). You have a worse example when you go into post ARR dungeons. All of them are MORE easy than current ones. The second and third Nier raids destroy people left and right to this day. You don't need much reason for any 24-man nor is it a stepping stone for extremes or savages. It's simply not meant to be.

The only thing that has changed really, is the classes themselves and the balancing of them in relation to the content. Anyone's opinion can go either way on the subject. The forums would have you believe every change they make to a job is terrible, but the larger portion of the playerbase has welcomed most changes among every job.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Extremes are good stepping stones into savage. Specially the EW extremes, they are not very difficult.

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These two statements conflict with each other. EX is supposed to be midcore content, how can they midcore if "they're not very difficult"? They need to be moderately difficult, not simply follow the Dorito.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

None of those fights are remotely challenging to an Ultimate raider.

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To be fair, Ultimate is tuned for the best of the best. The only piece of content that will be "difficult" to people who down ultimates is literally other ultimates. They have implemented challenging things before though. Like the title achievements to Palace and HoH. You could know how to execute around the RNG and still get played by a single bad GCD or Trap and ruin a whole run. Not alot of Ultimate raiders have that achievement. Perfect example of something that is difficult but people turn a blind eye to.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

Would you be happier if instead I said heavily unnecessary and absolutely badly designed for the content the game has? Or you're gonna white knight that too like you do on every other post where people criticize the game despite the amount of proof supporting said critics?

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There's the white knight comment. Been waiting for it. God forbid folks disagree or defend the game in ANY sort of way. That's against the rules here I guess. I've already stated NUMEROUS times the game could use work and isn't perfect. I just don't feel the game is on death row like some others do.
The term useless isn't an accurate statement by any means hence why I called it out (something being possible without doesn't mean that thing is useless), but I guess that's a crime too. The fact you resort to calling me a white knight simply because I'm not on the xiv hate train is sad.

I highly doubt YoshiP is gonna opt to listen to folks attacking their own community

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

There's the white knight comment. Been waiting for it. God forbid folks disagree or defend the game in ANY sort of way. That's against the rules here I guess. I've already stated NUMEROUS times the game could use work and isn't perfect. I just don't feel the game is on death row like some others do.
The term useless isn't an accurate statement by any means hence why I called it out (something being possible without doesn't mean that thing is useless), but I guess that's a crime too. The fact you resort to calling me a white knight simply because I'm not on the xiv hate train is sad.

I highly doubt YoshiP is gonna opt to listen to folks attacking their own community

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I'm calling you a white knight not because the hate train or whatever but because your "arguments" for those critics are for the most part or answers that miss the point entirely or simply play them down either with sarcasm or with the "loud minority" argument. Your answers don't come as someone willling to discuss anything and/or give a valuable point of view to the matter or if not please tell me how:

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Don't think you know what the word useless really means

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or

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Well the folks who have issues are just a loud minority. Can't imagine it ever having a huge impact

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or

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Then I have to ask...why not take your time and spend it there instead of complaining about the same thing here everyday? I'll never understand why folks spend so much time around things they don't like. You want xiv to change, you've said as such 100 times now. Move on to greener pastures

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Provide anything of value to the discussions that were held.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

People keep giving Alex some unrivaled amount of focus as if it was so incredibly difficult to do. Most of Alex difficulty was attributed to slightly more complicated game systems and an extremely novel playerbase with relatively no experience.

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Eh, fights were faster paced, healing was much more reliant on cast times and there was plenty of janky mechanics that were ready to wipe you if you weren't absolutely on the ball. Even cheese mechanics such as Throttle haven't been seen again. Was it a cheap trick to inflate the difficulty of the fight? Sure. Sudo wasn't afraid to get dirty.

Sure it's fair to say that we were less experienced back then, but we were no less sharp. Whilst the scrubs were whining about Steps of Faith, the people I ran with were merrily 7 manning Coils, Thordan etc for sales without any of the modern day account sharing BS you see now.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

The toolbox strats, the marks, the ACT queues, were all huge items that didn't exist much at the time to oversimplify all of those mechanics. Hell when I had the chance to go back and do the BLU achievement, the strats available now diminished those fights even more than what was available at the time.

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Sure toolbox wasn't a thing, but that didn't stop the theory crafting and strategising. Solitude and Exordium's Strats were both things to behold. ACT trickery was every bit the thing back then too, the difference is that you couldn't just go and download a readymade solution for everything like you can today. You had to knuckle down and do it within your FC.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

You REALLY reaching here. When was the last time you went into an ARR dungeon? They are all braindead the same as current ones. The ONLY dungeon that was truly dangerous was Aurum Vale (pre-change) and only really the first room because you can get roped into battles with other mobs mid pull. Nothing present in that dungeon prepares you for the EX's (of the time). You have a worse example when you go into post ARR dungeons. All of them are MORE easy than current ones. The second and third Nier raids destroy people left and right to this day. You don't need much reason for any 24-man nor is it a stepping stone for extremes or savages. It's simply not meant to be.

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I think you're missing the point here sir. ARR dungeons aren't a challenge with today's toolkits and inflated ilvls. They absolutely were much more of a test than any dungeon we see today in so many different ways. Lets look at a few of the points I'm trying to refer to.

First off, Aurum Vale. Remember Coin Counter? Glower was the training wheels version of Landslide that shared a similar lack of a clear telegraph. The key difference being that it punished you with paralysis rather than trying to throw you off the side. He also cleaved his tank buster.

Next up, Demon Wall, remember doing that in ilvl 60-70 gear? The Bees were a serious threat and the dance had to be respected because healers couldn't sustain fools through the debuffs for long back then. I'd argue that the line dance further reinforced the notion that you needed to take ground markers seriously or you were going to die.

Lastly, Anantaboga. A honest to goodness Dungeon boss that would merrily one shot you if you tried to ignore mechanics and had a juicy enrage if you didn't have the damage. Hiding behind pillars to avoid a central 2hr style AoE in the middle? Don't forget Plague Dance, a mechanic that punished you for dropping it close to other players or statues. It was pretty much a more obvious version of Friction. Yep, Garuda says hi /

I whole heartedly agree on endgame dungeons beyond 2.1 though. SE lost their nerve on them after Pharos Sirius. The thing is, modern dungeons might well be more complex than what we used to see but does that complexity really amount to anything when you can simply ignore the vast majority of it right from release? Take Stigma-4. Let every single add self destruct, ignore the lot of them. It's the quickest way to clear. Meanwhile, simply ignoring adds back in 2.0 dungeons in relevant gear would get you overwhelmed and wiped sharpish. Because they actually did damage. Sure we get the occasional modern outlier such as PeaceKeeper, but bosses that will merrily one shot people who aren't paying attention irrespective of how much overheating their healer is willing to throw at them are a distant minority now.

Going back and trying them now isn't even remotely close to how they were in Darklight gear at best back in the day.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

I'm calling you a white knight not because the hate train or whatever but because your "arguments" for those critics are for the most part or answers that miss the point entirely or simply play them down either with sarcasm or with the "loud minority" argument. Your answers don't come as someone willling to discuss anything and/or give a valuable point of view to the matter or if not please tell me how:



or


or



Provide anything of value to the discussions that were held.

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Ah you cherry pick 3 things I've said but won't pull up other things that WOULD fit your criteria. The first one is to point out you're using the word useless falsely IMO. Call it what you want but the truth IS that it's a loud minority. Most people prefer to spend thier time playing rather than entertaining the echo chamber that's the OF.
And let's say those quotes don't "provide anything of value". How does that equal white knighting? At least TRY to be consistent and make sense dude.

I also love when you people call out sarcasm when it's folks who don't agree with you doing as such but it's never called out when folks you agree with do it. And if you feel I'm apparently down playing issues here I can rightfully say people are over blowing issues. 2 sides, same coin BUT ofc as I've seen folks say here before, it's ok for people to overblow issues. Either both are ok or neither are.

You may not like or agree with what I say but don't twist it in bad faith to prove a point.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Ah you cherry pick 3 things I've said but won't pull up other things that WOULD fit your criteria.

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I just picked 3 things in the latest 2-3 days that showed exactly that, if you were so willing to discuss the game as you said I woudn't have found so many in so little time

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Call it what you want but the truth IS that it's a loud minority. Most people prefer to spend thier time playing rather than entertaining the echo chamber that's the OF.
And let's say those quotes don't "provide anything of value". How does that equal white knighting? At least TRY to be consistent and make sense dude.

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Cause a lot of those arguments were dismissed by the devs themselves long time ago yet some still use them to defend the game:
https://i.gyazo.com/6fd47a457ff6cc06...fafd860274.png
(From the presentation about what they learnt about the 1.0 disaster)

Assuming those who are silent agree that the game is fine is naive to say the least

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I also love when you people call out sarcasm when it's folks who don't agree with you doing as such but it's never called out when folks you agree with do it.

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Those folks didn't reply to my argument, as simple as that

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And if you feel I'm apparently down playing issues here I can rightfully say people are over blowing issues. 2 sides, same coin BUT ofc as I've seen folks say here before, it's ok for people to overblow issues. Either both are ok or neither are.

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Say it, but bring arguments to the table, in the same way when I or others say how badly designed healers are we try to bring facts like logs, cpm, or proofs of low heal requirements... Don't bring the stupidity that is the "tHeN UnSUb" argument or say they're a loud minority because, this may surprise you, the majority is just a bunch of minorities together and if we push them out, even if each group leaves for different reasons, then the majority will eventually dissapear.

I'm pretty sure the heavy doomposting is relatively new. I distinctly remember heavy complaining, but nothing this heavily negative during SB or ShB. Not sure what caused it, but man it's pretty annoying, especially when numerous doomposts are about things we've had in this game for many years. Like...I'm sorry, but if you're going to doompost, at least post about something relatively new, not things we've been dealing with since BEFORE the game got a heavy surge of players.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

I just picked 3 things in the latest 2-3 days that showed exactly that

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You could probably find more if you looked through their post history, they're consistent.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Name one Savage or Extreme in Shadowbringers > Endwalker that compares to Kefka, Living Liquid and Thordan. Savage absolutely has gotten easier. When was the last time we saw a third tier fight take world progression teams a week to clear?

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I heard Shiva was pretty rough, but in saying that, I know that I'll get a chorus of people saying "it wasn't that difficult" because they're salty and insecure over all the Light Rampant wipes.

I never once said all silent folks agree the game is fine. Im saying its a loud minority that are complaining rn. That is a fact. Doesnt matter what you think there. Most players arent here doing what youre doing.

And sorry but no, regardless if those folks are commenting on your stuff or not, you either stay consistent with sarcasm being an issue or admit your bias.

As far as the last part, most here havent even resorted to just outright saying "just unsub". Yall take the few who have done that and act like more are saying it than is true. Ive said before to give your feedback THEN unsub until the game provides what you want. Money talks more than forum feedback imo but both together is the best way to do it. Again I bring up the loud minority in the OF because thats the facts. Outside of here NOONE knows exactly how many have issues. I can only say the community seems far more positive everywhere else and im not the 1st in here to notice this).

Ive never once said healing requirements arent low, nor have I ever said healers are great or in a good state. Ive said before I miss healing from back in SB. I mained Ast back then. These days I personally just dont find it boring like others do. But say that and the "how is spamming one button not boring" folks come in and it goes south from there. But in regards to this here, I only stated they arent useless. Others have brought up that full tank parties can clear most content in the game and I said something on the lines of "then that isnt just a healer issue, thatd mean all roles outside of tanking are useless by that logic". Not once have I tried to refute hard data. Seein said data and saying things are then useless is your opinion based on said data. Some of us see that and the take away is healing really isnt always needed per evidence yet it still has its place therefore it has a use. You see it in game everyday and id be willing to bet most parties still take a healer with them no matter what it is. Full tank/full dps/tank n dps parties do happen but nowhere near on the same scale. Again just 2 different opinions based on the same data.

This stuff isnt as cut n dry as some make it seem. EW's story is bad/good-Opinions EW's content has been good/bad-Opinions. The game is on a path to dying/the game is doing fine n thriving-Opinions. Thats all most of this is, opinions

(didnt reply with a quote, my bad)

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

I heard Shiva was pretty rough, but in saying that, I know that I'll get a chorus of people saying "it wasn't that difficult" because they're salty and insecure over all the Light Rampant wipes.

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IMHO Light Rampant was made worse than it needed to be by certain uptime strats. Granted the fight was a pretty legitimate DPS check so in some ways that was warranted.

As a healer main though? That fight was the most boring raiding experience I've ever had in my life. And that includes camping Ragefire back in Everquest. When the trash add phase is a far bigger heal check than any of the actual fight itself? Yuck. It was long and the DPS check was stern, that's about it really.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

I heard Shiva was pretty rough, but in saying that, I know that I'll get a chorus of people saying "it wasn't that difficult" because they're salty and insecure over all the Light Rampant wipes.

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Light Rampant was an obnoxious mechanic that was mostly exacerbated by the fact that the mechanic's visual and auditory information was all a blur of white and loud pinging. Mechanics are much easier to work a team through when someone dies, and you can immediately tell where the mistake was. Light Rampant was all PING! PINGPINGPINGPINGPING! *white light everywhere*....so who messed up?

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

how is spamming one button not boring

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I keep asking this question because I have yet to receive a satisfying answer for it. Cookie Clicker exists too. I swapped to DPS because healers have been dumbed down to an unacceptable state. And then they were dumbed down EVEN MORE. If FFXIV is going to try to engage me with just the W and the 1 key, then I have TV shows I can watch that command more attention than that.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

As a healer main though? That fight was the most boring raiding experience I've ever had in my life. And that includes camping Ragefire back in Everquest. When the trash add phase is a far bigger heal check than any of the actual fight itself? Yuck. It was long and the DPS check was stern, that's about it really.

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Ah see I swapped to RDM for that tier, MUCH more engaging experience than the hideous mess that is healing in this game. FFXIV healing jobs have the most embarrassing design I've ever seen for healers in an MMO.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I keep asking this question because I have yet to receive a satisfying answer for it. Cookie Clicker exists too. I swapped to DPS because healers have been dumbed down to an unacceptable state. And then they were dumbed down EVEN MORE. If FFXIV is going to try to engage me with just the W and the 1 key, then I have TV shows I can watch that command more attention than that.
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Well in my experience that's not all I'm doing when healing. (Thats a good way to get folks killed). So it never feels I'm just spamming one button. Being fair there doesn't need to be a satisfying answer to anyone other than said person playing. I've yet to be able to run any dungeon in EW as a healer pressing only one button

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Well in my experience that's not all I'm doing when healing. (Thats a good way to get folks killed). So it never feels I'm just spamming one button. Being fair there doesn't need to be a satisfying answer to anyone other than said person playing. I've yet to be able to run any dungeon in EW as a healer pressing only one button

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Then i guess it’s a skill difference or not knowing the job. In dungeons i literally have 100% uptime on my dps spell because i only need ogcd’s to heal on sage. Each big pull i just pop haima and kerachole on the tank and those two buttons are enough for the entire pull.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Well in my experience that's not all I'm doing when healing. (Thats a good way to get folks killed). So it never feels I'm just spamming one button. Being fair there doesn't need to be a satisfying answer to anyone other than said person playing. I've yet to be able to run any dungeon in EW as a healer pressing only one button

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I was leveling Scholar the other day in Vanaspati. We zoned in. The tank was a WAR. First thing he said was "Healer don't heal me", then repeated it in autotranslate. I decided to respect his wishes.

Nobody died. The entire dungeon was Art of War. Aetherflow. Art of War, Energy Drain. Art of War, Energy Drain. Art of War, Energy Drain. Art of War. Art of War. Art of War. Art of War. Art of War. Art of War. Oooo, boss time! Biolysis, Aetherflow. Broil, Energy Drain. Broil, Energy Drain. Broil, Energy Drain. Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil.

The. Entire. Dungeon.

That's all I'm doing most of the time when *I* am healing. Usually the tank is less skilled than that so I might need to weave one oGCD heal in between spamming 11111111111 over and over and over again. Ooo. Engaging.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I was leveling Scholar the other day in Vanaspati. We zoned in. The tank was a WAR. First thing he said was "Healer don't heal me", then repeated it in autotranslate. I decided to respect his wishes.

Nobody died. The entire dungeon was Art of War. Aetherflow. Art of War, Energy Drain. Art of War, Energy Drain. Art of War, Energy Drain. Art of War. Art of War. Art of War. Art of War. Art of War. Art of War. Oooo, boss time! Biolysis, Aetherflow. Broil, Energy Drain. Broil, Energy Drain. Broil, Energy Drain. Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil.

The. Entire. Dungeon.

That's all I'm doing most of the time when *I* am healing. Usually the tank is less skilled than that so I might need to weave one oGCD heal in between spamming 11111111111 over and over and over again. Ooo. Engaging.

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Yes, and its known that's Wars have a far bigger advantage in dungeons than other tanks. Not the best example. Difference here is I'm not going to be an ass to you about your experience because that's what it is. Your experience. What people find engaging will differ by the person. It's doesn't need to be any more complicated than that

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I was leveling Scholar the other day in Vanaspati. We zoned in. The tank was a WAR. First thing he said was "Healer don't heal me", then repeated it in autotranslate. I decided to respect his wishes.

Nobody died. The entire dungeon was Art of War. Aetherflow. Art of War, Energy Drain. Art of War, Energy Drain. Art of War, Energy Drain. Art of War. Art of War. Art of War. Art of War. Art of War. Art of War. Oooo, boss time! Biolysis, Aetherflow. Broil, Energy Drain. Broil, Energy Drain. Broil, Energy Drain. Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil.

The. Entire. Dungeon.

That's all I'm doing most of the time when *I* am healing. Usually the tank is less skilled than that so I might need to weave one oGCD heal in between spamming 11111111111 over and over and over again. Ooo. Engaging.

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I'd like to get WARs like that more often. I get the ones who never use ANY cooldown. It's miserable as hell as a SCH for that to happen, especially when the fool heavy pulls and is unable to use RI/BW a single time.

Im surprised they have yet to nerf Warriors. In fact, they should nerf all tanks to not have OP self-sustaining abilities, because that honestly kills the whole "trinity role" system this game is supposed to be going for. And I say this as a Warrior main. There's my hot take.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Yes, and its known that's Wars have a far bigger advantage in dungeons than other tanks. Not the best example. Difference here is I'm not going to be an ass to you about your experience because that's what it is. Your experience. What people find engaging will differ by the person. It's doesn't need to be any more complicated than that

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That advantage shouldn’t exist period though. That right there is a prime example of healers being unnecessary. Spamming 1 button 90% of a fight is objectively not engaging. Someone being worse at playing healer and spamming heals which isn’t optimal isn’t a solution lol nor does it mean the role is engaging.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Yes, and its known that's Wars have a far bigger advantage in dungeons than other tanks. Not the best example. Difference here is I'm not going to be an ass to you about your experience because that's what it is. Your experience. What people find engaging will differ by the person. It's doesn't need to be any more complicated than that

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Not a single one of the healers is designed in a way that's engaging to me. I'm "being an ass" because the entire role has been stupidified down into this dull monotonous nonsense, and at every turn the forums have someone saying "but it's fun for me!" Good for you, it's the most boring experience I've ever had healing in an MMO. Better not improve it at all, because some people have the experience of fun while I'm here pressing one button over and over and over and over and over again, and things need to be designed in a way that's mind-numbing for me in order to create that "fun". Apparently.

Negative-themed threads make for better clickbait. You're more likely to become concerned and engaged over 'Beloved MMO on its last legs - dev team sells Hissatsu: Kaiten off as an NFT' and '17 dirty secrets that Yoshi-p doesn't want you to know about real estate' than you are over 'Fight design considerations in improving healer engagement'.

There's a positive feedback loop in which low-effort doomthreads generate a lot of attention, which causes more people to make them for that Twitter adrenaline buzz. Couple this with a relative decrease in moderator presence from the tail end of Shadowbringers on and you generally have an environment where actual thoughtful discussion is replaced with an overabundance of emotion and shouting.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Im surprised they have yet to nerf Warriors. In fact, they should nerf all tanks to not have OP self-sustaining abilities, because that honestly kills the whole "trinity role" system this game is supposed to be going for. And I say this as a Warrior main. There's my hot take.

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I'd be 100% all for this change honestly. They kinda doubled down on it in EW

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I'd be 100% all for this change honestly. They kinda doubled down on it in EW

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Yeah, no. I like my Warrior just like it is, leave it OP.

When XI was this old, we got XIV. This time there's no progression on the horizon. At least XIV is getting a minor graphics update next expansion. The gameplay will still feel old hat, though. I wish they'd treat the next expansion like a new game in the FF series, not just a new story in an old game. Come up with new game design and progression systems for PvE like you did for PvP recently. Mix up the ratio of each type of content, the ways they relate to each other and the long-term reward system for doing them. Maybe not everything has to be a tightly-scripted encounter within a scripted instance that always plays out the same way.

I feel like gaming in general lost excitement going into this decade, not just FF XIV and not just MMOs. The latest console generation had a weird launch with almost no new exclusive titles between both XSX and PS5, and hasn't picked up a lot of steam in the 18 months since. The rest of 2022 is looking quite dry until we get into Q4, then we'll see if Forspoken and Starfield are any good.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Not a single one of the healers is designed in a way that's engaging to me. I'm "being an ass" because the entire role has been stupidified down into this dull monotonous nonsense, and at every turn the forums have someone saying "but it's fun for me!" Good for you, it's the most boring experience I've ever had healing in an MMO. Better not improve it at all, because some people have the experience of fun while I'm here pressing one button over and over and over and over and over again, and things need to be designed in a way that's mind-numbing for me in order to create that "fun". Apparently.

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Didn't say it can't be improved...I swear yall are so caught up in your emotions over this that you're seeing things that aren't there. Calm down and think before you type. Someone that has fun with healers now can still have fun when there's more to do like say the SB days. You're doing to much

No one is advocating to keep healers as is

Observed the opposite; people defending Yoshi P and team like they can do no wrong.

2 issues, close to my heart as examples:

1. Housing
After nearly 10 years of the limited ward housing being a mess, there are still a lot of people saying not to criticize SE and "wait and see". That "we are not privy to what goes on behind the scenes."

A lot of us here are working adults. Imagine telling our bosses, we can not find a scalable long-term solution that will make most of our client base happy after nearly 10 years.

But I guess Yoshi P can cry a little more and white knights will rush out for defense.

2. Healers
Lol, when the game devs give so little thought to an entire role, that none of them have a healer main.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Like...I'm sorry, but if you're going to doompost, at least post about something relatively new, not things we've been dealing with since BEFORE the game got a heavy surge of players.

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Maybe because those are the valid problems that the devs keep ignoring for years? Hence why the same criticisms keep appearing. For example: job homogenization, healer engagement being non-existent, housing problems, hrothgar still need fantasia to change hairstyles. It took them years to finally address dark knight, because people doesn't stop complaining about it.

And let's be honest here, if people came up with new things to complain about, they'll be hit with "omg, you're complaining just for the sake of complaining"

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Didn't say it can't be improved...I swear yall are so caught up in your emotions over this that you're seeing things that aren't there. Calm down and think before you type. Someone that has fun with healers now can still have fun when there's more to do like say the SB days. You're doing to much

No one is advocating to keep healers as is

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I've been complaining about the hideous design applied to healers for six years. It hasn't improved. In fact, it's continued in the direction that I've opposed the entire time. You know who's advocating healers stay as-is? The developers. I'm so beyond bored of "well yeah they could be improved I suppose, but they're still fun now!" God, please no. No they're not. They're embarrassingly designed. The kits have less nuance than some phone games. I'm utterly uninterested in hunting for faint praise to hand the developers. Where's the interactivity? It's not there. You have a single boring GCD that you cast literally hundreds of times in any given instance if you've gained any skill in the role at all. It only gets worse the more skilled you get. Healers are currently designed to be easy queue pops by driveby players who aren't interested in actually playing them at all. They're designed by DPS mains for DPS mains. There are no procs. The deepest interaction in the kits is "this ability makes your healing spells heal slightly more for 10 seconds". The skill ceiling is an inch above the floor.

"Calm down" indeed. They've given a lobotomy to my favorite role with no signs of stopping for half a decade, and I'm sick and tired of people defending this horsecrap.

The devil is in the details.

If you were to make a post on how healer gameplay is generally unsatisfying, a lot of people will agree with you. That's the low hanging fruit. Nobody is going to 'defend' against that statement. The real prize is higher up: you'll have a lot harder time getting a complete consensus on what the central problem is, be it:
1) a lackluster offensive toolkit
2) an overabundance of healing and defensive cooldowns between tanks and healers
3) lack of incoming damage/variability in fight design
4) reduced opportunities to carry (i.e. raidwipe potential) or
5) relatively homogenous design and gameplay (why is every healer a caster?),
let alone proposed solutions. And that's really the level of detail that you need to engage at bare minimum.

What I find truly frightening is the fact that 'The idea that we need to DPS must go' is actually still a topic on the healer forum frontpage in May 2022. We occasionally used to see similar threads about 'the dangers of DPS tanking' at the absolute latest up until mid-Heavensward, circa 2016 or so, before the tanking community unilaterally reached consensus on it and laughed any further 'debate' on the subject off the forums. If we can't even agree on what the core design goals and direction should be from the playerbase, how does anyone find a solution? So things remain the same.

I think that there's a lot of passion, but that's not enough on its own. You need someone who knows how to actually write. That passion needs to be supported by well structured and thought-out post(s) that people can rally and formulate a consensus behind. And while many people want their voices to be heard and be the one to make that golden thread that builds the necessary momentum for change, not everyone is equally able to express themselves with clarity, so you get a mire of duplicate complaint threads that don't provide anything besides raw emotion.

There are some very articulate regulars in the healer forums (at least one of whom is lurking in here). I have no personal stake in the issue myself (healer is by far my least played role in this game, largely because I dislike MMO healing's pace in general and find healing truly shines in a faster, more reactive PvP environment), but I'd really be interested to see one of them pick up their keyboard and write a unifying thread on the topic and get it cross-posted on to somewhere like /r/ffxivdiscussion or the main subreddit. Not just for the upvotes, but to build an actual conversation on the subject. If we managed to get Living Dead changed using this approach, I'm pretty sure anything is possible. I'd offer to do it for you, except it's not my place nor my battle to fight.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Maybe because those are the valid problems that the devs keep ignoring for years? Hence why the same criticisms keep appearing. For example: job homogenization, healer engagement being non-existent, housing problems, hrothgar still need fantasia to change hairstyles. It took them years to finally address dark knight, because people doesn't stop complaining about it.

And let's be honest here, if people came up with new things to complain about, they'll be hit with "omg, you're complaining just for the sake of complaining"

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If the game has not died to these problems before now, it isn't dying to them now. There are legit problems, but a "OMG the game is dying because they won't give healers more damage options" is a completely stupid argument. That's not worth doomposting over...it's worth going, "Hey, give healers more stuff to do in downtime like how you gave AST cards to worry about!" Because again, if we've had this problem for more than 4 years, it isn't killing the game anytime soon, not when we've had a huge surge in players just last year.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

If the game has not died to these problems before now, it isn't dying to them now. There are legit problems, but a "OMG the game is dying because they won't give healers more damage options" is a completely stupid argument. That's not worth doomposting over...it's worth going, "Hey, give healers more stuff to do in downtime like how you gave AST cards to worry about!" Because again, if we've had this problem for more than 4 years, it isn't killing the game anytime soon, not when we've had a huge surge in players just last year.

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The game is not dying, but it is heading towards a direction that will make the game or break the game soon, specially with as many frustrations as players have had with in the past couple of expansions.

And people want to say everything is fine because look at this big surge of new players that came last year. That surge had absolutely nothing to do with any decision or change that FFXIV made. That surge really just showed the power that social influencers have over there audiences. SE, Yoshi P, and the dev team did nothing to cause that random surge to happen, it happened through third party means.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

The game is not dying, but it is heading towards a direction that will make the game or break the game soon, specially with as many frustrations as players have had with in the past couple of expansions.

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I'm going to be honest, I have heard the "game will die" nonsense since ARR. I will not, nor will ever believe it until they pull something so idiotic that it will kill the game, because I've been here for 10 years and it still hasn't happened. There have been massive missteps yes, with the handling of Gordias Savage (almost killed the raiding community) and the handling of Eureka Pagos (the population for the relic grind dwindled to almost nothing within a week). But there has been nothing so widespread to where the game has almost died. Something may come some day from NEW content, but the problems we have had now for years won't.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I've been complaining about the hideous design applied to healers for six years. It hasn't improved. In fact, it's continued in the direction that I've opposed the entire time. You know who's advocating healers stay as-is? The developers. I'm so beyond bored of "well yeah they could be improved I suppose, but they're still fun now!" God, please no. No they're not. They're embarrassingly designed. The kits have less nuance than some phone games. I'm utterly uninterested in hunting for faint praise to hand the developers. Where's the interactivity? It's not there. You have a single boring GCD that you cast literally hundreds of times in any given instance if you've gained any skill in the role at all. It only gets worse the more skilled you get. Healers are currently designed to be easy queue pops by driveby players who aren't interested in actually playing them at all. They're designed by DPS mains for DPS mains. There are no procs. The deepest interaction in the kits is "this ability makes your healing spells heal slightly more for 10 seconds". The skill ceiling is an inch above the floor.

"Calm down" indeed. They've given a lobotomy to my favorite role with no signs of stopping for half a decade, and I'm sick and tired of people defending this horsecrap.

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Take your emotions out on something else. You're getting upset because I simply have a different viewpoint. Being passionate is fine but you need to practice some restraint n poise seriously. Hop into a healer thread with your grievances as that'll be a much more suitable place for issues with said role. Pop off at the people there and let others who still enjoy the role as is do as such.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

There are some very articulate regulars in the healer forums (at least one of whom is lurking in here). I have no personal stake in the issue myself (healer is by far my least played role in this game, largely because I dislike MMO healing's pace in general and find healing truly shines in a faster, more reactive PvP environment), but I'd really be interested to see one of them pick up their keyboard and write a unifying thread on the topic and get it cross-posted on to somewhere like /r/ffxivdiscussion or the main subreddit. Not just for the upvotes, but to build an actual conversation on the subject. If we managed to get Living Dead changed using this approach, I'm pretty sure anything is possible. I'd offer to do it for you, except it's not my place nor my battle to fight.

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We've tried just that for years and they always get ignored.

Time to expand a little on my comments about SE needing to hire a healer designer. (After Stormblood Nerfs, pointing out there isn't even a job designer dedicated to each battle role)

The Healer Double Standard (After the Massive Stormblood Nerfs)

Summary of Healer Issues (Comprehensive list of a LOT of issues)

Basically: Stormblood was the breaking point for a LOT of veteran healers. We were told "Healers are being nerfed so we can rebuild them from the ground up" and that rebuild was worse than before.

Also, I've tried posting to the main subreddit, almost any actual discussion is downvoted into oblivion and the only stuff that gets upvoted are memes and art commissions.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Basically: Stormblood was the breaking point for a LOT of veteran healers. We were told "Healers are being nerfed so we can rebuild them from the ground up" and that rebuild was worse than before.

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Yeah. The "rebuilds" were basically just the devs taping and gluing the pieces of each job back together, and not with the good stuff. I do not envy healers right now at all.