It's time to hire dedicated Tank an Healer devs!

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Originally Posted by Melorie

And the encounter design made around bursts doesn't really help to solve this issue.

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This has been said by Yoshi numerous times but reality doesn't mesh with what he says.

Eden Savage wasn't clearable at min ilvl without significant healer dps.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

So I have a somewhat related question, but is there an MMO out there that does tank and healer classes RIGHT? Because in the beginning of ARR, Yoshi and Co. played a lot of WOW to see what made it addictive and fun and what features they could bring over to XIV. I'm just wondering if there's a game out there that really feels rewarding to play tank and healer classes.

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I never played much or any WoW, though I did sometimes watch others play so I had to consult my uncle and friends. They told me to Google "disc priest" which was considered one of the more "pure healers". One of the first skills I see is this one;
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=81749/atonement

I also counted ummm, between eight and ten deeps skills on priest just looking through the list of abilities they use to have. There is another spell called "Holy Nova" that detonates a second time for 50% damage if hits more then three targets. This reinforces what he said that even in old wow he would always pull as big as he could.

Aion is the one I have more experience with! Two healers I am most familiar with are Cleric and Muse.
Locating ability lists for these classes has become quite the difficulty because the game is mostly gone.

Cleric had many many (over ten possibly twelve) deeps skills. Several of these were status effect placing dots that might lower enemy accuracy or defenses. They had a long cast powerful nuke capable of one shotting weaker stuffs (trash). They were even able to summon pets called a "holy spirit" that would deal damage while they healed or did other things including more damage. The cleric was even capable of tanking for limited periods of time if the main tanks all perished.

The muse required juggling between dps songs and healing songs amusingly considering the theme of FF14 at the times was called "The song of fire and ice". You were able to increase the potency of your heal or deeps song by allowing them to charge, up to three charges. If you released the spells early they would have reduced damage or healing effect so had to constantly make decisions. Can I charge this now for bigger heals or will it cause death?

Both healers had multiple ways to restore mana so doing damage was never issue.

Swtor, another one I am most familiar with has actual healer rotations. By this I am meaning that the order you use your healing spells in causes different effects to happen. Some healing provides charges for recovering mana when it crits or make other heals cast instantly. Sorcerer/Sage even has the ability to rapid heal by using a nuke dps skill. Each blast will do increased damage and healing up to three blasts. Mine healed for roughly 60-75k in a game where the average hp was 100k. It did this per blast.

We were expected to do damage during any downtime and I never once struggled to accomplish this. This is the first of any game I have ever played where support believes it should not have to deal damage. When asking family and friends they kinda balk at the idea that healers only heal. Even tanks were expected to put out reasonable damage to the point where in WoW my uncle would equip half deeps gear and spec partially into deeps talent trees as tank.

Healers managed, I managed, this is phenomenon unique to FF14 and not other mmos.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

So I have a somewhat related question, but is there an MMO out there that does tank and healer classes RIGHT? Because in the beginning of ARR, Yoshi and Co. played a lot of WOW to see what made it addictive and fun and what features they could bring over to XIV. I'm just wondering if there's a game out there that really feels rewarding to play tank and healer classes.

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It doesn't really make sense to compare other healers to FFXIV since FFXIV fight design is so... specific. That being said, I'm trying to remember the supports that I've played over the years in MMOs and mobas, and I'm struggling to think about one that was just healing healing healing and that's it. Each one of them had at least a side-thing going on that took their time - de-buffs & different types of buffs, cleasing de-buffs, managing mp or giving mp generation to party members, and most of them had some form of damage. I've never really encountered another class design that was about using a few of your powerful heals and then spamming one skill through your downtime in the way that FFXIV does. Which wouldn't be a problem if our downtime wasn't just pressing 1 button to DPS.

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Originally Posted by Melorie

It doesn't really make sense to compare other healers to FFXIV since FFXIV fight design is so... specific. That being said, I'm trying to remember the supports that I've played over the years in MMOs and mobas, and I'm struggling to think about one that was just healing healing healing and that's it. Each one of them had at least a side-thing going on that took their time - de-buffs & different types of buffs, cleasing de-buffs, managing mp or giving mp generation to party members, and most of them had some form of damage. I've never really encountered another class design that was about using a few of your powerful heals and then spamming one skill through your downtime in the way that FFXIV does. Which wouldn't be a problem if our downtime wasn't just pressing 1 button to DPS.

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This really is the crux of it. Like, in FFXI the Whm had to manage several buffs like protect, stone skin, haste; and then work in DoTs and situational buffs like resisting fire. There wasn’t a lot of DPS, but there was a lot to keep track of which was pretty satisfying.

I get why people want that, and I personally would prefer that kind of complexity, but I also understand the more complicated it becomes the fewer people want to play it….which is the main thing the devs are watching.

I mean, in 2.0 they tried to encourage players to do cnj/Whm by offering a mount, or adventurer in need bonuses for roulette..but still there were long queues.
now, even as a dps I rarely wait more than 5 min- for devs that is mission accomplished.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

now, even as a dps I rarely wait more than 5 min- for devs that is mission accomplished.

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You are most lucky then!

https://i.ibb.co/qCn2LfC/whathealerissue.png

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

You are most lucky then!

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Out of curiosity, what is your average queue time when you run DPS?

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Originally Posted by kaynide

This really is the crux of it. Like, in FFXI the Whm had to manage several buffs like protect, stone skin, haste; and then work in DoTs and situational buffs like resisting fire. There wasn’t a lot of DPS, but there was a lot to keep track of which was pretty satisfying.

I get why people want that, and I personally would prefer that kind of complexity, but I also understand the more complicated it becomes the fewer people want to play it….which is the main thing the devs are watching.

I mean, in 2.0 they tried to encourage players to do cnj/Whm by offering a mount, or adventurer in need bonuses for roulette..but still there were long queues.
now, even as a dps I rarely wait more than 5 min- for devs that is mission accomplished.

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Here’s the thing though. Shb was said(by the devs) to be the expansion where they spent the most time on the healers, yet it’s the expansion with the most controversial and negative results they’ve had to date. We haven’t really seen an influx of players wanting to play healer, so like at this point perhaps something needs to change? And what they’re doing isn’t actually working? It’s weird to me they continue to cull skills and dps each expansion and they aren’t seeing more positive feedback, but actually less. Yet despite this theyve still managed to dance around the idea of either giving healers more dps skills, or making raids require more healing.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I get why people want that, and I personally would prefer that kind of complexity, but I also understand the more complicated it becomes the fewer people want to play it….which is the main thing the devs are watching.

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But they have to start somewhere. Dumbing down everything in the name of being ""accessible"" and ""easy"" and erasing the whole learning curve for the entire role is not way of doing this. Try new things (*truly* new things instead of empty promises such as mobs hitting more that haven't been fullfilled), adjust as needed. They didn't release a healer last expansion in order to work on them and the only thing they did was transform all the downtime of the three classes into the same thing (except maybe AST but still, I'm not going to comment what they did on ast because it was a stab in my heart). People that want to play this role deserves to have fun and feel like they're progressing and getting rewarded for playing better. Try new options, adjust as needed - we've been asking for anything for years. Why only DPS mains are allowed to have layers of depth and optimization?
And as it been said over and OVER again, complexity is not the same as being dynamic, rewarding or having depth. It can't be that hard to have a big brain solution that can be adjusted for entry-level players to the class that isn't "spam the same button forever the better you get through all the classes of this particular role". FFXIV devs have the potential to do better than this.

I've never even seen this concept of "let's turn a class into a braindead thing if you put a little bit of time into it just so everyone else can have fun except the ones that take it seriously" in any other game. I can't believe that the same people that made FFXIV what is today aren't capable of having any other solution for this.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

You are most lucky then!

https://i.ibb.co/qCn2LfC/whathealerissue.png

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It's content and job dependent. I almost never sit in an exdr queue as a melee dps longer than 5 minutes. Same for ADR, NRR and Trials. 5/6/7 and ldr though? Oof.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Out of curiosity, what is your average queue time when you run DPS?

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Between family and friends and myself I would say hmm, roughly 12 - 20 minutes.

It does vary wildly at the times though! As someone stated it can also be duty dependent so those of us playing deeps wait much less for Alliance then we do for leveling (for reasons most obvious).

We can wait as little as five minutes or as long as thirty. Tank queues no longer appear to be instant anymore as many friends queue with one tank and will still wait more than five minutes sometimes. My queue as healer is never not instant, it is also always instant for those friends and family that play healers.

Sooooo for averages:

Deeps = 12 - 20 minutes or longer
Tank + Deeps = Five minutes average sometimes longer and occasionally still instant
Healer + Deeps = Almost always instant, longest I remember seeing twas one minute
Tank + Healer = Almost always instant, significantly faster than any other combination

Edit; I asked friend and she gave this to me for this.
https://i.ibb.co/LQF22Dh/waitinggame.png

The queue popped at about thirteen minutes and something.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Here’s the thing though. Shb was said(by the devs) to be the expansion where they spent the most time on the healers, yet it’s the expansion with the most controversial and negative results they’ve had to date. We haven’t really seen an influx of players wanting to play healer, so like at this point perhaps something needs to change? And what they’re doing isn’t actually working? It’s weird to me they continue to cull skills and dps each expansion and they aren’t seeing more positive feedback, but actually less. Yet despite this theyve still managed to dance around the idea of either giving healers more dps skills, or making raids require more healing.

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We don’t know the rubric they are judging what is a success for changes made. For some, myself included, dumbing down the job is a negative, but if it results in a net increase of healers overall, that might be all that matters to devs. Moreover, we are very vocal, being on the forums…

If more of your average joe player in game are doing healer, that signals more of a success to devs than a few disgruntled players on the internet.

I remember when queues for dps were well over 30 minutes. I haven’t seen that since HW.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

You are most lucky then!

https://i.ibb.co/qCn2LfC/whathealerissue.png

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This doesn’t tell us very much (no offense!)

The average time in queue depends very much on a lot of factors. What are you queuing for? Is it roulette (and therefore anything)? Is it for a very specific 50/60/70 dungeon? Is it current content? Is it Garuda, normal mode?

15 minutes is not that unreasonable for something super specific.

I admit there might be some longer waits on my alt (who is in ARR), but rarely is it the 30 or even 60 min I saw back in HW.

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Originally Posted by FrogDog

That's not how lilies work, they're a flat resource that you get one of every 30s. There really should be no "juggling" of regen and Medica II either. Regen goes on tank, and if you need to heal on the move or do an AoE heal there are ogcds that you would go through before Regen or Medica II ideally.

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TIFO. Thumbs up for you- no sarcasm at all. I had been going all this time thinking they were charging based on actual amount healed during combat and not just time in combat…which seems much more bland.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

We don’t know the rubric they are judging what is a success for changes made. For some, myself included, dumbing down the job is a negative, but if it results in a net increase of healers overall, that might be all that matters to devs.

I remember when queues for dps were well over 30 minutes. I haven’t seen that since HW.

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Well to be fair the game has grown a lot since HW and even SB. There's no data to tell if the changes to queue times are because the combat changes in general, a good chunk of the playerbase nowadays wasn't even here at HW times and the game did get more popular because their friend next door is in shambles, the current expansion was praised (for it's history, mind you, because the content formula remains the same and I doubt ign&cia even care about combat changes when reviewing stuff) and you have a good free trial as well as a great marketing strategy. So we also can't say that if the queue times are what they are is solely because of the changes that made healers into glare-spammers.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

This doesn’t tell us very much (no offense!)

The average time in queue depends very much on a lot of factors. What are you queuing for? Is it roulette (and therefore anything)? Is it for a very specific 50/60/70 dungeon? Is it current content? Is it Garuda, normal mode?

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No offense assumed! Umm, I would say polling the friends and from own experience roulette queues can actually be much longer on the average.

The first was for Vale the second for Haukke, though if anyone in here wishes I can collect many screenshots from all types of roulettes and duties to corroborate.

There is much variance though so I must select some average. I have seen nothing sixty minutes though thank the twelve! That sounds like madness! It feels bad enough..

Some friends/family reported queue times longer then twenty minutes for prime hours, especially as deeps going into Castrum (msq) and Prae towards the end of their journey.

This is on NA - Primal if any are curious about this. Much of this is for ARR as that is where they are in story. Me and my partner noticed even longer times queueing for Heavensward and Stormblood content though so am uncertain.

I'd love some more DPS skills or Utility skills of frequent use to break the monotony on WHM/SCH/SGE. Anything that helps break the Glarebroil spam during healing downtime (Which according to the devs seems to want to be as prevalent as it was in ShB.)

SGE is heralded as this "Technical damage oriented healer" but it has the same number of buttons to use in downtime as the other healers. Phlegma III helps break the spam up, but its only once every 45 seconds. (Like an Assize you can't weave) AST cards at least happen every 30.
Also by it's design with Kardia, you want more than ever to keep using your nuke constantly and Toxikon II is a movement skill. Not much variety when it comes to damage. It looks dangerously like another Glarebroil mage.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

No offense assumed! Umm, I would say polling the friends and from own experience roulette queues can actually be much longer on the average.

The first was for Vale the second for Haukke, though if anyone in here wishes I can collect many screenshots from all types of roulettes and duties to corroborate.

There is much variance though so I must select some average. I have seen nothing sixty minutes though thank the twelve! That sounds like madness! It feels bad enough..

Some friends/family reported queue times longer then twenty minutes for prime hours, especially as deeps going into Castrum (msq) and Prae towards the end of their journey.

This is on NA - Primal if any are curious about this. Much of this is for ARR as that is where they are in story. Me and my partner noticed even longer times queueing for Heavensward and Stormblood content though so am uncertain.

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Queuing for a specific thing will always take longer on average. It seems like the algorithm takes some time to pull people from roulettes to help you out.

Roulettes though? Those queues are lightning fast compared to what we had in HW or even Stormlood.

+1 from me

Its staggering just how poorly treated the tanks and healers are. The job devs are blind to feedback ("We haven't seen any feedback about making blood weapon have stacks") at the best of times and actively ignore it at worst ("We can't think of anything to improve scholar")

Their model of "healers only heal" is at odds with the battle design. The regen/barrier healer push they made is pointless, healers are direly lacking in dps, buffs and debuffs. Basically anything that makes the massive amount of time when they don't need to heal interesting

Tanks have virtually no tanking responsibilities anymore (bosses auto position, tank busters are increasingly rare, tank swap mechanics are actively ignored most of the time), three of them have the exact same press a key 5 times (shb) or 3 times (EW) mechanics.

Both roles also have absurd amounts of homgenisation and at least 1 job that is desperate to get an identity back.


Its on record somewhere that the job designers dislike developing tanks and healers. So lets get some in that do. Lets get someone who can make tanks actually tank and healers be fun dual role specialists like they were from ARR-hw (whm)/SB (ast/sch)

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Its staggering just how poorly treated the tanks and healers are. The job devs are blind to feedback ("We haven't seen any feedback about making blood weapon have stacks") at the best of times and actively ignore it at worst ("We can't think of anything to improve scholar")

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I haven't seen a lot of talk about blood weapon other than occasional mentions that would be easy to miss. I can't disagree with them about scholar really, what is there to really add to it? Yet another heal?

If they can't think of anything to improve an existing job in a 2+ year time span (mainly because of a mechanics strait jacket constraining what they can do), you don't see an issue with that? Either their activities are spread too thin or they need some new blood. If they can innovate enough to add new jobs, I don't see why the can't give some love to the existing ones. They certainly have been able to do so for dps.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I haven't seen a lot of talk about blood weapon other than occasional mentions that would be easy to miss. I can't disagree with them about scholar really, what is there to really add to it? Yet another heal?

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Lets see how about
-making selene and eos distinct again (whm has stun ast did once till it was taken away for no discernable reason, no healer has a silence now and selene had a silence)
-giving back shadowflare (damage and a slow and a good use of aetherflow)
-something not healing related tied to the fae gauge (which is now used for a single action low in the healing priority)
-Returning rouse and changing the level 80 capstone to something distinct (its literally rouse but glitchy)
-A debuff that lowers incoming damage like eye for an eye once did (eye for an eye was finicky with a 20% chance, but it was vital against certain bosses)
-making dissipation NOT kill the fairy

and all that is without mentioning its dot class identity it once had which should never have been taken.

All the healers need dps actions. Sage at the very least needs just a single potency change- toxikon to at least double dosis' potency. Then its gcd loop will not be 1,1,1,1,1,1,1 like the others are rn which is incredibly unpopular.

Sch gets its dot mage returned. Whm can have an elemental rotation with light magic finishers. Astro can get a couple of proc based attacks and ogcds. That leaves sage with its charge system.

I don't even play sch much out of playstyle preference. Never really touched it past 54 back in HW since I fell in love with astro at that time and quit healing in 5.1 but even I can see just how shit its kit is nowadays

Healers are green dps, mitigators, buffers and debuffers. Not cure bots which is what SE made them into in shb

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

-making selene and eos distinct again (whm has stun ast did once till it was taken away for no discernable reason, no healer has a silence now and selene had a silence)

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Making it distinct again would be pointless because people find the optimal one and use that. That seemed like the reason they were made the same.

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-giving back shadowflare (damage and a slow and a good use of aetherflow)

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Damage spells aren't being added to other healers so it makes sense that it wouldn't be added to scholar. Shadowflare was a bit annoying with the way it was casted too.

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I don't even play sch much out of playstyle preference. Never really touched it past 54 back in HW since I fell in love with astro at that time and quit healing in 5.1 but even I can see just how shit its kit is nowadays

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To each their own, scholar is my favorite healer and a lot of people I've talked to feel the same way.

For me scholar is interesting but sometimes it feels like there are… gaps? Might be because I’m not even close to max level tho but at the same time, I don’t have it with my whm which isn’t much higher. In a way I feel it’s the healer which they could go the craziest with, both from a toolkit pov and story pov with being a tactician. I’ve not played it before so I can’t comment on gameplay years back but from what I understood they used to have bane? To me it’d be awesome if they got dots and bane back, have AoW extend dot duration with a similar dr in a way as Holy (say 4-2-1 seconds extended, 7 total), and change the sound effect on AoW while they are at it (it is about as exciting as a vacuum cleaner eating a sock atm). Keep the one heal fairy, introduce an offensive fairy which gives you for example a 25% dps buff but a 35% healing debuff and give some fun dps abilities to the fairy. I think that way you’d avoid button bloat but still make the gameplay between the two different versions fundamentally different. One version focused on healing and shielding while throwing in dps in between and the other version more risky, both for solo and group play but an interesting option for those who enjoy a challenge and a more offensive healer.

I can see quite a few reasons why this would never happen, I’m just writing it down for fun and there’s probably a million issues with it :D

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Making it distinct again would be pointless because people find the optimal one and use that. That seemed like the reason they were made the same.

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From what I can tell, the way they keep screwing up the response time for pet actions, the philosophy of a below-ground level of skill floor for the sake of accessibility, and the removal of "synergy from the role" in favor of making "synergy" the defining aspect of Dancer, are bigger reasons as to why they removed Selene's skills.
Otherwise, SCHs would still have a single target silence (which was difficult to use because of pet responsiveness), an AoE Esuna (which required you to make the choice of using Selene over Eos, which made healing just an eensy bit harder since you didn't have the AoE regen, convalescence, or that magic damage mitigation), and an AoE haste (which is synergy).

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Damage spells aren't being added to other healers so it makes sense that it wouldn't be added to scholar. Shadowflare was a bit annoying with the way it was casted too.

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AST is getting a few, actually.

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To each their own, scholar is my favorite healer and a lot of people I've talked to feel the same way.

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I'm sure that's true, but that doesn't mean that the design cannot be improved.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Making it distinct again would be pointless because people find the optimal one and use that. That seemed like the reason they were made the same.

Damage spells aren't being added to other healers so it makes sense that it wouldn't be added to scholar. Shadowflare was a bit annoying with the way it was casted too.

To each their own, scholar is my favorite healer and a lot of people I've talked to feel the same way.

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A damage spell has been added to another healer. Astros got its new star shower attack at level 90. Furthermore, puddle based attacks in case you missed it are getting an improvement to how they are cast. Check out the recent live letter.

Go check out the healer forums and you'll see just how much sch's miss their old kit.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ly-do-with-SCH
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ch-the-Scholar.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-healer-issues

The biggest complaint around healers as it stands, and asked several times in the media tour is "Can healers get more damage buttons"
SE's lack of healer designers is testament to this.
If a tank or dps were reduced to 1 dot and 1 nuke, there would be an uproar. There's no reason this should be the case with healers and it has to stop, and all the other problems with healers get looked at too

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Originally Posted by Nishira

SNIP

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Yeah, AoW is a huge lackluster imo. I'm not even talking about potency here, but the sound, the effects... It doesn't feel good to use it. I seriously can't stand doing dungeons with it because that AoE is just... ugh, bad.

I also feel that Scholar has been having an identity crisis, not unlike summoner had I suppose. You have the fairy, and you are the "i have a pet" healer, but it doesn't really feel this way. The fairy gauge is borderline useless and feels clunky, I honestly forget about it all the time. The fairy response is horrible, you have almost 0 control towards it, and the tactician aspect of the class feels a bit lost to me. You don't really feel like a tactician while playing and executing your skills. It feels really over the place, and the synergy of the kit looks really weak (the heals are very strong btw, i'm not really talking about balance here) to me even when compared to other healers, let alone another class.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

Queuing for a specific thing will always take longer on average. It seems like the algorithm takes some time to pull people from roulettes to help you out.

Roulettes though? Those queues are lightning fast compared to what we had in HW or even Stormlood.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

No offense assumed! Umm, I would say polling the friends and from own experience roulette queues can actually be much longer on the average.

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I am not attempting to be spicy here but this was covered in the first line of my post.

Edit;

We should not compare queue times from HW me thinks as FF14 was far less popular then! I did not even know about it.
Of course the queue will be shorter especially after influx of popular streamers moving from other games to FF14 then they were when the game was newer.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

I am not attempting to be spicy here but this was covered in the first line of my post.

Edit;

We should not compare queue times from HW me thinks as FF14 was far less popular then! I did not even know about it.
Of course the queue will be shorter especially after influx of popular streamers moving from other games to FF14 then they were when the game was newer.

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Well, if it was only dps playing, queues would still be just as long or longer. The fact queues are shorter means that more people are playing tanks and healers than before, because the ratios of them in content hasn't changes (still 1/1/2, or 2/2/4, or 3/6/15)

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Well, if it was only dps playing, queues would still be just as long or longer. The fact queues are shorter means that more people are playing tanks and healers than before, because the ratios of them in content hasn't changes (still 1/1/2, or 2/2/4, or 3/6/15)

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Well, yup? Of course there are more playing tanks and healers. There are more people playing on average then there were years ago for reasons most varied.

If 10% play healer, 20% play tank, then 70% play deeps out of 100,000 people then 2,000,000 join but the ratio of engagement remains the same you will end up with more tanks and healers then you started with. The averages however will remain bad.

Then you must consider that many are coming from other games where healers may be handled better thus inflating the above percentages. Given additional time queue times for deeps will stabilize at their usual way too long for all as new players move on to more engaging classes or quit.

It is far far easier to fill a queue if you have 200,000 healers to pull from then 10,000 especially if any of those healers are farming content for the many reasons they have to do so. Queues will be faster even if the above ratio remains stagnant.

Our queue times are quite long over here (me, family, friends). As I stated elsewhere though, I am done attempting to prove that there appears to be less playing healer and tank (especially healer). It is what it be and the arguments remain the same of which I cannot counter.

I state my queue time as anything non healer is long. The response is "my queue time is short as dps". I ask friends, they corroborate that their dps queue is also long. We kinda well, we just shrug and sit in our twenty minute queue because what else can I do?

So will end this as I did my last post. There appears to be a lack of interest in tanking and especially healing in FF14. Asking friends, they enjoy tanking more then healing for most content. Square has its collected data and has proven it will do with it as it pleases. My group will funnel into dps positions as they grow bored until they quit and there is little I can do about this. When they quit so shall I.

Swtor is coming out with new content, I have been getting back into Starcraft. I am due to try a second run of Disco Elysium. There are far better uses for my time then re-living the point and click adventure, "I have no mouth but I must scream." Hmm. Maybe I will play through that one again!

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Well, if it was only dps playing, queues would still be just as long or longer. The fact queues are shorter means that more people are playing tanks and healers than before, because the ratios of them in content hasn't changes (still 1/1/2, or 2/2/4, or 3/6/15)

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Well.... Again, given how the population grew massively, it's not surprising that you have people from all roles. As boring as healer is, the game that is basically living its peak, the queue times will obviously be shorter. Personally, I _only_ play healers, since I have started playing, that's the role I play every game that has it, since I started playing games (with a few exceptions). The combat changes just make me lack the motivation to stay invested into the game, log in to do dailies etc, since there's zero point for me to actually push myself to be a better player and explore my class - I'll only spam more glare as a reward for that.

Just like no one here can say that people are to stop playing healer altogether because of "healer in need", I also don't believe that they can say that the class design is completely fine because no one has had a long queue.

With how many people have complained about the healers for….a good amount of years, there’s obviously a problem with their design. Trying to say otherwise because of queues is just an absolutely flawed way of thinking. The thing is, if the tables were turned and it was the dps with flawed designs, they’d get immediate attention(which we’ve seen btw, as in ShB Mnk,Nin,and Smn got mini reworks.)

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The thing is, if the tables were turned and it was the dps with flawed designs, they’d get immediate attention(which we’ve seen btw, as in ShB Mnk,Nin,and Smn got mini reworks.)

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MNK's turnabout was FAR from immediate.
MNK also got lambasted for

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

a good amount of years

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If anything the story of Monk teaches us how slowly changes happen, even in the face of widespread community disgust.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

With how many people have complained about the healers for….a good amount of years, there’s obviously a problem with their design. Trying to say otherwise because of queues is just an absolutely flawed way of thinking. The thing is, if the tables were turned and it was the dps with flawed designs, they’d get immediate attention(which we’ve seen btw, as in ShB Mnk,Nin,and Smn got mini reworks.)

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AST got a mini rework too because of problems at the start of ShB, including reduced cast times, generating MP from playing cards, not being overwhelmed with cards anymore and Lord/Lady requiring less clicking.

All these changes between expansions are just to get it through to the next expansion though, because real changes require expansion-level redesigns and not quick patches that haven't had much thought, so we usually have to wait 2 years for things to get changed beyond small adjustments to things like potency and cast time.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

AST got a mini rework too because of problems at the start of ShB, including reduced cast times, generating MP from playing cards, not being overwhelmed with cards anymore and Lord/Lady requiring less clicking.

All these changes between expansions are just to get it through to the next expansion though, because real changes require expansion-level redesigns and not quick patches that haven't had much thought, so we usually have to wait 2 years for things to get changed beyond small adjustments to things like potency and cast time.

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Right, and yet, according to Yoshi P, ShB was the most time they spent on healers, however on release healers were an absolutely shitshow. Yes real changes require expansion level redesigns yet…again we aren’t seeing that with the healers. It’s the same old shit. No new dps rotation for healers, still the same one button spam.Now in Endwalker, it’s again, the same old shit. Nothings changed. Meanwhile smn got yet again, another rework. Mnk got big changes. But healers got shafted yet again.

Healers are dying for something more interactive with their kit, whether it be more DPS abilities or making healing more necessary. I have always wanted them to roll more support abilities into healers so they would have something to occupy their time when not healing that wasn't a singular DPS skill.

There are actually a lot of healers and tanks out there who don't queue up for roulettes with random players. Most are in a FC or have a circle of friends to run it with, which is more fun than 3 nameless people they'll never see again. And then, you'll get abuse and be put under pressure with random people, which is a huge deterrent. "Tanxiety" is a thing. I don't care about that these days, but I used to only run for my FC, or my Trust team if nobody was interested.

Agreed. I just want a Dev who can make the tanks feel like their own thing. DRK is literally just WAR with a sword.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

Agreed. I just want a Dev who can make the tanks feel like their own thing. DRK is literally just WAR with a sword.

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A key difference with DRK at the moment is it is more off-global centric whereas the same abilities on a WAR are GCD. I find DRK to have a lot more aoe variety too.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

Agreed. I just want a Dev who can make the tanks feel like their own thing. DRK is literally just WAR with a sword.

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I hear this a lot and I see where you're coming from, but DRK and WAR do feel quite different to me when I was leveling them up and playing them. WAR has a lot more self healing and it's getting more (why?!) in EW... and I'm pretty bad at that aspect of WAR, I feel hence I feel a lot more like a paper bag playing WAR than I do on DRK.

Regardless of that though, I can get behind anything that makes tanks and healers alike feel more unique and make them more enjoyable to play. More options and more variety are always better.

I mean, is it really that difficult to hire people to be dedicated to each role? I don’t understand why they missed a golden opportunity to go ham on making each job having game play completely different with hardly any similarities from each other. In other games that had multiple healers, you would have your standard cleric/priest then from there you might get a healer that uses a sword, blunt weapon, cannons, or just whatever they could come up with to keep a strong diversity in gameplay. We could’ve had that same energy across the current tanks and healers, easily. I really don’t like this growing obsession to keep the game at Satasha level even though we’re going into level 90… I feel like it’s just holding creativity back.

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

I mean, is it really that difficult to hire people to be dedicated to each role?

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I don't think it's difficult. I think they decided they can do it without. To be fair, the problem with weird class design is partly based on things in the combat system as such.

The tanks are fine though, no idea what people want them to do about them. The problematic ones are the healers.

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

In other games that had multiple healers, you would have your standard cleric/priest then from there you might get a healer that uses a sword, blunt weapon, cannons, or just whatever they could come up with to keep a strong diversity in gameplay.

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IDK man. WHM is the standard cleric/priest. After that we get
-- an orator with a pet fairy
-- A fortune teller with a "globe" made of cards and a smidgen of time magic
-- And magitek fin funnels that heal you with lasers

I don't think a lack of creative and diverse class concepts are what's inhibiting more variety in healer gameplay.