Biggest pet peeves when it comes to dungeon runs?

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Originally Posted by Joven

And you also miss the point. Pulling slow isn't playing the job wrong and doesn't mean the person sucks at playing it. Vote kicking someone just because they take a few more minutes of your time is petty. Use a few of those precious seconds to say "hey, you can pull more" and generally most people will pick up the pace.

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Or if the party rather not, then get rid of them and find someone that works better with the party. That's the point I was making; no party needs to keep a player they don't want.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Or if the party rather not, then get rid of them and find someone that works better with the party. That's the point I was making; no party needs to keep a player they don't want.

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So instead of taking less than a second in chat to encourage a tank to be less hesitant about pulling large groups you'd rather just remove them because they're inconvenient for you? Right, way to foster a positive community there. And people wonder why hardly anyone wants to play as a tank on here. Couldn't imagine why.

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Originally Posted by Joven

So instead of taking less than a second in chat to encourage a tank to be less hesitant about pulling large groups you'd rather just remove them because they're inconvenient for you? Right, way to foster a positive community there. And people wonder why hardly anyone wants to play as a tank on here. Couldn't imagine why.

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It is not our job to babysit players at max level. Lower level? Sure. We'll encourage them, tell them it's ok we're all learning, no one is going to blame you if we fail. All that nice talk you want. But max level? No. What have they been doing the past 79 levels? The community either was too nice to talk (babysitting) or too afraid to talk (they don't want to get banned), or the player was too self-centered and couldn't care less about improving for the past 79 levels. Even if they pick GNB as their first tank. They had 20 levels. They also for sure have seen how other tanks pull and tank while leveling their DPS/Healers. There is no excuse for them to not have improved or attempted to improve.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

It is not our job to babysit players at max level. Lower level? Sure. We'll encourage them, tell them it's ok we're all learning, no one is going to blame you if we fail. All that nice talk you want. But max level? No. What have they been doing the past 79 levels? The community either was too nice to talk (babysitting) or too afraid to talk (they don't want to get banned), or the player was too self-centered and couldn't care less about improving for the past 79 levels. Even if they pick GNB as their first tank. They had 20 levels. They also for sure have seen how other tanks pull and tank while leveling their DPS/Healers. There is no excuse for them to not have improved or attempted to improve.

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And it's not their responsibility to save you those extra 2 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

that's what arm's length and bloodbath are for!

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^

This is literally how you 3-man when your healer has D/Ced for an extended time but no one wants to kick.

DPS open with Arm's Length and Bloodbath, each slightly focusing one mob above the rest (via AAs and whatever oGCDs can only ST), and one AoE bursting a little later than the other to cycle in thereafter. That takes the pressure off the tank for the first 10-18 seconds. Tank takes threat thereafter and cycles cooldowns as normal, though he may turn tank stance off back off shortly after taking threat so that 1-2 enemies each can chew on the DPS instead, ensuring he can live through any double-pull even without all his CDs, so long as everyone's dealing decent damage.

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Originally Posted by Joven

So instead of taking less than a second in chat to encourage a tank to be less hesitant about pulling large groups you'd rather just remove them because they're inconvenient for you? Right, way to foster a positive community there. And people wonder why hardly anyone wants to play as a tank on here. Couldn't imagine why.

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Anyone can be voted away. It's fine if someone doesn't want to play tank, healer, or DPS. That's what it means by not playing things you're not cut out for.

If they're in their 70s and don't know how/are afraid to multipull, it's probably time to check out other roles. I'm not going to block them from being kicked.

Imagine the rest in cursive:

And you can't stop me.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Anyone can be voted away. It's fine if someone doesn't want to play tank, healer, or DPS. That's what it means by not playing things you're not cut out for.

If they're in their 70s and don't know how/are afraid to multipull, it's probably time to check out other roles. I'm not going to block them from being kicked.

Imagine the rest in cursive:

And you can't stop me.

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Not multipulling =/= not suited to play.

I'm not stopping anyone. You're free to abuse the vote kick as much as you want. Just don't be surprised when the same thing happens to you.

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Originally Posted by Joven

And it's not their responsibility to save you those extra 2 minutes.

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Ah yes, the difference between 15-20-30 is 2 minutes. Got it. Math is not your favorite subject.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Ah yes, the difference between 15-20-30 is 2 minutes. Got it. Math is not your favorite subject.

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Don't know where you're pulling those numbers from, I can think of a certain place, but I've never had a run take 15-30 minutes longer just because the tank isn't multipulling.

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Originally Posted by Joven

Not multipulling =/= not suited to play.

I'm not stopping anyone. You're free to abuse the vote kick as much as you want. Just don't be surprised when the same thing happens to you.

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That's the part that people seem to forget, yes. And if two people want me gone, I want to be gone rather than deal with the drama.

Just like someone that refuses to multipull should want to be gone if the rest of their party wants to multipull, especially if their healer and dps are pulling for them.

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Originally Posted by Joven

Don't know where you're pulling those numbers from, I can think of a certain place, but I've never had a run take 15-30 minutes longer just because the tank isn't multipulling.

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But they do, very often, take 10 minutes longer, as per the difference between 20 and 30, as above.

30-20 = 10, not... your "two minutes", no?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But they do, very often, take 10 minutes longer, as per the difference between 20 and 30, as above.

30-20 = 10, not... your "two minutes", no?

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It's called an exaggeration, but I guess that concept is lost on some people.

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Originally Posted by Joven

It's called an exaggeration, but I guess that concept is lost on some people.

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Then why be offended by others' realistic estimates if your answer thereto relies on hyperbole?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Then why be offended by others' realistic estimates if your answer thereto relies on hyperbole?

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Because like I've said, I've never had a run take nearly that much longer just because the tank pulled slow. 5, *maybe* 10 minutes more, at most, but to say upwards to 30 minutes you'd have to be wiping on every other pull for that to be a "realistic" estimate.

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Originally Posted by Joven

Because like I've said, I've never had a run take nearly that much longer just because the tank pulled slow. 5, *maybe* 10 minutes more, at most, but to say upwards to 30 minutes you'd have to be wiping on every other pull for that to be a "realistic" estimate.

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Each dungeon instance has a timer at the right starts with 90:00. By the time you finish the dungeon, subtract the remaining time and you get how long you've spent inside. You should get the numbers between 15-30. Maybe more if the group is really bad, maybe less if actually going for speedrunning. It also depends on the dungeon itself. Most dungeons don't need more than 20 minutes to be cleared. This is where 15-20-30 came from. It's a habit of mine to calculate :)

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Originally Posted by Joven

but to say upwards to 30 minutes you'd have to be wiping on every other pull for that to be a "realistic" estimate.

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Cool. Maybe that's why no one here has said that.

Here are all the posts in this thread prior to yours that use any variant of the word "minute". Perhaps you could point out to me where anyone said that a run takes "30 minutes longer" because of a tank not multi-pulling?

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Originally Posted by SavageCipher

the minute you click on "join" you subscribe to the holy trinity

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

yet they insist on making them 10 minute zergs

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I get that we may be together for only 5 minutes (depending on content)

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

About 16 minutes. Would've been faster if the tank wasn't griefing and hurling abuse.

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We've had someone imply that what would normally take 15 or 20 minutes would thereby probably turn into 20 or 30 minutes, respectively, which is quite literally "5, maybe 10 minutes more, at most." But the only mention of "30 minute(s)" is specifically in describing the deserter penalty.

Meanwhile, you've gone from calling the difference between multipulling and not a matter of "0.2 minutes" to accusing others of exaggerative values they've never used??? That's... not a great look.

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Originally Posted by SavageCipher

Yeah and that usually gets patched/Nerfed, it isn't the first time in an MMO that a class is OP, WoW had that problem with Paladins, and Death Knights, but again, it isn't the norm.

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I don't see it as a problem personally. Immortal DK's in WoW were some of the best fun in that game, especially since it took a really good player to pull it off. The average player just died and the only reason they nerfed them was because those average players got salty over it. Which was a mistake to listen to them. It made tanks appealing and rewarding to play.

The problem isn't OP classes, it's underpowered dungeons. Experts hit like a wet noodle. Abilities like Nascent should be opportunities to justify more threatening damage.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Sure it's not hard to get the aggro back. But it's time lost. Instead of a fast and proper pull you waste your first GCD because the mobs run to the healer instead of you, so you don't hit all of them. Then you have to run back to the healer, do another AoE, and another one or else the dps will pull aggro off while you run to the next pack.
This does not only slow the run down, you also eat a lot more damage as a tank, so the healer actually has to heal more instead of less (thanks to the regen). Ideally you use sprint to run to the next pack, avoiding auto attacks with our speed. But instead you have to drag the enemys back and forth and get hit a lot.

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Unmend + provoke... Did tanks forget that they have aggro generating skills or something? I play healer and tank and prepull regen has only done me more good than bad.

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Originally Posted by Derby_Crash

Healers putting regen on the tank before a pull. Drives me insane every time before I can get the aggro on all the mobs.

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A good tank won't have any problem with this. I tank often and I EXPECT the regen. It's trivially simple to drag the monsters to me. It's baffling people think this is a big issue.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

A good tank won't have any problem with this. I tank often and I EXPECT the regen. It's trivially simple to drag the monsters to me. It's baffling people think this is a big issue.

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Problem is that a lot of healers will peel aggro and then just stand there like "umm... you lost aggro tank... get back here, do your job and get these off of me!"

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Problem is that a lot of healers will peel aggro and then just stand there like "umm... you lost aggro tank... get back here, do your job and get these off of me!"

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If they peel aggro then the tank is actually missing a brain

It isn’t necessarily let the tank set the pace, but I’ve always been a stickler for let the tank handle what they can handle. Especially if they are newer to the role. Don’t pull more and drag it back to them if they don’t feel like they can handle that much.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But they do, very often, take 10 minutes longer, as per the difference between 20 and 30, as above.

30-20 = 10, not... your "two minutes", no?

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If they're taking 10 minutes longer, then the DPS weren't good to begin with. DPS should theoretically be HIGHER on single pulls due to the healer not having to heal as much and being able to contribute more. The amount of time difference between single pulls and wall to wall pulling should be much lower than that. Take 3 friends, all of you on your best classes, and run Pagl'than twice, the first time single pulling, the second time wall to wall. Then tell us the time difference between the runs.

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Originally Posted by Caitsithhh

If they peel aggro then the tank is actually missing a brain

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Or it's just one of those mobs that appeared much later than the rest despite becoming 'engaged' at the same time (and thus receiving threat from buffs applied to the tank despite not being within reach of the tank).

This happens pretty often in Paglathan or w/e it's called, but that's actually kind of convenient when on AST, at least, as I can deposit the ranged mob in the AoE group even while AoEing, myself. On WHM, it does make me miss the old Fluid Aura, though.

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Originally Posted by Caitsithhh

I said peeled not unintentionally grabbed….

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Sorry, I must have missed the myth of the healer intentionally single-target focusing a mob just so he could lead it elsewhere. Let's be clear, though -- a "peel" requires only eclipsed threat (metric or real) such as swaps an enemy off its previous target, be that in PvE or PvP.

But, hey, I'm sure it's a sign of luck if you're seeing these threat-thief healers frequently. Might want to consider gambling.

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Originally Posted by Ultaniku

It isn’t necessarily let the tank set the pace, but I’ve always been a stickler for let the tank handle what they can handle. Especially if they are newer to the role. Don’t pull more and drag it back to them if they don’t feel like they can handle that much.

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If you’re synced then better believe you’re getting all the mobs pulled to you as a tank. How else are you to learn how they’re meant to be played by “taking it easy”? You can have get a premade if that’s how you want to learn 7 year old content.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

If they're taking 10 minutes longer, then the DPS weren't good to begin with. DPS should theoretically be HIGHER on single pulls due to the healer not having to heal as much and being able to contribute more. The amount of time difference between single pulls and wall to wall pulling should be much lower than that. Take 3 friends, all of you on your best classes, and run Pagl'than twice, the first time single pulling, the second time wall to wall. Then tell us the time difference between them then.

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A healer missing a GCD or two doesn't have as much impact as two dps hitting 3 mobs as opposed to 6+.
Barring a few exceptions in ShB leveling dungeons, healers have pretty high downtime either way. And in 80s/ experts you don't need to GCD heal regardless of pull size.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Or it's just one of those mobs that appeared much later than the rest despite becoming 'engaged' at the same time (and thus receiving threat from buffs applied to the tank despite not being within reach of the tank).

This happens pretty often in Paglathan or w/e it's called, but that's actually kind of convenient when on AST, at least, as I can deposit the ranged mob in the AoE group even while AoEing, myself. On WHM, it does make me miss the old Fluid Aura, though.

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I said peeled not unintentionally grabbed…. Words are hard I guess

I’m talking about people who are literally starting out or at least are newer to the tanking role, not people who’ve done it who are just lazy tanking. I’m not gonna stress out someone new by piling more enemies onto them.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

If they're taking 10 minutes longer, then the DPS weren't good to begin with. DPS should theoretically be HIGHER on single pulls due to the healer not having to heal as much and being able to contribute more. The amount of time difference between single pulls and wall to wall pulling should be much lower than that.

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...Take a step back and think about this.

AoEs deal damage per target struck. When there are more targets struck, they deal more damage. I.e., if you pull twice or thrice as many mobs, you deal twice or thrice as much damage with your AoEs. Yes, technically, a triple-pull might require a GCD of healing in the fight itself, especially if the DPS aren't great, but that's not about to compensate for dealing only half to a third as much damage per GCD during one's offensive GCDs, which are still the vast majority of casts.

To put it another way, from the point at which AoEs are worth using, you are literally dealing the same damage per target, and spending the same amount of time dealing said damage, regardless of the number of mobs you pull. If the highest HP among them takes a minute to burn down with AoEs, then they're still going to take a minute to burn down with AoEs. You can spend a minute and kill all of them, or you can spend a minute to kill just three, and another minute to kill three more, so on and so forth. It's a simple matter of "Do I want to apply my resource expenditure to all I can safely apply to, or do I want to for whatever reason apply that expense to only a small portion of its possible recipients?" There is no remaining point at which a full pull in an Expert Roulette is even particularly taxing in terms of healer GCDs, let alone dangerous.

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Originally Posted by Caitsithhh

If they peel aggro then the tank is actually missing a brain

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How so?

Standing around doing full AoE combos before you move to the next group is a waste of sprint time and involves taking unnecessary hits. Best way to pull is to never stop moving and just drive by AoE as many of them as you can hit. Any you didn't hit will still follow, unless someone peels them off of you and doesn't bother bringing them to you.

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Originally Posted by Caitsithhh

If they peel aggro then the tank is actually missing a brain

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Assize+Misery during the 2.5 sec GCD between 2 aoes, there you go. Super easy. I love doing this,.

I think in 2016 or so around here I made a reply to one of these threads and said the regen on tank before pull could sometimes be an accident by the healer from the previous mob dying quicker than they realized. Or nowadays sometimes the tank is taking too much damage from the pull, or even Tetra/Excog that can lightly rip because the tank won't soften the blow on the way to a wall. DPS and healers are also going to smack these wall-to-walls pulls with aoes while running to and some will rip. The easiest answer is to hit those light CDs like parries, or even Arms Length to slow them.

While you could click off regen from your own buff bar if you have an issue with it, however with no more TP in the game and every tank having an easy aoe combo, the argument is even more moot now. Even then smart DPS and healers will just run to tank to get it all together since you should be hitting the AoE combos anyway. If you lose your ego over a light turning green, well that's a personal problem.

So, why is putting regen up before pack has been AOEd at least once by a tank a thing? The tank hasn't taken damage up to this point. Regen doesn't get rollover minutes and any overheal doesn't turn into a shield.

What is the goal of prepull regen or regen prior to first tank AOE? Is it peace of mind? Is that piece of mind ok with the risk of a chance for the mobs that have not been AOEd by the tank (those mobs do not have the modified agro from tank stance affecting them, since it is link agro) to agro you instead? I am honestly curious, I am not trying to be a jerk or anything.

My take is:

• The tank should be sprinting before the first pack, establish that hate on all mobs in one AOE, and maybe using a defensive oGCD (like Arm's Length, the game's sexiest defensive cooldown) and use distance to prevent damage.
• Healers should be keeping up with sprint and start applying dots to the pack.
• If healers feel like they have to regen, do it after the AOE and when everyone is moving. Or better yet, use something like Divine Benison, which generates less agro and is an oGCD. Meaning WHMs can DB the tank and Dia mob without having to deal with global cooldown for one Dia.

This is not a back-seat driver take either. This is what I do when I play WHM and I have no problem keeping even the derpiest of tanks alive.

So yeah, the idea of prepulling or pre-tank AOE regen baffles me.

Tanks and healers that keep dying from not moving out of the attacks area and not following mechanic's. Tanks that don't know how to use there cool downs and keep dying. Today in had to raise the tank 2 times and the healer 3 times on same boss.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

So, why is putting regen up before pack has been AOEd at least once by a tank a thing? The tank hasn't taken damage up to this point. Regen doesn't get rollover minutes and any overheal doesn't turn into a shield.

What is the goal of prepull regen or regen prior to first tank AOE? Is it peace of mind? Is that piece of mind ok with the risk of a chance for the mobs that have not been AOEd by the tank (those mobs do not have the modified agro from tank stance affecting them, since it is link agro) to agro you instead? I am honestly curious, I am not trying to be a jerk or anything.

My take is:

• The tank should be sprinting before the first pack, establish that hate on all mobs in one AOE, and maybe using a defensive oGCD (like Arm's Length, the game's sexiest defensive cooldown) and use distance to prevent damage.
• Healers should be keeping up with sprint and start applying dots to the pack.
• If healers feel like they have to regen, do it after the AOE and when everyone is moving. Or better yet, use something like Divine Benison, which generates less agro and is an oGCD. Meaning WHMs can DB the tank and Dia mob without having to deal with global cooldown for one Dia.

This is not a back-seat driver take either. This is what I do when I play WHM and I have no problem keeping even the derpiest of tanks alive.

So yeah, the idea of prepulling or pre-tank AOE regen baffles me.

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The tank will take damage while they pull.
The moment the mobs are in range of getting a DoT, doing damage is more important than healing and the healing tool to prioritize when that happens will be Benediction.
So regen is applied so the tank can get passively healed while the healer is DPSing.
Regen also lasts for quite some time and is the best single target GCD heal WHM has afaik, timed correctly, even with a tick or two of overhealing, it's still going to provide more healing to the tank than benison or even a lily can.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

The tank will take damage while they pull.
The moment the mobs are in range of getting a DoT, doing damage is more important than healing and the healing tool to prioritize when that happens will be Benediction.
So regen is applied so the tank can get passively healed while the healer is DPSing.
Regen also lasts for quite some time and is the best single target GCD heal WHM has afaik, timed correctly, even with a tick or two of overhealing, it's still going to provide more healing to the tank than benison or even a lily can.

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So, the point of pre-pull/pre-tank AOE regen is to try to make the fullest use of the HoT for the initial damage the tank will receive. This is with the acceptance of the overhealing and the risk of the tank possibly not being able to AOE in time to establish hate with the mobs who only have link agro and not the modified agro from the tank stance.

Am I understanding your point correctly? I do not want to make assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

So, the point of pre-pull/pre-tank AOE regen is to try to make the fullest use of the HoT for the initial damage the tank will receive. This is with the acceptance of the overhealing and the risk of the tank possibly not being able to AOE in time to establish hate with the mobs who only have link agro and not the modified agro from the tank stance.

Am I understanding your point correctly? I do not want to make assumptions.

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Yeah, in pre-pull overhealing is fine because the GCD spent on casting the heal couldn't have been spent on DPSing anyways, so as long as it heals about anything, it's not a waste. It's very unlikely for a tank to not have his health nibbled at during a pull, even with benison, if regen gives even just a bit of health back, then it wasn't a poor choice to cast it. If the healer gets some aggro for a bit, it's fine, by the end of the pull they're expected to be standing in middle of the mobs close to the tank for their AoE (or CU for AST) so the tank doesn't need to go out of his way to get aggro back anyways.

Personally I definitely see a difference in the tank's health when the pull stops between a pre-pull regen and none, and the former is a lot more comfy.

Oh and another thing, people with off color glamours that use "uwu" speak.

Biggest pet peeve is healers putting regen on the tank and will not run with the tank or bring the adds to the tank.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Yeah, in pre-pull overhealing is fine because the GCD spent on casting the heal couldn't have been spent on DPSing anyways, so as long as it heals about anything, it's not a waste. It's very unlikely for a tank to not have his health nibbled at during a pull, even with benison, if regen gives even just a bit of health back, then it wasn't a poor choice to cast it. If the healer gets some aggro for a bit, it's fine, by the end of the pull they're expected to be standing in middle of the mobs close to the tank for their AoE (or CU for AST) so the tank doesn't need to go out of his way to get aggro back anyways.

Personally I definitely see a difference in the tank's health when the pull stops between a pre-pull regen and none, and the former is a lot more comfy.

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It's not a huge deal, but one bad thing about Regen during a pull is that it makes it more difficult to grab everything while pulling.

Once I get close to a group of enemies I get proximity aggro, which means they all converge on me in an organized fashion to eat the AoE. If I have regen on, however, nothing converges on me, instead once I'm in proximity everything runs past me. This means spread out enemies don't gather towards me; a close by enemy will have run past me by the time a far away enemy is in range; etc.