Why are white mages allergic to regen?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raven2014

Because to me it's not bad play? In fact, unless the WHM know the other trick to make the pull easier, I would welcome a regen on me prepull. It's only bad play if only one or neither know what they are doing, if both parties know what they're doing then it's fantastic.

---

Regen at full HP pre-pull isn't a bad play now?
The hell is happening in this thread.

Wait, you're level 50..?
NVM, I suppose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

I have had at least 2 whm co-healers in the last week and half who would not help until the party was one aoe away from being killed. Whats really sad is the ones who make no attempt to heal themselves even if they are low on HP..nope you just see there cast bar throwing out dmg abilities.

---

Ironically the better your healer is the more likely they are to do this. No need to heal yourself if you know you can avoid the upcoming damage. No need to heal the party right away either. Especially if paired with a sch. Healers can just bring people up before the next damage hits and benefit from whatever passive healing is going on in the meantime. Of course what actually happens is the other healer probably doesn't have as much knowledge of the fight and timings and heals everyone up by themselves, then complains about the co-healer only dpsing lol. Not to say there aren't also a fair amount of players who only go on healer for the shorter queues, but yeah, just saying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Well, I'd be foolish to ignore constructive criticism. I've always been under the impression that pulling with a ranged attack was the standard, because that's what I've seen other tanks doing all the time. Perhaps I will give this a go, thanks. It certainly makes sense.

---

I'll admit this is a surprise, not so often you see people on the forum taking advise from stranger on the chin. But yes try it, I guarantee you will like it. It is like you said: this is what other tanks doing ALL THE TIME. So it comes as no suprise why there are so many complains about regen prepull here.

For pre-pull regen it's worth noting that overheal emnity has been significantly nerfed while anything a tank does will make mobs glue to them. It's much less of an issue now although still not optimal on dungeon mob pulls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

I have notice that as well so many Whm getting lazy and just dpsing. I have had at least 2 whm co-healers in the last week and half who would not help until the party was one aoe away from being killed. Whats really sad is the ones who make no attempt to heal themselves even if they are low on HP..nope you just see there cast bar throwing out dmg abilities. SE should just make Whm a dps and come up with a new healer cause seems everyone playing a whm is treating like a dps with healing ability. I looked whm and honestly you could remove cure 1 ,2, regen, and medica. whm would still be the best healer in the game like they are now.

---

That can really depend.

If your healer is knowledgeable and knows what mechanics are coming up, this is good play. Why immediately heal yourself or the party if no aoes are coming up in the next 20 seconds? Nothing is going to hit you, so you could be at 1 health and in no danger whatsoever until that mechanic is due. The less experienced healer (or most players to be fair), won't have the order of every mechanic and its timing memorized and be able to resist panic at seeing low health bars. A co-healer might think "wtf why aren't they helping" when in fact they're the ones healing unnecessarily. This is mana efficient and maximizes contribution via damage.

Now of course, if anyone dies, your healer is just loading the work on you and absolutely deserves the blame.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Regen at full HP pre-pull isn't a bad play now?
The hell is happening in this thread.

Wait, you're level 50..?
NVM, I suppose.

---

Do you think someone who had been playing the game since 2014 is only a lvl50?

And like I said, it's only a bad play if you don't do it right. After all, I don't seem to have an issue keeping mobs on me with regen like many seem to do. :P

And what happening in this thread is people being narrow minded instead of working out potential improvement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaMett

Ironically the better your healer is the more likely they are to do this. No need to heal yourself if you know you can avoid the upcoming damage. No need to heal the party right away either. Especially if paired with a sch. Healers can just bring people up before the next damage hits and benefit from whatever passive healing is going on in the meantime. Of course what actually happens is the other healer probably doesn't have as much knowledge of the fight and timings and heals everyone up by themselves, then complains about the co-healer only dpsing lol. Not to say there aren't also a fair amount of players who only go on healer for the shorter queues, but yeah, just saying.

---

I posted an example of this 2 pages back

Quote:

---

A trademark of a good WHM, or ANY good healers really, is not about how much you heal, but knowing when and what to heal. Most high level healer will not simply heal because someone take damage, which is the common mentality in pug. For example:

-I once had a co-healer questioned why I didn't heal the party after the first AOE went out during the add phase of Innocent.
-I said I did Assize.
-The co-healer insisted it's not enough, because the party wasn't topped off and he "had to do all the work". (like many complains in this thread).
-To which I asked: why did you even top the party off to begin with?

Two and a half reason why no healer should heal during that phase:

-First: that first AOE is also the ONLY raid damage during that phase, there is no other damage (zip, nada, zero) going into the raid till the phase end. Even if someone has 1HP after that AOE, they still wont die during that phase.
-First and a half:If the tanks were top off and use their CD appropriately for the holy sword busters, then they too shouldn't need any heal before the adds die, unless your party DPS is so low that the adds stay up for long.
-Second: after the adds are down, there are a 10+ second transition into the next phase where you can't target anything, and thus have all the time in the world to heal the party up ... many times over.

That's why there is NO reason whatsoever to waste GCDs on heal when the adds are up, GCDs that are better used to bring the adds down even faster, then heal afterward.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raven2014

I'll admit this is a surprise, not so often you see people on the forum taking advise from stranger on the chin. But yes try it, I guarantee you will like it. It is like you said: this is what other tanks doing ALL THE TIME. So it comes as no suprise why there are so many complains about regen prepull here.

---

Admittedly I also looked it up. AoE enmity generation is a bit more powerful than throwing a single ranged attack at a group. In the time it takes for someone to use their ranged ability they lose out on one or 2 GCDs that could have been used to hit everything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raven2014

Do you think someone who had been playing the game since 2014 is only a lvl50?

And like I said, it's only a bad play if you don't do it right. After all, I don't seem to have an issue keeping mobs on me with regen like many seem to do. :P

And what happening in this thread is people being narrow minded instead of working out potential improvement.

---

I'm not going to assume someones level based on their join date, I'm going to assume it based on the levels they have...

Either way, it's still a bad play.
At best, you are overhealing your tank, and not getting smacked. At worse, the enemies are far apart, all of them rush the healer, and time is wasted. If a healer is going to put a regen on a tank, and continue to do so then they shouldn't be surprised when they start tanking mobs.

Even worse - I've had healers regen me DURING a pull. I still don't need the healing, but the healer puts that extra bit of screw you sprinkles right on top of my plate.

If you enjoy having to deal with it, so be it - but at the very least stop calling over-healing a "good play"

Quote:

---

A separate post since this is to the other main complain I see in this thread: about regen pre-pull is bad. I'll tell you this: if I am tanking and you are healing, you are welcome to put Regen + Medica II on my pre-pull, and still no mobs gonna take so much a lick on you. This is actually the issue on the tanks not doing the pull correctly. Most tanks open their pull with a range attack (i.e Tomahawk/Shield Blob/Unmend) before following up with an AOE in the 2nd attack, it's this one GCD between your first and second move that make the mobs peeline to the healer. If you are a tank with this problem, do this: run straight to the pack and do your AOE like Flash as your first attack, then you will NEVER have this problem again. The range attack on the tanks are never meant to be your opener, it's only for picking up stray mobs.

---

While what you say to do is definitely what you should be doing as a tank (and is what I try to do, especially nowadays), I wouldn't go quite as far as to say you'll never have the problem again. Some enemies have different detection ranges and movement speeds, both of which may throw off your AoE timing and cause you to miss mobs. I see this happen frequently with newer tanks in particular.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

For pre-pull regen it's worth noting that overheal emnity has been significantly nerfed while anything a tank does will make mobs glue to them. It's much less of an issue now although still not optimal on dungeon mob pulls.



That can really depend.

If your healer is knowledgeable and knows what mechanics are coming up, this is good play. Why immediately heal yourself or the party if no aoes are coming up in the next 20 seconds? Nothing is going to hit you, so you could be at 1 health and in no danger whatsoever until that mechanic is due. The less experienced healer (or most players to be fair), won't have the order of every mechanic and its timing memorized and be able to resist panic at seeing low health bars. A co-healer might think "wtf why aren't they helping" when in fact they're the ones healing unnecessarily. This is mana efficient and maximizes contribution via damage.

Now of course, if anyone dies, your healer is just loading the work on you and absolutely deserves the blame.

---

See, in my mind that doesn't really matter. Heal now, heal later, you still need to heal before the next mechanic, or at least before the next unavoidable mechanic. In fact times like these are where HoTs should really shine. Obviously I'm not gonna say put a regen on everyone, thats 8 gcds, but an aoe HoT is just one cast, lets you get back to dps, and should heal people enough to survive the next unavoidable aoe. And if you're using an oGCD to do the aoe heal instead, well, what difference is there in popping it now vs popping it just before the next aoe?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

At best, you are overhealing your tank, and not getting smacked.

---

Tank still take damage during pull, they recently adds arm length for tank to help with that but it seems not many have catch on. 9/10 time I don't see tank use it during pull. It probably doesn't matter, but a few tick of regen is enough to cover the damage between the first group and the second group, so it's not exactly wasting.

Quote:

---

At worse, the enemies are far apart, all of them rush the healer, and time is wasted.

---

Doesn't happen to me when I'm tanking.

Quote:

---

If a healer is going to put a regen on a tank, and continue to do so then they shouldn't be surprised when they start tanking mobs.

---

You may let that happen to your healer, I don't let that happen to mine. See the difference?

Quote:

---

Even worse - I've had healers Regen me DURING a pull. I still don't need the healing, but the healer puts that extra bit of screw you sprinkles right on top of my plate.

---

That seems to be a tank problem rather then a healer problem. I'll say this flat out, straight up leaving no room for uncertainty: if regens manage to pull the mobs off you DURING a pull (as you emphasized yourself), then that is 101% tank problem.

Quote:

---

If you enjoy having to deal with it, so be it - but at the very least stop calling over-healing a "good play"

---

I don't have to deal with it, because it has never been a problem to me. And it's a bit funny to talking about a tiny little bit amount of overhealing in a thread that 90% of the complains seem about to beg the WHM to heal more lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

While what you say to do is definitely what you should be doing as a tank (and is what I try to do, especially nowadays), I wouldn't go quite as far as to say you'll never have the problem again. Some enemies have different detection ranges and movement speeds, both of which may throw off your AoE timing and cause you to miss mobs. I see this happen frequently with newer tanks in particular.

---

Oh yeah, it's definitely not black and white. Tanking requires a bit of adaptation to many situations anyway.

Putting a regen before a pull in a dungeon is standard and good play. You use your GCD while you're out of combat. Putting regen during the pull is less efficient but still ok. You just run alongside your tank and stack with them at the end. Stray mobs can be a thing if the tank misses them but it's fine, if the tank is aoe dpsing (and he should) you won't keep them long.
Super annoying when a tank removes regen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

While what you say to do is definitely what you should be doing as a tank (and is what I try to do, especially nowadays), I wouldn't go quite as far as to say you'll never have the problem again. Some enemies have different detection ranges and movement speeds, both of which may throw off your AoE timing and cause you to miss mobs. I see this happen frequently with newer tanks in particular.

---

Just like with everything it takes practice, and maybe even a few runs to work out the kin. But if you do 100 pull and 99 went without a hitch, I say that's as good as 100/100. Pop your sprint during pull, sometime you will see tank for some reason run into mob pack at a certain angle ...etc... I just want to pointed of a very common misconception about this particular problem that when a situation like this happens, then it's 1 part the healer fault and 9 part the tanks don't do it right (i.e open with a range attack).

Hell, if regen is enough to cause problem people would have a field day running with some DNC, as many love to do their dance during pull, which generate far more emnity then a regen can. But the problem is moot if the tanks do it right, I just dislike how people love to lay blame on others instead of thinking of a way to improve their own play.

For the record, I don't put regen on my tank when I'm a WHM because it's not necessary for me. There is another trick to WHM to ensure you tank takes no damage during a pull that only a WHM can do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

See, in my mind that doesn't really matter. Heal now, heal later, you still need to heal before the next mechanic, or at least before the next unavoidable mechanic. In fact times like these are where HoTs should really shine. Obviously I'm not gonna say put a regen on everyone, thats 8 gcds, but an aoe HoT is just one cast, lets you get back to dps, and should heal people enough to survive the next unavoidable aoe. And if you're using an oGCD to do the aoe heal instead, well, what difference is there in popping it now vs popping it just before the next aoe?

---

Plenty of reasons, maybe you want to use afflatus rapture to weave assize but assize is still on cooldown or you need to wait a bit for a lily. Maybe you want to weave indom and bio is falling off in 10s. Maybe you have a SCH or SMN and you want to let them heal stuff passively so you have less work to do. Maybe you plan on shielding so you don't need to actually heal for the upcoming damage. Maybe there's an asylum or SS on the ground and you want to fully utilize that before you cast anything. Maybe you're keeping track of your co-healer's toolkit and know they could take care of it by themselves with a double weave as opposed to both of you wasting a single weave, maybe there's a phase transition or the boss will go untargeteable which will allow you to heal then Etc.. etc.. So many reasons why you would wait.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

See, in my mind that doesn't really matter. Heal now, heal later, you still need to heal before the next mechanic, or at least before the next unavoidable mechanic. In fact times like these are where HoTs should really shine. Obviously I'm not gonna say put a regen on everyone, thats 8 gcds, but an aoe HoT is just one cast, lets you get back to dps, and should heal people enough to survive the next unavoidable aoe. And if you're using an oGCD to do the aoe heal instead, well, what difference is there in popping it now vs popping it just before the next aoe?

---

If you had read my example than it DOES matter. If you know there is a break between now and the next mechanic where you can not do anything, then essentially any GCD that you use to heal when their is target up is a "wasted" GCD, because then you have "nothing to do during the break", you just sit and wait while doing no DPS nor heal. But if you ulitize those GCD to DPS while there is a target up, and then use the break time to heal then it simply an optimum way to use both your time and resource. You contribute more to the party output (DPS), and you have less down time in your cast (since you'll be healing during the break instead of just sit there waiting).

Also example like this is why you see there are usually big gap between optimized and unoptimized groups, despite each elements sound so trivial or even petty (thus why people plays casually tend to think others as try hard). Using the same example I posted, do you know that even that very first AOE is totally avoidable. Because it comes from the middle adds, so if the party kill that add fast enough (which will be greatly helped by healer contribution) then it means there will be zero damage going to the raid, and guess what?

No damage = No heal = The best kind of heal = Even more damage.

It's kinda like a domino effect that you won't fully appreciate if you just look at one link at a time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

For pre-pull regen it's worth noting that overheal emnity has been significantly nerfed while anything a tank does will make mobs glue to them. It's much less of an issue now although still not optimal on dungeon mob pulls.



That can really depend.

If your healer is knowledgeable and knows what mechanics are coming up, this is good play. Why immediately heal yourself or the party if no aoes are coming up in the next 20 seconds? Nothing is going to hit you, so you could be at 1 health and in no danger whatsoever until that mechanic is due. The less experienced healer (or most players to be fair), won't have the order of every mechanic and its timing memorized and be able to resist panic at seeing low health bars. A co-healer might think "wtf why aren't they helping" when in fact they're the ones healing unnecessarily. This is mana efficient and maximizes contribution via damage.

Now of course, if anyone dies, your healer is just loading the work on you and absolutely deserves the blame.

---

Good players play the way your talking. I am a good healer but don't have the luxury of playing that way most of the time. As run I df only and don't touch ex or savage. DF has taught me one thing, players you there can't be trusted to stay alive at low hp. I have seen healers who try to heal df like it's savage and they kill almost as many people as bad healer cause of their misplaced faith in df players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raven2014

- If Swift Cast is 10- seconds out, we most likely gonna wait for it to res.
- Most people die getting knocked of the platform, which usually follow by a long chain of AOE jumping from the boss. We have enough time to cast flare before each move, but we don't have enough time to raise.
- (Lack of) coordination between healers in pug. If we both have to hard cast a raise, chance is one of us gonna cancel it to avoid raising the same people, this could lead to a case where we keep canceling out our raise.

Also just to NOT avoid the big elephant in the room here but ... if the party got to a point where there are so many deaths that the healers can't res them all, then should you really be looking at faulting the healers?

---

I play healer as well, I know how things work with swift raises and such. However, yesterday I died to something stupid because I got distracted and the off healer was too busy keeping the tanks up while the whm just spammed glare. I was down maybe 30% of the entirety of the fight because the whm can't stop glare spam. I was down enough for them to have gotten off at least 3 swift casts, at least, likely more.

And while many deaths not being the healers fault could be the case, as I stated above where I just did something dumb due to distraction, which happens /shrug there are unavoidable aoes and if the sch/ast has little to no mp left because they are solo healing and the pt just flat out isn't getting healed due to glare spam, than its not the dps's fault, that IS indeed the fault of the whm. Not every hp worth of damage we take is due to a lack of dodging. Like in E2 where there are the stack and the individual aoes and out of the handful of times I have done it, the whm glare spams more than anything while the sch/ast pick up the slack.

And don't get me started how much I self heal as a rdm since 5.0. Way way more than any time before. It is to the point now that if I fall under 30% health I will just heal myself since getting a heal/regen is iffy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Good players play the way your talking. I am a good healer but don't have the luxury of playing that way most of the time. As run I df only and don't touch ex or savage. DF has taught me one thing, players you there can't be trusted to stay alive at low hp. I have seen healers who try to heal df like it's savage and they kill almost as many people as bad healer cause of their misplaced faith in df players.

---

This is the issue with that mentality.
You can't treat a group of randos the same as a group you've practiced with and know how to do every mechanic with little to no screw ups.
At LEAST one person is likely to screw up, possibly more, and if they screwed up once they're likely to do it again.
If you as a healer treat a duty finder group like a static the only thing you're going to accomplish is being the last one alive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

I play healer as well, I know how things work with swift raises and such. However, yesterday I died to something stupid because I got distracted and the off healer was too busy keeping the tanks up while the whm just spammed glare. I was down maybe 30% of the entirety of the fight because the whm can't stop glare spam. I was down enough for them to have gotten off at least 3 swift casts, at least, likely more.

And while many deaths not being the healers fault could be the case, as I stated above where I just did something dumb due to distraction, which happens /shrug there are unavoidable aoes and if the sch/ast has little to no mp left because they are solo healing and the pt just flat out isn't getting healed due to glare spam, than its not the dps's fault, that IS indeed the fault of the whm. Not every hp worth of damage we take is due to a lack of dodging. Like in E2 where there are the stack and the individual aoes and out of the handful of times I have done it, the whm glare spams more than anything while the sch/ast pick up the slack.

And don't get me started how much I self heal as a rdm since 5.0. Way way more than any time before. It is to the point now that if I fall under 30% health I will just heal myself since getting a heal/regen is iffy.

---

While letting you die is a problem, this isn’t. If the healers have things under control it’s better for them to dps than unnecessary healing.

Quote:

---

While letting you die is a problem, this isn’t. If the healers have things under control it’s better for them to dps than unnecessary healing.

---

That's the thing though, clearly they don't have things under control if people are dying.

That's not to say that it's necessarily the healer's fault; sometimes people just don't handle mechs correctly and die because of that. But seemingly very often nowadays, I see people slowly die where at least one healer is just happily DPSing away without a care in the world, and that is a problem.

Quote:

---

But I will never ever understand why SE thinks making it so healers with high DPS and as little healing as possible are the ‘best’ healers.

---

You are completely misattributing the blame here. That is a player issue.

SE clearly wants healer DPS to take a backseat to actual healing, they explicitly say so in Hall of the Novice at least 3 times or so.

Quote:

---

The sad truth about healing in FFXIV is that it has no real purpose. If you’re doing a fight and the boss is at 10% HP, and the whole party except both healers die. There is absolutely no reason for those healers to heal if they can just kill the enemy. (obviously healers can’t take a boss down that much but just for example’s sake). In fact, it would be considered far more skilled for the healers to refuse to Raise and heal the party in favour of just killing the enemy. It doesn’t make any sense to me. Why have healers in the first place if they want healing to barely exist

---

Not sure what you're talking about here tbh. If you think healing has "no real purpose" try and go queue Eden with a 6 DPS party and let me know how it turns out.

I made a post about healers leaving DPS to essentially die in favour of DPS and how it’s actually encouraged, but it felt like it was moving away the point of the thread.

Basically though, healers letting DPS come close to dying is actually encouraged and considered ‘more skillful’ than healing them.

Best example of this; imagine the boss is at 10% and everyone except the healers have died. It would be considered far more skilful for those healers to kill the enemy than it would to raise the party (obviously healers can’t take a boss from 0 to 10% but just for examples sake). Why would they waste time and MP healing when they could just win the fight? They’d probably be more likely to wipe if they tried to raise the party.

This is exactly why we aren’t seeing players use things like Regen. There’s absolutely no point in sustained healing if the target won’t die without it. And thus, the vast majority of the time Regen is a waste of GCDs and MP (because you won’t die without it), which honestly I think is a really awful design for a role lol.

Imagine if DPS were less skilled the more DPS they done? And were actively encouraged by the game’s design to exclusively utilise their ancillary toolkits (e.g Red Mage Vercure spam). It wouldn’t make a lot of sense, would it? And naturally, having one or two DPS focus on a design like this isn’t necessarily bad. But when it’s applied to literally every job in the role, you start to question just what the developers are trying to do

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Connor

I made a post about healers leaving DPS to essentially die in favour of DPS and how it’s actually encouraged

---

First time I've heard of it.
Healers DPS is like 1/3rd of a competent DPS players output.
Letting one die is ALWAYS a DPS loss, never encouraged and most certainly frowned upon. Oo

Quote:

---

Best example of this; imagine the boss is at 10% and everyone except the healers have died. It would be considered far more skilful for those healers to kill the enemy than it would to raise the party (obviously healers can’t take a boss from 0 to 10% but just for examples sake). Why would they waste time and MP healing when they could just win the fight? They’d probably be more likely to wipe if they tried to raise the party.

---

If literally only the two healers are left, they are likely Completely Screwed without a lb3 unless we're talking like, some old raid boss and not a current one. If it's a current one, the boss will just smack both of them to the floor.

Even if they can manage to get a tank up and back in control of the boss without getting killed themselves, they're likely still going to die the next time the boss throws out something like a stack mechanic, which most bosses have at some point or another (a mechanic designed specifically to ensure that healers aren't just letting people die and stay dead)

And if this happens in any *serious* raid (again without a healer LB3), you're definitely boned anyway even if you could recover from it, because that'll mean a severe loss in DPS that will ensure you don't meet the enrage timer. TBH if I'm in a raid where everyone except me has died and it's all but certain that I'm next, I'm not going to try to raise anyone because I know I'd just be wrecking their gear further for no good reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Connor

This is exactly why we aren’t seeing players use things like Regen. There’s absolutely no point in sustained healing if the target won’t die without it.

---

Regen: 1.2K potency /GCD
Cure II: 700 potency/GCD
You can bet your ass I will cast regen if there is no urgency requiring direct casts, esp on the tanks. Regen is mostly used on tanks because incoming DPS is of a steady nature, compared to DPS, where it is more random/spiky and generally urgent to heal it back up before the next hit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

That's the thing though, clearly they don't have things under control if people are dying.

That's not to say that it's necessarily the healer's fault; sometimes people just don't handle mechs correctly and die because of that. But seemingly very often nowadays, I see people slowly die where at least one healer is just happily DPSing away without a care in the world, and that is a problem.

You are completely misattributing the blame here. That is a player issue.

SE clearly wants healer DPS to take a backseat to actual healing, they explicitly say so in Hall of the Novice at least 3 times or so.

Not sure what you're talking about here tbh. If you think healing has "no real purpose" try and go queue Eden with a 6 DPS party and let me know how it turns out.

---

I really don’t think you can argue healer DPS is purely a player based issue. It’s very much part of encounter design that healers deal damage during downtime and don’t heal unnecessarily (which ends up being often).

Isn’t the Hall of the Novice for, well, novices? By definition it exists for lower skilled players who aren’t familiar with the game. I’m talking about in level 80 content, where players will be more familiar and skilled with the game. Lastly, they doesn’t the Hall of the Novice specifically tell healers to deal damage when there’s no healing required? That doesn’t sound like it ‘taking a backseat’ to me, more like always having it on your mind

As for the second point, you seem to be misunderstanding. I’m not saying it’s a good thing to literally let people die. But if they come extremely close it doesn’t technically matter what their HP is until the next mechanic is coming, and it’s very easy to plan out use of oGCD healing to match every mechanic so that you spend as little time

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Granyala

Regen: 1.2K potency /GCD
Cure II: 700 potency/GCD
You can bet your ass I will cast regen if there is no urgency requiring direct casts, esp on the tanks. Regen is mostly used on tanks because incoming DPS is of a steady nature, compared to DPS, where it is more random/spiky and generally urgent to heal it back up before the next hit.

---

If you were that worried about sustained damage wouldn’t you use Asylum? It’s still higher potency than Cure II, no MP cost, no GCD cost, and allows more DPS openings (assuming you can’t get Afflatus for the Misery). Wouldn’t Regen just waste MP over Asylum?

Quote:

---

Isn’t the Hall of the Novice for, well, novices? By definition it exists for lower skilled players who aren’t familiar with the game. I’m talking about in level 80 content, where players will be more familiar and skilled with the game. Lastly, they doesn’t the Hall of the Novice specifically tell healers to deal damage when there’s no healing required? That doesn’t sound like it ‘taking a backseat’ to me, more like always having it on your mind

---

Here is specifically what it says:
"When you've healed all there is to heal, there may be time to weave in some offensive magicks."
"But keep an eye on your companion! You should not be blasting if someone is bleeding!"
"Even when it's safe to attack, always keep one eye on your allies' health!"
"Another enemy threatens your party! You might try attacking this foe if your allies are uninjured."

That definitely sounds like it should be taking a backseat to, you know, healing. Like what your role says.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raven2014

A trademark of a good WHM, or ANY good healers really, is not about how much you heal, but knowing when and what to heal. Most high level healer will not simply heal because someone take damage, which is the common mentality in pug. For example:

-I once had a co-healer questioned why I didn't heal the party after the first AOE went out during the add phase of Innocent.
-I said I did Assize.
-The co-healer insisted it's not enough, because the party wasn't topped off and he "had to do all the work". (like many complains in this thread).
-To which I asked: why did you even top the party off to begin with?

Two and a half reason why no healer should heal during that phase:

-First: that first AOE is also the ONLY raid damage during that phase, there is no other damage (zip, nada, zero) going into the raid till the phase end. Even if someone has 1HP after that AOE, they still wont die during that phase.
-First and a half:If the tanks were top off and use their CD appropriately for the holy sword busters, then they too shouldn't need any heal before the adds die, unless your party DPS is so low that the adds stay up for long.
-Second: after the adds are down, there are a 10+ second transition into the next phase where you can't target anything, and thus have all the time in the world to heal the party up ... many times over.

---

Some healers (myself included) get a bit... twitchy... when our party isn't at or close to 100%. Because we're used to everyone else being completely incapable of avoiding avoidable mechanics and taking unnecessary damage. In pugs, I'll typically monitor the whole group's HP and hit them with one or more of my AoE heals (and maybe follow up with some Cure/Cure II/Solace if necessary) when the majority are under 75% health, so basically whenever raidwide damage goes out. This is partially because I don't trust them to stay alive if I don't, and partially because half the time it feels like my healing is having no effect, so I panic. Of course, in those situations Assize is my first reaction, or Plenary Indulgence followed by Medica II and Afflatus Rapture if I'm expecting more than one hit.

However this is also why I prefer WHM to AST or SCH - that type of "oh god everyone's dying must heal to full" healing is generally possible without burning through all of my mana.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

Here is specifically what it says:
"When you've healed all there is to heal, there may be time to weave in some offensive magicks."
"But keep an eye on your companion! You should not be blasting if someone is bleeding!"
"Even when it's safe to attack, always keep one eye on your allies' health!"
” ]if your allies are uninjured."

That definitely sounds like it should be taking a backseat to, you know, healing. Like what your role says.

---

How do these quotes contradict my statement exactly?

Healing all there is to heal isn’t a particularly difficult job at high levels. The point I’m making is that you won’t generally be in a situation where a heal means the difference between life and death. And when you are in that situation you use an oGCD. If someone is bleeding why heal them if they’re not in imminent danger of death? This is the issue with healing I’m talking about, because the chances that imminent death will come if you aren’t making good use of your healing spells is generally low in my experience, both in normal and the raid content. Is a party really ‘injured’ just because their health has went down?

I originally posted about how this largely because of oGCD strength, but it wasn’t as focused on Regen hence why I delete it. The point still stands though that incoming damage is not generally high enough that sustained healing like regens are highly valuable, especially when they cost MP/GCDs that could be used to kill the enemy (killing the enemy is the ultimate form of mitigation etc). I know as a Scholar I’m not going to have Eos/Selene use Whispering Dawn if I know I can just use Indomitability and avoid overhealing. And if I know the enemy is going to die before their next attack, or that the next attack is avoidable damage, I’m not going to use my GCDs to heal them if natural healing and Embrace if needed is enough.
Healers have a vast variety of tools that specifically allow them to deal more damage and minimise healing (this creating more DPS openings). I don’t think it’s accurate to say that damage takes a backseat to healing, if anything they’re both as valuable as each other

Quote:

---

How do these quotes contradict my statement exactly?

---

Do you even know what something "taking a backseat" means? It means that there's something else that should always be prioritized first.

Your claim about SE expecting healing to take the backseat to healer DPS is simply unfounded. Again, that's a mentality the players created. SE themselves advocates the opposite.

Quote:

---

The point I’m making is that you won’t generally be in a situation where a heal means the difference between life and death.

---

I have been in that situation tons. Plenty of times just last night doing weekly Eden. Do you even heal?

Quote:

---

Is a party really ‘injured’ just because their health has went down?

---

Uhh, yes? Is that really a question?

why use Regen or Cure2 when you have much better options to use and noone needs a regen?
Healing in Eden NM, EX Trials is possible with only use the oGCDs of the Healers

Maybe you should learn more about the game :)

Another main problem with healing in general, is how damage is delivered.

Damage is burst. You either live or die at once, no slow death and no healer ooming on normal pulls. If someone fails a mechanic, they receive burst damage with a debuff that makes the next burst even stronger. At a certain point, a healer can't do anything about that. I'm not saying burst damage is bad, but it doesn't need to be the only thing.

If everyone, or just the tank, takes a certain amount of damage at a specific time, it is just smarter play by using the least amount of resource (MP/Time/GCD) to heal while maintaining the ABC rule. It's up to SE to design encounters that encourage full use of healer kits, can't blame other players for how the state of healing is.

Quote:

---

Damage is burst. You either live or die at once, no slow death and no healer ooming on normal pulls. If someone fails a mechanic, they receive burst damage with a debuff that makes the next burst even stronger. At a certain point, a healer can't do anything about that. I'm not saying burst damage is bad, but it doesn't need to be the only thing.

---

The reason why these "burst + vuln up" mechanics have become so prevalent is that they are pretty much the only way to keep pressure up on a healer short of things like, greatly increasing the unavoidable raid-wide damage like savage does. Slow gradual damage doesn't really challenge the healers; as this topic proves, a lot of them can't even be bothered to put up a HoT to cover for it.

Quote:

---

It's up to SE to design encounters that encourage full use of healer kits, can't blame other players for how the state of healing is.

---

There is no encounter they could make that pushes out so much damage that it would keep a healer healing full time and also actually still be a fair balanced fight winnable by most of the playerbase. Even in ultimate, healers still push DPS as much as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Typhoria

Another main problem with healing in general, is how damage is delivered.

Damage is burst. You either live or die at once, no slow death and no healer ooming on normal pulls. If someone fails a mechanic, they receive burst damage with a debuff that makes the next burst even stronger. At a certain point, a healer can't do anything about that. I'm not saying burst damage is bad, but it doesn't need to be the only thing.

If everyone, or just the tank, takes a certain amount of damage at a specific time, it is just smarter play by using the least amount of resource (MP/Time/GCD) to heal while maintaining the ABC rule. It's up to SE to design encounters that encourage full use of healer kits, can't blame other players for how the state of healing is.

---

This is exactly what I'm trying to say, the second part especially. And whether the developers done it intentionally or otherwise it's still very much a big part of healing, minimizing resource usage while maximizing GCD usage which generally goes towards dps because part of minimizing resource usage is making good use of instant oGCDs.

I'm not saying there's something inherently wrong with focusing on healing; personally I don't mind what the rest of the party is doing most of the time as long as they aren't antagonising the party. It's not like I go around telling players they should heal less and dps more because that's the game's design; they can (and will) heal or dps as much as they themselves want to, and I'm not going to fault anyone for doing what they think is fun rather than what's best.

But at the same time, I'm not going to lie to myself about how the game or healers are. I'd love if focusing on healing and supporting the party was at the forefront of the role, but the current design puts dealing damage to the enemy right up there with healing as the job's focus precisely because of how valuable it can be

Why are tanks eating debuffs when their job is to be as resilient as possible? Why some tanks dont use relevant cooldowns on big pulls?

These threads dont really go anywhere because you can find faults with any class. You cannot get great players all the time. You need to know how to deal with it :)

Personally I am addicted to Regen, but I will admit I am one of those who uses it during the pull. Once the first group is grabbed it is going up so I can try to get my lillies up ASAP just in case there is a "WTF" moment during the pull or a slip up on the tanks part. Though I do also make it a habit to pop sprint and stand beside the tank, usually with Medica 2 or Holy casting so he can pick up any stragglers that peeled off during the train.

Is odd how even though regen was only reduced by 3 seconds it feels like it falls off a lot sooner than that.

I main as a PLD and WHM.

So, here are my thoughts:
PLD wants to be topped off for 1 or 2 abilities. A PLD grumbles at SE for making these useful abilities tied to the percentage of health you have where higher is more damage...
WHM, loves the regen, but then how will the WHM be able to feed that blood lily? I mean, that AoE attack is really nice. Oh, and so much free curing that are instant! And even if you use all 4 free instants, you can make all spells cost 0 for awhile.

Then we look at raids. The boss auto-attack is usually not that powerful and half the time, it is busy casting things and not auto-attacking. Regen cost a GCD that could be spent on a glare and use an instant for fast and powerful heals.

As for dungeons, I use regen if the tank pulls a large group. I often tie in a few long CDs heals and then get to spamming holy with PM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AuraAstra

Some healers (myself included) get a bit... twitchy... when our party isn't at or close to 100%. Because we're used to everyone else being completely incapable of avoiding avoidable mechanics and taking unnecessary damage. In pugs, I'll typically monitor the whole group's HP and hit them with one or more of my AoE heals (and maybe follow up with some Cure/Cure II/Solace if necessary) when the majority are under 75% health, so basically whenever raidwide damage goes out. This is partially because I don't trust them to stay alive if I don't, and partially because half the time it feels like my healing is having no effect, so I panic. Of course, in those situations Assize is my first reaction, or Plenary Indulgence followed by Medica II and Afflatus Rapture if I'm expecting more than one hit.

However this is also why I prefer WHM to AST or SCH - that type of "oh god everyone's dying must heal to full" healing is generally possible without burning through all of my mana.

---

But in this particular example except the tanks, the party literally can't die lol. It's not "I don't trust the DPS to do the next mechanic right and not kill themselves", they can't die even if they try unless there is a /suicide lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

The reason why these "burst + vuln up" mechanics have become so prevalent is that they are pretty much the only way to keep pressure up on a healer short of things like, greatly increasing the unavoidable raid-wide damage like savage does. Slow gradual damage doesn't really challenge the healers; as this topic proves, a lot of them can't even be bothered to put up a HoT to cover for it.

There is no encounter they could make that pushes out so much damage that it would keep a healer healing full time and also actually still be a fair balanced fight winnable by most of the playerbase. Even in ultimate, healers still push DPS as much as possible.

---

If the fights are done properly, all of current Eden and the 2 Ex Trials can be solo healed with plenty of opportunity to dps.

Something has to give considering that Ex is supposed to be "extreme." Also dungeons considered "expert" for the purpose of expert roulette. Both of those labels have a connotation and denotation of a harder challenge.

Let's take Ex Innocence for example since Titania auto attacks are significantly less...

At the most, as in a high roll, an unmitigated auto attack from Innocence on a tank might be 20k, and he attacks every 3 seconds. Counting hits that shouldn't happen with the debuff obviously won't be taken into consideration. A scholar with Titania weapon heals for ~13500 with an unbuffed non-crit Physick, for the sake of simplicity, every 2.5s, and Faerie Embrace heals for ~3200 unbuffed non-crit every 3s. After a solid minute of 20000 damage unmitigated Innocence autos, a tank has taken 420000 damage, while the Scholar and Faerie, using only unbuffed non-crit Physick/Embrace every GCD, heals for ~391200. If we take in consideration of a prepull Recitation Adloquium shielding for ~20000, the total damage Innocence auto attacks did to the tank would be under 5k.

Again this is with the tank using no cooldowns and the healer using the weakest healing spell with no healing buffs, damage reduction, or scoring any critical heals. Even at this point, every oGCD + the other healer(DPS) can be spent on making sure the rest of the group is healed.


Regarding a "slow dot" mechanic, it doesn't have to be a raid wide dot. Have 2 players soak a mechanic and gain ramping dot stacks where you need to swap people soaking to prevent too much build up. That way people other than tanks will constantly need heals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

I was down maybe 30% of the entirety of the fight because the whm can't stop glare spam.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hatstand

While letting you die is a problem, this isn’t. If the healers have things under control it’s better for them to dps than unnecessary healing.

---

Wait a minute, so letting me lay dead on the floor for a full 1/3 of the battle because they can't stop spamming glare isn't a problem because it would be unnecessary to raise me and having the whm just dps instead is ok?

Now for context, this was on our 3rd attempt after 2 wipes and the other 2 I died in the wipe, not beforehand. This was literally my first screw up, its not like I was constantly dying left and right to sheer idiocy and they were wasting mp keeping me up. Nope this is just bad/lazy heals.