So about Summoner...

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

It's comes down to how you personally think things should be ballanced:

-ballanced around what average/below average players can do

Or

-ballance around the potential of what the job is capable of

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Balance around what good/better players usually can do. For me 75th percentile is a good benchmark for balancing. It reflects what good players are able to do without being pushed, without having best in slot gear, without having the best luck with random mechanics without having (their) best group composition.
I would not balance for average (50th percentile) because this contains too many players that don't play the class right or fail too much at mechanics.

I think that's the reason why fflogs shows 75th percentile by default for statistics because it reflects what the class usually is able to achieve.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Verraise is useless in relation to necromancer though lol. And they need to increase the power of refresh potions for potd so other jobs can get through it as well, however even rdm has only seen two solo potds afaik.

Its really just potd and hoh that are affected and even then just for very niche achievements. Nothing else is really harmed.

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never said verraise is related to necromancer... I said its just not enough to delete verraise to open up pot buffs for raiding - cause rdm than still have the pve advantage. about "nothing else is really harmed"... well that depends on personal priorities - those who don't play savage shouldn't suffer of cls-streamling design just because the 1% elite is unsatisfied with their speed-run options... : /

its the question in every mmo - should balance be based on endgame or on casual play? : o

My issue isn't that RDM is behind summoner. That's part of it, but RDM's damage is on the same tier as bard's; square has stated they balance so more utility = less dps. Logically speaking then either RDM should have the same level of utility and damage support ad bard, or they consider verraise to be their support.

It's not the former so it must be the latter, however square is just flat wrong about spam raise being equivalent to the amount of support a bard can bring. First, summoner already brings all the raises a group should need--both in and out of prog, excepting bleeding edge prog. Second, that utility loses value very quickly over the tier.

Basically, my problem is RDM is one of the weakest dps for no real reason.

My answer to that Neela is it should be balanced on high end content, because people playing at that end are the only ones who are going to run into issues like this. Zera said it beautifully earlier: every player can get better to get more out of their job, but system enforced caps can only be changed by the system.

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Originally Posted by Megguido

Imo, I prefer having a job that is not "meta" and have fun with it rather than playing something I have less fun with. Savage raids can be cleared with any team composition, having a meta comp doesn't mean having more success. Our team had a WHM, DRK, RDM, SAM and MNK, so very little raid buffs, and cleared all Sigma savage just fine.

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thats how our static plays as well - last savage tier we run 2x smn 2x drk and it was unproblematic. we are just casual/mid lvl but if people play what they like and have fun with, all that meta bullshit flies away. some people should just step back from this meta blah... as long as all cls actually "can" clear savage its not a real "balance-problem" its more a personal problem of people seeing their main cls in a worser spot than others. (and don't start bs like "said a smn" pls)

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

My answer to that Neela is it should be balanced on high end content, because people playing at that end are the only ones who are going to run into issues like this. Zera said it beautifully earlier: every player can get better to get more out of their job, but system enforced caps can only be changed by the system.

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well I'm not with u at this point... f.e. why should pve player take the loss of raise or a weaker heal on rdm just because raider want them more viable for there reasons... - see the problem with thinking like that? every cls-adjustments for raiding will effect pve as well. sad that elite-raiders seem to forget that from time to time... q.q

we discussed that matter more than once in discord... actually if u want balance in savage, the cls' need a savage-profil just like the pvp-profils - less skills more balance... easier to adjust single skills faster with hot fixes... but well more streamline and more boredom as well...

its the only way to separate savage from casual content in matter of balance : /

Else there will always be top tier cls and "haha what do YOU want here" cls... no matter how hard they try balancing in general.

Obviously on some level you do care, Neela; otherwise you wouldn't frequent threads in the caster wars defending summoner. It matters on some visceral level that summoner be performing well in raid, otherwise you wouldn't bring up Summoner's past difficulties in raiding, and you don't want to go back to what that was.

It's that level of care that people like Zerathor and I also have. We obviously play what we want over summoner, however we do so knowing we're holding the group back by not playing summoner instead. By a not so insignificant margin.

You're acting like raiding isn't pve when that's all raiding is. You can say "There are things outside savage" all you like but most if not all of it is savage toned down by a lot.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Obviously on some level you do care, Neela; otherwise you wouldn't frequent threads in the caster wars defending summoner. It matters on some visceral level that summoner be performing well in raid, otherwise you wouldn't bring up Summoner's past difficulties in raiding, and you don't want to go back to what that was.

It's that level of care that people like Zerathor and I also have. We obviously play what we want over summoner, however we do so knowing we're holding the group back by not playing summoner instead. By a not so insignificant margin.

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well and thats one of your mistakes - u think I'm just pro smn whats not the case, I play heal and brd as well from time to time - tho this is not "I'm smn and all the others can suck my balls" mentality. also its not me who always bring that smn vs. xyz back on the table if I say something general to raiding. my very first comment in this thread was kinda neutral - but just because my profile says I'm smn Zera began to strike on that, what actually was totally unrelated to:

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Originally Posted by Neela

"nerf xyz cause its stronger than my cls"

needs to die at first - cause thats what it is all about - in every "meta" topic ever since... /thread

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a general opinion about raiding and one which has nothing to do with the op-ness of smns or other specific cls'.


But im not gonna lie: on the other hand at this state yeah I'm happy to be smn cause we perform good and finally have fun in savage too. whoop whoop. :3 - (thats why I said finally & mentioned the past thats all.)

but I was happy in arr & hw as well and I will stick to smn in 5.0 as well even if we are back to bottom like we were used to be. I don't chose my main based on fflogs performance or raidspots. I play smn cause I like pet cls in mmos. switching mains to perform "best" is just another personal problem of people who can't stand mid or bottom. but often the things those people complain about are actually not that important/relevant in an objective point of view - f.e. "good blm do high dmg, can clear all savage tier and even ultimate" this is true no doubt around it everything else in this thread is personal ego driven - easy like that.

if people always want to be on top - there is no way around switching cls from tier to tier - easy like that again... : /

and whats the matter with "holding back the grp" if you play with your static & friends? another argument which lose weight somehow... oh pf I see... yeah pf... if someone goes savage via pf the whole speedkill/meta/raidbuffs talk is obsolete... so why exactly do u have a bad feeling "holding your grp back" by playing what you personal like most? : /

Was nice talking to you for a while Neela. You managed to hold a small conversation before the rampant strawmanning began.

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Originally Posted by Neela

snip.

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It's a pretty bad feeling to hold back your group for your own benefit of enjoying a certain job. Be it a casual static group, a hard core prog group, a speed kill group, or even a pf group.

Knowing it was YOUR choice that may have caused that wipe at 1% enrage because somebody was dead 10 seconds longer than they should have or various other situations like that. It's a bad feeling to know your choice could have saved everybody time. Your choice could have involved clearing that content a week earlier. And you chose not to because you wanted to play your preferred job at everyone's expense. It's just... a bad feeling.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

rampant strawmanning

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hmm... i see

..well we should stop that here, tho yeah was nice talking to you as well.

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Originally Posted by Neela

but I was happy in arr & hw as well and I will stick to smn in 5.0 as well even if we are back to bottom like we were used to be. I don't chose my main based on fflogs performance or raidspots. I play smn cause I like pet cls in mmos. switching mains to perform "best" is just another personal problem of people who can't stand mid or bottom. but often the things those people complain about are actually not that important/relevant in an objective point of view - f.e. "good blm do high dmg, can clear all savage tier and even ultimate" this is true no doubt around it everything else in this thread is personal ego driven - easy like that.

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^ I played SMN in HW when it was still considered garbage-tier, and also through the start of SB. I picked it up when I realized that BLM didn't have Bio/Miasma/Etc that I was expecting from playing single player Final Fantasies. My biggest disappointment is that it's no longer a DoT mage, but I got really attached to the pet mechanics of it, so I still love it.

All I gotta say on this topic is if you're on here whining about your class, you're probably not good enough to be in the 90th percentile anyway, so anything FFlogs says about your class doesn't apply lol. Take a step back, go find a group that's here to have fun and not force a class you don't like onto you. If you have some misplaced guilt about "holding the group back" that's your own issue and no one else's. Practice, learn, get better. Stop expecting someone to spoon feed victory to you. I know both BLM and RDM mains that put SMN to shame on a regular basis, so never give up and blame it on class balance!

gosh finally someone who understands what my comments are all about – thx! :3

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

All I gotta say on this topic is if you're on here whining about your class, you're probably not good enough to be in the 90th percentile anyway, so anything FFlogs says about your class doesn't apply lol. Take a step back, go find a group that's here to have fun and not force a class you don't like onto you. If you have some misplaced guilt about "holding the group back" that's your own issue and no one else's. Practice, learn, get better. Stop expecting someone to spoon feed victory to you. I know both BLM and RDM mains that put SMN to shame on a regular basis, so never give up and blame it on class balance!

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Aight, brb one sec. OK, i'm back-
https://www.fflogs.com/character/id/2880611
I did it. I got gud. Blm still needs support to be a real competitive option ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Any other assumptions? Or does your name describe your post?

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

All I gotta say on this topic is if you're on here whining about your class, you're probably not good enough to be in the 90th percentile anyway, so anything FFlogs says about your class doesn't apply lol. Take a step back, go find a group that's here to have fun and not force a class you don't like onto you. If you have some misplaced guilt about "holding the group back" that's your own issue and no one else's. Practice, learn, get better. Stop expecting someone to spoon feed victory to you. I know both BLM and RDM mains that put SMN to shame on a regular basis, so never give up and blame it on class balance!

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https://ishouldbewashingclothes.file...-the-point.png

Show me a RDM main beating a SMN main in serious content and I'll show you a bad SMN main who for whatever reason isn't optimized whatsoever.

Edit: regarding "you're only blaming class balance because you're bad!" https://www.fflogs.com/character/id/186645

I'm not as impressive as Zera is, but there ya go. Orange to purple with 86.5 average best. Could I improve? Yes absolutely. However I'm by no means uninformed on how to optimize and get the most out of RDM just because I see the reality that Summoner plum beats it out.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

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Won't lie, that's still really impressive for a rdm to pull off. Pretty nice (especially lacking battle litany).

But yeah, there's dualgunner's point:
outside of world first prog rdm falls behind hard, and outside of needing to carry a group past enrage that doesn't die but still lacks dps, blm falls behind. Smn is almost equal to rdm for prog value while providing enough dps to be viable in speed kill comps. And there lies the issue discussed.

Smn's kit seems like it should be jack of all trades, master of none, but it's currently about master of all.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

http://fs1.directupload.net/images/180615/rknu9yt5.png

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fixed ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Current savage fights are tuned in such a way DPS checks and enrage timers are possible to pass with any team comp. Sure you'll make it a bit easier by playing SMN instead of RDM. But then, if you can't pass a DPS check as RDM, the issue is not the job, it's either yourself or the team that is lacking damage (lacking damage not because they play "undertuned" jobs, but because they can't play it properly).

I can understand the feeling of playing a job that deal 500 flat DPS less than its counterpart, that you feel less impactful. But please, saying you're holding the team back because you're playing RDM instead of SMN is complete bullshit. "Oh we would have cleared 1 week earlier if we passed the 1% enrage, but we couldn't because you player a sh.t job" isn't an argument, because during progression a SMN won't have so much DPS than a RDM.

SMN perform so well over RDM because we're like 4 months after the raid tier release. Because a SMN needs to know all the timings in the fight to take advantage of their burst phase (and that's not the only one in this case). On the other hand, a RDM is much more adaptative and can still dish out good damage. The statistical DPS difference wasn't that high during the first month of Sigmascape savage, because RDMs were way faster at optimizing their damage than SMN.

I'll take my own experience as an example. I was playing with a team of about same skill level. DPS were BRD/MNK/SAM/RDM, and during progression, RDM was either 1st or 2nd DPS of the team, every single time, because MNK and SAM had to learn how to deal with positionals and uptime while doing mechanics, whereas RDM were much more free to do mechanics. We had no ninja nor dragoon to boost our damahe output, but we still had enough damage to pass all DPS checks (even with a BRD without piercing debuff, a SAM that brings nothing to the team much like BLM, and RDM that is supposed to be the least damaging job).

Once again, if your team fails at 1% enrage they can't blame you for playing RDM or BLM instead of SMN. Don't feel bad because you aren't playing the right job and holding your team back. Feel bad because you f.cked up your rotation or a mechanic. It's the same reasoning kids have on video games : "I lost because my character is bad" instead of "I lost because I played poorly".

while this is true and absolutely mirrors my point of view - "reality" seems to look different for the top 1%...

there are two major mindsets overall in this comm if we look on caster f.e its like

Mindset 1%:
RDM: lol...
SMN: op
BLM: mimimi

Conclusion: "I have to play smn to be cool - se get your shit together fuckers... I don't wanna be "forced" to play smn mimimi"


Mindset Casual/mid core
RDM: super cool for several non-endgame content, moderate dmg and fun with less afford/punishment, awesome for progress/first encounter
SMN: super flexible and high mobility -> fun in raiding and non endgame content, flashi pet, flexible
BLM: boom, boom, boom great for dng speed runs, item farm and fate-content

Conclusion: "I like caster in general - so much varity, I can always choose the best fit for my specific goal in any content."


yet the raiders still want balance based on endgame and still don't wanna except that SE politics goes for casual/new gamer > veteran endgame since HW. Everything went easier from leaf status, over skill structures, gear farming etc. SE said it more than once.... (we can discuss if its the right way in customer service to focus novice instead of veterans - but thats not the point here.) They also stated "cls which mechanics which needs a lil bit more afford to be effective deserve to be on top"

but this mind of se - is actually not what elites wanna hear so this "balance war threads" won't disappear in the future... actually its not worth even trying to discuss this matter... but well yeah humanity...

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Originally Posted by Megguido

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You fail to understand this. There are more scenarios for a blm giving 100% to wipe than a smn giving 100%. It's not entirely your input, it's how insanely stronger smn can carry a group. It's selfish to not use it unless it's just weekly clears.

Viable=/=optimal. It's viable to do god kefka with 4 rdm's 2 drk, and 2 ast. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Neela

u think I'm just pro smn

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Don't worry, nobody here thinks that.

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Originally Posted by Neela

SE politics goes for casual/new gamer > veteran endgame since HW.

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Seriously, what universe are you in? You must be lost, this is Final Fantasy XIV if you were unsure.

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Originally Posted by Neela

snip

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You can't be that extreme either. Savage and Ultimate are the content that require the most balance about jobs. Who cares that SAM is doing twice the damage of a MCH in a dungeon or against Ifrit HM ?

Though does it require almost perfect balance ? And balance cannot be perfect either. If you boost RDM damage by 500 or 600 to make it on par with SMN, you have to consider that it will be stupidly powerful at lower levels. Current RDM, sync'ed at lvl 50, is kinda the highest DPS job.

I don't say SE should balance job around low lvl. I'm saying that it's a consequence of balancing jobs at high level. The reverse reasoning can apply to SMN. Nerf its damage at lvl 70, and it might be significantly harder to play it at lvl 50, to the point leveling is a pain.

SE can't just say "Hey guys got an idea, give 500 DPS to the RDM so they're good kay ?" and be done with it.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

You fail to understand this. There are more scenarios for a blm giving 100% to wipe than a smn giving 100%. It's not entirely your input, it's how insanely stronger smn can carry a group. It's selfish to not use it unless it's just weekly clears.

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I think you didn't get a crucial detail. SMN isn't a very "prog-friendly" job. Their damage will suffer a lot until they know the fight. SMN excels at weekly clears, high DPS, fast runs. But on progression, a SMN will have a hard time (much like BLM I believe). The only way a SMN can carry a party is if the DPS is barely enough to pass the enrage timer. And usually, if the DPS isn't enough, it's because people died to stupid, are really undergeared, don't know a proper DPS rotation or couldn't execute it because of the mechanics. Not because you didn't bring the meta job.

So yeah, maybe I can carry a group with SMN better than with BLM, granted. Then should they balance jobs around PUGs ? Please make this job stronger so I can carry imbeciles ?

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

[...]All I gotta say on this topic is if you're on here whining about your class, you're probably not good enough to be in the 90th percentile anyway, so anything FFlogs says about your class doesn't apply lol. [...] I know both BLM and RDM mains that put SMN to shame on a regular basis, so never give up and blame it on class balance!

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These two statements have very little value, here's why:
- Some people here are at 90th percentile. And even if we're not, there is data to prove the point. Though we must consider the sample (more people playing SMN than BLM for example). Saying "lol ur bad, git gud" isn't a valid argument.
- You know BLM and RDM that put SMN to shame I do not doubt about that. I also put SMN to shame with DRK or PLD. Doesn't mean DRK is overpowered, just means their SMN is played by someone that has no idea what they are doing.

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Originally Posted by Megguido

I think you didn't get a crucial detail. SMN isn't a very "prog-friendly" job. Their damage will suffer a lot until they know the fight. SMN excels at weekly clears, high DPS, fast runs. But on progression, a SMN will have a hard time (much like BLM I believe). The only way a SMN can carry a party is if the DPS is barely enough to pass the enrage timer. And usually, if the DPS isn't enough, it's because people died to stupid, are really undergeared, don't know a proper DPS rotation or couldn't execute it because of the mechanics. Not because you didn't bring the meta job.

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The only situation it's not prog friendly is if you're dying with all your stacks. Other than that, it's extremely flexible while being able to raise.

It seems like the only thing a smn needs to learn on a fight is if they need to hold anything for aoe if adds exist in the fight. Aside from that, the rotation is very straightforward.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

The only situation it's not prog friendly is if you're dying with all your stacks. Other than that, it's extremely flexible while being able to raise.

It seems like the only thing a smn needs to learn on a fight is if they need to hold anything for aoe if adds exist in the fight. Aside from that, the rotation is very straightforward.

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You probably didn't play SMN enough then. SMN isn't extremely flexible. It is extremely mobile, yes, not flexible. Mess your DoTs timing, bahamut phase, aetherflow timing, and you wreck your entire rotation. Die at two dreadwyrm stack, and you lose two minutes of buildup. Two minutes. That's between 20 and 25% of the length of a fight. At any point of the fight, the SMN should either have aether stacks, aether trail or dreadwyrm stacks, lose any of those and you're f.cked.

Also

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It seems like the only thing a smn needs to learn on a fight is if they need to hold anything for aoe if adds exist in the fight.

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Clearly shows your lack of knowledge about SMN. I do not doubt about your performance and knowledge about BLM, but don't assume you know that much about SMN. Didn't you ever get rekt because you summon Bahamut when the boss decided to fly away / become untargetable ? Start your trance and get stunned / out of range / boss untargetable just before deathflare ? Your pet getting oneshot by the tankbuster so you can't summon Bahamut ? It's not just "lulz got 3 aetherstack for add phase muh AoE".

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Don't worry, nobody here thinks that.


Seriously, what universe are you in? You must be lost, this is Final Fantasy XIV if you were unsure.

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u are as embarrassing as always I never said "I'm a pro smn" I said "you think I'm pro smn con everything else" (learn to read before trying to be funny idiot :*) 2nd if u didn't even know their late HW politics yet - just stop talking there are more than enough interviews and q&as where they explicit said that they focus on new player lol and easier cls-design, thats also a point why they brought ultimate for veterans in the first place - cause everything else went way easier... but like I said veterans don't wanna hear that - another personal problem of you which u just don't realize. ^^

I thought a super hero like u already knew that... but well if you didn't get that, no wonder why you are talking so much bs in an arrogant way - its classy posing without background : /

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Originally Posted by Megguido

You probably didn't play SMN enough then. SMN isn't extremely flexible. It is extremely mobile, yes, not flexible. Mess your DoTs timing, bahamut phase, aetherflow timing, and you wreck your entire rotation. Die at two dreadwyrm stack, and you lose two minutes of buildup. Two minutes. That's between 20 and 25% of the length of a fight. At any point of the fight, the SMN should either have aether stacks, aether trail or dreadwyrm stacks, lose any of those and you're f.cked.

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It's true they lose a huge ammount of dps from dying due to all the set up lost, but in prog the power of a raise still outweighs this imo to get further into the fight and accelerate the learning process. Their mobility also gives them more chances to not die, so the dying shouldn't become a huge issue for a smn.

And I actually do a bit of smn and have been using it in UwU. It's really not that bad. Don't die (you're mobile enough to have no excuse to) don't let your pet get cleaved. Hold swift for raise. Push the buttons. Something like burning a cd in the wrong place and wasting it should be a mistake you only make once because you learned from it (for any job)

Unless something changes, I'll probably prog o9-12s when it comes as smn because this job is just silly.

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Originally Posted by Neela

REEEEEEEEEEEE

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Ah yes, how silly of me to forget that it's Limsa ERP that is the core ballancing factor of the game. Definitely not raiding. That would be silly.

well like I said - still chillin in your glasshouse go on ^^

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Their mobility also gives them more chances to not die, so the dying shouldn't become a huge issue for a smn.

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Except summoner not have any emergency heal like second wind, vercure or mana ward like other jobs. Energy drain only heal 2k hp and physic 700 and waste global on top of that. As long you dont make misstakes, dying with summoner is easier than any other job. I have had multiple situation on BLM once mana ward have saved my life.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Except summoner not have any emergency heal like second wind, vercure or mana ward like other jobs. Energy drain only heal 2k hp and physic 700 and waste global on top of that. As long you dont make misstakes, dying with summoner is easier than any other job. I have had multiple situation on BLM once mana ward have saved my life.

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No emergency safety button, but you shouldn't need to worry about getting hit by anything dodgeable. Smn doesn't have to greed to not fall on its face and ruin it's rotation like blm. It can just.... dodge. Mana ward is cool, but I recall using it 9/10 times to intentionally eat something I could dodge, but I wanted to get another cast off.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

No emergency safety button, but you shouldn't need to worry about getting hit by anything dodgeable. Smn doesn't have to greed to not fall on its face and ruin it's rotation like blm. It can just.... dodge. Mana ward is cool, but I recall using it 9/10 times to intentionally eat something I could dodge, but I wanted to get another cast off.

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I dont think mobility is good reason for dying. Sounds more like l2p issue. If you dont understand mechanics you die regardless what job you play. I just did Godka with blm this week and did not have any issue with mobility. As long you understand mechanics you can do literally same content with any job.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

I dont think mobility is good reason for dying. Sounds more like l2p issue. If you dont understand mechanics you die regardless what job you play. I just did Godka with blm this week and did not have any issue with mobility. As long you understand mechanics you can do literally same content with any job.

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You can, but depending where you're at it can be bad. Are you halfway through a f4 and you have to cancel? You just wasted about 400 potency. Are you at f1 or b3 and you have to move? You lost 150-200 potency as well as threw away your foul build up, so potentially another 650 potency. Not to mention slow casting a b3 or an f3 after a mistake like that. You have to gauge if you'll be able to move at the last second for some things, or lose a TON of damage (the only thing you bring)

Smn: oh boy, I lost 20p...

I'm fine with the mobility of blm, but I'd be lying if I didn't die a few times from trying to not derail my rotation. On smn, I don't even think about it, I just dodge. There's nowhere near as much reward for the risk.

Imo BLM mobility is really good in this expansion, idk why ppl still complain about it. It is like playing healer without cleric stance. so much easier than 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Imo BLM mobility is really good in this expansion, idk why ppl still complain about it. It is like playing healer without cleric stance. so much easier than 3.0.

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Because they're bad at their job.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Imo BLM mobility is really good in this expansion, idk why ppl still complain about it. It is like playing healer without cleric stance. so much easier than 3.0.

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It really is pretty good. But to say it isn't easier to dodge while losing zero to minimal damage on smn, would be wrong. This feels more like I'm playing bard than a caster.

Again, zero issues with blm mobility, but for how much more mobile smn is, it shold have some trade off like missing a defensive. And that's not even too bad of a trade. I think it's a really strong trade in most scenarios actually.

ruin 2 is a 20 potency loss in exchange for maximum movement. DWT is free movement, and ruin 4 is free movement. the only smn who complain about ruin 2 are those smn that tend to push high dps but even then, 20 potency for maximum mobility is a great deal especially in progression. RDM dualcast is nice but requiring a cast causes the job pains when it needs to bait AOE such as eruptions that spawn pretty frequently. BLM will generally have triplecast, but Healers tend to cover for them on mechanics where they can.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Unless something changes, I'll probably prog o9-12s when it comes as smn because this job is just silly.

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I'm bagging you for that!... if that means you will probably quit talking about a cls you are not familiar with. I can't stand those "words of wisdom" Meg already proved wrong. Bahamut at prog is just annoying and u didn't even need to die to mess up the Dragon... facing the advantages of mobility with the clunky Bahamut is really not prog-friendly, Bahamut without max stacks = flat Bahamut, Bahamut up while getting used to new mechanic = flat Bahamut, Bahamut out of raid buff windows = flat Bahamut, Bahamut up infront of downtimes = flat Bahamut. Smn simply aren't those "burst monster" you like to call them in prog. Like Meg said they face the exact same problem Blms do to be max. effectiv: knowing the exact times of mechanics and adjustments of partywide buffs as well for their burst window... after mch its the most punished burst-cls ingame. so how does this fit progression?

smn can move in payoff of pot loss yeah and they have a swiftcast res yeah... but thats all for progress, u can't count bahamut as an prog advantage, nor u can swap egis efficiently not knowing the downtimes... that alone will cut smns dps in prog kinda heavily... compared to farm/speedruns.

...but all I read from your side is "u have a raise = prog monster".... but please... that can't be your one&only major-argument... q.q


-> anyway go for smn and we can close this topic once and for all... ^^'

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neela

REEEEEEEEEEE

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I'm still not entirely sure how I'm unfamiliar with it when I already play it. Why are you even trying?

because every sentence u said about your glorious experience regarding smn is proved wrong up until your very last post – and thats not just by me but even more detailed and objective by other members and u still try to shine... thats funny :3

also if people read carefully u just answer to the points you think u have an argument for other points and questions you just ignore cause u know people are right - whats even funnier than trying to shine...

oh and last but not least.... Im bored q.q