The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

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Originally Posted by Quor

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Alright...now that I finally got a chance to read the whole thing...

Basically, your whole post could be easily summed up as, "I want to stay average and not have to earn my clear/loot because we, the Averagers, do not appreciate that we can't spend the entirety of a 90 minute instance whittling a boss' HP down because we will not try to optimize our job skill sets at the same time as passing every mechanic. We, the Averagers, feel that healers should do their one job and keep us healed and alive and not worry about DPS, that way we can kill our bosses through attrition. Then Lucky Bancho and show the world that clear rates are sky high.

Also, something something and something else in bold. Like this."

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Alright...now that I finally got a chance to read the whole thing...

Basically, your whole post could be easily summed up as, "I want to stay average and not have to earn my clear/loot because we, the Averagers, do not appreciate that we can't spend the entirety of a 90 minute instance whittling a boss' HP down because we will not try to optimize our job skill sets at the same time as passing every mechanic. We, the Averagers, feel that healers should do their one job and keep us healed and alive and not worry about DPS, that way we can kill our bosses through attrition. Then Lucky Bancho and show the world that clear rates are sky high.

Also, something something and something else in bold. Like this."

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You forgot the part about italics.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Why do we even have them any more?

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So how you would check the level of player skill for class competency?

The content is not just about "be at the right level" or "have enough gear".

Its also "be competent enough to master the battle design" and "be competent enough to play your class well enough". The higher the content, the more you need to be able to be good in both at the same time.

With your suggestion you could win the fight by just hitting one single button for damage.

There would be no reason to bring DPS classes at all into a battle, except for speed runs. Damage rotations and stat weights would also be completely useless.

I am sorry OP but enrage timers should stay. Dungeons are already way too easy even if we dont outgear them. Taking away the only thing that could possible stop a group would make the skill gap even bigger. Yes its annoying if you have to put out even more DPS, if the others are not doing their part but at least this might give some people a wake up call and maybe question if they need to improve.

I am not saying that the enrage timer should be harder but without that, what will be there to stop people from just brain afking through the stuff? Should they just throw a huge amount of one-kill mechanics on bosses to make them more difficult that way? Which would mean that everyone with a bit of laggs or bad connection will have huge problems. No let it stay that way.

And sorry to say, but savage is the hardest content in the game..if your group cant beat the enrage timer than you are just simply not good enough for it. I am not doing savage because that is just too stressfull for me..but I also dont go to the forums and hope that SE makes it so easy that I can do that too. No if I want to beat it I would have to put the work behind that too.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

So how you would check the level of player skill for class competency?

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I herd talk about bringing Kirin back like in ff11. I will be really sad if its just a 10 min rage instants.

The whole fun of Sky in ff11 was that is was an open world experience with smaller notorious monsters dropping items that eventually lead to larger ones. To get a Kirin set of items it would take a few days. Even then it might be an event that only happened once of twice a month if you have an active group doing it. It was a true end game.

FF14 end game is, log in, join a group in PF, kill something a few times, log out. All in a span of an hour or less.

I really hope Kirin is not downgraded to a 10min rage boss fight. It would be messing with my childhood memories.

Well, the way the game is set up they need enrage, but it's not a particularly fun mechanic as it is. I wonder sometimes if it wouldn't be better just to have the boss wipe everyone after so many deaths, since repeated deaths are the biggest component, and then have multipel dps checks through the fight. The enrage can make it that you can't recover from a fight, despite overcoming a flurry of deaths.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Well, the way the game is set up they need enrage, but it's not a particularly fun mechanic as it is. I wonder sometimes if it wouldn't be better just to have the boss wipe everyone after so many deaths, since repeated deaths are the biggest component, and then have multipel dps checks through the fight. The enrage can make it that you can't recover from a fight, despite overcoming a flurry of deaths.

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Coil T12 had something like that in a soft enrage mechanic. For phase 2, for every person who died, he gained a stack that increased his damage output. Too many deaths and he gained too much damage output, and you were basically boned. Mayhap they could bring that mechanic back instead of hard enrages all over the shop?

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Coil T12 had something like that in a soft enrage mechanic. For phase 2, for every person who died, he gained a stack that increased his damage output. Too many deaths and he gained too much damage output, and you were basically boned. Mayhap they could bring that mechanic back instead of hard enrages all over the shop?

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I personally wouldn't mind seeing a level of mechanics that are equal to T9. T9 unsynced is still a bigger challenge for some players than Susano Ex. Maybe that fight could be mostly a soft enrage, where if you take too long, it will become impossible to pass a mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Coil T12 had something like that in a soft enrage mechanic. For phase 2, for every person who died, he gained a stack that increased his damage output. Too many deaths and he gained too much damage output, and you were basically boned. Mayhap they could bring that mechanic back instead of hard enrages all over the shop?

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Do you know the difference between hard and soft enrage? A hard enrage is when boss just kills you after x amount of time and a soft enrage just means bosses abilities will eventually wipe the team if you play bad. Current tier doesn't have soft enrages, but last tier did, in Cruise chaser savage with pillars and stuff. It doesn't honestly matter if you do soft or hard enrages, people demanding to be allowed to do barely minimal effort or less cause its "fun for them" (screw the others though, their fun is the one that matters most in a team game, yea) or don't pay my sub or whatever will always find something to complain about difficulties of fights. Like Shinryu or Nidhogg normal mode or that solo instance with Lakhsmi in 4.1 was also too hard.

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Originally Posted by Kaonis

Enrage has always been a cheap thing to do. It's not bad for some fights, but they abuse the hell out of it in their designs. They should just stick to most fights having a DPS check in the fight like meteors on neo instead of every fight being a DPS check to prevent a hard enrage.

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There have multiple similar things in the thread, and I don't believe anyone has said anything about this. But basically it boils down to remove dps check that wipes the team in the end for lack of dps, and replace it with dps check that wipes the team. If these new "dps checks" wouldn't kill you for failing them, then you wouldn't even need to do them, justheal through and ignore, which would make them a non-dps check. If they were to do that, then these dps checks would be significantly harder and people wouldn't be able to limp through them, and the clear rates would be just the same as they currently are, and then people would rally at the forums, asking for meteor nerfs instead.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

As a compromise, they could have it so that if you don't beat it by the official original enrage time, you loose a chest, after a bit more time, the next chest goes and so does any titles / rewards. You got a clear but you got just that a clear only, no rewards or anything else. It has a similar effect as an enrage, punish poor performance but it would allow people to just get through it. It would also make for some very interesting specialty runs where people try to do the encounter with the fewest people possible.

But if we do want to keep the enrage timers and address the people who say "well why didn't the boss attack us like this in the beginning", just make up some lore like the boss is powering up or the ceiling will fall or some other deus ex machina reason.

Anyhow... I'm fine with the current system, it works. Yes it sucks that you get 1% wipes but the victory feels all the better when you do clear it. If we did away with enrages we would loose the nerd screams when clears do happen and who doesn't love a good nerd scream? ;)

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So essentially clear but don't clear because the clear is made worthless :D?

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Originally Posted by Dzian

not always something you can correct yourself if your not the one making the mistakes. and sometimes its not even mistakes it's just people being a bit more cautious with mechanics.

I generally play with friends so i'm not the guy that's gonna boot one of them out because them out because they are able to mechanics perfectly just not fall a fraction short on dps... and generally when you see wipes at 2-3% despite the fact you've survived everything to that point. it's infuriating and generally puts players off wanting to try again....

if they scrapped enrages but had more dps checks the overall difficulty of content wouldn't change that much but it would just get rid of those wipes that screw you over when you've actually done nothing wrong...

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See now, thats hte problem, if you meet the enrage, either you or someone in your raidgroup DID something wrong, its not like the enrage timers are 2 minutes to get to neo or wipe, its a decently tight one, but nothing that a group of dedicated people can't do. If you give up instantly you see 2 to 3% enrage, maybe it just isn't the content for you?

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Originally Posted by Bobs

It's an ongoing theme. The game had gone so heavily into DPS that Tanks and Healers are now criticized for not doing enough DPS. There have been threads on that subject and I fell this falls into the same root cause.

Can we just take a step back for a second. A Tank and a Healer who already has a full time job of tanking or healing is being criticized for not doing enough DPS.

The game is going into an odd direction.

Maybe it's just the old mmo player in me but "End Game" should take more than 10min. It makes it feel more like a side project. I'm hoping that new Relic gear when ever it comes out actually takes time to complete. Really not into the idea of microwave mmo experience.

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Full time job? Please, if it was a full time job, then you would HAVE TO heal 100% of the time or people would die, or you would HAVE TO mitigate 100% of the time (also not possible mind you, but you would need to if it were). The amount of healer/tank specific things (healing and mitigation) you need to do is like 30 to 50 or 60% of the instance (depending on the instance, anything from dungeons to raids) and rest is just downtime. What do you do then? Stand around? Heal (or rather, overheal cause no one is taking any damage)? Mitigate (which is again not possible 100% of the time anyway, so essentially stand around)? Or contribute to the group performance and do some DPS?

Also, endgame does take more than 10 minutes, but if you only do Rabanastre once a week and omega normal mode and dungeons you are missing a big chunk of it, which is the stuff that does take more than 10 minutes to clear.

This is some next level salt over the WAR changes OP

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

sure you can have enrage timers removed. you just don't get any loot after the fight and it doesn't count towards an actual clear.

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This actually made me think of "Hard Mode" Hodir from the Ulduar raid in WoW, where only by killing it fast enough would it get you the extra rewards. I wouldn't mind a system like that either.

Enrage timers act as a gear check, a numbers check (aka do you know how to play your class) and a tactical check. Removing this would trivialise so many fights. It also wouldn't remove soft enrages such as a difficult combination of mechanics or healers running out of mana because the fight lasts too long. So there would still be enrages of some nature to deal with.

Removing enrage timers will NOT stop tanks and healers being expected to contribute to dps. I main a healer and no matter what content I'm in, enrage timer or none, I'm expected to dps.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I personally wouldn't mind seeing a level of mechanics that are equal to T9. T9 unsynced is still a bigger challenge for some players than Susano Ex. Maybe that fight could be mostly a soft enrage, where if you take too long, it will become impossible to pass a mechanic.

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T9 has enrage timers. First phase meteors have a soft enrage of dropping more than 6 meteors; miss that DPS check and it's a wipe. Phase 2 heavensfall has a soft enrage with the pattern getting more complex for each drop and the dragon tethers adding death stacks. The final phase also has a hard enrage (if I remember correctly). None of the soft-enrages were that difficult to get through, but I've seen groups failing meteors, heavensfall and garrote twist stacks.

I'm casual by choice and frankly I have no issue with enrage timers. If a party can't clear them then that's on the people who are slacking, not the game itself. Yes it can suck when you're farming something for gear and you keep getting parties full of people desiring carries but overall the bar should not be lowered just to accommodate those people. Likewise I really don't get the hatred of healer/tank DPS and the perception that taking it away will somehow make content easier. It's really, really not going to change the mind of people who refuse to improve if suddenly you took away the damage capabilities of the support roles. None of the people who aren't willing to learn even the most basic of rotations will suddenly up their game; and frankly I find the idea of hamstringing another role just to make things easier for yourself exceedingly selfish.

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Originally Posted by Enla

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And yet they are constantly changing tank/healer numbers to shoehorn them into a second role they are not really designed for. 4.2 is just the latest example of this.

Someone before said "People would just have tanks and healers in the fight then if no enrage timers" WAR will probably be doing dmg close to DPS class now in 4.2. So Yes, that is where this is going 6 WAR and 2 Healers.

Why would you need DPS if WAR can do the job the same as DPS and take less dmg doing it.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

And yet they are constantly changing tank/healer numbers to shoehorn them into a second role they are not really designed for. 4.2 is just the latest example of this.

Someone before said "People would just have tanks and healers in the fight then if no enrage timers" WAR will probably be doing dmg close to DPS class now in 4.2. So Yes, that is where this is going 6 WAR and 2 Healers.

Why would you need DPS if WAR can do the job the same as DPS and take less dmg doing it.

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You must play with some horrible dps if you honestly believe that.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

You must play with some horrible dps if you honestly believe that.

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You might be surprised.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

You might be surprised.

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I fail to see how a comparison between an excellent warrior and an okay tier bard is a good example.

OP and everyone in this thread arguing for his point are everything wrong with this game's playerbase. I've never seen anything so backwards in my years playing this game. DPS Enrages in extreme and savage fights, especially this tiers', are never so difficult that cannot be done by even below average players. If you can't do them, then that's a problem with you, not the game. People like OP and everyone arguing his point actively make the game worse with their insistence that the game must cater to the lowest common denominator.

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Originally Posted by Leglibe

the lowest common denominator.

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Lowest Common Denominator

Notice how WAR is already above 2 DPS classes (pre 4.2). Can replace those classes with WAR right now. Who knows what the stats will be after 4.2.

Removing enrage timers would cripple gameplay.Also the only people who would benefit from it would be dps.It would mean they dont have to care about grinding gear.The damage tanks would have to endure would still remain the same and would encourage people to just play dps as they wouldnt have to grind out gear like tanks would.It would also make people not want to play healer as the longer the fight would go on the more stress they would end up in terms of keeping people alive and mana management.
Obvious top tier raiders would still want to get best dps possible but overall you'd kill tanking and healing in general gameplay.

If we get rid of enrage timers every content in the game can be done with 2 tanks 6 healers or 6 tanks 2 healers (or even 1 tank 7 healers / 1 healers 7 tanks or even 8 tanks)

To simplify. DPS role will be useless to clear any content and endgame raid would be a lot easier to get a first clear and I mean A LOT.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

Lowest Common Denominator

Notice how WAR is already above 2 DPS classes (pre 4.2). Can replace those classes with WAR right now. Who knows what the stats will be after 4.2.

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You should be comparing the max amongst the jobs. In which case, warrior is still 1000+ dps below the "weakest" dps.

I do not think that removing the enrage would be fun. The fun on Savage is that it is hard.

What I would welcome is some kind of "Training Mode". No chests, just the book or vice versa but with just one chest. But then a maybe +25% on the enrage timer.

This would give "more casual" statics the chance to have a step between normal (trash) and savage (hard). It would motivate to give the "medium" way a chance first and when all know the meachnics, you go on with hard mode.

The loot and the difficulty of the normal modes are a joke. while the savage modes can be too hard for employees with a limitation of time. a step inbetween would motivate, even if you need 3-4 times longer to equip than it does on savage :)

Even without max lvl loot it would make sense to play savage mechanics with a bigger timelimit to train. Instead of 370 they could but 365 gear inside with the same skin

Thinking about it, doing away with enrage timers would only work if the combat system and encounter mechanics were changed or made much more varied. As the game plays now, enrage timers are really the only way to show you cannot meet the demands of a fight by forcing a wipe. Other games that didn't depend on hard timers had other systems in place to prevent success such as diminishing returns on debuffs or CC, slowly dwindling resources like MP or items, etc. But you can argue those are just another form of ticking clock in the end...

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

If we get rid of enrage timers every content in the game can be done with 2 tanks 6 healers or 6 tanks 2 healers (or even 1 tank 7 healers / 1 healers 7 tanks or even 8 tanks)

To simplify. DPS role will be useless to clear any content and endgame raid would be a lot easier to get a first clear and I mean A LOT.

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That's crap. you can scrap enrage timers. add more dps checks. and thus find all tank or all healer parties will still fail.

look at ifrit ex. no enrage timer on that. but 6 tanks and 2 healers would never have smashed any of the nails down in time and that fight has what 3-4 sets of nails (thus 3-4 dps checks) i think been quite some time since i did it.

removing enrages does not mean the dps role would be useless... people need to stop exaggerating things so much

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Originally Posted by Dzian

That's crap. you can scrap enrage timers. add more dps checks. and thus find all tank or all healer parties will still fail.

look at ifrit ex. no enrage timer on that. but 6 tanks and 2 healers would never have smashed any of the nails down in time and that fight has what 3-4 sets of nails (thus 3-4 dps checks) i think been quite some time since i did it.

removing enrages does not mean the dps role would be useless... people need to stop exaggerating things so much

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The nails are an enrage timer itself.

Any dps check.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

You should be comparing the max amongst the jobs. In which case, warrior is still 1000+ dps below the "weakest" dps.

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Why would he be comparing max when he's comparing the lowest common denominator?

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

You should be comparing the max amongst the jobs. In which case, warrior is still 1000+ dps below the "weakest" dps.

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The point I'm making is that WAR CAN out dps and clear content, and they are BUFFING WAR. The DMG creep is real.

Its not suppose to be like that, WAR is suppose to be a tank. But people are so obsessed with DPS that classes are loosing their cardinal roles. I can tell you in FF11 no one was worried about how much dmg a PLD was dishing out. His job was to stay alive.

If your response is "Its easy to stay alive as tank with healer in ff14," you are part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I fail to see how a comparison between an excellent warrior and an okay tier bard is a good example.

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Do I need to requote the comment I was replying to for you? DPS don't need to be 'horrible' for a warrior to be snapping on their heels even now. It's a puzzling change to be sure. Anyhow, I'm drifting off topic so meh.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

If your response is "Its easy to stay alive as tank with healer in ff14," you are part of the problem.

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SE's design is the problem. That players figured it out isn't the fault of the players. If you think jobs that can do lots of DPS shouldn't because of ideological role purity, than maybe you should just play a game that is actually designed that way.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

The point I'm making is that WAR CAN out dps and clear content, and they are BUFFING WAR. The DMG creep is real.

Its not suppose to be like that, WAR is suppose to be a tank.

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Thats not a problem with dps checks in content and more an issue with things not hitting hard enough to make "struggling to stay alive" a thing. I can stay in tank stance all throughout Shinryu for example and we'll still clear if the dps is doing okay at worst. But why would I? Its wholly unnecessary and I could be contributing more by - guess what - dpsing. The whole encounter spent turtled up in tank stance is both boring and a waste.

Unfortunately, SE has opted to make encounters easier rather than harder, with the exception of ultimate. So, there will never be a time outside of progression where your tanks will be entirely focused on staying alive.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

That's crap. you can scrap enrage timers. add more dps checks. and thus find all tank or all healer parties will still fail.

look at ifrit ex. no enrage timer on that. but 6 tanks and 2 healers would never have smashed any of the nails down in time and that fight has what 3-4 sets of nails (thus 3-4 dps checks) i think been quite some time since i did it.

removing enrages does not mean the dps role would be useless... people need to stop exaggerating things so much

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Nails are a soft enrage, screw those up and party will wipe. Also I'm going to repeat myself once more, enrage timer is a dps check. So what you are suggesting is, remove the dps check to see if you can clear a fight, and replace it with dps checks to see if you can clear a fight (nails of Ifrit etc.). Basically taking off something, and then replacing with a same thing, is not innovation or smart, its what EA does with Fifa games every year.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Do I need to requote the comment I was replying to for you? DPS don't need to be 'horrible' for a warrior to be snapping on their heels even now. It's a puzzling change to be sure. Anyhow, I'm drifting off topic so meh.

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Thats a sign that the DPS need to take a look at their own performance, not that the tank needs to be nerfed. Additionally, theres no way for me to know about the other factors (chiefly gear, weapons, and meld disparity) that also could have lead to the WAR nipping at the BRDs heels.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

Lowest Common Denominator

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This is a perfect example of someone who doesn't understand how to use fflogs.

Do you understand what "minimum" percentile means? It's like the "who is AFK?" or "who spent the entire fight dead" parses.

You're looking at the worst possible parses and judging based on that that WAR is somehow stronger than actual DPS jobs. It simply doesn't work that way...if a DRG spends an entirety of a fight dead then yeah a WAR that stays alive is going to beat them in damage. Duh.

It just happens that there were more extremely bad minimum DRG and MCH parses than WAR. Not because WAR actually does more damage lol go look at ANY percentile besides minimum.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

So, there will never be a time outside of progression where your tanks will be entirely focused on staying alive.

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Everyone is a DPS then. That sounds boring. If everything is a DPS we should just play a FPS or MOBA or Fighter. Where is the challenge? Don't tell me DPS is a challenge, people just look up whatever the rotation is and do that. Memorizing a DPS rotation is not vary challenging.

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Originally Posted by Miste

This is a perfect example of someone who doesn't understand how to use fflogs.

Do you understand what "minimum" percentile means? It's like the "who is AFK?" or "who spent the entire fight dead" parses.

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That would be true if it was 1 session. The link is over the coarse of two weeks. Multiple runs weeds out "afk/dead" outliers.

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Originally Posted by ShanaMia

Why would he be comparing max when he's comparing the lowest common denominator?

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Probably because the lowest common denominator there is including people who hit a button once every 30 seconds or are flat out dead half the encounter?

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Originally Posted by Bobs

That would be true if it was 1 session. The link is over the coarse of two weeks. Multiple runs weeds out "afk/dead" outliers.

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It doesn't matter if it is over the course of 2 weeks. Minimum means it is only looking at the WORST ones in a 2 week span. There just happens to be way worse DRGs and MCH than there were WARs, but there is also a large disparity in the number of parses as well.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...aset=0&boss=46

Here. A DRG did 0 in Neo ExDeath.

So I guess DRG needs a buff since everyone beats them right? Even the healers beat DRG!

Like I said you can't judge jobs being stronger than others based on the WORST possible parses.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

That would be true if it was 1 session. The link is over the coarse of two weeks. Multiple runs weeds out "afk/dead" outliers.

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You just looked at all the brackets hoping that war was better than any dps in any of them, and tadaaah, it was in min percentiles. In literally ANY OTHER percentile, War is stronger than other tanks, but significantly weaker than any dps.