Can we get entry ilvl for levelling dungeons already?

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Originally Posted by TheAngelneer

"Tank must get ALL the mobs!"
"Obviously by ALL we mean only the 'dangerous ones'!"

k.

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This argument stemmed from someone saying that players needed to “get out of the mindset” that it was the tank’s job to hold aggro on every mob, when that is, in fact, their job. Even mobs where DPS can reliably tank it (such as your Shisui example), ideally the tank should still be the one to pick it up (and I usually see a lot of them try just that). Bringing up instances with mobs that don’t have aggro tables isn’t a decent argument to use against this. Bringing up now-cheeseable fights isn’t a decent argument to use against this.

Just because some instances (Cutter’s Cry) can be cheesed now (I’m fairly certain it wasn’t as cheesable back when it was relevant compared to today) doesn’t subtract from the concept that it is the tank’s job to pick up mobs and hold hate on them: be it boss adds or groups of dungeon mobs. Hall of Novice specifically teaches that, for anyone who has done the Tank HoN. You can’t ignore a part of the job just because sometimes you overgear some instances and can burn through the boss.


Regardless, this isn’t what this thread is about. To get back on topic—I am all for implementing minimum ilvls in leveling dungeons, and adjusting Leveling Roulette in such a way as to prevent people from removing gear (and thereby decreasing their ilvl) to get an easy roulette.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This argument stemmed from someone saying that players needed to “get out of the mindset” that it was the tank’s job to hold aggro on every mob, when that is, in fact, their job.

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Congratulations on going full circle! This is not a fact, the person that said that is absolutely correct, and for 3 reasons:

i) holding aggro on every mob is impossible;
ii) holding aggro on every mob is not always optimal;
iii) holding aggro on every mob certainly ain't always ideal.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Even mobs where DPS can reliably tank it (such as your Shisui example), ideally the tank should still be the one to pick it up (and I usually see a lot of them try just that).

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Trying to get that add is the opposite of ideal. The ideal situation is to keep your DPS uptime on the boss while the rest of the group swiftly disposes of the add, instead of dragging stuff around and potentially making it more difficult for the melee to engage the add.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Bringing up instances with mobs that don’t have aggro tables isn’t a decent argument to use against this.

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Mobs without aggro tables and mobs that aggro on a single target (like the adds on the first boss of Baelsar's Wall or Kugane Castle) are the quintessential proof that holding aggro on all mobs is indeed impossible, and thus not the tank's job.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Just because some instances (Cutter’s Cry) can be cheesed now (I’m fairly certain it wasn’t as cheesable back when it was relevant compared to today) doesn’t subtract from the concept that it is the tank’s job to pick up mobs and hold hate on them: be it boss adds or groups of dungeon mobs. Hall of Novice specifically teaches that, for anyone who has done the Tank HoN. You can’t ignore a part of the job just because sometimes you overgear some instances and can burn through the boss.

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Just a question, do you run around grabing all frog adds that spawn on Rabanastre when Mateus poisons the air of the arena? This is just another case where you shouldn't be tanking all the mobs.

Not only they are weak enough to be easilly downed by anyone, but it is also beneficial that the bubbles they spawn to be spread around so both melee and ranged can use them, while reducing the chances people pop them with the line AoEs.

You can spin this anyway you want, it will never be the job of the tanks to hold aggro of ALL the mobs. Most of them? Sure. All? No.

Looks like people really need to get out of this mindset.

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Originally Posted by TheAngelneer

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At this point it has nothing to do with a mindset and it seems like you're desperately making a point nobody cares about. Every single person who posted in reply to that post was well aware that you cannot tank "every" mob, but the poster in question was not talking about "every" mob in the literal sense, but instead referring to a majority. It implied that a tank can simply let mobs that are supposed to be tanked run loose, just because. The same way they mentioned that DPS don't exist only to optimize damage which...is exactly what they exist for. Stop trying to be coy and act as if people genuinely meant every mob in the game including ones without aggro tables and ones that die too quickly to matter.

Maybe cut it out with the pedantic BS and the condescending attitude too, yeah?

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Originally Posted by Oscura

At this point it has nothing to do with a mindset and it seems like you're desperately making a point nobody cares about. Every single person who posted in reply to that post was well aware that you cannot tank "every" mob, but the poster in question was not talking about "every" mob in the literal sense, but instead referring to a majority. It implied that a tank can simply let mobs that are supposed to be tanked run loose, just because. The same way they mentioned that DPS don't exist only to optimize damage which...is exactly what they exist for. Stop trying to be coy and act as if people genuinely meant every mob in the game including ones without aggro tables and ones that die too quickly to matter.

Maybe cut it out with the pedantic BS and the condescending attitude too, yeah?

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So...

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

You just can't be stuck on this whole idea that the tank's job is always to pick up aggro on every mob

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

Also yes it is a tank's job to have aggro on every mob. I cannot even believe this is up for debate. It's literally what the role was designed to do.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Uh... that is their whole job. If DPS aren't maximizing DPS and tanks are letting aggro fly all over the place, what's the point of either? What else are they supposed to even do?

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Originally Posted by Oscura

This is one of the most disappointing things I've ever read. It actually hurts reading this.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It IS the tank’s job to ALWAYS have hate on ALL mobs. That is literally what the job is designed to do: TANK THINGS.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This argument stemmed from someone saying that players needed to “get out of the mindset” that it was the tank’s job to hold aggro on every mob, when that is, in fact, their job. Even mobs where DPS can reliably tank it

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Your point again?

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Originally Posted by TheAngelneer

So...Your point again?

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

If you put me in a party and the tank has i120 gear in a Lv70 dungeon, I will approach it like a 3-player run with no tank and with one of the DPS (in this case the poorly-geared tank) getting hit all the time.

In fact, for some older bosses, it should theoretically be possible for two physical ranged DPS to duo it on synced mode by "bouncing" the boss (continuously alternating who takes aggro so the boss keeps running back and forth instead of actually attacking). Getting PUGs to pull off that kind of strategy is virtually impossible, though I have cleared a few of the more difficult all-DPS runs with PUGs by gaining a few extra seconds of uptime at the start of the fight via bouncing.

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Read the entire context of the post people are replying to next time. They were talking even in the context of tankless situations or with undergeared or flat out useless tanks who cannot hold hate at all.

Instead of being nitpicky, we could always get everyone to edit their post to just say "it is their job to always have hate on all mobs when necessary/possible." Just to satisfy you. For the record, by the way, stuff like shisui where the poor melee might lose uptime is not a valid excuse, because optimizing for DPS is not actually part of a tank's job description. A tank's job description is simply to hold hate whenever possible and make sure that DPS and healers take as little single target damage as possible. Arguing about DPS optimization is completely meaningless, because optimization is not the "bare minimum" or bare requirements of the job.

You are just coming off as incredibly whiny, and the argument you are making is for little more than the self satisfaction of telling people they're wrong. You are not trying to teach anyone something important, and you are simply shouting about how people had poor wording and therefore that is inexcusable.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

You are just coming off as incredibly whiny, and the argument you are making is for little more than the self satisfaction of telling people they're wrong. You are not trying to teach anyone something important, and you are simply shouting about how people had poor wording and therefore that is inexcusable.

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Yeah, try that one the next time you take a written exam, are asked to write an essay or any other kind of documentation, and see if it sticks.

How dare someone on the internet show that other people on the internet are wrong!

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Originally Posted by TheAngelneer

Yeah, try that one the next time you take a written exam, are asked to write an essay or any other kind of documentation, and see if it sticks.

How dare someone on the internet show that other people on the internet are wrong!

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I didn't know you were hired to grade our posts, or that we were being judged. Or that you even have the right to judge. That analogy is completely meaningless. Those people are paid to expect perfection, and people expect them to do so. No one wants some random person they've never met who is completely irrelevant breathing down their neck for mis-wording something. How awfully self-important of you.

It's also not that you told people on the internet they were wrong, it's just that you did it in a miraculously terrible way. Your condescending attitude and constant spite completely take away from whatever message you try to portray.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

I didn't know you were hired to grade our posts

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You are quite right, I should contact SE and ask why it is taking so long for them to mail me my gil.

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Originally Posted by TheAngelneer

Yeah, try that one the next time you take a written exam, are asked to write an essay or any other kind of documentation, and see if it sticks.

How dare someone on the internet show that other people on the internet are wrong!

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This is a discussion forum. Not a written exam.

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Originally Posted by TheAngelneer

Yeah, try that one the next time you take a written exam, are asked to write an essay or any other kind of documentation, and see if it sticks.

How dare someone on the internet show that other people on the internet are wrong!

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Quick, everyone go through that person's posts and make sure there are no grammatical, logical, or contextual errors in any of them.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This is a discussion forum. Not a written exam.

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Guess what is important on a discussion?

Clearly conveying one's point through proper wording.

And if it really was a case of it just editing the posts to "is their job to always have hate on all mobs when necessary/possible." as Oscura suggested, then this wouldn't have been a discussion in this first place, since people would be effectively agreeing with the post that started it ("You just can't be stuck on this whole idea that the tank's job is always to pick up aggro on every mob").

Both statements are equivalent, if people are clearly in opposition to one they can't be advocating for the other.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Quick, everyone go through that person's posts and make sure there are no grammatical, logical, or contextual errors in any of them.

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By all means, be my guest. If there are errors resulting in logical inconsistencies I'll welcome the feedback.

A tank should try to get aggro on every mob, unless they are aware beforehand that there is no aggro table.

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Originally Posted by TheAngelneer

And if it really was a case of it just editing the posts to "is their job to always have hate on all mobs when necessary/possible." as Oscura suggested, then this wouldn't have been a discussion in this first place, since people would be effectively agreeing with the post that started it ("You just can't be stuck on this whole idea that the tank's job is always to pick up aggro on every mob").

Both statements are equivalent, if people are clearly in opposition to one they can't be advocating for the other.

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Except this is wrong. As I posted before, and will post again. You keep ignoring the context of the original post that people replied to. The poster very specifically mentioned instances where a tank would either not tank mobs or simply not even exist. It even mentions that DPS do not exist solely to optimize DPS. It implies that, ultimately, a tank can let any mob run wild, since certain classes, like ranged ones, can bounce aggro or kite, as they do "not exist only to optimize dps." Even in the context of something like Shisui, as was argued before, you don't even kite or "bounce" that mob. You are simply inferring that the original poster was also referring to specific situations where bosses, adds or mobs don't have aggro tables, can't be targeted, or will do off-target attacks, which is not the case at all. It is not present in the post period. You cannot infer things based on your own convenience.

Sure, if you decide to take the original post out of context, the two phrases are agreeing. However, as you've said, "clearly conveying one's point through proper wording," which requires context. In the context of the post, it changes the entire meaning of their sentence saying that tanks don't have to tank every mob, as they were just speaking about mobs running wild. Mobs that can, and should be tanked. Their poor wording is not the fault of anyone else, so maybe you should criticize them?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

A tank should try to get aggro on every mob, unless they are aware beforehand that there is no aggro table.

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I disagree, there are situations that trying to get aggro on every mob is more trouble than it's worth. Like the frogs when fighting Mateus or the adds summoned by Ser Yuhelmeric, just to name a few

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Originally Posted by Oscura

post

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Yes, the poster does mention those situations.

The particular phrase that started the discussion is presented at the end of their post, on a separate paragraph, which means it is a new set of logical constructions that, in context, provide both:

a) an explanation, as they see it, on why people find the things they mentioned to be so odd (people don't think outside the box);

b) clarification on what "thinking outside the box" is, according to them

It follows that, according to their logic:

i) If you get rid of those fixed ideas/mindsets, you can then think outside the box;
ii) If you think outside the box you are able to understand how those challenges are possible;
iii) If you know that they are possible then you can understand why someone might be enticed to try it;

It does not follow from that statement that people should let ads and bosses go wild on everything, but it does convey the idea that not every single tankable enemy in the game should be picked up by the tanks. This somehow made some people upset (proving the point made on the original post) and I have presented cases in which it is indeed advantageous to the whole party if tanks do not grab aggro on certain mobs, and also that the concept of every mob should be tanked is impossible to sustain since it isn't even possible to be done. You can hold it as part of your own set of "ideals" as a tank, but it is neither achievable or optimal.

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Originally Posted by TheAngelneer

I disagree, there are situations that trying to get aggro on every mob is more trouble than it's worth.

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There are always exceptions; pointing out specific scenarios doesn't make the original statement, as a whole, false. When someone tells a sprout "do your best to avoid AoEs" do you decide to say "well ACTUALLY there are these specific AoEs in these specific duties for these specific mechanics that you want to get hit by, so you are wrong."? While there are a few examples of AoEs that you should stand in, that doesn't mean that we should have to list every exception to the original statement to avoid being called out.


Here's my mob tanking in dungeons done as a priority system, with examples of things to not require tanking being in the parenthesis:

1. Does the mob (BLM/WHM/RNG/THF/BRD Moogles in Thornmarch HM) use an aggro table which allows me to be their main target, either for damage or mechanics? If yes then go to #2.
2. Does the mob (Force Fields from Ala Mhigo) actually do any damage or have mechanics that require me to be top aggro? If yes, then go to #3.
3. Does the mob (The tiny ice sprites after the 2nd boss of Snowcloak) die too fast and deal too little damage to require establishing aggro? If not, go to #4.
4. Does the mob (the tiny Fausts that give stacks in A4N) have any mechanics where me tanking it would be a disadvantage? If not, then you should probably tank it.

That's about as broad of a ruleset that I can think of that covers a majority of all content that isn't Extreme, Savage, or Ultimate.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

There are always exceptions to rules; pointing out specific scenarios doesn't make the original statement, as a whole, false. Do you see someone who tells a sprout "do your best to avoid AoEs" and you decide to say "well ACTUALLY there are these specific AoEs in these specific duties for these specific mechanics that you want to get hit by, so you are wrong." While there are examples of AoEs that would be good to stand in, that doesn't mean that we should have to list every exception to the original statement to avoid being called out.

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This is not equivalent to what has been discussed. There is a big difference between saying someone should do their best to keep mobs on them and that they should have all aggroable mobs on them at all times.

It would be accurate if they said "You just can't be stuck on this whole idea that you should dodge every single AoE" and then people went "Also yes it is your job to dodge every single AoE. I cannot even believe this is up for debate." or "This is one of the most disappointing things I've ever read. It actually hurts reading this."

Can you see the difference? The first statement is factually correct, and those types of response are demonstrably wrong and should be addressed.

Other than that, the priority system you posted works pretty well.

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Originally Posted by TheAngelneer

Yes, the poster does mention those situations.

The particular phrase that started the discussion is presented at the end of their post, on a separate paragraph, which means it is a new set of logical constructions that, in context, provide both:

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Are we honestly going to ignore that the post in question could've simply put it on a separate paragraph incorrectly? It's not as if every single person is as picky about their wording and grammar as you are. At this point your interpretation is simply just that, your interpretation. It goes against the grain with what others read, which was someone at first speaking of situations where the usual law of "tanks must tank mobs period" is not met, followed by the slippery slope of "you don't have to tank everything," which is an incredibly broad term. Regardless of a separation of paragraphs, you cannot seriously act as if the two statements are completely unrelated. You cannot seriously argue that the person meant solely specific situations where it is advantageous not to tank something, cannot be tanked, or dies too quickly to be worth tanking. Their post never asserted, hinted to, or even implied any of that. Even in any post following, it was not brought up. You were the one person who brought this up, and the only thing that ultimately irked you was that people said you "should tank everything." You're not stupid, you knew that people meant you should aim to tank as much as possible when deemed necessary, but they simply said it as broad as possible because the original post implied that one does not have to tank even when it is necessary. That is even specifically why I said the post hurt to read. Tanks should tank everything unless they can't, and should avoid tanking things once they can work on their optimization when they know they don't have to, like low HP targets. I do not need a new player reading that post and saying, "oh, it's not that bad if I let a mob go when I'm doing a pull against trash and just let it hit the DPS the entire time then." The same way like with the AoE example, that I would not want someone reading that and saying "ah screw it so I can just stand in this whenever I please."

The fact of the matter is that you read the original post one way and that other people read it another way. You are nitpicking based in interpretation.

Edit: Also, it is not my "ideal," I regularly try to optimize as often as I can. I agree with you that some mobs just aren't meant to be tanked. I was simply addressing that the point you are making is not present in the original post at all aside from you reading the implication from a single sentence and nothing more.

To avoid feeding the troll some more, entry ilvls for leveling dungeons absolutely need to be a thing. More than that, there should be much stricter ilvl restrictions imposed on peoples' weapons, across all roulettes/dungeons/trials, so we don't end up with, say, a DRG in Dun Scaith with an ilvl 210 weapon, or a SAM in godsdamned Sohr Khai with an Ironworks katana. Or an idiotic DRK trying to tank Lakshmi EX with an ilvl 260 relic.

This would also have prevented me from landing in Castrum Abania as WHM when all I had was an ilvl 270 Shire weapon. Additionally, it needs to be easier to farm weapons from dungeons. I ran Bardam's Mettle for 2-3 hours, farmed every single piece of healer gear available in that dungeon, and never once got the weapon.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

I would not want someone reading that and saying

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Then the problem here is you reading something and trying to guess what people are supposedly trying to say, as opposed to what they are saying, and projecting that behavior to other people.

If someone categorically states "yes it is your job to do thing X. I cannot even believe this is up for debate." then that is exactly what I understand out of it, and not that they actually mean "you should try to do X but not really.

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Originally Posted by TheAngelneer

Then the problem here is you reading something and trying to guess what people are supposedly trying to say, as opposed to what they are saying, and projecting that behavior to other people.

If someone categorically states "yes it is your job to do thing X. I cannot even believe this is up for debate." then that is exactly what I understand out of it, and not that they actually mean "you should try to do X but not really.

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I did not guess what they were trying to say. Reading the entire post and its context, it's very clear to me what they are saying. I am not singling out that one sentence, but reading the entire post as a whole. It keeps sounding as if you are singling that sentence out, or simply addressing it as if that sentence is only being singled out and nothing more. Sure, if I read that sentence by itself, and singled itself out, I'd be guessing, but I'm not. The only reason I singled it out in my original post was because I could not be bothered specifically nitpicking their entire post about how I felt. It was their opinion so I had no reason to prove them "wrong," but I could not deny that it hurt to read in the entire context of the post. Just because you disagree with how I read it, doesn't mean I am "guessing."

I will concede about the "cannot believe this is up to debate" thing though.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

{SNIP} You can't complete many SB dungeons without a full party.

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You can complete most but it'll be painful. Just stock up rezzes for them busters. It's the worst in Abania and Bardam I reckon.
Healed almost the whole run of Ala Mhigo (starting from after the 1st boss) as a RDM, 'twas fun but the run took almost half an hour.
I agree with Uzuki on oddball comps, that's some nice fresh air in dungeons. People tend to be happy about those no-tank or no-healer runs in the end from my experience.

Regarding the original topic - some restrictions are due but I'm afraid they'd be pretty tight.
Barely managed to assemble il255 on my tank (alt role, alt character) before SB, 'twas pretty painful and bit costly and would I aim for say 270 I'd literally have to grind for like 2 more days just to ameliorate someone's DF experience.
With that gear I could do usual pulls (~2 packs at a time) but couldn't drop grit any much in Shisui. I'm okay with the idea of asking for like 250-260 for some of the first dungeons in SB but pretty please DO NOT turn it into "at least have ilvl corresponding to all loot from a dungeon 2 tiers lower than the latest unlocked". Even for tanks/healers lowish gear can provide acceptable performance.
Clarification: there are people who would be next-to-oneshotted even being synced so the failproof tactic doesn't really apply here. "You don't pay my sub" is a really bad mindset but people should be allowed to rely on their abilities and understanding of the game compensating for less gear. What fun is it if performance=gear?

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Originally Posted by KingMeteo

Elitism, because they want to speed run their roulettes.

This doesn't happen every run.

The leveling roulettes are supposed to be there to help low levels get thru their dungeons. Teach and be patient or leave.
Flame away.

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23 likes... The truth is simple, it’s brief, and it burns. They’re called leveling dungeons for a reason.

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Originally Posted by Lodinn

What fun is it if performance=gear?

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But that's how the game literally works, regardless of how much fun it is. Tanks are the most obvious example, as if they're behind on gear it'll be very obvious because 1. their HP will be uncomfortably close to the well geared/synced down dps in the party, already a big red flag, and 2. they will be unable to hold hate to save their lives, staying in tank stance and spamming agro rotations until the cows come home and still losing agro. Healers will be unable to keep up healing even with their strongest heals and dps will barely tickle the mobs. Wiping constantly because your tank is still in 260 gear or under when you're in Castrum Abania is also not the epitome of enjoyment

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Originally Posted by K3KW4RCHILD

23 likes... The truth is simple, it’s brief, and it burns. They’re called leveling dungeons for a reason.

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Its not the truth its just that all the people have no respect for the players in this game.
It doesn't hurt to get proper gear for the dungeon you go in but if you don't have any respect for others you enjoy ruining their game experience.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you are max level on a specific role (tanks, healers, melee DPS, ranged DPS, casters), then why would you be carrying leveling gear around for them? Get rid of it

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This is what I do already. When I level my RDM to 70, I intend to hold onto the 60 (i260) gear for casters as well as the 50 (i110). But when I level a summoner. I'm not going to have the 53-57 nor the 63-67 gear. Same thing with a Tank or Healer role. Who the hell carries, even on their retainers, full sets of 53, 55, and 57 gear or their 60-70 counterparts. NONE of you do that. And I'm not going to specific queue a dungeon for 5-7 runs just because of a 'chance' of getting a higher ilevel dungeon.

No, I'm going to do what most do, go straight to 70 and use the gear waiting. I'm fine with the roulette not putting me in dungeons my gear cannot do. If a dungeon has a ilevel requirement, it simply needs to be Enforced in roulettes. Try it. Try queuing for those dungeons directly without having the proper gear. It won't let you. Roulette need to be the same.

Unless you all can give me a good reason why a tank with ilevel 110 should be allowed in a 55+ dungeon. I don't think you can. I don't think they should. Whether its me or someone else.

Min IL for all dungeons would actually make the playerbase better. You do realize there are people who assume that just because they can enter a dungeon it must mean their gear is ok. That's why they do it, out of ignorance, they don't consider how important it is to upgrade their gear from 3.X to 4.X content and it's something you can't teach once you're in an instance. You can't go "Oh Joe that gear isn't going to work let me get you new gear" because you're locked into the content and either have to try to complete it with the huge handicap or sadly remove the person from the party.

If SE did introduce Min IL to all lving dungeon content it would at least help to ease the issue in which players may be failing the dungeon not because of their skill but because of their gear.

Don't you think it's discouraging for a healer to have their tank die and blame themselves first because they assume they are the ones doing a bad job when the reality ends up being the Tanks gear has lowered their HP by 3-5k?

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Who the hell carries, even on their retainers, full sets of 53, 55, and 57 gear or their 60-70 counterparts. NONE of you do that.

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Speak for yourself.

When I am leveling a class, I upgrade every five levels. You can get NQ gear dirt cheap off vendors, and occasionally get it even cheaper off the market board. Sometimes you can even get HQ pieces cheaper then NQ.

You don't have to have great gear for Leveling roulette. You don't need good gear, just passable. And that can be done for pennies. If you want to ignore gear while leveling, run Palace of the Dead and stop hamstringing others.

I'm going to assert that it is the job of the tank to make sure that non-tanks are not taking unnecessary damage due to having aggro. This entails not only having and keeping aggro, but maintaining their own survival through mitigation of incoming damage via cooldowns.

I would also assert that surviving incoming damage is much easier--as is maintaining aggro--when they are properly geared for a dungeon.

Let's look at Ala Mhigo for instance: it has an iLv synch. There's one major reason for this: it is unfair to pit a fresh i289 tank against a full i340 dps with full melds. They simply will not be able to maintain their enmity against that. Just as it is unfair to pit an i110 tank against dps in a Lv55+ dungeon (saw that example used earlier).

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Who the hell carries, even on their retainers, full sets of 53, 55, and 57 gear or their 60-70 counterparts. NONE of you do that. And I'm not going to specific queue a dungeon for 5-7 runs just because of a 'chance' of getting a higher ilevel dungeon.

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Uh....*raises hand*?

At SB launch all my jobs were 60 and 50 RDM and 50 SAM.

I leveled SAM and RDM to 60 with PotD and they obtained my level 60 gear that my casters and MNK had.

Once I started leveling jobs in SB from 60-70 I collected gear and I kept it. I leveled AST and I kept all the SB leveling gear for when I am going to level the next healer and so on and for every other role as well.

So right now I haven't finished some of my jobs to 70 and any gear I got that is shared I kept from when I leveled the other jobs. I would also preemptively collect gear for the next jobs I was leveling. For example if I was leveling RDM and my next job was going to be SAM and I hadn't leveled any melee jobs yet I would greed on striking gear as I leveled through the dungeons.

I tend to do things in an efficient manner so it is just how I play. Like I leveled all the casters quite close together in order to remove the caster gear since I no longer have any casters to level, same with the ranged physical DPS MCH and BRD, and all the healer jobs.

This efficiency helps me do my role better for any groups I get. As a tank I am less stressful to heal for the healer and I do more damage, DPS I do more damage and makes the run quicker, healer I heal for more and do more damage to make the run smoother.

It helps me and it helps the people I play with so I figure it is win-win and with the SB space increase I didn't have a problem holding onto the gear from Bardam's Mettle to Abania. (I didn't need shisui gear since I raid so almost all my jobs were 270 or at least 269...but I even still collected and held onto shisui gear for glamour anyway so i have partial sets)


As for topic I've actually made a topic about the DF requirements before so my opinion is out there, simply put I agree we need item level restrictions on every DF duty. Ending up in Sirensong Sea with a tank wearing a mixture of i140 to i150 gear and an i110 weapon who dies in 2-3 hits and can't hold hate so the party ends up having to wait 5 mins to kick them and wait for a new tank is just plain ridiculous even if such a thing is a rare occurrence...it just shouldn't be able to occur at all. That is a true story by the way :/

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Originally Posted by K3KW4RCHILD

23 likes... The truth is simple, it’s brief, and it burns. They’re called leveling dungeons for a reason.

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I am entitled to show up to leveling dungeons naked with a level 1 weapon to leech some xp. If you demand better gear, YOU'RE the asshole, you don't pay my sub!

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

I am entitled to show up to leveling dungeons naked with a level 1 weapon to leech some xp. If you demand better gear, YOU'RE the asshole, you don't pay my sub!

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I once encountered a paladin who called himself the naked paladin and who proceeded to remove a piece of gear after each pull. Have to say it was an interesting run.

Some players just play and don't care if they are a detriment to other players, they just want a carry. I actually knew people like this IRL and no matter how I try to explain, even go out of my way to help them get better gear to them it's "too hard" or it "takes forever". We had a NIN that padded his ilevel with fending accs in HW at one point he eventually stopped playing since he can't play for more than 15 mins a day... can't get any casual than that.

Yet I get to hear them whine about wiping in a duty in the mainstory, some people are just beyond hope.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Its not the truth its just that all the people have no respect for the players in this game.
It doesn't hurt to get proper gear for the dungeon you go in but if you don't have any respect for others you enjoy ruining their game experience.

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Ironically, those screaming "elitism" at the top of their lunges often think themselves entitled to clear content and that veterans have to help.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

This is what I do already. When I level my RDM to 70, I intend to hold onto the 60 (i260) gear for casters as well as the 50 (i110). But when I level a summoner. I'm not going to have the 53-57 nor the 63-67 gear. Same thing with a Tank or Healer role. Who the hell carries, even on their retainers, full sets of 53, 55, and 57 gear or their 60-70 counterparts. NONE of you do that. And I'm not going to specific queue a dungeon for 5-7 runs just because of a 'chance' of getting a higher ilevel dungeon.

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Please speak for yourself. When I was leveling my jobs to 60 back in HW, I did keep pieces of leveling gear stored in retainers, especially for my tank and healer jobs, for when I decided to level a job. They may not have been full sets, but I did keep pieces so as to not be a hinderance to parties I was thrown in for my roulettes. Right now, I have pieces of leveling gear stored for my jobs that aren’t level 70 yet (though I could use some more tank gear past level 65).

For DPS, entering Doma Castle in i270 isn’t as big of a deal compared to a tank or healer entering Doma Castle in i270, but it’s still mildly disrespectful to go into a dungeon in subpar gear. Because it’s only going to cause a hinderance for the rest of the party, and that’s disrespectful. And it probably wouldn’t take as many runs as you think, since leveling dungeons guarantee you a drop upon completion, and the coffers throughout also give several options in terms of gear.

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No, I'm going to do what most do, go straight to 70 and use the gear waiting. I'm fine with the roulette not putting me in dungeons my gear cannot do. If a dungeon has a ilevel requirement, it simply needs to be Enforced in roulettes. Try it. Try queuing for those dungeons directly without having the proper gear. It won't let you. Roulette need to be the same.

Unless you all can give me a good reason why a tank with ilevel 110 should be allowed in a 55+ dungeon. I don't think you can. I don't think they should. Whether its me or someone else.

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Have you missed the entire point of this thread? This thread is about putting in, and enforcing, minimum ilvl requirements for leveling dungeons, which currently do not have any. Right now, any level 61 job can queue in for Sirensong in gear from ARR or HW, and it will let them—because there is no ilvl requirement for the leveling dungeons. The only dungeons that have ilvl requirements are the 50/60/70 dungeons. I have seen tanks and healers in Sirensong with pieces of, not only Ironworks, but Makai PvP gear, Brand New Rings (that’s always fun), and Unaugmented Lore gear (the i230 stuff). I’ve even seen some in i200 Unaugmented AF gear. And they get in because there is no minimum ilvl requirement for leveling dungeons. Hence, this thread’s existence.

The majority of this thread is advocating against letting i110 tanks/healers/DPS into level 55+ dungeons. Because they aren’t equipped to handle it, so they shouldn’t be allowed in it—out of respect for the people they would get grouped with, they shouldn’t even attempt to queue into something like The Vault, Bardam’s Mettle, or Doma Castle in gear that is subpar for their level (Unaugmented Ironworks, Makai gear, Unaugmented Shire, or even Augmented Shire is pushing it in Doma Castle if you’re a tank/healer).

Maybe, because it’s early, I’m misunderstanding your post, but I feel like you missed the main point of this thread...

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Snip.

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You miss interrupted that post.
Hyo was saying if you have all classes of a specific role maxed out (I.E RDM, SMN and BLM are all 70), THEN you can get rid of all the leveling gear for that role. I did that to a point that I had full sets of gear for healers/tanks/etc at levels 65 and 67 with some random 69 pieces here and there since you blow thru that level pretty easily but still upgrades are upgrades and there's no valid argument to purposefully gimp yourself with inferior gear.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

...there's no valid argument to purposefully gimp yourself with inferior gear.

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Actually, people can intentionally wear inferior gear to challenge themselves if they'd like. Though admittedly there are few opportunities to do this, and it's actually not my cuppa' tea.

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

Actually, people can intentionally wear inferior gear to challenge themselves if they'd like. Though admittedly there are few opportunities to do this, and it's actually not my cuppa' tea.

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An ilvl restriction wouldn't stop this though - all you need is the gear to get in, then you swap out.

I personally think it's an awful thing to do without a preformed party but it's certainly an option for those doing what you suggest.

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

Actually, people can intentionally wear inferior gear to challenge themselves if they'd like. Though admittedly there are few opportunities to do this, and it's actually not my cuppa' tea.

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I feel like that's an awful thing to subject randoms to. I can understand wanting to challenge one's self, but probably best to leave that to premade groups and not DF. I don't find it enjoyable getting tanks in Bardam's in Makai gear that decide to do big pulls, can't hold aggro, and die in 3 hits....

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Have you missed the entire point of this thread?

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Nope. Sure haven't.

I've been asking for restrictions so when leveling another role/class I don't end up in dungeons I ought have no business in the first place within the leveling roulette.

But I'm being told I need to keep a retainer's worth of leveling gear on me at all times to queue for that. That makes no sense. I'm not suggesting to do Expert in 220 gear here. We're talking Leveling Roulette in 110/260 gear. That should be sufficient for that.