The Raid community as we know it

Literally who

I get the feeling a big part of the people in this post have either not watched the whole SOTR episode, or watched it and just heard what they wanted to. In the episode itself, he tells the story behind the Unchained thingy, and it goes like this: He's MTing for DF, and there's this Warrior OT'ing in Defiance (OT'ing in tank stance) while he's stance dancing to maximize DPS. At one point the OT gets aggro and dies (I believe, can't remember every detail of it), and calls out on Xeno for losing aggro, and Xeno's reply is "Why are you OT'ing in Defiance?" (Notice how he doesn't go aggressive on this random person) for which the Warrior in question replies: "Unchained, bro!". That's the origin of the meme.
What's important in this little segment of the show: He doesn't go "aggressive" (Can't really consider the way he speaks aggressive when literally everyone in my family drops F bombs all the time in casual situations) on random guys unless they ignore advices, and insist on repeating mistakes that were already pointed out. The way he acts with his static group (All friends btw) shouldn't matter to any of us, even if he does stream the game as his streams are for a public that don't mind/like his persona.

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Originally Posted by Kyt

If you truly believe everything you just wrote, you must be an incredibly one dimensional teacher. There are different types of raid groups for this very reason. Those comfortable, positive environment raid groups you talk about? Those are like that because no one is fucking up and wiping every single pull OR because no one in the group cares about actually killing the boss. You being uncomfortable when a raid leader calls out someone who screwed up doesn't mean that it's the case for everyone. Being comfortable does not equal for me what it does for you. If I'm in a raid where the raid leader is constantly telling everyone "haha i screwed that up a lot when I started too, no worries, we'll get there on the 1500th wipe no problem!" That makes me uncomfortable. Why should something that makes me uncomfortable be less important than something that makes you uncomfortable, just because what you find uncomfortable is aggressive?

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Resorting to insults now? Classy.

Why do you think raid groups tend to be revolving doors? People get tired of the bullying mentality of raid groups and choose to move on. The raid community will not grow positively until positive atmospheres are reinforced. And yes, you can have mature, respectful, positive atmospheres with bleeding edge progression. I've been in them. I've lead them. Sadly, they are not common, and thus potential raiders are driven away from raiding.

edit: Also, to be a little bit snippy, I'll take my years of education and on-the-job training in classrooms over your, what experience exactly?

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Why do you think raid groups tend to be revolving doors? People get tired of the bullying mentality of raid groups and choose to move on. The raid community will not grow positively until positive atmospheres are ?

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To reply to you, about the community wont grow positive atmpsphere for raiding wont be growing....
You see, I actually think there's been more grow on bad players these days than it used to be. In fact since we grow on new players almost everyday, makes the numbers even higher. Why? Because nobody really ''educates'' them. There are serval reasons so. Apperently telling a guy how to do fire over ice every cast or second cast is an elitist attitude:? Check been said many times on this forum by people who claim there is multiply ways to play a class...
Reason 2: ''it's just a game''. I agree it is, but the mentality doesn't work anymore when you can't beat lets say content. For thoe who want to raid or do ex primals, their goal is kill the thing, not being in a sightseing and wipe in and out all day.
Reason 3: People sponsor bad play. Yes there are certainly people who does and I've seen it and others seen it. When they get called out for it, giving false info to others, they stick to their ''it's just a game, I have fun why does it matter'' Well............ There are other people in the group who wants fun too or actually beat the boss, nobody want's to waste time because 1 turd decide to be greedy about it. Instead of giving false info, telling people to ''slack'' isn't a good way. What about actually helping people with their rotations, help them understand mechanics and then they can get the clear without being carried.

That's where the main issue occur... they wont bother because too many people tell them it's fine to not do so.

Hardcore raiding is by definition kind of cut throat and exclusive. You want to intentionally drive people who aren't good enough away from the groups so you can actually clear the way you want to. Hardcore raiding also doesn't just mean doing savage, it's about either clearing every fight as quickly as possible, or having the fastest kill times you can muster. Just doing savage isn't "Raiding at the highest level." You can clear every piece of content in this game relatively fast on a pretty casual schedule, nothing is stopping you. This means there's a set of stepping stones you can take to becoming "Hardcore" if you want to, but until then you need to accept that you need to improve first.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

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Firstly, taking a position of authority on a topic you're debating is literally the first thing they teach you not to do in debate, so you should cool it with your little "snippy" edit, cause it makes absolutely zero sense. How many shitty super old teachers are there? Oh yeah, tons. Successful raid groups are not typically revolving doors. For over an entire year I kept 39 other members completely static in WoW vanilla with very few absences. I've also been in carebear statics that have members leave every week. Potential raiders have every opportunity to create their own groups that coincide with their own style of raiding. They also have all the opportunity in the world to search for an external group. If you are in a raid group and you don't like how it's lead you can leave. It's as simple as that.

The best thing about this game is that you can take everything about raiding and just... throw it away. Imperious raid leaders? Incompetent officers? Loot drama? DKP? Who cares! You don't need it! There's only 8 of you! The fights are like a boss at a time!

If people are still, somehow, acting like amazing assholes and tearing each other apart when you can PICK WHAT BOSS YOU FIGHT and don't have to clear trash to get there... god, what's wrong with you then? What excuse to you possibly have to be acerbic?

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Why do you think raid groups tend to be revolving doors? People get tired of the bullying mentality of raid groups and choose to move on. The raid community will not grow positively until positive atmospheres are reinforced. And yes, you can have mature, respectful, positive atmospheres with bleeding edge progression. I've been in them. I've lead them. Sadly, they are not common, and thus potential raiders are driven away from raiding.

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To be fair, while this approach may work on average, you have to consider the group dynamic. All players and their respective attitudes are not equal. Some people not only prefer but actively improve in an openly blunt environment. What you may call "toxic," they call "honesty." As for the frequency in turn around. It's disingenuous to attribute bullying as the sole factor. Being blunt myself, many people simply lack the skills to clear Savage but don't like hearing it. This is why the term "elitism" has lost all meaning. You are more likely to be accused of said elitism for merely offering advice than for sticking your nose up at those "filthy casuals." And that petty attitude isn't reserved for the hardcore mindset either. I know someone who intentionally refuses to heal tanks wearing 270 Slaying accessories regardless of their capabilities. Why? They hate the supposed "meta" so much, they have unintentionally become just as petty as the so called elitists.

Something worth keeping in mind is players who openly insult one another may still have an overall positive atmosphere. They simply go around it a different way. To use Xeno as an example, you'll have half as many people talking about how chill and helpful he's been while others hate him. Ask his opinion about his static members though and he'll gush over all of them. Basically, it works for him and people with similar mindsets.

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Originally Posted by Kyt

Firstly, taking a position of authority on a topic you're debating is literally the first thing they teach you not to do in debate, so you should cool it with your little "snippy" edit, cause it makes absolutely zero sense. How many shitty super old teachers are there? Oh yeah, tons. Successful raid groups are not typically revolving doors. For over an entire year I kept 39 other members completely static in WoW vanilla with very few absences. I've also been in carebear statics that have members leave every week. Potential raiders have every opportunity to create their own groups that coincide with their own style of raiding. They also have all the opportunity in the world to search for an external group. If you are in a raid group and you don't like how it's lead you can leave. It's as simple as that.

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It makes complete sense. You are debating with the way people learn with someone's whose job is to teach people. It is incredibly valid. It's like going up to a theoretical physicist (while you yourself have no formal physics training) and you deny the existence of black holes for reasons. You really wouldn't do this--and if you did, you'd only look the fool. As for as bad teachers? Sure, there's bad teachers. There's bad everything in their profession. But is it because a lack of knowledge? Probably not; they know how to teach, but are too lazy / can't be arsed to do it properly, and are thus bad. But, they still have all that formal training and knowledge.

As to your other point, I have fully acknowledged that I am not speaking to every single case. There are--what I will call toxic raid groups--that do not have attendance problems. But there are many that do, and there are enough of us complaining about this culture that it is more than just one or two bad apples.

Now what is raiding's biggest problem? Lack of participation. We already know Savage completion rates in Heavensward were really low, and I don't think anyone is expecting much to change in Stormblood. Now normal is queuable, great, that'll boost up those numbers. But if you took out normal, and raiding is simply "savage," well, there aren't enough in that community to prop it up. The math just doesn't work out. I'm not saying the lack of positive, respectful atmospheres is the sole reason for it, but I believe it is a strong, contributing reason. At the end of the day, when I'm in my leisure time, the last thing I want is to hear some blowhard yelling because he doesn't know how to teach and encourage good play. I'm not alone in this, either.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

To be fair, while this approach may work on average, you have to consider the group dynamic. All players and their respective attitudes are not equal. Some people not only prefer but actively improve in an openly blunt environment. What you may call "toxic," they call "honesty." As for the frequency in turn around. It's disingenuous to attribute bullying as the sole factor. Being blunt myself, many people simply lack the skills to clear Savage but don't like hearing it. This is why the term "elitism" has lost all meaning. You are more likely to be accused of said elitism for merely offering advice than for sticking your nose up at those "filthy casuals." And that petty attitude isn't reserved for the hardcore mindset either. I know someone who intentionally refuses to heal tanks wearing 270 Slaying accessories regardless of their capabilities. Why? They hate the supposed "meta" so much, they have unintentionally become just as petty as the so called elitists.

Something worth keeping in mind is players who openly insult one another may still have an overall positive atmosphere. They simply go around it a different way. To use Xeno as an example, you'll have half as many people talking about how chill and helpful he's been while others hate him. Ask his opinion about his static members though and he'll gush over all of them. Basically, it works for him and people with similar mindsets.

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First, there is nothing wrong with being blunt. I can be very blunt myself. It's all the way you go about it. You can respectfully ask, "Why did you not soak at blah blah?" Blunt, straight to the point, and the player will feel very comfortable asking. Versus, "Who is the idiot who keeps missing the soak and wasting people's time?" Even without tone, you can easily tell this creates a very uncomfortable environment that is not conducive to learning and encouraging good play.

I completely disagree with insults can create a positive atmosphere. The second you throw out an insult--whether it is in jest or not--you instantly create an uncomfortable and hostile environment. There is absolutely no reason to be insulting to another player. If you can't say it in a warm, respectful way, don't queue up the mic.

As a general note: these are my personal feelings as to why I don't raid competitively anymore. It's not a broad indictment on raiding as a whole, but it's also why I believe raiding participation numbers are down. I simply believe that many players do not want to be in aggressive, hostile environments that unfortunately run rampant in Savage. Sure, you can find groups that aren't like that, but experience tells me there are many like that.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

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If a raid leader is actually saying something like "who is the idiot who keeps missing the soak", that raid leader needs to be stripped of whatever officer position he has because it is INCREDIBLY easy to tell exactly who is fucking up what. That's a BAD raid leader, not a high level toxic raid leader. It is NOT bad for me to say "hey xxx, you screwed up moving out of the puddles 3 times in a row now and killed other people each time as a result, you really need to pick it up or I will be replacing you in the next few attempts". It's also NOT bad for a group of 8 close friends to say things like "god you're such a fucking retard xxx" which is exactly what Xeno and his group do. If you join a group like that and you're the odd man out who didn't realize that that's how the group is run, that's definitely on you and not them.

This thread is just making me think of this old meme... Which is not a good thing...
https://pics.me.me/things-people-fin...t-21721372.png

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Originally Posted by Eli85

edit: Also, to be a little bit snippy, I'll take my years of education and on-the-job training in classrooms over your, what experience exactly?

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Here's where the target of this post brings up some anti-intellectual "School of Hard Knocks" bull.

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Originally Posted by Kyt

If a raid leader is actually saying something like "who is the idiot who keeps missing the soak", that raid leader needs to be stripped of whatever officer position he has because it is INCREDIBLY easy to tell exactly who is fucking up what. That's a BAD raid leader, not a high level toxic raid leader. It is NOT bad for me to say "hey xxx, you screwed up moving out of the puddles 3 times in a row now and killed other people each time as a result, you really need to pick it up or I will be replacing you in the next few attempts". It's also NOT bad for a group of 8 close friends to say things like "god you're such a fucking retard xxx" which is exactly what Xeno and his group do. If you join a group like that and you're the odd man out who didn't realize thatR that's how the group is run, that's definitely on you and not them.

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Re: the soak. Pay less attention to the 'dur the raid leader is dumb' and take more into account the tone, the language, the broad stroking that the comment implies. Change it to, if you want, to "X why is it so hard for you to do a simple mechanic like soak?!" Still aggressive, hostile, and in my opinion, unacceptable.

There is nothing wrong with what I've bolded, provided it is delivered in a mature, respectful tone. However, your last quote, that is completely unacceptable in any situation, and is, in my opinion, why a lot of players who are more than capable of raiding, choose not to. The reality is, far more groups engage in that unacceptable behaviour. I mean, would you really call someone a bleeping bleep in a public space? On a bus? In a coffee shop? And not have people turn around wondering what is wrong with you? If someone ever says that to me in real life, I bid them adieu. There is no place in our society for those kinds of comments.

Why are you guys still arguing against how Xeno does things for his group? Are you part of his group? No. Are you in a group that can even compete with his? 99.99% of you, no. Leave the dude to do his own thing that doesn't affect you at all and that you're likely to never group with him.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

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If that's how people talk to each other, then that's how they talk to each other. It's not your right to dictate how people talk to each other. Some people actually just talk like that. My last quote is not unacceptable in a static where that is the preferred type of communication, and I'll stop you now before you say "that type of communication is not preferred by anyone in the world", because it quite obviously is. Me? no, I don't lead my raids like that. But it obviously works for people who are like that example being xeno and his group who are all close friends. It's not your right to tell them that how they do things is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Reality would like a word with you. South Park is absurdly popular, as is Deadpool and a whole host of "filthy unwatchable" entertainment.

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South Park is mean-spirited Political Satire. See also Charlie Hebdo. The problem is that it's viewers are often not smart enough to see the satire and think it's just punching a target because the target is high profile.

Comedians will tell you that you always punch up, those in power, politicians, religious figures, CEO's, basically anyone who uses their power in abusive ways, because if they raise their hand to punch back, it shows you that the person with power will readily abuse it and should be stripped of it.

Deadpool on the other hand is a special kind of narrative that still has to hold back or get an "adults only" rating and thus can't even be marketed.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I would love to see where an individual has ever been kicked for not having specific achievements or minions. Please. >.>

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Seems like every time we have a thread about Raiders bringing toxic behavior outside their static safespace we inevitably have people looking at the lodestone to try and prove the other person hasn't cleared something. Raiders clearly do look at the parser sites as a reason to kick people, so let's not pretend it's not happening.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Except sometimes individuals need to be pointed out when they make a mistake. Broadly saying "do mechanics" when it's just one person messing up isn't going to help, because that person may not even think its them (or they could, and just not care, but that's an entirely different situation). If you have someone who is falling severely behind in DPS, if you are knowledgable in the job they play, you should always directly extend advice to them on telling them how they can improve; otherwise, it's possible they will never learn.

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Yet, who's fault is it? Finger pointing often comes with the price of "You not doing so hot yourself"

If you have a healer who has the arrows pointing at them to stack, and the healer stops moving to let the DPS catch up, and half the DPS don't even move, who's at fault? If we keep failing the mechanic because half the party won't move, even after being asked twice, then that has to become a vote abandon because nothing is going to let that party even get past that phase.

You can offer all the advice in the world to other players, but if people are just playing healer or tank to get a quick queue and don't actually care about the mechanics, then it creates a miserable experience for everyone.

Being a bully about it just makes people want to get rid of you, even if you are right. I'm sure we've all had the party where once we kick the rude person blaming others, now suddenly everything moves smoothly.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

South Park is mean-spirited Political Satire. See also Charlie Hebdo. The problem is that it's viewers are often not smart enough to see the satire and think it's just punching a target because the target is high profile.

Comedians will tell you that you always punch up, those in power, politicians, religious figures, CEO's, basically anyone who uses their power in abusive ways, because if they raise their hand to punch back, it shows you that the person with power will readily abuse it and should be stripped of it.

Deadpool on the other hand is a special kind of narrative that still has to hold back or get an "adults only" rating and thus can't even be marketed.

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It doesn't really matter. Profanity isn't exactly a turn off for most people. The entire idea of swear words in particular is ridiculous, as each of them has unoffensive synonyms for both connotation and denotation, which means the only distinction in practice between offensive and unoffensive is the permutation of letters you use.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Here's where the target of this post brings up some anti-intellectual "School of Hard Knocks" bull.

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TBF I'd liken high level raiding to being more like a competitive team than a classroom and those environments are pretty different.

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Originally Posted by Pori_Dessu

This thread is just making me think of this old meme... Which is not a good thing...
https://pics.me.me/things-people-fin...t-21721372.png

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This post just sums up this thread

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Originally Posted by Kyt

If that's how people talk to each other, then that's how they talk to each other. It's not your right to dictate how people talk to each other. Some people actually just talk like that. My last quote is not unacceptable in a static where that is the preferred type of communication, and I'll stop you now before you say "that type of communication is not preferred by anyone in the world", because it quite obviously is. Me? no, I don't lead my raids like that. But it obviously works for people who are like that example being xeno and his group who are all close friends. It's not your right to tell them that how they do things is wrong.

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Rules of polite, civilized society demands that it is unacceptable. Though when people log on a game, get that veil of anonymity, they start to behave poorly. Some people dig that, fine, that's them--but the rest of us, it makes us uncomfortable, and drives us away from otherwise enjoyable content. I miss high level raiding, I really do, but the toxic environment, the hostility, the aggression, those aren't worth it to me, and I really don't think I'm the only one.

Raiding thrives on participation. Raiding will die out when participation levels drop too much. So why the raiding community is OK with ostracizing potential players is really baffling.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you have a healer who has the arrows pointing at them to stack, and the healer stops moving to let the DPS catch up, and half the DPS don't even move, who's at fault? If we keep failing the mechanic because half the party won't move, even after being asked twice, then that has to become a vote abandon because nothing is going to let that party even get past that phase.

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The healer.

If you have a stack mechanic and it's completely safe to run behind the boss, you do so. Expecting the melee DPS to disengage the boss and lose several GCDs worth of damage because you can't be bothered to run into range of them isn't their fault. Now if there's an aoe puddle or you're locked in place. That is a different scenario.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Seems like every time we have a thread about Raiders bringing toxic behavior outside their static safespace we inevitably have people looking at the lodestone to try and prove the other person hasn't cleared something. Raiders clearly do look at the parser sites as a reason to kick people, so let's not pretend it's not happening.

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The last time I saw anything remotely close to what you're describing was when someone was trying to tell other people that they were the best player with regards to their job, had the best melding plan for their gear and it was obvious it was the best because they were constantly out-DPSing other party members (even though, if I recall, they didn't use or have access to ACT), and was bragging about having cleared a12s multiple times, yet people could find no evidence to support their claims. If someone is going to brag about how they're the best at something or have the best melds or are constantly out-DPSing everyone else because they've cleared X content X amount of times, I expect evidence to back up said claims.

Same thing for when I am farming content and suddenly we can't queue in Duty Complete because there's someone with a bonus trying to sneak in. I expect people to provide evidence that they have cleared (primal totem, savage floor pages, weapons, gear, etc.).

However, that bragging was occurring here on this forum, so tell me how that is even remotely close to you saying people kick them out of parties in-game? Hyperbole doesn't help your arguments.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The healer.

If you have a stack mechanic and it's completely safe to run behind the boss, you do so. Expecting the melee DPS to disengage the boss and lose several GCDs worth of damage because you can't be bothered to run into range of them isn't their fault. Now if there's an aoe puddle or you're locked in place. That is a different scenario.

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Going to echo Bourne for the answer to your question. If the healer has a stack mechanic and can freely move into melee range where, more than likely, the majority of the party is going to be, then they should do so. It's a DPS loss to have melee and the OT disengage from the boss to stack with a ranged player because they can't be bothered to move in, especially if it's safe to do so.

Now, if the healer was stunned and marked for stack, then it would be up to the party to adjust accordingly, and they would be at fault.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Seems like every time we have a thread about Raiders bringing toxic behavior outside their static safespace we inevitably have people looking at the lodestone to try and prove the other person hasn't cleared something. Raiders clearly do look at the parser sites as a reason to kick people, so let's not pretend it's not happening.

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In general when people bring up logs it's for a reason. Basically what HyoMinPark said.

For example today someone joined a certain Discord revolved around class discussion, FF discussion and s***posting with no class role assigned to himself (which takes just a few seconds if he just read the rules) just advertising his stream, so naturally people were upset with him.

And he said this.

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i never needed to talk about my class because i know about the ones i like to play

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That's when someone posted a link to his logs which did not reflect favorably on him.

I honestly think you have a skewed perception of the raiding community, because in my opinion, the true elite are chill people. I'd call my friend one of them except he's not in a static; he plays mostly solo but he's definitely near the top of the playerbase when it comes to skill level. People have chimed in here where Xeno has been helpful in PF and whatnot. The way he acts on stream is probably because he's with his friends and as a stream he needs to entertain people and some people like that sort of persona.

BTW I just tried listening to that episode of the podcast and stopped before that guy gave me actual cancer.
Is he actually a 1% world class raider anyway? he looked like he's just a real full-of-himself obnoxious streamer with a bad attitude.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

BTW I just tried listening to that episode of the podcast and stopped before that guy gave me actual cancer.
Is he actually a 1% world class raider anyway? he looked like he's just a real full-of-himself obnoxious streamer with a bad attitude.

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How does he have a bad attitude? He plays with his friends and so on. In fact he helps a lot of random groups with clears as well and has done a lot for the community for those who tanks as well.
I think he's a good guy. Is he blunt? Sure but being blunt is sometimes good, it's in fact very good for people to know how bad they do or not. If I see someone screw up and I know who it is, I will call them out. I wont brush it off and pretend it's fine, especially if they screw up been over 5 times a row. It's fine to fail but when you do it ''most'' or ''all the time''.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

...become a vote abandon because nothing is going to let that party even get past that phase.

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The "raid community" doesn't do raids with randos until they have it on farm and the loot lockout is removed.

Like, is it really so scary to get Xeno or another one of his ilk in faceroll content like Omega normal? Chances are, they aren't even going to say anything to you. They might talk shit about you on stream or wordlessly kick you, but that is probably the extent of it...and that seems REALLY mild and nowhere near as traumatic as the people in this thread are making it out to be.

Basically, if you aren't doing extreme primals or savage Omega, your fears are pretty much irrational and unfounded. Very few people give any shits about your sub-par performance in an expert roulette, including these oh-so-scary "elitists."

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

BTW I just tried listening to that episode of the podcast and stopped before that guy gave me actual cancer.
Is he actually a 1% world class raider anyway? he looked like he's just a real full-of-himself obnoxious streamer with a bad attitude.

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An accurate question to answer to your question would be, "are all casuals who post on a forum about a group of people they dislike really the sort to turn a life-altering illness into a memetic rhetoric?".

If you're going to knee-jerk with a "everyone knows it's a joke" then perhaps you've found your answer about Xeno.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QsDzan8oEg&t=2259s he was on this pod cast as well. and he did mention this forum. Just going to leave this here

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

An accurate question to answer to your question would be, "are all casuals who post on a forum about a group of people they dislike really the sort to turn a life-altering illness into a memetic rhetoric?".

If you're going to knee-jerk with a "everyone knows it's a joke" then perhaps you've found your answer about Xeno.

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Precisely.

What is more crass, talking crap with your friends that you raid with (i.e. play a video game with) or making casual quips that make light of a horrible life altering and often life ending disease?

As someone that spent their last holiday season in a hospice care facility watching a family member waste away and die from cancer, I'm inclined to say the latter.

Cancer is horrible and is no joking matter.