The arrogance of some people

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

I mean if you want a real answer from me, my answer is:

if it's a dungeon run or a DF run (aka not a raid or PF with a set goal etc).... if no one's dead and nothing is chewing my face I couldn't care LESS if the tank was DPS stance or if the healer stood there and took a nap. Dungeon run takes an hour? Fine, if we actually finish. I don't care.

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It can care for who dont have much time for play the game. If I decided to do all Roulettes + some Craft (for example) but I have only 2-3 hours to play... and I lose 1 hour inside a single Roulette.. well its sad

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

if it's a dungeon run or a DF run (aka not a raid or PF with a set goal etc).... if no one's dead and nothing is chewing my face I couldn't care LESS if the tank was DPS stance or if the healer stood there and took a nap. Dungeon run takes an hour? Fine, if we actually finish. I don't care.

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I'd like mine to finish in less than a half hour, tbh. However, that's really all up to how terrible the DPS is. If the DPS is terrible. It's going to go slow even if you have a tank in a DPS stance and a healer in Cleric Stance.

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Originally Posted by Naruke

It can care for who dont have much time for play the game. If I decided to do all Roulettes + some Craft (for example) but I have only 2-3 hours to play... and I lose 1 hour inside a single Roulette.. well its sad

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That is sad...that's too bad. I've had that problem before, too, where I only have a couple hours to play but these DPS just aren't pulling through and I -really- wished people would get their act together...
but guess what?
I'm not the only one playing. It's a group game, with a group of people who aren't just me. The game isn't "ME ME ME". If I wanted to completely control a situation I would play some more Animal Crossing or a Tales game or something.
Either way it's no reason to yell at a random person you aren't going to meet again.

If you want to guarantee you get everything done in as little time as possible, run with your friends.

Or maybe people could just let others play and enjoy the game their way? If someone is messing up by not healing when they are a healer, not dpsing quite well if they're a dps, or not holding aggro as a tank very well then speak up and give them a hand. If you feel like they could be healing as a tank/dpsing as a healer/healing as a dps(?) then keep that to your own groups of people or yourself if you are in the duty finder. People play games for fun, not to be complained at that whatever they're doing isn't enough. If you keep doing that to random people then they'll just unsub and congrats, you've got a dying game on your hands.

Just be civil or try to be.

Camon... if your healer only wants to heal, thats fine cause they are a healer... pull more mobs then, give them a reason to only heal. Its a dungeon ffs...

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Originally Posted by Ramzal

Or maybe people could just let others play and enjoy the game their way?

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This has no place in group content. People are NOT entitled to screw over others just because they would prefer to play as terribly as possible.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

This has no place in group content. People are NOT entitled to screw over others just because they would prefer to play as terribly as possible.

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That's the point, a healer not dpsing is not screwing anyone. They're just not doing their maximum, like most regular players.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Sorry but that isn't what DF is about. You got is backwards. Get your friends together if you want to get Chit done. The world isn't blessed to have people like you in every duty you know. You're so special.

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This. The game isn't really geared to teach people a full and proper rotation even by level 60. Also, you can be new to the game or job or level 60 and still meet the requirements to start doing EX. If I enter a DF, when I do, I am there for the party, whatever their skill or style, and I expect it to take as long as it takes. I wish there was more patience in the game, but play with FC or friends if you have to have it a certain way.

I just want to know, in all honesty from the people defending Healers not using DPS in their downtime, would you still defend a tank who back tanked while using flash, not DPSing, or only using a single hate move even. Maybe a Melee standing in an AoE that would otherwise force him to move out of range, so he can max out the dps, knowing healers are only healing and would be able to cure through it. Would you defend a Bard who only wanted to play the support side and purely sang songs without shooting or the other way around?

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Originally Posted by AeraLure

This. The game isn't really geared to teach people a full and proper rotation even by level 60. Also, you can be new to the game or job or level 60 and still meet the requirements to start doing EX. If I enter a DF, when I do, I am there for the party, whatever their skill or style, and I expect it to take as long as it takes. I wish there was more patience in the game, but play with FC or friends if you have to have it a certain way.

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Oh I agree and if you listen to the banter on this forum you're sure to get the idea that DF was a terrible place to enter. I DF everyday as well as play with FC friends whenever I can which I enjoy quite a bit. The point is that for the most part duties go just fine. I find it an exception to run into a bad group and when that happens oddly enough we manage to survive.

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Originally Posted by SlyTribal

Would you defend a Bard who only wanted to play the support side and purely sang songs without shooting or the other way around?

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Oh all I do is play songs.... was I supposed to dps too? No one told me, I thought that was the healers job. Oh thank you.

ABC.

Always be casting.

No damage to heal? DPS. Damage that needs healing? Heal.

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Originally Posted by SlyTribal

I just want to know, in all honesty from the people defending Healers not using DPS in their downtime, would you still defend a tank who back tanked while using flash, not DPSing, or only using a single hate move even. Maybe a Melee standing in an AoE that would otherwise force him to move out of range, so he can max out the dps, knowing healers are only healing and would be able to cure through it. Would you defend a Bard who only wanted to play the support side and purely sang songs without shooting or the other way around?

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Yes if the tank made sure I wasn't being killed. Who cares?
Also melee DPS already do that so pffffffffft
Also good to know that Bard is now an official support role, always thought my red harp meant DPS but sweet, I'll just sing and stand there from now on.

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Originally Posted by AeraLure

Yeah. Healers are expected to dps while healing, especially the case if someone in the party has full Eso gear because they will be used to a healer doing that in end game content. It's just the norm.

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Correction: it's the norm at end-game, not in normal content. Time for you to adjust your expectations. Please do not continue to spread the end-game meta to normal content.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Correction: it's the norm at end-game, not in normal content. Time for you to adjust your expectations. Please do not continue to spread the end-game meta to normal content.

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Heaven forbid people try to get other people to improve.

If you are just healing and not DPSing in this game at all as a healer you must stand around an awful lot and not do anything.

I get that people may be new to healing, I get that people may not be as skilled at healing as some. But to stand around and not do anything just because "Herp a derp Im a healer, I only heal and not DPS" is the definition of being lazy.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Excuse me it is not being lazy. I took healer to heal not DPS. If I wanted to DPS I would play a DPS class. If I keep everyone alive then I am doing my job.

Do you also expect the DPS to throw heals too? If no then why do you expect healers to DPS?

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Healers come with some attack spells built into the base class, and so I would say it's more a matter of just utilizing your skills as a healer. If a person isn't comfortable maintaining the party and DPSing, I do understand, but to completely go the "Nope! NO DPS FROM ME EVER" route is a bit silly.

In case this helps any discussion, no, I don't really raid. Void ark is the highest for me. I will always DPS where I can, otherwise I personally do get bored and feel lazy.

Do i expect other healers to do the same? Not really, but it does help to speed things up.

The only time I've been annoyed by someone not DPSing as a healer was in a Sastasha NM run. Instead of doing anything productive, he just let his fairy heal and was dancing/emoting almost the entire time. That is just a slap in the face.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

But to stand around and not do anything just because "Herp a derp Im a healer, I only heal and not DPS" is the definition of being lazy.

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What if they were overhealing instead?

They'd press just as many buttons as if they were DPSing, so you can't call them lazy anymore. Would you prefer that?

I think the word you seek is "inefficient", not "lazy".

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Originally Posted by Zojha

What if they were overhealing instead?

They'd press just as many buttons as if they were DPSing, so you can't call them lazy anymore. Would you prefer that?

I think the word you seek is "inefficient", not "lazy".

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In the example I gave I said they were standing around doing nothing, If they were overhealing then yes they would be inefficent instead of lazy.

The amount of Healers I see that heal a tank then literally jump around the mobs is extremely high in expert roulette.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

What if they were overhealing instead?

They'd press just as many buttons as if they were DPSing, so you can't call them lazy anymore. Would you prefer that?

I think the word you seek is "inefficient", not "lazy".

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I hate overhealing so much..I'd rather they just stand there and cast Cure every ten seconds then healing someone at 99% health.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Correction: it's the norm at end-game, not in normal content. Time for you to adjust your expectations. Please do not continue to spread the end-game meta to normal content.

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Pretty terrible attitude to have. Why MUST df groups be stuck in mediocrity and not get better?

I don't even think a healer needs to "full time" DPS. Just pop into Cleric's Stance and toss your DoTs on, then pop back out and continue curing. You've already sped up the fight by a few seconds that way, and the DoTs will do their job while you focus on curing.

If I'm in a cure-flurry situation on SCH where I won't be able to stance dance, I'll at least run in and drop a Miasma II on the mobs.

"Healers need to DPS" doesn't mean a healer is expected to stay in Cleric's full time and cast Stone II/III until the mob is dead. It means that if no one in the party is in desperate need of a cure, and you're picking your nose or checking your phone and only tossing a cure every 10 seconds, you could probably be doing more.

Even on AST I find the time to drop Combust/Combust II in between shuffling my cards and tossing cures.

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Originally Posted by SlyTribal

I just want to know, in all honesty from the people defending Healers not using DPS in their downtime, would you still defend a tank who back tanked while using flash, not DPSing, or only using a single hate move even.

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So long as they are holding hate successfully, I don't give a damn. But can you technically hold hate effectively like that?'

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Originally Posted by SlyTribal

Maybe a Melee standing in an AoE that would otherwise force him to move out of range, so he can max out the dps, knowing healers are only healing and would be able to cure through it.

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As someone else said, melee do this anyway.

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Originally Posted by SlyTribal

Would you defend a Bard who only wanted to play the support side and purely sang songs without shooting or the other way around?

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They wouldn't be doing their job if they aren't DPSing. So no, I wouldn't support this.

In any case, these are all false analogies. A healer's job is to keep everyone alive. They could not contribute a single bit of DPS, and still be achieving what they are intended and designed to do.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Excuse me it is not being lazy. I took healer to heal not DPS. If I wanted to DPS I would play a DPS class. If I keep everyone alive then I am doing my job.

Do you also expect the DPS to throw heals too? If no then why do you expect healers to DPS?

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Because DPS don't actually have any worthy healing skills and because there's rarely a time in the game where you can do too much DPS, however there are plenty of moments where you can do too much healing and have plenty of time to DPS.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

Actually yes, DPS are expected to use their self-heal abilities whenever possible. SMNs are expected to toss Eye for and Eye on the tank when it's up, and Raise in the event that the healer is too busy. In an absolute disaster case, a BLM probably has Physick cross classed.

I once healed the party's way through the 2nd boss of Qarn as a paladin, after the healer died. (I mean, it's not like that boss can actually be tanked.)

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We lost a healer once in Haukke manor because they were impatient and didn't want a full clear and me as BLM ended up healing the first boss just to keep some progress going while we waited for a healer.

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

In any case, these are all false analogies. A healer's job is to keep everyone alive. They could not contribute a single bit of DPS, and still be achieving what they are intended and designed to do.

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I'm sorry but...what? Um... x.x
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...Imconfused.gif

People switch from healing to dps and back all the time without a single death happening, if that is not the case they are simply doing it wrong..

Also melee should /not/ intentionally stand in an aoe just because they know the healers will save them, that would be inefficient and take the healers eyes off of the tank which is selfish and possibly suicidal, i have literally never seen it happen before.

The amount of self-entitlement in this thread is absolutely mindboggling...

It's not so much arrogance rather than just simply trying to make things easier for everyone involved. Generally, there isn't that much need for full time healing unless the tank is doing a huge pull and not using their CDs. When that happens, even full time healing might not keep them up, and it'd be the tank's fault overall.

As a WHM, I give myself plenty of time to DPS by using Divine Seal + throwing Regen and Aslyum on the tank, using Eye for an Eye as well if it's an especially big pull. I might throw a Cure II to deal with the initial auto-attacks before going Holy -> Aero III -> Holy -> Assize, then either keep DPSing or switch back to heal depending on how the tank's doing. There are some situations where trying to kill the mobs ASAP would help more than simply healing, as running out of MP while too many mobs remain standing would basically spell disaster for the entire group.

Assize especially shouldn't be underestimated. No other class has such a high damaging huge AoE nuke. Using it during an add phase in a boss fight basically results in all the adds having halved HP, if not outright killed if you crit. It gives the DPS way more time to go back on wailing on the boss.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Oh great, here we go again.

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https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f69d90e05c.jpg

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Correction: it's the norm at end-game, not in normal content. Time for you to adjust your expectations. Please do not continue to spread the end-game meta to normal content.

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No, not really. It probably should not be the norm, but it nonetheless is. Most parties expect it now in all content. Just the way it is. Doesn't matter whether you have to or not to actually complete the content. You can, as a healer, only heal, but be expected to get some grief occasionally. And IME runs do go smoother and faster that way, which is nice, and why most people like it. If you aren't adept at it or don't wish to do it, my advice is to say so at the start of the run of running with strangers. This way there can be agreement on expectations right up front - or - new party formation, as needed, rather than doing this 1/3 of the way in.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Heaven forbid people try to get other people to improve.

If you are just healing and not DPSing in this game at all as a healer you must stand around an awful lot and not do anything.

I get that people may be new to healing, I get that people may not be as skilled at healing as some. But to stand around and not do anything just because "Herp a derp Im a healer, I only heal and not DPS" is the definition of being lazy.

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You and others replying to me need to respond to what I said, not what you imagine I said, or want others to think I said.

I said nothing about not improving.I said nothing to suggest players should stand around and do nothing between heals if they feel they have the time and MP. I simply said that end-game meta has no place in regular content, and it truly doesn't. Healer DPS isn't going to take minutes off a run, it's just not that significant, so why stress so much about it?

Both you an Elazu apparently think that saying the end-game meta doesn't belong in regular content means I'm saying that mediocre play is OK, or that it's alright to do the bare minimum or worse. That's not what I am saying at all.

The end-game meta has no place in regular content.

However, in a team game, you have to work as a team. That means doing as much as you feel comfortable and able to do. For a healer, of course that means tossing out DoTs, Stone, or even Holy - IF there is time and you have MP to burn. However, team members should not be making demands of other players that they are uncomfortable with. It's not up to you to judge for another player whether they could, or should,have done more.

Unless someone is deliberately disrupting the run by deliberately playing sub-par, then you can't argue that they are intentionally wasting your time or hurting the group. All the arguments about wasting your time rely on a one way view of who's time or enjoyment matters. Both players have equal value in this regard. When you argue that another player must do something they are not comfortable with, you are placing your needs well above theirs.

As for this suggestion that this view means encouraging mediocrity, that's your twist on it, but it's not in fact true. Healers saying they do not want to play DPS, and if they did they'd have rolled as DPS doesn't mean that they will not throw out DoTs or that they will be mediocre; it simply means that they don't like to be told what to do. Guess what, nor do you, nor does anyone else. So thet's all stop trying to impose the end-game meta on people, and instead encourage better performance in a positive manner by offering praise and thanks when a player goes beyond the basics of their role. Believe it or not, positive reinforcement is far more effective than criticism.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Excuse me it is not being lazy. I took healer to heal not DPS. If I wanted to DPS I would play a DPS class. If I keep everyone alive then I am doing my job.

Do you also expect the DPS to throw heals too? If no then why do you expect healers to DPS?

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Also there is a balance to be considered here. If the dps are doing such a poor job, as a healer, your mana will suffer if you try to dps and heal too much. When things are taking such a long time to kill, the healing output is increased by the healer to compenstae for the additional damage the tank is taking through things not dying fast enough. In a situation like OP is talking about, its not really about should the healer dps or not but CAN the healer dps or not in this situation. It sound like healer dps wouldnt significantly speed up the mobs death enough due to bad dps outputting bad Dps.

However, it also depends on how much the tank was pulling. Small pulls taking forever to kill, the healer should dps. Large pulls taking forever to kill, its going to cause problems on healers mana (except SCH possible).

Thats said, as a healer i do as much dps as possible. I get bored if i dont.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

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I kinda agree with most of what you have said, but...

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Healer DPS isn't going to take minutes off a run

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It will. A good healer can put 800~1k DPS in every trash pack. (Assuming a half-decent tank) and 400~700 DPS in a boss fight. If the tank is also doing good DPS its like adding another super competent DPS to the party.

The lesson to be learned here is that everyone should carry a full range of potions, ethers, and medicines to use regardless of their role, what other jobs may be present, or the context of what is currently happening at any given time.


P.S. To those that keep bringing up the damage spells that healers (more specifically Whm) gets. Putting the whole DPS argument aside, try completing a quest battle or any content using only the damage from your auto attack and see how far you get.

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Originally Posted by Eothas

I kinda agree with most of what you have said, but...



It will. A good healer can put 800~1k DPS in every trash pack. (Assuming a half-decent tank) and 400~700 DPS in a boss fight. If the tank is also doing good DPS its like adding another super competent DPS to the party.

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Same, and yes, it does take minutes off a fight. It's something any healer looking to be a great healer should aspire to and general content, or at least EX, is the place to do it before entering raid content. A decent healer can pull those numbers and that absolutely is noticeable. If you're not comfortable doing it, new to being a healer, or aren't going to do it for whatever reason, and you are level 60, I still think it's pretty expected of you and if you won't be doing it, tell your group straight up before you start.

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

Also there is a balance to be considered here. If the dps are doing such a poor job, as a healer, your mana will suffer if you try to dps and heal too much. When things are taking such a long time to kill, the healing output is increased by the healer to compenstae for the additional damage the tank is taking through things not dying fast enough.

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This is a problem I have faced as PLD many times, when sub-par dps means adds take too long to die, and I take far more damage than I would with better DPS, and for a much longer time. That puts pressure on the healer's MP, as does the feequency with which the DPS players stand in stupid. Unless the 'nice to have' extra DPS that a healer can safely provide, offsets the lack of real DPS, it's not going to alter that situation. The healer wil OOM because of the duration of the fight and the MP spent on supplementting the DPS.

My problem with all of this expectation on healers is that, it shifts responsibility for DPS to healers who already have enough responsibility to handle. In end-game situations when there are tight DPS checks that either require truly optimal DPS play, or supplemental DPS from healers and stance dancing tanks, then yes the team will expect healer DPS, but that is a known requirement of that specific content, in that situation everyone is equally responsible for success. In normal, mainstream content though, dealing damage is the primary responsibility of the DPS, tanks incidentally will deal damage to generate hate, healer DPS is still relatively optional. If healer DPS makes a significant difference, it's because the damage dealers are doing poorly.

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Originally Posted by Eothas

I kinda agree with most of what you have said, but...



It will. A good healer can put 800~1k DPS in every trash pack. (Assuming a half-decent tank) and 400~700 DPS in a boss fight. If the tank is also doing good DPS its like adding another super competent DPS to the party.

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I understand that. I'm thinking in the context of Duty Finder, and PUGs,where the assumption is that all players are of average skill. In that situation, the healing requirement is relatively higher than in a skilled and well geared group running the same content. That reduces the scope that a healer has to safely DPS. In that situation, I don'tthink that the healers DPS will appreciably shorten the run. Actually, depending on the party composition, gearing and level of content, I'd say that coordinated damage dealing is more effective at shortening a run than healer dps.

I agree that if we're talking about a very good player playing healer with a decent group, there will be much more scope for that healer to maximize their damage dealing. So yes, in that circumstance a run could be appreciably shorter.

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Originally Posted by Eothas

It's interesting that some players always wants to do the minimum required, nothing more and are afraid of trying something in a GAME. Why not try something different, something fun, something that you have to pay attention and feel engaged, something that may have a little chance of failure, but if you pull it off it feels rewarding? IMO most players that say that they don't like to DPS, are in fact just insecure to stance dance.

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Not everyone finds DPS fun. I took healer so I could you know heal. If I wanted to DPS I will play a DPS class. I play to have fun and healing only is fun to me, I don't want to try and dance back and forth, I am there is heal and it is relaxing and fun to me to just heal.

I don't even have the DPS skills on my hot bar and have not used them in ages.

If someone doesn't like then they can kick me and take their chances with the next healer.

Except that the general discussion is based almost entirely around some healers not wanting to dps vs. people who want them to, i have heard far too much about dps not doing their jobs and honestly i don't understand that either

As mentioned in my earlier posts a lot of things are situational and people should be prepared to adapt what they are doing to the flow of each battle. If mobs are taking forever to die keeping your mp up to keep the tank alive comes to the forefront of the strategy, if it is because a dps is refusing or unable to play their part and they will not or can not do better to the point where it weighs the party down it is time to consider a new dps, just as a tank who is failing through attitude or a healer who is doing so may eventually need replaced.

It is one thing to do no more than you are comfortable with, it is another to refuse to push yourself out of your comfort zone in a party situation to the extent that it becomes a detriment to your party.

It can be scary, but once you do it you may find it fun and it does in fact speed things up greatly when everyone is playing their class to its absolute potential.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Excuse me it is not being lazy. I took healer to heal not DPS. If I wanted to DPS I would play a DPS class. If I keep everyone alive then I am doing my job.

Do you also expect the DPS to throw heals too? If no then why do you expect healers to DPS?

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Eh, if you have time to DPS, then it's only logical to do so. If you're just standing there doing nothing, and you will/do(happens to every healer), then you're actually slowing things down.

Let me say it again so you don't blow your chimney: If you have time to DPS. Then it's only logical to do so.

If you truly want to ONLY heal then fine. Frankly, I don't see it as lazy, but my point is you can do much more in those periods where no healing is needed/regen(or job version of this) is taking care of things.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

stuff

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I most likely got the wrong impression on your post then, sorry if what I took it as was not what you meant.

I wouldn't really say Im demanding anything, if it came across that way sorry. As I said in my post I get that people can be new and not great as a healer. Im fully ok with people taking their time and learning the basics first, those aren't really the healers I have problems with. We were all there at a stage after all , weren't we?

The healers I have a problem with are those geared in 210 and will sit around doing nothing or even jumping around while the party takes no damage.If you have time to jump around and run about you have the time to dot enemies. If people are happy to sit around doing nothing for 30-60 seconds at a time fine, it is their choice, I can't force people to play in a certain way. It also is my choice to consider those people lazy.