Astro in savage

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Greetings,

Thanks for the feedback!

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Hi, Grekumah. I just wanted to make sure you saw this thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ring-A1-Savage.

It mirrors most of my thoughts on AST, as someone who also went into A1 savage. While capable of clearing it, AST simply lacks synergy with SCH and WHM. And AST's (RNG) cards do not make up for it's low DPS...

I realize that the devs do not take healer DPS into consideration, but the playerbase (that raids) does.

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Originally Posted by Parawill

In all honesty Richard, as much as I would love to be healing on par with White Mage or Scholar (referring to that "stance" idea that you cant turn off), I really want them to focus on the aspect of Astrology, buffing and divination. Where White Mages bring raw power house heals, Scholars bring in Shields & heals (though weaker). Astrologians bring raw heals like White Mages, but do not have the potency of White Mages which gives room to add utility to their heals.

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I would prefer if they could pull this off as well, but I'm just not sure how that's going to happen.

AST is a healer, and as such it needs to keep the group alive first and foremost, especially since ASTs are queuing for DF and cannot afford to be "half a healer" in those circumstances.

The trouble is that, in order for AST to overcome its RNG and actually end fights faster as a utility healer, the card buffs would need to be strong enough that most people will cry OP.

I just don't see any easy answer, unless they added the "risk vs. reward" switch...

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Thanks for proving that AST can clear it just like the rest it just takes the team doing the right things.

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Yes and as mentioned before by Richard and many others lol, ONLY if everyone makes little to no mistakes (actually you JUST said it yourself, it takes the team doing the right things, which doesn't happen all the time) and it is quite a struggle compared to WHM. There should be no reason for you to be struggling on AST when WHM and SCH can ease things by a far lot. If the 3 jobs can't contribute to the run equally with the same gear, there is a lack of balance. It's as clear as the sun.

Richard said that yes, it's a big feat completing it with an AST and that is precisely the point. It shouldn't be like that! lol It is a big feat because the job clearly, is weak. No, it's definetely NOT "like the rest.". Anyways this has been said over and over and now I just feel some people are just being purposely blind to not admit what is right in front of them. Go try savage A2+ on AST and tell us how it goes, though.

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Originally Posted by Kaizersan

Thanks for proving that AST can clear it just like the rest it just takes the team doing the right things.

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...Or you could take a SCH/WHM and give your team the leeway to screw up a little bit because even the best mess up once in a while (or get hit with lag spikes...).

Why would you take a healer that objectively places more of a strain on the team?

Progression raiders bring the strongest possible team for a reason, and even non-progression raiders (who are likely to make many more mistakes) aren't going to want to wipe again and again because someone wants to play as a less effective healer.

I mean...
"It's totally okay that you bring a weaker healer that brings absolutely nothing to the raid team that other healers don't, and we totally don't mind that the ensuing wipes will do nothing but waste our time and cost us repair money, when you could've instead brought a SCH/WHM and we could've cleared the content instead." - No Competent Raid Leader, ever.

I'll give people a pass if they're actively trying to test AST's potency, but beyond that, there's NO reason to bring an AST right now.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

The problem is that if you're wiping to DPS checks, a WHM/SCH duo allows the SCH to do a hell of a lot more DPS and, as people have been saying in the thread, that's what their experience has been and the content becomes dramatically easier once they switched to this combo.

And that's actually BACKWARDS: the whole point of AST is that you should be making DPS checks faster because of the buffs, and if we're not, then there's NO point to AST at all. :\

I'm guessing that if you had a WHM/SCH combo you'd have just rolled right through it...

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The thing you need to take into account is alot of these people start off with AST and are only having issues due to DPS messing up and taking damage that they shouldn't and then they switched to WHM after the DPS have gotten what to do down and then it seems easier not because they are WHM now but because the DPS are now better at avoiding damage.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I mean...
"It's totally okay that you bring a weaker healer that brings absolutely nothing to the raid team that other healers don't, and we totally don't mind that the ensuing wipes will do nothing but waste our time and cost us repair money, when you could've instead brought a SCH/WHM and we could've cleared the content instead." - No Competent Raid Leader, ever.

I'll give people a pass if they're actively trying to test AST's potency, but beyond that, there's NO reason to bring an AST right now.

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I have watched plenty of streams with WHM SCH and still wipe over and over for the same reasons AST and SCH wipe it's called DPS messing up it happens and it can cause wipes no matter what healing team you bring in.

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Originally Posted by Kaizersan

The thing you need to take into account is alot of these people start off with AST and are only having issues due to DPS messing up and taking damage that they shouldn't and then they switched to WHM after the DPS have gotten what to do down and then it seems easier not because they are WHM now but because the DPS are now better at avoiding damage.

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So your argument is that, even though these people have said that they immediately had no trouble after switching away from AST, the run on which they all switched just HAPPENED to be the same run that the DPS in every single raid group wised up and stopped getting hit by the mechanics?

...Really?

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Originally Posted by Kaizersan

I have watched plenty of streams with WHM SCH and still wipe over and over for the same reasons AST and SCH wipe it's called DPS messing up it happens and it can cause wipes no matter what healing team you bring in.

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Yes, and when people go from wiping constantly with an AST to having little trouble with a WHM or SCH, what else could be blamed except for the AST?

No one is saying that every group with SCH/WHM is going to clear it every time, nor that every group with an AST will fail miserably every time.

The point is that we have a number of examples of people who tried with AST, found it hard or undoable, and then, with all other variables unchanged, switched to a different healer and cleared the content.

This confirms that the AST is a weaker healer and is in need of being brought in line with the other two.

I appreciate your point about people messing things up regardless of the healing comp, but when my AST healer asks for help with regular tank healing because he doesn't have the MP to keep up with it, there's a big problem. In addition, there's realistically very little in A1 to mess up as a DD. Get your mob into position in time, pop keen flurry when you get prey. If you get hit by anything avoidable in A1, you simply die.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

So your argument is that, even though these people have said that they immediately had no trouble after switching away from AST, the run on which they all switched just HAPPENED to be the same run that the DPS in every single raid group wised up and stopped getting hit by the mechanics?

...Really?

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Yep tell me this is a DPS better at avoiding damage after 5 tries or 20 the correct answer is 20 so yea its like Bis EX a healer can heal a perfect run but if the DPS screw up a rotation and don't put out enough damage it doesn't matter how good the healers are but in this case its the DPS avoiding damage.

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Originally Posted by Kaizersan

Yep tell me this is a DPS better at avoiding damage after 5 tries or 20 the correct answer is 20 so yea its like Bis EX a healer can heal a perfect run but if the DPS screw up a rotation and don't put out enough damage it doesn't matter how good the healers are but in this case its the DPS avoiding damage.

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http://media.giphy.com/media/Ve9pOjJRxkW2c/giphy.gif

Also, you might want to read up on this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

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Originally Posted by Elim

I realize that the devs do not take healer DPS into consideration, but the playerbase (that raids) does.

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If you've read the quote where they say that then you've already read the rest of it where they basically say they don't care. They don't design raids to only be done by the 1% that go in undergeared and need healer dps. They design it for a higher gear level where healer dps doesn't matter, so that a larger portion of the playerbase can actually go in and complete the content without feeling like they need to do more than what their class was designed for.

Because, you know, they're in this to make money so making the most amount of players feel like content is within their reach is important. If you expect them to change the way classes and raids are designed just for those world first/first week clear groups, then Wildstar's failure would like to say hello.

I'm not saying you can just go and change people's expectations, but they balance the game with certain ideas in mind so if you're playing in a different manner than intended, you're going to have to expect different results.

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Originally Posted by Zilara

I appreciate your point about people messing things up regardless of the healing comp, but when my AST healer asks for help with regular tank healing because he doesn't have the MP to keep up with it, there's a big problem. In addition, there's realistically very little in A1 to mess up as a DD. Get your mob into position in time, pop keen flurry when you get prey. If you get hit by anything avoidable in A1, you simply die.

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The question you should ask are they healing properly and are they using their free heal everytime they need a big heal to save on MP also are they using synastry to help cure multiple people saving mp.

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

If you've read the quote where they say that then you've already read the rest of it where they basically say they don't care. They don't design raids to only be done by the 1% that go in undergeared and need healer dps. They design it for a higher gear level where healer dps doesn't matter, so that a larger portion of the playerbase can actually go in and complete the content without feeling like they need to do more than what their class was designed for. I'm not saying you can just go and change people's expectations, but they balance the game with certain ideas in mind so if you're playing in a different manner than intended, you're going to have to expect different results.

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This seems a bit suspect to me, mainly because healer DPS only gets better as a group gets more geared and for them to outright IGNORE its existence is just bizarre.

If healers are able to DPS now when everyone has worse gear (weaker heals, lower HP, etc.), they should only be able to do even MORE DPS when players are geared to the point where the content will feel almost trivial...

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Originally Posted by Kaizersan

The question you should ask are they healing properly and are they using their free heal everytime they need a big heal to save on MP also are they using synastry to help cure multiple people saving mp.

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So you're going with the "they don't know how to play the class" argument, eh?

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

This seems a bit suspect to me, mainly because healer DPS only gets better as a group gets more geared and for them to outright IGNORE its existence is just bizarre.

If healers are able to DPS now when everyone has worse gear (weaker heals, lower HP, etc.), they should only be able to do even MORE DPS when players are geared to the point where the content will feel almost trivial...

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Yes but their point was in that quote was to say that once your whole group has enough gear, healer dps is not needed to clear. So sure your healers will have more dps, but so will your tanks and dps. They don't care if healers dps to make it go faster, but they're not making it required to clear, simply because that would severely limit the amount of players that can clear the content (and then you'd have a Wildstar style situation on your hands). That's a big difference.

Realistically no game balances anything around the 1%, because you want to make games and most of the content accessible.

You're welcome to watch Lucrezia's Savage A2 video. It's 10 minutes of nonstop tank damage. Give it a watch and lemme know if you think you'd have the MP management to heal it on Astro.

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

Yes but their point was in that quote was to say that once your whole group has enough gear, healer dps is not needed to clear. So sure your healers will have more dps, but so will your tanks and dps. They don't care if healers dps to make it go faster, but they're not making it required to clear, simply because that would severely limit the amount of players that can clear the content (and then you'd have a Wildstar style situation on your hands). That's a big difference.

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Well, yeah, but that would imply that the content should be doubly easier once everyone is geared, right?

Eh, it is what it is, but it's not relevant to the discussion since we're still not seeing significant DPS increases from ASTs anyway (certainly not enough to justify their weaker heals).

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

http://media.giphy.com/media/Ve9pOjJRxkW2c/giphy.gif

Also, you might want to read up on this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

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Just pointing clear cut facts that people get better as they experience the same thing over and over this is no different.

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

...without feeling like they need to do more than what their class was designed for.

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Every combat class in the game is designed to kill things, so I've never found the "not in my Job description" argument credible.

The question for roles aside from DPS is simply "When and how should I help the party kill things while making sure I'm taking care of my main responsibility?"

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Well, yeah, but that would imply that the content should be doubly easier once everyone is geared, right?

Eh, it is what it is, but it's not relevant to the discussion since we're still not seeing significant DPS increases from ASTs anyway (certainly not enough to justify their weaker heals).

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Well you have to remember though that the people completing Savage now, that can only clear it with healer dps, are doing it undergeared. They should otherwise not be in there. When you have better gear - the point at which the average player decides to go in and try Savage - then it'll be a different experience. Yes it'll be easier than it is now, but that's by design.

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Originally Posted by Kaizersan

Just pointing clear cut facts that people get better as they experience the same thing over and over this is no different.

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And I pointed out that this "clear fact" wasn't relevant to the discussion because the situations people described were that switching away from AST immediately made the run a great deal easier.

They didn't say, "I switched to WHM and then after the DPS finished getting their crap together, we cleared it." They described it as an IMMEDIATE change, not a gradual one.

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

Well you have to remember though that the people completing Savage now, that can only clear it with healer dps, are doing it undergeared. They should otherwise not be in there. When you have better gear - the point at which the average player decides to go in and try Savage - then it'll be a different experience. Yes it'll be easier than it is now, but that's by design.

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Very true, but assuming everything will scale at roughly the same pace, AST is going to continue to be in dead last as a healer in the overall benefit they bring to a raid.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Every combat class in the game is designed to kill things, so I've never found the "not in my Job description" argument credible.

The question for roles aside from DPS is simply "When and how should I help the party kill things while making sure I'm taking care of my main responsibility?"

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I'm just repeating a quote from Yoshi so it's not really my argument, more like his statement of fact about how they design the game. Feel free to argue with Yoshi P on that one.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Very true, but assuming everything will scale at roughly the same pace, AST is going to continue to be in dead last as a healer in the overall benefit they bring to a raid.

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I think everyone agrees AST needs further changes. Just not in the dps department.

Let's say current Ilvl is 185, and the fight is tuned for 200. At ilvl 200 a group will not need healer DPS to clear. But at 185, there isn't enough tank/mele dps available so healer DPS is needed. That means the fight is tuned for no healer DPS, but the early adopters need healers to chip in. If they did it the other way (tuned for healer dps at 200) no one would clear until close to 200 - and then groups who didn't have healer dps still couldn't clear

I think this is okay like this - as it takes a very skilled healer and group coordination to add dps will also healing in the top line progression content. Not everyone is going to be able to do it even if they tried. But then when the team gets to the proper ilvl - the healers can be less stressed (as we know very well from this forum, some aren't good enough, and some simply don't want to or don't like to) feeling they have to add dps and just heal.

Although one thing that will always be true - if you have 4 DPS at say 900 dps, and both healers at 0 - and you are 200 dps below a check. It will almost always be easier to get a healer form 0-200, than a dps who are already pushing dps hard, from 900-1100. Or even 4 DPS from 900-950.

Although there are semantics in play here too. The encounter is playable now, and people ware trying to clear it now. The fact that it's tuned for Ilvl 200 could be seen as irrelevant, and the case could be made that it is currently tuned for actually needing healer dps to be cleared, despite SE's public stance to the contrary. As "now" seems more relevant a basis point to define from, than in 3-4 weeks when players are more geared.

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

I think everyone agrees AST needs further changes. Just not in the dps department.

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Well, it would depend on whether we're talking about the AST doing more DPS or enabling the party to do more DPS.

I'd rather they just make the heals better, though, as it's easier to balance.

From the next post:

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Originally Posted by Kaizersan

If they happen to not be healing properly then yes because a lot of players panic on heavy damage and waste mp or forget to use abilities that could save them mp and it's not like AST has been around for a year or anything like WHM and SCH have.

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So people have been playing WHM/SCH with all level 60 abilities for a year, eh?

Look, people have had to say this in the past and I'll say it again here: there is NO magical trick to AST to "get the most out of it" or some other such nonsense that theorycrafting forumers seem to love to rant about.

The class' healing abilities are largely a watered-down version of WHM's, with a few unique ones like Synastry and Light Speed, neither of which requires rocket science to use.

The only "mystery" here is why people (many of whom don't even have the class to 60) seem to think that it's actually fine when all evidence points to the opposite being true...

Not trying to be mean, but seriously, we can see where the class' weaknesses lie and we need to give SE some good feedback on fixing it. Saying it's all good isn't going to help anything.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

So you're going with the "they don't know how to play the class" argument, eh?

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If they happen to not be healing properly then yes because a lot of players panic on heavy damage and waste mp or forget to use abilities that could save them mp and it's not like AST has been around for a year or anything like WHM and SCH have.

[QUOTE=Leiloni;317744

I'm not saying you can just go and change people's expectations, but they balance the game with certain ideas in mind so if you're playing in a different manner than intended, you're going to have to expect different results. [/QUOTE] (copy paste issue not sure why it did that)

they balance around the 1% thou. Regardless of who is doing the raids. And jsut beacuse they do not design the raid around healer dps does not mean people should not or that yoshi p does not want people to dps as healer. If they made raids for everyone (like normal mode was made for) then most people would have done Final coil by now which is not true. They are adding more casual friendly content, but still balance and make content for high end players.3]If you've read the quote where they say that then you've already read the rest of it where they basically say they don't care. They don't design raids to only be done by the 1% that go in undergeared and need healer dps. They design it for a higher gear level where healer dps doesn't matter, so that a larger portion of the playerbase can actually go in and complete the content without feeling like they need to do more than what their class was designed for.

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Originally Posted by Elim

Hi, Grekumah. I just wanted to make sure you saw this thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ring-A1-Savage.

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Wow. They put that in better words than I could ever have. I 100% agree.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Well, it would depend on whether we're talking about the AST doing more DPS or enabling the party to do more DPS.

I'd rather they just make the heals better, though, as it's easier to balance.

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Oh yes I meant personal healer dps skills only. But our other skills - supportive abilities and heals, could use some love for sure.

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

Oh yes I meant personal healer dps skills only. But our other skills - supportive abilities and heals, could use some love for sure.

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putting it that way yes most will agree.

Like even simple non potency buffs would help AST like Aspect Helios having the range as medica 2 and being able to place CU without having to channel it would greatly increase AST overall healing power.

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

I'm just repeating a quote from Yoshi so it's not really my argument, more like his statement of fact about how they design the game. Feel free to argue with Yoshi P on that one.

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Except that Yoshi never said what you are implying he said. His comments were on how they set minimum DPS clear requirements for raids, not how any of the classes/jobs in the game were designed. So no, I won't need to go arguing with Yoshi P over something he never said.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Except that Yoshi never said what you are implying he said. His comments were on how they set minimum DPS clear requirements for raids, not how any of the classes/jobs in the game were designed. So no, I won't need to go arguing with Yoshi P over something he never said.

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I think you're construing things that were never intended from their posts, though. Most people have. All that was meant was that they don't design encounters expecting healers to DPS, which implies strongly that they design content assuming they are healers primarily, and *not* DPS. That doesn't mean healers are not *supposed* to DPS, only that the development team doesn't assume they do or expect them to.

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

I think everyone agrees AST needs further changes. Just not in the dps department.

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I think I am only seeing the same few people agree. Alot of people also feel that Astrologian job is in a very good place and will perform as well as the other healers in Savage which they seem to be doing well in.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

I think I am only seeing the same few people agree. Alot of people also feel that Astrologian job is in a very good place and will perform as well as the other healers in Savage which they seem to be doing well in.

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No, just no ... AST is not in a very good place, it struggles to do what the 2 others can do much more easily. So please stop spreading misinformation.

Like its been said a million times already, we know that its not impossible to clear A1S but it shouldn't be that much more demanding than on other healers jobs.

Its not because some people can clear it that suddenly we should turn a blind eye on all the flaws of the job.

Trying to mispread information yourself? Thematically it is impossible for Astrologian to be so far behind white mage and scholar that they struggle since astro is only 20 potency behind white mage. That negates to barely 100 hps lost along with the strongest (on 40 second cooldown) instant cast heal int he game with upwards of 1k potency if you learn to time it properly along with light speed which i clocked an astro burst healing for about 2k single target I am not not sure you are just trying to make a mountain out of a ant hill.

Astro is not as simple as scholar or white mage. It takes thought and coordination to maximize your card use but to claim they are not in a good situation is worse then spreading misinformation. It is borderline lying. If astro could not handle Savage then we would have issues but we so far have too little data to back your claim but actual proof that astro's are healing savage mode. Wait and see instead of yelling the sky is falling please.

I am sure the Devs will only listen to the feedback from lvl 60 ASTs that are doing Savage and not a level zero AST with no experience with the job whatsoever, whose intentions are being too obvious now. I am not going to be rude, but I do ask to please stop spreading misinformation if you don't have experience with the job and less with it in Savage.

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Originally Posted by kiraan

No, just no ... AST is not in a very good place, it struggles to do what the 2 others can do much more easily. So please stop spreading misinformation.

Like its been said a million times already, we know that its not impossible to clear A1S but it shouldn't be that much more demanding than on other healers jobs.

Its not because some people can clear it that suddenly we should turn a blind eye on all the flaws of the job.

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Kiraan, he is just trolling, don't even bother. lol

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Originally Posted by Galdous

Trying to mispread information yourself? Thematically it is impossible for Astrologian to be so far behind white mage and scholar that they struggle since astro is only 20 potency behind white mage.

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It's getting really tiring hearing this. Potency of heals is not the issue; it's the distinct lack of healing cool downs and ways to increase throughput when needed that AST lacks compared to SCH/WHM.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

Trying to mispread information yourself? Thematically it is impossible for Astrologian to be so far behind white mage and scholar that they struggle since astro is only 20 potency behind white mage. That negates to barely 100 hps lost along with the strongest (on 40 second cooldown) instant cast heal int he game with upwards of 1k potency if you learn to time it properly along with light speed which i clocked an astro burst healing for about 2k single target I am not not sure you are just trying to make a mountain out of a ant hill.

Astro is not as simple as scholar or white mage. It takes thought and coordination to maximize your card use but to claim they are not in a good situation is worse then spreading misinformation. It is borderline lying. If astro could not handle Savage then we would have issues but we so far have too little data to back your claim but actual proof that astro's are healing savage mode. Wait and see instead of yelling the sky is falling please.

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Astrologian base heals are the most mana efficient heals in the game in terms of potency per mana. Their potencies are fine; however, what everyone is talking about is BOOSTING those potencies through the use of cooldowns. At this current moment, Astrologians do not have many tools to mitigate enough damage OR boost healing potency like Fey Illumination, Rouse or Divine Seal can in situations where you stem away from sustained healing into burst-like healing.

Since Astrologians suffer from GCD syndrome like White Mages did in 2.0, just imagine White Mage without Cure III, Presence of Mind, Divine Seal, Assize, Benediction and Asylum (I left tetragrammaton because despite Essential Dignity being awesome, it does not top to 100%) with 4 additional swiftcasts instead. You're stuck relying on the other healer to heal during GCDs or your regens--which by the way, is the worst thing to rely on when you need someone at a certain HP pool before the global HoT tick happens.

EDIT 2: I forgot about Cure III.
EDIT 3: In case there are some players who do not understand raid healing, healers have 5 things working against them:

- GCD (Time until next heal)
- Time (Incoming Damage)
- Resources (MP, Cooldowns)
- Human Error (Avoidable damage taken, mechanics not being done, cooldowns not being used properly, etc.)
- Group Class Proficiency (Entire raid group is working around 90% or 100% to the maximum class potencial--numbers pulled out of thin air, but it should be easy to understand that if you have a raid group who is pushing their respective classes close to their limits in the bare minimum iLvL, things should be relatively easier. The only thing that cancels out proficiency is stat walls such as Savage A3 at the moment).

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

So people have been playing WHM/SCH with all level 60 abilities for a year.

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Once again you miss the point I said WHM and SCH I didn't say anything about the level difference as that is pointless as AST is a brand new class from the ground up and also WHM and SCH have had a years worth of refinement behind them to get where they are now I mean if you took 2.0 WHM and SCH at 60 and put them against savage Alexander they would fail.

You made your own point. Astro has less cooldowns than a 2.0 WHM or SCH right now, at 60, when SCH/WHM both gained a number of free abilities they drastically boost their healing output. Too much of their toolkit is tied up in cards for it to have access to the kind of abilities it needs for progression.