I'm all for clever localization but please don't just leave out important story.

Greetings!

While there have been some good points and views brought up, this thread has begun changing into two opposing groups arguing over semantics to justify their points. While feedback about the translations and localization is welcome, if the thread remains focused on convincing people who do not agree with you that they need to agree with you, I will be closing the thread since those arguments are not generating a productive, civil discussion. This will require further moderation - with accompanying forum account actions - over comments made in the heat of the moment. If the thread itself is not moving forward in a meaningful way, I would rather not have to issue those account actions that can impact the status of your forum accounts and posting permissions.

Please remain civil with each other in your discussions about your feelings about translation and localization, and, if you feel yourself repeating your comments, maybe take a break from the thread to prevent saying something negative you may later regret.

LGM Enkrateia

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atmora

Inception had characters with motivations that were not directly stated or immediately apparent therefor it is too hard to understand.

---

Inception is not a video game marketed at teenagers and--seriously, we could play this game all day until you come up with an actually decent comparison, but there's literally no point to it because you have completely missed the focus of my original statement. The choices the English team made were based on Ferne's dragonspeak ideas. The other teams did not seem to think following his dragonspeak rules for this scene was a good idea. Therefore, I believe that, as in many things, majority should have ruled and the English team should have done something that was closer to the decisions the other teams made. The fact that they didn't seems to be, to me at least, because they were too close and too personally invested in the whole dragonspeak concept and didn't want to ditch that.

I said nothing about whether or not the English translation was quality writing or whether or not it was hard to understand because it was poorly written. That is an entirely different issue and I have no idea why in the world you chose to fixate on a single phrase of my post as if that was my sole arguing point against the English translation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

... you really can't see why the English localization decided to tone down a character who sexually harasses the PC?

---

You can? the character is that way, the game has an age rating so it's valid and legal, you may like him or not, you may be gay or straight, but a work of art can't be changed by ideals or cultural differences, not in this age, it has been done in the past and because of it the world have lost important pieces, i made a reference of how the catholic scribes back in the middle ages "localized" some Asian texts.


EDIT:

I'm sorry Enkrateia, will keep it civil form now and try to avoid repeating information.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

post number 125

---

To avoid making a new post and repeating myself i edited this post, could you refer to one of my previous post where i explain the method used by the dev team? explained by Yoshi in one of the public events.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

... you really can't see why the English localization decided to tone down a character who sexually harasses the PC?

---

Seeming the same NPC is allowed to sexually harass the character during the last Heavensturn event, yes, I question the two-toned logic in that.

The Heavensturn event completely threw the NA crowd off guard with no understanding why until they educated themselves to the point that hey, that's how the character ACTUALLY was, it just got censored before that point.

Listen, I get the concept of trying to shield the eyes of people from hot button topics, but I've been over that already: this game has a Teen Rating with the typical Online disclaimer: We don't need to treat these subject matters with kid gloves - especially when we do it inconsistently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renik

In any case, what is being discussed here, in case you haven't noticed, is how a single localization team is taking too much liberty to the point, they affect the characters' personalities and the information they give, as much as i admire Ferne for all the lore information he releases to the public, he and his team have crossed the line this time, and by this i mean since 2.4, where the changes started to be more noticeable and annoying.

---

You clearly do not understand how professional translation actually works. Translators cannot "take too much liberty" because they are required to have their translations approved by a higher authority-- aka the people who hired them to do the translation in the first place.

How do I know this? Because I have done profesional Japanese-English translation. I spent five years working for a Japanese company where one of my responsibilities was to translate various documentation, correspondence, etc. from Japanese into English. Every time I did so, even if it was something as mundane as translating PowerPoint slides for a conference, I had to have the original author approve my translations and make sure that they were conveying the proper intent. One time I was tasked with translating an official recall notice issued by a certain very large Japanese auto manufacturer. I was given very strict guidelines within which to work for this particular translation: the formatting MUST follow the formatting of the original Japanese recall notice exactly, certain terms/phrases MUST be translated a certain way, etc. On top of that, I then had to have it approved by two different sets of people before it was accepted.

The idea that the translators and localization team just do whatever they want without input from the higher-ups is not only laughable, it is patently false. That isn't how things work at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Intaki

You mean entirely different as in consisting of more than two dimensions?

I appreciate that you have your own likes and dislikes, and that you apparently enjoy the "old sage" cliche. But haven't we had enough of those for now? Old Sage Louisoux, Old Sage Ramuh, Old Sage Manderville, heck we could probably even stick Kan-E-Senna in here too.

Now, as far as ensuring all the translations of the game should be on the same page? I completely agree, and wholeheartedly support the other sectors (including JP) taking more inspiration and direction from the great writing Fern's team has given us.

---

You know what. I'll agree there. If the translations are the same across the board, we woulden't be having this heated of a discussion. Regardless of which, I do feel we need to have a more unified depiction of the story going forward, without huge outliers like we had here.


That is the core of my critique - not that the fact that we have a grumpy old Midgardsormr who thinks the player character is trash. My critique is that we now have two different Midgardsomrs floating around in everyone's head, giving different parts of information across the board.

If he's going to be obtuse and obscuring, or subtle and snide, let him be that way across the board. My opinion is that there should not be dependencies of information given and characterizations depicted. If for no other reason that for multi-lingual groups, one thing that could be counted as spoilers for one group is being flat out given to another.

One characterization per character please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

The idea that the translators and localization team just do whatever they want without input from the higher-ups is not only laughable, it is patently false. That isn't how things work at all.

---

That's a red herring. Nobody is questioning whether or not the localization was approved, we're criticizing the fact that it was too far deviant from the other languages. The original writing team condoning or consenting to the Localization of Midgardsormor is irrelevant to the feedback provided.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

That's a red herring. Nobody is questioning whether or not the localization was approved, we're criticizing the fact that it was too far deviant from the other languages. The original writing team condoning or consenting to the Localization of Midgardsormor is irrelevant to the feedback provided.

---

But it isn't. If you pay attention to what Midgardsormr is saying, it's exactly the same thing in both languages. The only difference is that he's far more verbose and exposition-dumping in Japanese than in English.

I played it in English first and had no trouble coming away from that scene knowing that a) he was testing us rather than trying to harm us, b) that he was doing so in agreement with Hydaelyn, and c) that the dragons were attacking because of what Ishgard was doing. It's all there in the English text, they just aren't beating you over the head with it the way they are in Japanese.

From what it sounds like is the English players got a much better version in our localization, I found it very easy to understand. At no point did I not understand what he had done to me and what he intended to do. We can argue semantics all day long, but SE approved our translation regardless and literally no amount of crying about it will change that fact. If people had issues understanding the english version of the story then I feel bad that subtlety is lost on them.

In all honesty this topic needs to be dropped and forgotten, if you want to change things then try and get hired on the localization team. Don't be upset if the devs themselves change it from the JP version too much for your liking though.

I completely agree with the OP. The reasoning given would justify if that's how the dialogue was for all language options, but it doesn't justify giving English a fraction of the story points with a fraction of the clarity. The disparity between the languages is unacceptable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

But it isn't. If you pay attention to what Midgardsormr is saying, it's exactly the same thing in both languages. The only difference is that he's far more verbose and exposition-dumping in Japanese than in English.

I played it in English first and had no trouble coming away from that scene knowing that a) he was testing us rather than trying to harm us, b) that he was doing so in agreement with Hydaelyn, and c) that the dragons were attacking because of what Ishgard was doing. It's all there in the English text, they just aren't beating you over the head with it the way they are in Japanese.

---

Sorry, but I question that, the translation is quite different. Perhaps you may have deduced his meaning within context, but I submit to you perhaps that it was not due to his words in a vacuum.

The mention of a repeated Sin is omitted in the English version completely, it's not even inferred.
The intent to resume attacking is omitted in the Japaneese version, it's not even inferred.

English Midgarsormor omits completely the fact that he is testing the player character. Instead it is inferred only that he is bound to the Player character by compact, and kept from harming the player character by oath.

There is subtlty there, but it does not lead to the same points as translated text, not on its own.

Player may discover the points you are listing is from knowledge outside of the original conversation. You put the last cutscene of 2.4 (or what the Astrologians say in previous cutscenes) and what Midgardsomr says and deduce that the sin may be repeating. That's subtly on behalf of the writer, not the Wyrm, by my gauging.

You may deduce that Midgardsormr may be putting you through trials after Keeper of the Lake when he questions your motive, or deduce as such when you realize the minion appears to be the same as the Storyline Mount revealed at Fanfest, or even due to the fact that he's now effectively permanently by your side - why else would he become a minion and not just some specter-ed head or disembodied voice?

It's an interesting question to think about at least. I do wonder if that's by design of the Dragon Language, leaving the player to pull the pieces together from a greater context than the conversation had?

I pay close attention to each scene, as I thoroughly enjoy the story depicted. And I can't honestly agree with your assessment of his speech, specifically the one given at the Keeper of the Lake. That's why I'm making this feedback. I'm honestly not expecting a grand rewriting, or a complete change in writing course, even for dragon speak. Just a bit more care taken in how scenes deviate from one another in translation. Either the other languages more stylized and obscure, or English language a touch more literal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wobi

In all honesty this topic needs to be dropped and forgotten, if you want to change things then try and get hired on the localization team. Don't be upset if the devs themselves change it from the JP version too much for your liking though.

---

That's... not how customer feedback works. I understand your intention. But you may be mistaking feedback for a tantrum. A developer worth their salt listens to player feedback and makes feasible adjustments as they deem necessary. I am bothered by this, but not so much that I will leave the game in anger.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wobi

In all honesty this topic needs to be dropped and forgotten, if you want to change things then try and get hired on the localization team. Don't be upset if the devs themselves change it from the JP version too much for your liking though.

---

I disagree that it should be forgotten but the heated-ness needs to be toned down. I really like the presentation and style that the localization team has done to the story, the issue is when I discuss with someone using a different language (my wife for example). I'll say something like, I bet x character thinks/feels/will do y. Then she responds with a confused "Why? They aren't anything like that." This is where I have my gripe. Not in the quality of story presented but consistency between versions of the story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazumac

I disagree that it should be forgotten but the heated-ness needs to be toned down. I really like the presentation and style that the localization team has done to the story, the issue is when I discuss with someone using a different language (my wife for example). I'll say something like, I bet x character thinks/feels/will do y. Then she responds with a confused "Why? They aren't anything like that." This is where I have my gripe. Not in the quality of story presented but consistency between versions of the story.

---

Here's a question I'd like to pose to the localization team, slight spoilers ahead for those who have not done wanderer's Palace Hard.

The two predominant quest givers are depicted in English as a same Sex couple - I wonder if they are done so in Japaneese. If so, I applaud them. If not, this is another example of the feedback I'm trying to give. Whether or not it 'appeals' to the sensibilities of all who play, I feel as if the playerbase deserves a single, unified story to share together, from the large sweeping stories to even the small, sometimes uncomfortable parts.

I really do prefer the English version of the characters and writing and I'm hoping nothing major changes. I'm not really a fan of the Japanese script.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wobi

From what it sounds like is the English players got a much better version in our localization, I found it very easy to understand. At no point did I not understand what he had done to me and what he intended to do. We can argue semantics all day long, but SE approved our translation regardless and literally no amount of crying about it will change that fact. If people had issues understanding the english version of the story then I feel bad that subtlety is lost on them.

---

Same and I agree. I enjoyed the version we got.

The French version is close to the English version, nothing is in the French that is not said in the English.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

Here's a question I'd like to pose to the localization team, slight spoilers ahead for those who have not done wanderer's Palace Hard.

The two predominant quest givers are depicted in English as a same Sex couple - I wonder if they are done so in Japaneese. If so, I applaud them. If not, this is another example of the feedback I'm trying to give. Whether or not it 'appeals' to the sensibilities of all who play, I feel as if the playerbase deserves a single, unified story to share together, from the large sweeping stories to even the small, sometimes uncomfortable parts.

---

They are. I watched my bf unlock that quest, he was zooming in on the Miqote and said, "...however you look at it, that's a man, right?", I confirmed and he said, "...why are they putting BL in the game..."

So yes, it is there in Japanese too, I was a bit surprised to be honest. To most JP players it probably feels like fanservice for women rather than a reflection of RL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

Here's a question I'd like to pose to the localization team, slight spoilers ahead for those who have not done wanderer's Palace Hard.

The two predominant quest givers are depicted in English as a same Sex couple - I wonder if they are done so in Japaneese. If so, I applaud them. If not, this is another example of the feedback I'm trying to give. Whether or not it 'appeals' to the sensibilities of all who play, I feel as if the playerbase deserves a single, unified story to share together, from the large sweeping stories to even the small, sometimes uncomfortable parts.

---

I've been wondering that myself. Are those 2 gay in all versions? Or was that something just for the English version? Not that I'm for or against it, I'm just curious.

edit nevermind above posted while i was typing. Guess it's the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

The two predominant quest givers are depicted in English as a same Sex couple - I wonder if they are done so in Japaneese.

---

I think they're saying more or less the same thing, but my Japanese is pretty poor.

Number one on my wish list for this game continues to be the addition of the unembellished, pre-localization edits script to the client language options. I love the flavor of the localisation, but it's distressing how it's getting less and less trustworthy.

Chances are that we'll get to 3.0 and the localisation team will be caught with their pants down if they continue to stick with their personal ideas on how dragons should speak. We've already had Acheron getting his name changed (admittedly minor, but still relevant) and Haurchefant having his personality reverted to his Japanese persona and those are only the ones I've personally picked up on. I can almost envision missed information becoming of vital importance and English players wondering why upcoming plot points seem to come out of left field and being forced to a.) just go with the flow, b.) clutch at straws in an attempt to justify something they couldn't have seen coming or c.) skip the cutscene because it makes no sense.

At the end of the day, we're not talking about minor characters with this particular change and so any changes will be much more punishing down the line.

"Fight and struggle, if be thy will." and "Man hath ever coveted that which lieth beyond his grasp." does NOT sound like he is testing you, it sounds like he has already judged you. Nothing in the English version suggests he is testing you, everything points at him seeing you as an enemy and not having any doubt about it.

Important things are omitted from the English version. With some people's amount of "read between the lines", they could just as well defend the conclusion that Midgardsormr has a crush on the player.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riepah

With some people's amount of "read between the lines", they could just as well defend the conclusion that Midgardsormr has a crush on the player.

---

English script now 100% Shiva approved!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

The mention of a repeated Sin is omitted in the English version completely, it's not even inferred.

---

Yes it is; that's what the whole "sons will pay for the sins of the fathers" line is about. I'm a bit surprised that everyone seems to think that line is referring solely to things that happened in the past, because to me it was quite clear that it's referring to the repeating cycle. Things that my parents did can affect me down the line, and likewise, my actions can affect my future children.

The localization reminds me of an interview I read long ago on persona 3, and that "certain dialogue changes had to be made because of different cultures and some things in Japan wouldn't translate well for English speakers, so we had to pick something close to it so that the English audience can understand easier"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Yes it is; that's what the whole "sons will pay for the sins of the fathers" line is about. I'm a bit surprised that everyone seems to think that line is referring solely to things that happened in the past, because to me it was quite clear that it's referring to the repeating cycle. Things that my parents did can affect me down the line, and likewise, my actions can affect my future children.

---

The problem with this is that "the sons will pay for the sins of the fathers" doesn't in any way imply that the sons are also sinning themselves. It implies a cycle of retribution, but not that the sons are in any way personally deserving of that retribution themselves because they are committing the same sins. In fact, the opposite is more commonly implied--when someone pays for someone else's sins, the general connotation is that the person paying is actually innocent and is being unfairly punished for the actions of another.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riepah

Important things are omitted from the English version. With some people's amount of "read between the lines", they could just as well defend the conclusion that Midgardsormr has a crush on the player.

---

Midgardsommr - I-It's not that I like you or anything! B-baka Adventurer...

There's something I feel needs to be pointed out, obvious though it may be to some...

While the translation provided by someone on reddit is much more accurate to the meaning of the text, it is not at all accurate to the feeling or tone, because it is focused on the meaning of the words. Though there are definitely things missing from the official English version of the text, it is important not to conflate them with the Japanese version being overly plain or straightforward if you do not understand Japanese and are relying on the reddit translation. Words like 汝, 己, 鬨の声, or 轟く are not really a part of modern Japanese, and are usually only seen in video games and stories set in other times.

Again, that's not to say that there isn't something missing from the English version. Just don't confuse someone else's translation for the Japanese being simple or plain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsukino

There's something I feel needs to be pointed out, obvious though it may be to some...

While the translation provided by someone on reddit is much more accurate to the meaning of the text, it is not at all accurate to the feeling or tone, because it is focused on the meaning of the words. Though there are definitely things missing from the official English version of the text, it is important not to conflate them with the Japanese version being overly plain or straightforward if you do not understand Japanese and are relying on the reddit translation. Words like 汝, 己, 鬨の声, or 轟く are not really a part of modern Japanese, and are usually only seen in video games and stories set in other times.

Again, that's not to say that there isn't something missing from the English version. Just don't confuse someone else's translation for the Japanese being simple or plain.

---

Agnes Lynd here.
There's a disclaimer right there saying that in fact the second translation is not stylistically edited at all.
However, Japanese text despite being written in faux olde Japanese so commonly used for characters such as Midgardsormr in Japanese pop fiction/fantasy, is very straightforward.
It pretty much amounts to the same thing as sprinkling the text with words and wordforms such as harken, thou and comesth in otherwise modern English.

I like it when a script doesn't blatantly explain every detail when it doesn't need to. There are things that didn't need to be stated in order for the reader/viewer/player to understand what is going on. If you're paying attention to the events and what's being said then you don't need the writer bashing your head in by telling you exactly what's going on after you figured it out.

I'm not sure about you all, but to me when the writer just lays out everything in plain it makes it feel like the writer thinks we, the audience, are too stupid to piece things together.

For example, in the English version of the dialogue Midgardsomr says "Guided by a star...? Heh heh heh.", but the Japanese translation says "This is true, the star in the northern skies burns with the valorous roar of my kin. This is the battlecry, calling to advance."

How much of the Japanese version could not have already been surmised by the player? It was already pointed out, or at the very least implied prior to meeting Midgardsomr that the Dravanians were preparing a full scale assault (hence Guided by a star). It doesn't need to be stated that a great dragon had roared.

Or another example; [PC shakes head in disagreement] "Seven children did I sire. One now singeth of retribution. I rise to join in the chorus..." compared to "You bid me to stop the war? You might possess the Echo, but you're just a human. I cannot grant such wish. I have awoken to answer to the roar for it was not me who roared, but one of my seven sons."

The information concerning stopping the war does not need to be stated. We already know it won't happen (because foreshadowing, prior statements, the war already having gone on for ages).

Or how about "Hearken to me, Hydaelyn! I remember... and I consent." This statement clearly implies that Midgardsomr had some sort of history with Hydaelyn. They do not need to directly say "Could it be, you think him special? Hydaelyn, you wish me to grant him power?"

His first two lines of dialogue ("By Her gifts has thou earned a moment's reprieve. Speak, mortal, and I shall listen.") imply he had some background with Hydaelyn and perhaps a previous dealing with Her.

And when he states in the Japanese one that he's testing us, the English version implies it. It's something that doesn't need to be said outright (I've noticed A LOT of localized Japanese games outright say things they didn't need to say, but that's how the writing is I guess).

I could go on for a long time on this stuff... but I won't (don't expect replies if you reply to this post, I probably won't). Ultimately, I like how the English version is. I, at least, was able to piece together the details as the story went along. I've played many JRPGs and many of them state too much of the obvious (that said, the intended audience of JRPGs in general are usually the younger teens rather than people in their late teens or adults). Not that I dislike JRPGs or their stories, but many of the ones I've played have little to nothing written in between the lines because they outright state everything to the audience.

Sorry for any typos or inconsistencies or anything. I really don't feel like proofreading at the moment. Too tired.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by File2ish

Chatty Dragon.

---

I think it all boils down to what you prefer in storytelling. On one side, we have people who feel the localized English version is "cutting" important stuff out and should stick to the Japanese script where everything is explained. On the other side, we have people who prefer to keep the English script as is so that they can go along with the ride and come to their own conclusions along the way. Of course, there's more finer details in this debate, though it seems most keep coming back to the point of how things are explained to the viewer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I think it all boils down to what you prefer in storytelling. On one side, we have people who feel the localized English version is "cutting" important stuff out and should stick to the Japanese script where everything is explained. On the other side, we have people who prefer to keep the English script as is so that they can go along with the ride and come to their own conclusions along the way. Of course, there's more finer details in this debate, though it seems most keep coming back to the point of how things are explained to the viewer.

---

This I agree with.

But muh ebin maymays, gotta fill my patch quota. Conciseness would be fine as the dragon trait if it wasn't way too concise and had left out all this info.

Once again a character is entirely different in EN than in JP, which is still perfectly fine mind you and still is for our spoony JP Elezen being normal in EN, it's just the way it's done in this case. Especially because it's such a key event, even more because at first it might lead you into thinking that sealing/severing the Blessing would have also sealed the Echo, but apparently the Echo and the Blessing are different things and sealing the Blessing doesn't cancel the Echo even though they come from the same being.

So in turn in the EN version he seals the Blessing because why not, he's a maymay spouting dickish dragon and now he rides on our shoulder or head because screw you he's a dragon, while in the JP version he pretty much explains his reasons clearly. He's still cheering for his own dragon team and won't really do anything to stop them because he also probably can't but he also thinks Ishgardians deserve it, but he doesn't come off as shady for doing what he did with the Blessing. There's a very clear difference between striping and locking away something, and he also clarifies what the trial is and that completing it will actually accomplish something good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karen_Cerfrumos

Agnes Lynd here.
There's a disclaimer right there saying that in fact the second translation is not stylistically edited at all.
However, Japanese text despite being written in faux olde Japanese so commonly used for characters such as Midgardsormr in Japanese pop fiction/fantasy, is very straightforward.
It pretty much amounts to the same thing as sprinkling the text with words and wordforms such as harken, thou and comesth in otherwise modern English.

---

Yeah, it's almost exactly the same in that sense. Just as common too, really. Everyone reading English knows what "thou" means just like everyone reading Japanese knows what "汝" means.

Just thought your disclaimer could use some repeating - seen a few people here confusing it for meaning Midgardsormr sounds "flat" or has no character, etc. Not that standard-ancient-knowledgeable-power is too far above no character, but still.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Yes it is; that's what the whole "sons will pay for the sins of the fathers" line is about. I'm a bit surprised that everyone seems to think that line is referring solely to things that happened in the past, because to me it was quite clear that it's referring to the repeating cycle. Things that my parents did can affect me down the line, and likewise, my actions can affect my future children.

---

I also was considering the time frame of 'Sormr's life. Just think about how long he has been living, compared to the life span of us the crime was done yesterday and now they're at it again. With that maybe he doesn't need to emphasize the sentence in past and present tense, it probably wouldn't make sense to him. Of course the "we do not forget" kind of conflicts with that, but not strictly per say... just ... leans against the idea. Its not a hard argument but I could see it being a possibility, time is relative after all.

From the names of his abilities in the fight you can see he has a dislike for us - we're or people like us are being judged for some crime on multiple occasions, mayhap he even includes his death. However, later he singles out Ishgard showing that he knows we're not all part of the system, but sees little worth in us as Ramuh initially did. Ramuh: "hah you guys suuu-- oh maybe you don't WoL, let me test you".

Since there is little reason for him and his kin to like us, I feel the English dialog captures what I feel to be a likely response. He has a personal opinion in this situation, we are kind of crappy to him and not worth much breath like some NPC just waiting for the PC's appearance to divulge the entire plot and previous plot just encase PC forgot to read. Only due to his respect/and or pact to Mother shall he not harm us. Particularly, he insinuates our death would have been too easy (and I believe it, being able to sever our blessing). Further to his dislike, and agreement to Mother, I think the lack of verbose exposition and Q&A time leads well to the idea he is testing us and we deserve little from him, he is not there for our beck and call.

He may not have said all so specifically like the Japanese version but imo the answers are still there, we know he stripped us of our blessing, we know he has an agreement with Mother, we know there is a rise to action against Ishgard, he will not harm us now that he knows our association, he has bound us to him, we know he is watching us, he suggests for us to fight, we know he is reforming and that those who are loyal or penitent (repented) will rejoice, this is the beginning and there will be an end with foreboding pause. After the battle he reaffirms that challenge to action (test), "Art thou a pawn, or a master of thy fate? What hast thou wrought by thine own hands, mortal?". A tremendously powerful and intelligent creature that only has a onze of interest and care for us due to his agreement with Mother.

I understand people's preference for delivery or sameness across culture-- but I feel like I've lost little and gained respect in a world environment (behaves as a character and not a whim to the PC as a convenient dues ex machina plot tool) and on a personal out of game level that I don't need it to be verbosely spelled out just encase I didn't get it. Now to be clear, I'm not saying those who want the other version are saying they can't compile and conclude information or want it because it was too hard, preference does not mean a lack of ability.

Finally I don't think this will deviate plot, he'll talk down to us until or if we can ever curry favor, but still do the same things as the other language clients. He does have an agreement with Mother and did bind us to him, he does not seek our blood, anymore - he just doesn't fancy to wipe our backside like everyone else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by File2ish

I'm not sure about you all, but to me when the writer just lays out everything in plain it makes it feel like the writer thinks we, the audience, are too stupid to piece things together.

---

These are exactly my feelings about JP Midgardsormr. He essentially serves as a giant exposition dump rather than a character in that scene, which I find MORE condescending than his English counterpart because the implication is that you are too dumb to understand or figure things out unless he explains everything to you. EN Midgardsormr may regard us with some level of contempt, but at least he doesn't think we're stupid.

You're not smarter because you saw through foreshadowing in a video game.

I don't really like cutting out details of the JP script, as someone said before, it's like we're getting an "abridged" version instead of the actual canon storyline. If the story is that lacking that the English translators felt the need to manipulate it to this degree, then we have a serious problem here that needs to be taken up with the writer, but at no point should they be manipulating the story themselves.

Wow EN got the shaft on the translation despite what Fernelhawe tried to imply in his post. The translated Japanese text was much more enjoyable to read looking back at the scene.

I love how some people in this thread, use "learning English in High School" as a proper argument against the changing of context Midgarsormr has and the missing plot points. Perhaps may chance it was that same high school education that has most of us thinking the legendary dragon has a more malicious intent based off what clearly we read in game when in fact, his intent is anything but. Perhaps it was that same high school education that has us thinking the dragons are just vengeful on something that happened in the past but unbeknownst to us, there is something Ishgard is about to do again that the dragons are truly seeking war again.

I'm sure most of us here can read English quite well, and clearly see there are missing details that are being stated in other text versus the EN translation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atmora

The thing is there is no grey area, if you even intended highschool English you should have been taught to interpret text on this level, there's no real complexity or hidden meanings he directly states everything; if you're not a native speaker that's a valid excuse but at the same time why should an english localization be catered towards you?

---

"attended", not "intended" by the way. Kinda ironic, you use a word that has a separate meaning from the correct one and are defending the EN translation, yet here we are in a thread discussing how words can mean separate things if not stated correctly.

"The Sons will pay for the sins of the fathers." Is clear reference to Old Testament biblical adage that mankind is inherently tainted by Original Sin and no child is born innocent. For it to be phrased implies in all Catholic culture that the previous sins carry on, and in no mention that these sins are repeated or in danger of.

It means that Ishgard is guilty by default, not that they are repeatedly committing the same crime. At all. There are other referential phrases that could apply to what you beleive is inferred.

Again, I see little to the contrary on my proposed theory that those claiming to 'figure out' Midgardsormors message did so through deduction of context, not inference of Midgardsormr's words alone, as line per line has already been disseminated and the results referenced in this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riepah

"Fight and struggle, if be thy will." and "Man hath ever coveted that which lieth beyond his grasp." does NOT sound like he is testing you, it sounds like he has already judged you. Nothing in the English version suggests he is testing you, everything points at him seeing you as an enemy and not having any doubt about it.

Important things are omitted from the English version. With some people's amount of "read between the lines", they could just as well defend the conclusion that Midgardsormr has a crush on the player.

---

I like this plot twist. We will be Shiva 2.0