This is non-sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicViperion
Allow me to reword your paragraph: "Good players should be able to carry noobs"
You really think its fair for 7 other people to have the fight NERFED on them because 1 person can't pull their weight? What the heck??? Now you are totally giving in to that 1 person, because Nerfing the entire fight is hurting the 7 other people who CAN clear it!!!
Booing when Coil2 Nerf was announced
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10-21-2014, 03:53 AMVahnValbosce
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10-21-2014, 04:00 AMRiepahHow exactly does it "hurt" you when content you've cleared in the past gets nerfed? Why do you care so much?Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
Sure, if we look at Amdapor Keep's Demon Door, removing the bees was quite unnecessary and makes the fight stupidly easy, I think they should've been kept in. But yeah.. big deal? How can a nerf of past content hurt anybody?
"Uh, what an unnecessary change for silly noobs." <- that is the reasonable extent of what your reaction should be to this. Claiming you're "hurt" is really overboard. If you hadn't beaten it before I could understand that you felt a challenge was taken away from you before you had the chance to overcome it by yourself, but if you already beat it before the nerf, it really doesn't affect you adversely, no matter how you look at it. Aside from the "I want to feel special" thing, that is. -
10-21-2014, 04:10 AMWelsper59Once you learn how to do anything consistent by memory, it becomes easy. This is true for nearly everything in life. Once that happens, difficulty extends only to the time you are willing to allow for it for anything that you do alone. Or in the case of things that require others to be involved, the time AND the capability of your party becomes the only difficult part of it. That being said, it's easy to spout that something isn't hard, but not everyone is going to be able to learn as quickly or willingly as another. Otherwise, we'd all know exactly how to do literally everything in life, since once we learn it, it's easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack
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10-21-2014, 04:11 AMpolyhedral
You would think they'd be happy it would HELP the other 7 people WIN the fight, instead of crying about a "nerf" that should be called a "fix", or, a "solution".
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10-21-2014, 04:11 AMVahnValbosceIt is a Big Deal actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riepah
It presents a negative idea to the development team, that somehow they are creating raid content in the first place that is somehow WAYYYYY too difficult for the FFXIV playerbase. So then when developing future content, they will ALWAYS ease up on mechanics. Pretty soon the "past content Nerf" will expand into "current content Nerf". Don't think this will happen? If this Nerf Trend continues, you can bet top dollar that it WILL HAPPEN.
People enjoy challenging content, that is the truth. Because 1 person can't overcome the challenge and they constantly wipe the raid, instead nerf the fight for 7 other party members??? No thanks. That is BACKWARDS progression at its finest.
THIS IS NOT FFXI,Quote:
Originally Posted by polyhedral
It's 2015 ALMOST and an entirely different game. Impossible Mechanics are different than challenging mechanics. TURN 9 is Challenging, Turn 9 is NOT IMPOSSIBLE.
And on that note: I'm done with this Forum Topic, I figured out it's basically just a bunch of people asking for content to get nerfed because -> they are the 1 person that wipes the raid -> they are too busy to play this game -> they don't want to work on something and progress with other people -> they want to be able to carry people, or don't have the patience for them to learn.
So their solution is: Make the game suck by Nerfing Content! ... Yea, great logic. -
10-21-2014, 04:13 AMpolyhedral
Beat AV in XI yet?
Easy content from SE, right? Simple mechanics, right?
How many years did it take for a legit win? -
10-21-2014, 04:16 AMAethaerynNice slippery slope argument there. Plenty of games nerf old content when new content is added without suddenly dumbing down the new content. You can't know that SE will start making all encounters easy until it happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
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10-21-2014, 04:17 AMHyristI'll take that bet.Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
Nothing in the entire year of precedent we've established has there ever been an indication they would /ever/ budge on current content.
See: Atma.
There's a very clear trend to follow here that they've kept to in spite of uproar on either side, and they've not budged an inch on it, much to the determent and success depending on which end of the seesaw you sit upon at any particular time. It's six months before they make adjustment. Half a year to cover top end content before adjustments start, which is usually a couple weeks after the new content comes out.
So yes, top dollar? What does that mean to you? Because I would put money against your prediction. Precedent is on my side in this matter this one looks like a real safe bet to take. If anything, they've added Savage Coil, which is harder content that they have not made any announcements to change. So really, the facts weigh heavily against you. Are you sure you want to put money against this, because I'd gladly take it from you if you're just offering to give it away. -
10-21-2014, 04:21 AMAnarnee
You know, coil use to scare me. Never wanted to do it, but then going in there, I really enjoyed the fights and I too would hate to make them loose that feeling. They were clear about them still being hard, but its still not the same. Granted I'm not at the end yet, I've only touched five and six.
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10-21-2014, 04:24 AMVicViperionNo, you're creating a better game for it. Why, exactly, is artificial difficulty a good thing? Why, exactly, is tying raid progress to the LEAST CAPABLE MEMBER, a good thing? Protip: It isn't. No legitimately challenging team game ties EVERYONES immeadiate pass or failure to one person. Which is exactly what the current raid mechanics do, and why they're the wrong direction for any game to take. People SHOULD be able to pick up the slack for weaker members. People SHOULD be able to carry. Winning or losing SHOULD be a team effort, whereas currently, now, the fate of the entire raid is ALWAYS on the weakest link. And that is bad game design, plain and simple, to attach the entire progress of 7 other people, to whoever is the worst player.Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
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10-21-2014, 04:25 AMVahnValbosceOk take that bet then. I'm done with this topic. Nobody is changing anyones mind, it will never happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
You can all continue to thumbs-up eachothers posts to make eachother feel special and then get your content nerfed.
Then once all the content is extremely easy and takes 30 minutes to clear, you'll sit around wondering why half the playerbase has quit and the entire game has gone Free 2 Play. Who will be to blame then? OH WAIT, It must of been those nasty hardcore elitist players that ruin every single game!!!
LOL... utter non-sense. -
10-21-2014, 04:25 AMGhastoIf the failings of one person isn't pinned on that one person, it then gets passed onto the healers.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicViperion
In short; baddies get gud -
10-21-2014, 04:26 AMAethaerynYou're still ignoring all of the people who haven't even attempted second coil yet because they don't have the drive or the time to spend tons of hours wiping to learn fights. Hint: There were more people not doing second coil over the last six months than people making real progression with it. Game doesn't suddenly suck because old content is eased in difficulty when it was already steamroll easy for your static to beat it for the last several months. Stop trying to force everyone to play the game the way you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
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10-21-2014, 04:28 AMShougunI get that concern, content changing to a less preferential way (opinion/perspective)- but you have to keep in mind that the hardcore/pros are not the majority. SE is trying to cater to both groups by keeping one hard and one manageably hard (challenging for those who may not be doing everything right or in a party of people like that).Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
Now I'm not going to say you have no right to be disappointed content is made easier/more manageable but that I don't think you're arguing for the majority. Anyway minorities have rights too, and you have the right to your opinion but not everyone is a Rogue, Hardcore, Ninja Gaiden, Dark Soul NG++++ player. -
10-21-2014, 04:29 AMMerylxQuote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
Listen, the general skill of people who play FFXIV isn't good when it comes to hardcore content like Coils. By nerfing it, those people who can't follow game mechanics, or suffer from tunnel vision, will finally have a chance at beating different turns. This is just how it is. The game is not catered to the hardcore - eventually, even the casuals, will want to explore Coils and see what they've been missing. It's a natural occurrence in the MMO model these days - the hardcore get it first, then eventually the 'others' or 'casuals' are able to have a go, and are given a chance to catch up on content. Yes, it isn't at the same difficulty that you and your static once encountered, but who really cares? At the end of the day Second Coils gear will be outdated soon, and you and your static will be moving on to the last turn. It really shouldn't affect you this much.... -
10-21-2014, 04:29 AMCramerGamerWhat's wrong with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Riepah
Coil isn't needed for progression.
It's not tied to anything else, 100% optional content - Story Mode Coil is already in the works.
Gear alternatives are plentiful -right now- and equal to anything in Second Coil.
New tome gear will be -better- than anything in Second Coil.
The only reason someone who can't clear Coil would want to is because they want vanity gear, which if they haven't earned it then why do they deserve it?
So much of the content is already directed at the casual crowd, why not let elite players have their own corner to enjoy? Not everything has to be accessible to everyone. -
10-21-2014, 04:29 AMVahnValbosceYOUR SOLUTION: Nerf the entire content to help that 1 person progress!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by VicViperion
MY SOLUTION: You're holding back our raid progression, we're replacing you for someone else who can clear it or actually cares about clearing it. /kick
P.S. Just talking about how content should get nerfed like this is making me want to quit the game already lol... imagine how many would quit if the entire game got easier.
Ok. Now I'm Done. Bye. -
10-21-2014, 04:31 AMAethaerynYou must have a lot of friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
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10-21-2014, 04:34 AMVicViperionYour "solution" is childish at best. Much like your attitude. Things can be challenging without being artificial difficulty, a concept you seem unable to grasp. The current state of Coil is pure artificial difficulty, it relies on nothing challenging. You just said it yourself, the only challenging part is hoping another party member doesn't cause any of a myriad of insta-wipe moves to trigger.Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
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10-21-2014, 04:35 AMNyarukoWThat is so true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberel
I've just helped a friend's FC member clear T5 yesterday, but then again the elitists all hate me on this forum. And to top it all off, those same people want an "no newbies wanted" checkbox for the PF and DF so they can exclude the newer people. -
10-21-2014, 04:37 AModintiusAs for unworthy it was in responds to another player that you so kindly left out it called using satire/sarcasm toward another individual, meaning using their view point by placing words they have conceived about players that are not of my own views. On the second point, If you haven't played many mmo which I <assuming> you haven't totally opinion their you would have already understood this is a common factor in most standard mmo and isn't as a big nerf as people make it out to be I.E black knighting. The hardcore players are still going to have their hard raids while the rest keep playing catch up, but elites cry dalamud if any changes happens it a common theme for hardcore end gamers in any mmo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geesus
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10-21-2014, 04:37 AMVahnValbosceHow many friends will you have in game when this game becomes boring and people quit left and right because they're tired of easy content?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethaeryn
You assume challenging content TEARS people apart. LOL...
Challenging Content Brings people TOGETHER more than it tears people apart. That is the point of an MMO, to work together WITH people to overcome a challenge.
OK!!! I must leave this section of the forums before my head explodes from all the non-sense. -
10-21-2014, 04:39 AMHyristI'm wondering if you are aware of the Stawman and Slipper Slope argumentative fallacies, because you're using them. And the fact that you're generalizing individuals that disagree with you? That really does solidify the fact that you're not listening to the counter-arguments, nor are you thinking beyond yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
My Raiding group may be rocked to the core with the changes of Third Coil, if Third Coil enables us to aid our other FC mates. We flat out waited Second Coil down because we wanted to progress as a FC and Coil Lockouts prevented that. If that's no longer the case, we're going to want to push, HARD through SCOB and into FCOB. Echo to us is a non-matter. We get through content when we get through content.
That said, for those who don't want to be caught a year or more behind due to content gating? This is pretty big deal. I'm in staunch support of SE taking the intelligent route and having a preserved Coil, and an adjusted Coil. So that groups can play to their preferences.
It's unintelligent design to have one difficulty setting in games these days.
Strawman argument, it bleeds out players so that only the niche people who can meet the specific criteria remain, and those who think alike, naturally come together. It's called homogenizing your player base. It does not bring people together, it pushes people away and those who are left come together.Quote:
Challenging Content Brings people TOGETHER more than it tears people apart. That is the point of an MMO, to work together WITH people to overcome a challenge.
It can be something simple as having a work schedule conflict that can cause a punishingly difficult game to be impossible for a player. Basing your ideals of bringing people together on one set standard, means you are ostracizing the rest. It's simple anthropology. -
10-21-2014, 04:42 AMVicViperionIt surely brings people together. All those PF parties asking for fresh players fill the screen, doesn't it? No, wait, they're filling with nothing but i105+ ONLY NO MYTH MESSAGE 1 SHOT ONLY NO N00BS. It's also fairly telling that I never see those parties anywhere near filled either, it's also just 3 players sitting there for hours on end. You're being childish and unreasonable, no one is going to quit the game over any of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
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10-21-2014, 04:44 AMAethaerynNonsense doesn't need to be hyphenated.Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
My coil group for one of my alts has players of all different gaming backgrounds and skill. We just formed around 2.3, and we're on t8 right now and feeling pretty good about it. There are a couple of people in the group who take a lot longer to pick up mechanics than the rest of us. If we'd kicked them early on or passed over them because of this, we would have missed out on building a couple of great friendships that have enriched my time with this game.
Punishing people because of poorly designed content is asinine. There's a reason people also "boo'd" when they found out that FCoB was designed by the same person who made Titan and SCoB.
(Moved this from my other post because you don't seem to actually pay attention to posts once they're a page back. You ignored mine from like 4 pages ago.)
People are quitting because CURRENT content is easy and new content comes in too slowly. There's not enough horizontal progression to keep the players with significantly more time and more drive to quickly plow through content. If you think more people are quitting because old content is eased up in difficulty, you are wrong.
The same things that make SCoB too easy for the hardcore crowd could be fixed in ways that make them more manageable for people who aren't necessarily super amazing at twitch mechanics or multitasking. -
10-21-2014, 04:47 AMAdamFyiTo be honest, I raid for about 5 hours per week, and I'm currently working on T9. Here's the catch; I welcome content to be eased up for people who can't spend hours on end to practice because of limited time or erratic schedules (IRL is more important, people!). Old content does not need to be nerfed to the ground, rather, eased up naturally by the introduction of better gear, and to some extent currently shown, the Echo. Coil has story gated behind it, and I think everyone should deserve the right to at least experience the cutscenes, no matter how long it takes. Sure, you may only get to see it once the content becomes obsolete, but at least it's something to look forward to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethaeryn
Quote:
Originally Posted by VicViperion
That's because people took the time and effort to actually set up their own parties on the party finder. All players have equal access to the party finder and create groups according to their specification, whether it be a learning group or hunting group - it doesn't matter. All it takes is a little initiative to start up a party, and viola; you have yourself a party set up on the party finder. You have to be patient for those parties to fill though. -
10-21-2014, 04:48 AMReplicaXThe Enemy Design Team has proven otherwise with past practice in coil alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
I'm not even taking a side in this and can see why the Dev Team is taking the middle ground again.
You yourself state:
Listening to all your "logic" has really just shown me perhaps you are over-thinking the situation and assuming too much. As I'm sure Final Coil will be challenging.Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
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10-21-2014, 04:51 AMDefendPopPunk
I'm pretty sure most casual players aren't going to attend a fanfest, and they're far from a minority when it comes to the population of an MMO like this one. I wouldn't take the fan reaction as some type of consensus about what we think of coil nerfs. I couldn't care less about doing coil or any endgame but I would still support making it easier for those that are interested in doing it (if it's really that hard).
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10-21-2014, 04:52 AMVahnValbosceThey are NOT strawman arguments. THEY are factual arguements based on the TACTICS of other MMO companies. FFXIV is an MMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
I spent 1 month and 2 weeks with a CASUAL STATIC to cear Turn 6, 7 and 8. We spent 4 hours PER WEEK, it took us 6 weeks TOTAL. That is a total of 24 TOTAL HOURS of progression to LEARN and CLEAR Turn 6, 7 and 8.
1 month and 2 weeks consists of roughly 45 days, 45 days = 1080 hours. 6 weeks of progression at 4 hours PER WEEK consists of 24 hours. 24 hours out of 1080 HOURS??? We were a CASUAL group, CASUAL players HAVING FUN and JOKING AROUND with eachother.
If you cannot clear coil within that time allotment, then 2 things:
#1. You shouldn't be subscribing to a Pay 2 Play MMO, because you obviously need more time to learn and progress in a fight, but you simply do not have the time, due to your "busy real life schedule" or whatever else it is that takes up your precious time.
#2. You are the person holding people back, and you should just accept that fact and work on your progression and get better at the game.
If you think I'm being a jerk about these comments, then what can I tell you? YOU are the jerk for wanting to ruin other peoples challenging and fun experiences by having things nerfed. -
10-21-2014, 04:57 AMAethaerynYeah, I didn't mean that people who currently raid all want the casual/less dedicated/less skilled/whatever crowd to be held back. He just keeps bringing up what like two people said about PF groups failing due to one person messing up mechanics as if everyone wants things nerfed into the ground for that reason alone. The simple fact is that easing difficulty of older content is not a new concept for MMORPGs, and Yoshida said this was the plan before 2.0 release.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
I don't think anyone is going to quit the game over older content being made easier for less serious players. Walling off those players and making it difficult for new players to catch up can cause a lot of problems, though. There are some games I've wanted to try, but have been dissuaded by friends currently playing because they told me catching up would require tons of time and frustration. SE ultimately wants to make money, and making it more realistic for new players to jump in and join friends is necessary if you want your game to continue growing. -
10-21-2014, 04:58 AMGeesusWhat about Atma? They are increasing the drop rate. Was announced yesterday during the Live Letter stream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
No idea wtf you're talking about. Sorta do. Really? nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
As for Savage Coil. Let's take this from the true perspective that IS about Savage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Savage was actually the ORIGINAL Dev content. They deemed it TOO difficult for the current player base to be able to clear. Therefore, even prior to LAUNCHING IT, they "nerfed" it. Now, it's out as a fun challenge, epeen stroking festival for ANYONE to try and yup, most likely won't be nerfed because, it's for funnzies.
So yup. You're astute observation about Savage will stay on point SIMPLY because; they don't NEED to nerf Savage because, it doesn't f'ing MATTER if you clear it. It's NOT for progression. -
10-21-2014, 04:59 AMNyarukoWSE certainly does NOT agree with your assessment of the situation. Thank goodness they have more business sense than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
If you are too impatient to play with other people NOT at your skill level, you do NOT have to, you can stick with your static or you can quit subscribing in exchange. Because SE will take 99 of us scrubs than 1 of you any day of the week. 99x$14.99 >> 1x$14.99.
SE would like you along too provided you help teach the 99 others and not be mean and nasty too them. BTW people can't get better at stuff, if they can't get access to them. -
10-21-2014, 05:01 AMAdamFyiPlease stop. The most you're contributing is giving a bad impression not to only yourself, but to people who run end-game content as well. Different people have different priorities. Some people prefer to craft, and some may like to run dungeons, but in the end, nobody should force something onto other people. I myself have not cleared the latest coil within the time allotted (Still working on T9, mind you). Your posts are quite hostile, but they are without merit because other people are doing the same. The hostility between people who agree and disagree does not make a good discussion. So I suggest you calmly retreat before this gets even more out of hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
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10-21-2014, 05:01 AMReplicaXThat can be said for any player type as far as Fanfest goes. The event is limited in attendance size, requires travel, time off, and money. I'm sure many casual players were there if the distance was feasible for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk
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10-21-2014, 05:02 AMRyuDragnierYes, because apparently most casuals will spend hundreds of dollars to go to Las Vegas for a convention and most hardcore players will not. Your argument is very very flawed, because only people who were that into the game would go to a convention, especially one held in one of the most expensive vacation spots in the USA. Casuals would not care for the game to that degree nor would pay that much money to head to said convention. No, this is just hardcore players booing at something they don't like.Quote:
Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial
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10-21-2014, 05:04 AMsaeedaisspecialFan fest attracts all walks of people, do you think it's only the super elite hardcore players that go? Did you even watch the streams to see how varied the attendance was?Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
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10-21-2014, 05:05 AMXysticI'm expecting world first from you next patch...don't fail... or you may have to take yourself up on your own options.Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnValbosce
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10-21-2014, 05:05 AMRyuDragnierHow many casuals would spend several hundred dollars to go to a convention in LAS VEGAS (very expensive area)? Not many. Hardcore players would without a doubt. Would you go to a comic book convention if you didn't care that much for what went on there?Quote:
Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial
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10-21-2014, 05:07 AMVahnValbosceNow I know the truth. Regular Players get cornered into the "Elitist" category, simply because they can clear content and others cannot.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicViperion
You call my attitude childish, but you've yet to come up with sound arguments, and just result in name-calling. I run an FC and people APPRECIATE the things I do for them and we talk on teamspeak and joke around together.
YOU are the one calling ME an elitist.
YOU are the one angry at the 1 player who can't progress, instead of realizing that its their problem that THEY need to fix, you want to NERF content for the 7 other players in the group.
YOU are the one assuming things about me, such as I have "No Friends" or that I'm socially awkward and a SLEW of other STEREOTYPES.
It's honestly all hog-wash and blind sighted emotional rhetoric. -
10-21-2014, 05:10 AMsaeedaisspecialThat really depends on how you define hardcore vs casual.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
Obviously you have to be into the game to want to go, but it certainly wasn't a "raiders only" event that you're implying. There were tons of people, from role players, to those dedicated about the lore, even a decent amount of casuals, and yes, even raiders. Did you not watch any of the streams? Any of the interviews of players during fan fest?
Just because you don't play a lot does not mean you're not dedicated to the game, likewise, just because you don't raid doesn't mean you aren't dedicated to the game either. If anything, what you're saying is pretty insulting to everyone, because you're generalising and essentially implying the only people that care enough about the game to visit something like Fan Fest are the raiders.