Getting anything major accomplished in crafting requires leveling everything to 50, I don't see why it shouldn't be the same for endgame dungeon stuff.
Time to bring back 1.23 multi-job relic style dungeons
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09-11-2014, 05:07 AMDoki
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09-11-2014, 05:15 AMZoeila
i pretty sure mog ex would be impossible without provoke. you could try having one tank hold both tank mogs but i dont know
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09-11-2014, 05:24 AMAlukahMog EX = 3 tanks (Titan-egi).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoeila
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09-11-2014, 05:25 AMCynricFor Garuda EX in particular, I say I'm sure simply because that's how they make their content. As far as actual strategies they had in mind when making it for something like not having provoke. I'm sure it's possible. It'd probably a huge hassle to do though depending on like you say how spiney hate works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghishlain
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09-11-2014, 05:28 AMNalien
I don't even know why the debate about cross-class skills even matter. There is a pretty huge difference between taking Thaumaturge to Lv.26 for Swift Cast, and taking Thaumaturge to Lv.50 and gearing it for endgame on top of your White Mage.
I'd have used a Gladiator/Warrior comparison, but I realized they'll share gear. Why am I saying this? Because it's pretty ridiculous for me to envision a hypothetical endgame dungeon where it is absolutely important that you switch from Paladin to Warrior mid way through. You'd stay on Paladin and not suffer having your cooldowns reset. Job switching only really works when the Jobs are pretty different from each other, in which case we go back to my original sentence. Both cases of "required" cross-class skills are pretty pathetic in comparison to actually having to switch Job mid-run.
Seriously, the difference between "having" to level other classes for cross-class skills and having to have more than one Job functional in an endgame situation is just too big for this point to be anything but a joke. -
09-11-2014, 05:37 AMCynricWell the dungeon would have to force you to switch jobs otherwise there'd be no point in designing it to allow a switch in the first place because you could just run it without switching and be no worse for the wear, our classes aren't so vastly different from each other where you'd need to have 4 blm over 4 different jobs and vice versa. It'd also have to alleviate the CD when switching.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
In other words, it'd just be a waste of dev time with our current system. -
09-11-2014, 07:46 AMHik0do you think they go dual tank in t6-7 and solo tank in t8-9 because it's more challenging this way? I bet they do it that way because it's easier/more eficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by AttacKat
People cry for more challenging content, this offers that, more challenge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon
Alpha prooved that you didn't need X job to do, but just that people stick on certain jobs for certain phase and that a good player on an "unadapted job" could do it rightQuote:
Originally Posted by AttacKat
You didn't needed a war for X boss and a pld for Y you wanted them because it was easier that way
no you don't use the different strenght of your jobs, you adapt your set up so you can avoid monster strenghtQuote:
In other words, your party better be ready to deal with the different strengths of the bosses, so you must be able to utilize the difference strengths of your jobs. It isn't just about knowing when to dodge this, when to move to the left, and when to avoid being pushed off of that edge.
I don't say 1.23 were not more challenging than 2.x but that if you couldn't change job they would have been ever more challenging.
in other word being able to switch job mid dungeon just lower the overall challenge of this dungeon -
09-11-2014, 07:50 AMResheph
I think that the need/greed loot system is actually what prevents this kind of thing from happening again. I don't want speed runs back at all, but it might be nice to be able to change jobs if you're in a pre-built party (where you can't use the DF to replace) and someone quits/dc's and doesn't come back.
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09-11-2014, 07:57 AMSeraviEdalborezSubjective statement is subjective. Context is important. "Performed just fine" in what? Ifrit HM? Savage Turn 9? Hunts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynric
You can work without it (we have a healer in our alt coil group who has T9 clears without it, but he's also cleared many times on his main that DOES have Swiftcast) but it eliminates one of many safety barriers for no better reason than "I can't be bothered to level a 2nd job". -
09-11-2014, 08:06 AMDwillI second this.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez
Not having Swiftcast isn't gamebreaking if you aren't doing somewhat difficult content. But if you actually do said content, then it is expected that you'll have it if you're a White Mage/Summoner. If people can't be bothered to spend ~4-5 hours to get THM to level 26, I doubt people will bother with them. -
09-11-2014, 08:33 AMGilthasNo it wasn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
Just like now it was the same few people whining over and over at every attempt they got. That's part of the reason they had to introduce posting limits to the forums. -
09-11-2014, 08:52 AMBrine_GildchaffHas anyone tried this out? It's a strategy I've thought of a few times since it eliminates tank swaps and means that you no longer have each tank having to deal with the King and an increasingly buffed tank moogle, but I don't really -do- Mog EX much so...Quote:
Originally Posted by Alukah
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09-11-2014, 09:02 AMDwillIt has been done with success quite a few times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brine_Gildchaff
Here's a video so you can see for your own:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK-BamE2WPE -
09-11-2014, 09:06 AMVelhartI don't recall them saying that. They said they are making a new game and doing what they can to make 1.xx viable till such new game came out. Your fault for misinterpreting any information or statements, not theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
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09-12-2014, 01:32 PMZumi
Was playing some FFXI today with the free week went into Outer Ra'Kazanar (open world dungeon). This the kind of dungeon design people want?
map
http://www.bg-wiki.com/images/3/3a/NewForceArises.png
Anyway its pretty confusing lots of wrong ways to go you pretty much have to use a wiki map to get through it and do the mission that is here. It seems like this kind of stuff is more what you find in FFXI. Also has so many high level mobs you can aggro stuff so you have to keep sneak and invis up if you are just here for the mission. Elevators everywhere and switches, 1 way drops ect. In this place you must get 3 sacles to finish the mission. -
09-12-2014, 02:17 PMBlackHaloJTPardon my interruption from the Velhart and Zumi I hate everything about 1.0 show. Clearly they want everything so easy even a cave Miqo'te can do it. Yes Tupsi you are correct Yoshi said things would be fixed from 1.0 and poof as the smoke cleared we had the opposite. Sure there are things I like new about 2.0 but what exact meant by fix things versus totally 360 change mean? Yoshi even said if it wasn't for us "loyal" fans that stuck by the team in 1.0 (noticed I didn't say spoiled like ARR players are today) their wouldn't be a ARR today. Now I am not asking for a special "Snowflake Award" as people call it now lmao. What I want is a game I once enjoyed to be fun again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
Letter from the Producer LIVE Part XVII Q&A Summary (09/11/2014)
Q: Do you have any plans of holding another player survey like you held for 1.0?
A: At that time the official forum didn't exist, and there was no real opportunity to garner direct feedback from players. As major, large scale revamps were necessary, we conducted these surveys to hear honest feedback, but as we now have the official forum we do not plan on holding these surveys anymore. As we continue having Q&A sessions during the Letter from the Producer LIVE, we make certain decisions based on the discussions that take place afterwards on the official forum, community sites, SNS, and other locations, so it's almost as if we're conducting a survey with each Letter LIVE. As I would like to see what players are concerned about, and ultimately what aspects of the game to look at carefully before releasing content, I feel that it's important to continue streaming the Letter from the Producer LIVE. -
09-12-2014, 02:22 PMBlackHaloJTIt's only "confusing" if your used to FFXIV straight line dungeons and can't afk to make a sandwich.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
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09-12-2014, 04:04 PMBeetle
I want them to release the option to change Jobs/classes in a dungeon like it was in 1.0.
It was to be a blm aoe sets of mobs then swap to mnk and dps bosses down. -
09-12-2014, 05:05 PMskatergerI personally wouldn't mind a dungeon like that considering all we've gotten up to this point are linear hallways from level 1 onwards. However, they need to be instanced if not it will be like hunts ver 2.0 all over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
I'll take spoiled over rude/obnoxious any day.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHaloJT
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09-12-2014, 05:18 PMFile2ish
I'd rather not see this type of dungeon setup released.
The biggest problem with that would be people would feel forced to level up and play jobs they don't want to play in order to get into groups for these dungeons. It doesn't seem like a big deal to those of us who enjoy playing all 3 roles, but there are people who genuinely loathe playing any other job than "X".
The devs wouldn't be forcing the players to level multiple jobs by implementing this type of content, the community would be doing it.
This of course won't always be the case, as generally it's assumed FCs and LSs are friendly enough to help and accommodate and whatnot; but that guy who only has DRG leveled would get left out of/refused by many groups because he refuses to tank and heal. Then gear discrepancies between players and gear could further cause debate and drama within groups. -
09-12-2014, 05:21 PMSeifQuote:
Originally Posted by Andres_Lonegrief
I know right?! Isn't that crazy?! -
09-12-2014, 05:26 PMFile2ishThen everyone would be expected to have multiple jobs leveled and geared. The community would essentially shun those who don't have or spend the time to level and gear multiple jobs from the content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beetle
Party Finder:
X 4 man dungeon
Description: DPS MUST have a melee AND BLM leveled and geared to ilvl X. Want this done quick.
And in duty finder it could be rather annoying.
Party consists of WAR, WHM, DRG, and MNK.
WAR: I'll switch to PLD at bosses for the damage mitigation. DPS have BLM for trash?
(Both DPS): No.
Tank either leaves or initiates votekick. -
09-12-2014, 10:55 PMMagisThat actually looks like a lot of fun, something to get a party with and explore, fighting your way through. With FFXIV's environment details (some of XI's dungeons were bland due to graphics limitations), I bet SE could make it look good as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumi
How so? Hunts were a problem due to ease of both getting to the mobs, as well as taking them out. In literally 20s of a call out, the group could get to the mob and kill it. If the dungeon was large enough, it wouldn't be a one second free gear fest hunts turned out to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by skaterger
How did XI and XIV 1.0 (heck, even WoW's "dungeons" like the whole dwarf area in Burning Steppes, the area in Hinterlands, and the various cave systems through out the game) avoid the problem (I assume XIV did), yet XIV 2.0 can't?
Because those dungeons are level synched and you can't use over gearing as a crutch to bad performance. Level 50 dungeons are not level synched so you can basically brute force the dungeons by having larger armour and health pools than the mobs were designed for, as well as take them out way faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres_Lonegrief
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09-12-2014, 11:10 PMskatergerThere are 20 hunt mobs spread out over 20 maps (not counting B ranks) and every time one is spawned the server is lagged to the point of the mob disappearing. Many people can't even get to the mobs in time before they are zerged down. Now imagine 2-3 dungeons over the entire map and the entire server trying to get to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magis
Burning stepps and hinterlands are not open world dungeons. They are just open areas with some quest mobs and crevices to explore. What you are asking for is a non instanced version of UBRS or Maurudon and the entire server trying to kill General Angerforge. -
09-12-2014, 11:22 PMSandpark
This would be controversial in group settings. The larger the group, the more controversial.
This could work if it applied to classes(not jobs) which are underused as a main. They could make dungeons for solo/duo and pets for an endgame alternative. -
09-12-2014, 11:37 PMMagisThere could have been 200 hunt mobs, your point is moot. With the ability to get to the mob in a single teleport, it didn't matter how many there were or what zones. The "horde" of people would get to each one instantly causing slow down wherever they went, and due to being able to quickly kill them... are able to switch to the next one in less than 30s. Add to the fact you literally got ilvl 110 gear for doing basically nothing, of course it was going to spell disaster. When the ease of gear dropped to something less ridiculous, look what happened to B ranks. Also mind you, I don't recall any zone wide slow down, only being in close proximity to the group of players. The server doesn't send game data to you zone wide, rather in a small radius around oneself.Quote:
Originally Posted by skaterger
While Blizzard didn't name them "dungeons" as there was no direct zone line, they were for all intents and purposes. They were enclosed areas with elite mobs in many cases, used for quests and getting various items.Quote:
Originally Posted by skaterger
Case in point, King Ranperre's Tomb in XI was a "dungeon" yet it was basically a small cave network connecting a couple zones, as well as a location for some quests... basically what a lot of areas in WoW were. Map:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ki...39;s_Tomb/Maps -
09-12-2014, 11:42 PMSessurea
in a game that punishs you for having 2 classes on the one character, I can't see this as something the dev team would ever implement. In saying that, it does sound interesting to me, however.
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09-12-2014, 11:46 PMskatergerHow is the point moot when this is exactly what will happen if open world dungeons are implemented. Do you think that because the dungeons don't award i110 gear that there will be less people doing it? In fact, hunts were such a problems that it is a perfect example of why such dungeons should not be introduced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magis
There were elite mobs, and they don't drop anything special, maybe the occassional green item or if you were lucky a BOE blue that you could sell or use. People saw no reason to farm them, because they already had instanced dungeons like BRD implemented. That is why the only players killing these elites were doing them for the quest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magis
I never played XI so I can't accurately comment on that. 1 thing I do know, at least from what I read from the forums, is that some NMs are heavily camped, which if you are a fan of excluding certain groups of players from gear, then great. Personally, I am not a fan of that. Like I said, I would like to see more interesting dungeon design, but making it a big FFA is not the way to go. -
09-13-2014, 04:14 AMMagisAs I said, the extreme ease of hunts had people gravitate toward them. The ability to get almost BIS gear (and for certain slots, indeed BIS) for basically no effort made them hugely popular. The ability to get to a hunt mob, and kill them in less than a minute allowed for the mess to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by skaterger
Wait so in the above quote you say that everyone would be doing them, but in this quote you said no one did the WoW ones because there was instances? I never said to remove instanced dungeons, rather add more open world ones on top of that. You know... more options so that you don't get a "do either this if you are casual or that if you are hardcore" scenario. People went in there to get crafting materials (ie ore nodes) and some involved rep grinds (the whole Netherdrake mine in the TBC) as well. The same was for XI, it wasn't just to get some item at the end. You can do a lot more with an open world dungeon than an instanced one which is usually just "kill bosses for shiney". Anyway, after vanilla there was no BRD style dungeons ever again (well, I stopped at the end of TBC, maybe they added one later?).Quote:
Originally Posted by skaterger
There are alternatives to most items (relic and trials in case of weapons, hunts, and coil), this would be just another.Quote:
Originally Posted by skaterger
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09-14-2014, 03:21 AMskatergerExtreme ease of hunts? Its only easy BECAUSE the whole server is there when it spawns. No matter how much hp you put on a boss (see odin), it will still die in a matter of minutes at most if there is no way of limiting the number of people in it. From a pure fun factor, it is terribly boring to spam medica and flash on a tank. Yoshi even mentioned that open world dungeons are undesirable because it would be impossible to design a fight if there are hundreds of people fighting them. Mechanics are totally ignored and every fight would become a tank and spank. At this point, it would no longer become a dungeon run but more like an open world boss, and what different would it be from an s rank hunt or odin? It's patchwerk all over again, but this time with a disappearing boss and mass dc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magis
I think you are confusing between dungeons and open world. When you mention the netherwing mines, those are open world areas no different from the ixali camps in coerthas or zanrak in southern thanalan. Open world mobs? Check. Elite mobs. Fate bosses. Check. Ore nodes? Mining and Botany nodes. Check. Rep grind. Check. Another example is the Isle of Quel Danas at end of bc. That had a quest hub for dailies to grind for shattered sun rep, a 4 man instanced dungeon and sunwell plateau which was a raid. Let me repeat, there were never any open world dungeons outside of instanced ones in Wow, not even close. Also, instanced dungeon as it stands caters to both casuals and hardcores. Casuals in difficulty so they can have fun, at the same time hardcores need to do them for tomes (hunts aside). Making them open world would make them more exculsive, rather than inclusive, if anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magis
This game has vertical progression which does not follow XI at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magis
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09-14-2014, 04:30 AMFelis10 minutes spawntime and lv30-35 gear drop, if you mean NMs in open-world dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magis
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09-14-2014, 06:52 AMScootalooAnd THIS is why so many players refer to FFXIV as a WoW clone. Seriously, this game has the potential to escape that damned stereotype and I personally want it to more than anything butQuote:
Originally Posted by lololink
as long as Yoshi-P along with the rest of the dev team are scared to even so much as add some type of challenge outside of "You either dodge everything or insta-wipe"(which isn't challenging but more accurately just annoying.)this game will continue to hold this stereotype.
Due to the backlash from adding atma farming and other mildly challenging content(99% of them being WoW-babies) chances are they will revert back to their "safe-zone" in development. -
09-14-2014, 07:19 AMColt47
It's not so much the fact we are stuck in the same roles throughout the fight or dungeon as much as it is being stuck without any kind of anti-patterns or pattern breaks in the end game raids/dungeons. We can't do much to change what a boss does except burn the thing down faster and to top it off they almost always have some giga-mega-super move that they pull out of their rear end that no one can interrupt or stop.
I don't see why players can't stun Raffelasia to prevent it from using Blighted Bouquet considering we can stun a giant freaking buffalo that is probably just as big. Heck, if people get concerned that the fights would be too easy, they could just make it so using those strats reduces the iLvL or amount of loot from the fight. The end game model they have adopted from WoW and it's ilk never made any sense...
It's like "Why did you give me this sleep spell when I will never use it again after hitting level 50?!"
Well, that and I guess I just like the idea of seeing in PF "Ramuh EX win party! No sleep/stun strat. Greed>Need." -
09-14-2014, 07:51 AMDark-SaviourDid... Did you just imply that rubbish like atma is in any way, shape or form 'challenging'?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scootaloo
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09-14-2014, 08:59 AMColt47Don't know about challenging, but certainly a painful experience in watching ones life tick away as they attempt to grind fates for a chance at atma...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark-Saviour
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09-14-2014, 09:10 AMFendred
After playing in this end game for a while, I agree with OP. The bulk of the game and the current end game feel like completely different animals due to one being very open to running as different classes and the other being ultra-strict with you only playing a single class. FFXIV:ARR needs to be different from other MMORPG end games because its impossible to compete as an effective subscription model in an over-saturated market of copy-cats doing the same thing. Not to mention many of those games let you raid free of charge. If any of my friends' raid groups open up in SWTOR, Wildstar, or some of the other games they play, there is very little reason for me to consider staying here.
Edit: In before someone says "but its doing just fine," keep in mind that people keep leaving and then resubbing when what they really wanted was consistent, predictable payouts. That's not possible if the number of subs keep bobbing up and down like that. The very existence of the recruit a friend option was due to droves of people leaving in 2.2. -
09-14-2014, 09:38 AMFendredNo they won't. They know the de-facto end game model doesn't work because of what happened during patch 2.2. MMORPGs don't go all "recruit a friend" unless something very bad is happening, and a lot of people did leave during 2.2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scootaloo
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09-14-2014, 09:44 AMCutie_McSnugglesI don't understand how you can come to the conclusion that "Recruit a friend" is somehow short hand for " Our game is dying." It's actually just a fantastic marketing strategy, plain and simple. In stead of spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in add campaigns You can spend a mere few hundred on in game items so that your players will do all the advertising for you. It doesn't mater if the game has 5 people playing it or 10 billion, it's still a good marketing strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fendred
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09-14-2014, 11:55 AMDishSoapQuote:
Originally Posted by Scootaloo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scootaloo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scootaloo
What. I'm sorry I thought you just told me waiting for RNG to spit out my prize was a challenge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scootaloo
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09-14-2014, 02:42 PMRyans
1.2x didn't promote any kind of class diversity in a boss fight. It was "Blm is best in this fight, bring 5 blms" and then "Mnk is best for this boss, everyone switch to mnk." Having to stick with one job for the entirety of the instance is by far one of the best decisions they made. There were a few fights in 1.0 that truly impressed me with how much strategy they took (Nael hard), but most of the fights were burns. Coil has been improving with each turn in terms of the required strategies and I'm sure it will only get better as the developers get more experience. My only beef with the system as a whole compared to 1.2x is the combat system. I really liked the slower pace of 1.2x over the global cooldown system in place in 2.0.