Power-leveling is absolutely BROKEN

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

in xi people had to really try hard to get to 50 in a month. in xiv they can go afk for about 8 hours and get there. you are comparing things that are complete opposites.

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Wrong. In ffxi you can get Lv1 to Lv95 in under 1 day. It is called Abyssea party

Everyone seems to forget that fact, and it is 100x easier to do in ffxi than in ffxiv

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

So... someone should do the work for you that you're too lazy to do yourself?

Ironic to find this in a PL thread.

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sry if it is annoying you, but browsing with slow Internet connection with stupid phone is too hard. -.-

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Originally Posted by Nero

1. Its one of the easiest MMO's, where you dont need Skill at all. ( Yes, i played it and it was easy to reach the Top )
2. There is no "hard" content at all, so everyone feels like they are good Gamers.
3. Its no Problem for Players to buy Gold with Real-Money, since China monopolized the Game. ( Yes, there are Players which play's Game for Reasons like that ).
4. They throw out tons of Commercials since they released, so everyone know it. ( A lot of People dont even know about FF-MMO's )
5. You can play it on crap-PC's, which is the majority of WoW-Gamers. ( They wouldnt even be able to play FFXI or FFXIV ).
6. 20%of those 11.000.000 Players are probably RMT's.
Etc etc.

Saying WoW is a good Game, is like saying it has good Graphics. Its just not true.

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Please nero, get on with the times man, Tank and Spank content is NOT HARD!! By no MEANS!! FFXI has the worst end game content of any MMORPG from the last decade, why do people think that time consuming = HARD CONTET! It is not, 99% of FFXI contet is tank&spank :/ hell Hard mode lich king is harder than anything on FFXI, lets not even talk about ulduar <.<

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Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX

Please nero, get on with the times man, Tank and Spank content is NOT HARD!! By no MEANS!! FFXI has the worst end game content of any MMORPG from the last decade, why do people think that time consuming = HARD CONTET! It is not, 99% of FFXI contet is tank&spank :/ hell Hard mode lich king is harder than anything on FFXI, lets not even talk about ulduar <.<

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Im not talking about the current FFXI and Crappyssea. FFXI pre-ToAU. No idea if you played that time or even at Release, but it had nothing to do with "Tank and Spank", period. Wrath and Ulduar Bosses are actually a Joke compared to Pre-ToAU FFXI Endgame and even ToAU HNM's were challenging for the most Part. Everything after that was destroying the Gameplay and the Difficulty. Where you needed Month for a Job from 1-75 before ToAU, it went worth in ToAU and you needed a couple weeks.. after Abyssea is was even more worse when it just took days.

And i never said anything about time consuming did i? Do i have to start talking about WoW and Blood Plague? Which was even worse than FFXIV Release.

Since FFXI is sooooo easy to everyone. Pics of AV-Kill, after Wall-glitch or pre WoTG, if noone cant sho me, leave it please and dont say again it was just "Tank and Spank". Actually same with PW.. First Kill took DAYS. Yeah thats some Tank and Spank.. *sarcasm off*

The terms "powerleveling" and "grinding" are somewhat emotionally loaded terms ... usually with a somewhat negative connotation. Arguments using those terms are bound to get heated, and also to miss the crux of the problem. That problem is the speed at which players can level in FFXIV.

The question that we as a community (along with the Development Team) needs to answer is, "How fast should any given player achieve any particular level?"

Should the speed be an absolute rate, no matter the circumstances (e.g. PL, grind party, solo, questing, easy mobs, hard mobs), or should the speed depend on the circumstances in which the player earns the level?

The answer to that question then allows us to intelligently, without emotion, determine the possible rates of leveling that we want.

For example, if we as a community decide that an absolute rate is best, we could ask the Development Team to have us ONLY earn xp based on how long a player's character is online. 1 second = 1 xp. Now this is an extreme example of an absolute rate, and I'm not in favor of this, but it illustrates the point well.

If we as a community prefer circumstances-based leveling speeds, we need to ask ourselves what circumstances should give a fastest rate of leveling, and which circumstances should give the slowest rate of leveling. We would also need to determine the leveling speed limit. What is the maximum number of levels we feel as a community any player in any circumstance should gain in 2 hours?

Producer/Director Yoshida has given us, the FFXIV community, a seat at the development table. He has demonstrated that if we voice our ideas and concerns loudly and coherently, they get addressed (e.g. zones, Ifrit drop rates, jumping). So I ask that we consider what we actually want, and state it as empirically as possible.

I don't even understand how people can blur what key elements are in RPGs, and transversely, MMORPGs. Sorel, you may think what you're saying is logical, but the flaw in your logic is the joke of even bringing up 1xp per second logged in, or any variation of such.

Honestly, I don't care so much how fast I level up. Okay, maybe a little- I'd prefer it to take a month to reach cap playing 6-8 hours a day(Note: At the very least. Optimally, 3-6 months.). I'd also prefer there to be storyline pitstops along the way. But what I most certainly care about is seeing a group of idiots standing around in their underwear and some rank 1 weapon staring at a lv50 mowing down mobs. Call it a tick.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

Wrong. In ffxi you can get Lv1 to Lv95 in under 1 day. It is called Abyssea party

Everyone seems to forget that fact, and it is 100x easier to do in ffxi than in ffxiv

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You are wrong. You can't enter Abyssea unless you're lvl 30. Good luck getting to level 30 in a day, with traditional lvling. Even with "Power leveling" that is a stupidly long grind.

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Originally Posted by Nero

Im not talking about the current FFXI and Crappyssea. FFXI pre-ToAU. No idea if you played that time or even at Release, but it had nothing to do with "Tank and Spank", period. Wrath and Ulduar Bosses are actually a Joke compared to Pre-ToAU FFXI Endgame and even ToAU HNM's were challenging for the most Part. Everything after that was destroying the Gameplay and the Difficulty. Where you needed Month for a Job from 1-75 before ToAU, it went worth in ToAU and you needed a couple weeks.. after Abyssea is was even more worse when it just took days.

And i never said anything about time consuming did i? Do i have to start talking about WoW and Blood Plague? Which was even worse than FFXIV Release.

Since FFXI is sooooo easy to everyone. Pics of AV-Kill, after Wall-glitch or pre WoTG, if noone cant sho me, leave it please and dont say again it was just "Tank and Spank". Actually same with PW.. First Kill took DAYS. Yeah thats some Tank and Spank.. *sarcasm off*

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Are you being serious right now ? Really ? I mean Seriously!? The hardest part to 90% of HNM and Bosses in FFXI was the requirements to pop them up, and getting the man power to zerg then down while your tank holded aggro :/ Spending days and weeks gathering the items or waiting on spawns for the chance to fight a HNM or boss is not Hard! It is a TIMESINK! Timesink does not equal difficulty, it never did in EQ, why should it be so in FFXI( a FF version of EQ) ?

About AV! He was a TANK AND SPANK FIGHT! Serious question here, what part of that fight, was not a tank&spank fight ? Your tanks hold aggro your dps stand and dps him down, that was the hole fight :/

Oh and PW was a joke, that was not even a boss fight, it was simply impossible to beat at the time it was released, and plain simply a stupid encounter design from SE, and they themselves went and nerfed both him and AV afterwards :/

So yeah now please do tell me again about FFXI boss fights being harder than Mirmidon HM :)

All I can remember from FFXI is long long hours waiting for party. But in the end it was fun. As for FFXIV i've been impressed with the difficulty to find a good LS to have fun in Wutai. Im a casual player who likes helping ppl out. Sadly none of my friends play this game they play WoW which I tried and didnt like for reason im not going even gonna post. So i spent most of my time crafting and doing leves which gets boring really fast. Believe it or not i can be in uldah for a good half hour to an hour and not find pt. Thats why i decide to go do leves. I want a rank 50 which i dont have yet so I or we as a linkshell would to explore some more of the world and kill some mobs or go raid some settlement of mobs or something just for fun. One good thing is that we dont have exp loss. I dont mind dying like in ffxi. Anyways for me PL is whatever. It doesnt mean that you wont know the job or have the skill to play your job but id take it anyday instead of keep
Doing those repetitive leves of hell

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Originally Posted by Issac

I don't even understand how people can blur what key elements are in RPGs, and transversely, MMORPGs. Sorel, you may think what you're saying is logical, but the flaw in your logic is the joke of even bringing up 1xp per second logged in, or any variation of such.

Honestly, I don't care so much how fast I level up. Okay, maybe a little- I'd prefer it to take a month to reach cap playing 6-8 hours a day(Note: At the very least. Optimally, 3-6 months.). I'd also prefer there to be storyline pitstops along the way. But what I most certainly care about is seeing a group of idiots standing around in their underwear and some rank 1 weapon staring at a lv50 mowing down mobs. Call it a tick.

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Taking that long to go from 1 to 50 playing 6~8 hours a day would be on a far slower pace of leveling than XI ever had, and I'm talking about pre-abyssea days. It didn't take nearly that long just to get to lv 50. If progression in this game ever slowed down to anywheres near that long to level I'd start pulling out shoes left and right to smack people with.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

Wrong. In ffxi you can get Lv1 to Lv95 in under 1 day. It is called Abyssea party

Everyone seems to forget that fact, and it is 100x easier to do in ffxi than in ffxiv

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It's not that people are forgetting, it's that Abyssea is a much newer concept. Anyone who played for 4-5 years most likely didn't experience it (myself included). Most of us remember the FFXI with a challenging level curve. It could take casuals a year or more to get their first 75.

And to throw my opinion out there on the table, I don't necessarily want to see a climb that steep again. But I'd like to see it take months, not days. The steeper curve is one reason I liked Final Fantasy MMOs, and Aion (I honestly think Aion had the level curve just about right, before they went crazy with reductions and double exp weekends). Now that's missing, there's one less thing that makes this game rewarding to me.

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Originally Posted by Erariel

sry if it is annoying you, but browsing with slow Internet connection with stupid phone is too hard. -.-

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Okay, I'll give you that one. Didn't mean to be rude. It was amusing irony, though. :)

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Originally Posted by CrystalWeapon

If you were trying hard and it took you a month to get to 50, then you were doing something wrong. My record while trying hard was 2 and a half weeks to get from lv 1~75. This was pre-abyssea and pre-level sync smn burning. I was bored out of my fucking mind and hid the fact that I had a rdm from every endgame event ls I went to after that.

I agree that this game is way too fast, but I at least don't get burnt out on any of my jobs duo'ing / solo'ing (leves)/ partying. I'm fairly sure that they are going to remove the drop party form of pl'ing they have now, but I doubt they are going to gimp the exp rates for fighting. My money is on us not hearing anything about it till the changes are made.

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show me where you got from 1-75 on release in 2.5 weeks. the point is the first person on release got there in 1 month. we all know there are the grindaholics. it may be boring, but there is no disputing the fact that some people stared on doing the 24/7 marathons trying to be the first to cap just like there was in this game.

if it took the full time grinders a month to cap then it's pretty safe to assume that you couldn't do it in 2.5 weeks.....especially once you joined the cap was 75 which meant the sp curve had already been altered.


edit: i am not talking about xi post abyssea nor am i talking about it after the cap was raised to 75. i was responding to someone talking about how quickly someone hit their first 50 on the original release on xi which was 1 month. they are comparing the 1 month on release of xi to the 8 hours you can do in xiv today and stating you could do it in 1 week in xi if you tried and they are comparable.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

show me where you got from 1-75 on release in 2.5 weeks. the point is the first person on release got there in 1 month. we all know there are the grindaholics. it may be boring, but there is no disputing the fact that some people stared on doing the 24/7 marathons trying to be the first to cap just like there was in this game.

if it took the full time grinders a month to cap then it's pretty safe to assume that you couldn't do it in 2.5 weeks.....especially once you joined the cap was 75 which meant the sp curve had already been altered.

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I didn't say on release and the exp curve wasn't adjusted till a year or so after my 2nd 75. I'm assuming you are talking about the redux in the curve between (was it... 40~50? or 50~60) something like that. My first two jobs were drg and rdm done around the time that all drg's were marked rmts. The good old days of persecution and drg comradery amongst the ones that stuck with the job.

Dragoon took me about 5 months due to a lack of love for the job, but rdm only took 2 and a half weeks. It was all the luck of the draw but for jobs that got constant invites it wasn't shit to get to lv 50 quickly. 1~10 (solo) 10~20 (dunes) 21~25ish (qufim) 26~30ish (jungles) 30ish~40ish (Garliage/Crawler's Nest) 40~50 (Altepa + Quicksands). You could blaze through each one of those camps in a day or two of play provided you're hardcoring it. The only reason why people took nearly a year to get their FIRST lv 75 is the fact that you had to take up all possible subjobs, had to do limit breaks, had to get KI's to progress to certain areas, and had to build up gil so that you could purchase equipment. Once you did all your prepwork you could blaze through levels.

I'd love to show you when and where I got my rdm up at, but unfortunately I don't have a timemachine that can take us back before the fishing sytem got changed so I'm afraid it's impossible to show you exactly when / where / how I did it. I just remember how fast I got it up because I was joking with a friend that I could get maxed in a month because I was getting invites w/o seeking due to the job's popularity at the time.

Now I'm all nastalgic <.< I remember when Tahrongi Canyon had stupidly overpriced chocobos because all the endgame camps were in Bibiki Bay, and Sky.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

If we as a community prefer circumstances-based leveling speeds, we need to ask ourselves what circumstances should give a fastest rate of leveling, and which circumstances should give the slowest rate of leveling. We would also need to determine the leveling speed limit. What is the maximum number of levels we feel as a community any player in any circumstance should gain in 2 hours?

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Originally Posted by Issac

Honestly, I don't care so much how fast I level up. Okay, maybe a little- I'd prefer it to take a month to reach cap playing 6-8 hours a day(Note: At the very least. Optimally, 3-6 months.). I'd also prefer there to be storyline pitstops along the way. But what I most certainly care about is seeing a group of idiots standing around in their underwear and some rank 1 weapon staring at a lv50 mowing down mobs. Call it a tick.

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Originally Posted by CrystalWeapon

Taking that long to go from 1 to 50 playing 6~8 hours a day would be on a far slower pace of leveling than XI ever had, and I'm talking about pre-abyssea days. It didn't take nearly that long just to get to lv 50. If progression in this game ever slowed down to anywheres near that long to level I'd start pulling out shoes left and right to smack people with.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

And to throw my opinion out there on the table, I don't necessarily want to see a climb that steep again. But I'd like to see it take months, not days. The steeper curve is one reason I liked Final Fantasy MMOs, and Aion (I honestly think Aion had the level curve just about right, before they went crazy with reductions and double exp weekends). Now that's missing, there's one less thing that makes this game rewarding to me.

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OK. For the sake of intelligent debate and discussion, let's work with Isaac's numbers as a starting off point (since he's the only one so far to give some rates he'd prefer to see).

30 days (1 month) @ 6 hours/day = Level 50 in one class (level cap).
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V
180 hours = 50 levels
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V
3.6 hours = 1 level

When it phrased as "reach cap in a month" it seems reasonable, but when you actually break it down to the level per hour, you can see how steep that actually is. You need essentially 4 hours of free time every day devoted to FFXIV just to get a single level.

Perhaps we can increase that rate? Or maybe have better rates depending on the circumstances and content the player is participating in? Should a player doing caravan escorts for 2 hours earn as many levels as a character fighting hard mobs for 2 hours?

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Originally Posted by Sorel

OK. For the sake of intelligent debate and discussion, let's work with Isaac's numbers as a starting off point (since he's the only one so far to give some rates he'd prefer to see).

30 days (1 month) @ 6 hours/day = Level 50 in one class (level cap).
|
V
180 hours = 50 levels
|
V
3.6 hours = 1 level

When it phrased as "reach cap in a month" it seems reasonable, but when you actually break it down to the level per hour, you can see how steep that actually is. You need essentially 4 hours of free time every day devoted to FFXIV just to get a single level.

Perhaps we can increase that rate? Or maybe have better rates depending on the circumstances and content the player is participating in? Should a player doing caravan escorts for 2 hours earn as many levels as a character fighting hard mobs for 2 hours?

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i'm inclined to agree with his one month to cap honestly. sure a casual will take longer and a hardcore will take less, but it's a mmo and not a race to the finish. i'm more of a believer in a month based on a 3-4 hours a day idea than 6-8 though. either way i would love to see the pace slowed down some, but not to the point of it taking the fun out of the game itself.

I am a casual player and I only play 3-4 hrs every other day, including the weekends for argument sake.

I don't mind how fast you level a character tbh because of the limited time I have. I think people that play a lot have issues with it because they run out of stuff to do.

I wouldn't mind an exp cut simply because it will allow you to develop and learn to enjoy a class, rather than breeze through 50 levels in a few days and having no clue what you are doing.

After 1.20/1.21, when the classes/jobs are going to get completelly changed this may not be an issue anymore, we will have to wait and see.

love how people argue on the subject matter but even more how some try to bring it in threw logic and intelligent thinking, trying to be nice and give options on the subject. it makes no sense to me, you can only have one or the other in my opinion. you can't have a grind and not have a grind, it doesn't work. the world would self implode.

it's like having a cash shop but you can earn those items in the world but takes a long time to do, why in any lifetime would anyone want to go earn it? you pay 10bucks for it and i spend 3months to try and get it? a mmo needs to be one or the other. yeah you can argue on how much time is enough but reality is it will always be to short or to long for many and can't make all happy.

i'ma stick with one and only solution, separate servers or same servers with multiple set type rules to pick from. until they start to do this every mmo will lose part of there players or not see them come at all. having some people grind and some not is not the same game for either, it's 2 different games, only difference is one becomes pointless.

granted it looks like ffxiv is trying to go away from the grind but there will be other mmo's people who like the journey should be able to go to. you can't try selling a mmo as both. it does not work. i'm sure by 2.0 the pl'ing days like we have them now will be gone ...that or a lot of it's player base. either way, there are ways to make both happy, divide them!!

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Originally Posted by Sorel

OK. For the sake of intelligent debate and discussion, let's work with Isaac's numbers as a starting off point (since he's the only one so far to give some rates he'd prefer to see).

30 days (1 month) @ 6 hours/day = Level 50 in one class (level cap).
|
V
180 hours = 50 levels
|
V
3.6 hours = 1 level

When it phrased as "reach cap in a month" it seems reasonable, but when you actually break it down to the level per hour, you can see how steep that actually is. You need essentially 4 hours of free time every day devoted to FFXIV just to get a single level.

Perhaps we can increase that rate? Or maybe have better rates depending on the circumstances and content the player is participating in? Should a player doing caravan escorts for 2 hours earn as many levels as a character fighting hard mobs for 2 hours?

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

i'm inclined to agree with his one month to cap honestly. sure a casual will take longer and a hardcore will take less, but it's a mmo and not a race to the finish. i'm more of a believer in a month based on a 3-4 hours a day idea than 6-8 though. either way i would love to see the pace slowed down some, but not to the point of it taking the fun out of the game itself.

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Using DarkstarPoet's numbers:

30 days (1 month) @ 3 hours/day = Level 50 in one class (level cap).
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V
90 hours = 50 levels
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1.8 hours = 1 level

Twice as fast. More appealing to the gamer that has a day job and/or family. Two hours after the kids are put to bed will get net her a level. 5 levels a week, maybe more on the weekend. Seems like a reasonable rate, no? But should such a rate be applied to every activity under every circumstance? Should such a player gain levels at this rate playing solo? Or should she have this rate of leveling while in a party? What about Crafting? Or Gathering? Or Questing? Should she get a level after completing 2 hours of quests?

Someone explain to me how to get this insane XP, as leveling otherwise is an extremely long grind once your out of leves... I'm still level 17 and out of leves and have no idea what else to do besides grind? Screw that... Grinding is lame.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Using DarkstarPoet's numbers:

30 days (1 month) @ 3 hours/day = Level 50 in one class (level cap).
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V
90 hours = 50 levels
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V
1.8 hours = 1 level

Twice as fast. More appealing to the gamer that has a day job and/or family. Two hours after the kids are put to bed will get net her a level. 5 levels a week, maybe more on the weekend. Seems like a reasonable rate, no? But should such a rate be applied to every activity under every circumstance? Should such a player gain levels at this rate playing solo? Or should she have this rate of leveling while in a party? What about Crafting? Or Gathering? Or Questing? Should she get a level after completing 2 hours of quests?

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Leveling differs on how much EXP you get from the mob and how high your chains get.
Leveling differs also on how much EXP you need to level up (example: level 1, 100 exp. level 50, 50k exp).

What you wrote isn't an average. It follows a flawed logic.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

Leveling differs on how much EXP you get from the mob and how high your chains get.
Leveling differs also on how much EXP you need to level up (example: level 1, 100 exp. level 50, 50k exp).

What you wrote isn't an average. It follows a flawed logic.

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No. I never said it was an average. And it's not what is currently existing in FFXIV right now.

I'm think we are misunderstanding each other. My initial post (about 3 pages ago) is based on the premiss that a maximum rate of leveling that the community is comfortable with needs to be established. From there, the community needs to discuss whether or not certain circumstances and/or content should have differing rates. For example, being in a party is a circumstance. Completing NPC quests is content. Should a solo player gain as many levels from 2 hours of completing NPC quests as a player in a party fighting hard mobs? What about easy mobs? What about mobs powerful enough to one-shot kill?

Those are the types of questions (and answers) that would be extremely constructive to the Development Team.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Using DarkstarPoet's numbers:

30 days (1 month) @ 3 hours/day = Level 50 in one class (level cap).
|
V
90 hours = 50 levels
|
V
1.8 hours = 1 level

Twice as fast. More appealing to the gamer that has a day job and/or family. Two hours after the kids are put to bed will get net her a level. 5 levels a week, maybe more on the weekend. Seems like a reasonable rate, no? But should such a rate be applied to every activity under every circumstance? Should such a player gain levels at this rate playing solo? Or should she have this rate of leveling while in a party? What about Crafting? Or Gathering? Or Questing? Should she get a level after completing 2 hours of quests?

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well there lies more issues once you get into details such as there. i was using this as more of an optimal sp per hour tme frame. if you kill mobs lower than you then you get less, solo gets less, and other non optimal sp per hour would lengthen the time frame. that's why i used the lower time is because if you said 6-8 hours at optimal sp then a solo or casual player would take 12-14 hours instead when it came to ranking up.

as far as the sp it should be the same optimal sp whether you are crafting, fighting, or gathering at your optimal range. i have always felt in a mmo your optimal sp per hour should be in a party or there would be no reason for people to party with each other. i think parties should always be the preferred when playing a multi player game as that is why you get into a game with other people. i understand some prefer to solo, but i do not think they should ever get the same sp as a group. they also shouldn't be punished and get 1/5 of the sp a group does either. there should always be a balance between solo/grouping and i do not know exactly what the balance should be, but they are not equal.

i know even using my lower estimate that hardcores like myself would run out of things to do, but in all honestly we always will. i was more looking at a time frame in which no matter your playstyle you would be able to see an increase in your ranks. i always try to look in a more third person view to see how what i want will affect others.

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Originally Posted by coldviper18

Someone explain to me how to get this insane XP, as leveling otherwise is an extremely long grind once your out of leves... I'm still level 17 and out of leves and have no idea what else to do besides grind? Screw that... Grinding is lame.

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find ppl to party with = insane exp

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Twice as fast. More appealing to the gamer that has a day job and/or family. Two hours after the kids are put to bed will get net her a level. 5 levels a week, maybe more on the weekend. Seems like a reasonable rate, no? But should such a rate be applied to every activity under every circumstance? Should such a player gain levels at this rate playing solo? Or should she have this rate of leveling while in a party? What about Crafting? Or Gathering? Or Questing? Should she get a level after completing 2 hours of quests?

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

well there lies more issues once you get into details such as there. i was using this as more of an optimal sp per hour tme frame. if you kill mobs lower than you then you get less, solo gets less, and other non optimal sp per hour would lengthen the time frame. that's why i used the lower time is because if you said 6-8 hours at optimal sp then a solo or casual player would take 12-14 hours instead when it came to ranking up.

as far as the sp it should be the same optimal sp whether you are crafting, fighting, or gathering at your optimal range. i have always felt in a mmo your optimal sp per hour should be in a party or there would be no reason for people to party with each other. i think parties should always be the preferred when playing a multi player game as that is why you get into a game with other people. i understand some prefer to solo, but i do not think they should ever get the same sp as a group. they also shouldn't be punished and get 1/5 of the sp a group does either. there should always be a balance between solo/grouping and i do not know exactly what the balance should be, but they are not equal.

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So, if I may put some words into your mouth :) ...

Optimal/Maximum Rate "A" = 1.8 hours/level

• Full Party vs. Higher Level Mobs
• Light Party vs. Higher Level Mobs
• Crafting Higher Level Items
• Gathering Higher Level Materials

Sub-optimal Rate "B" = ???

• Full Party vs. Lower Level Mobs
• Light Party vs. Lower Level Mobs
• Solo, Duo, Trio vs. Higher Level Mobs
• Solo, Duo, Trio vs. Lower Level Mobs
• Crafting Lower Level Items
• Gathering Lower Level Materials
• Questing (NPC, Escort, Storyline, etc)

This is a very simplistic outline. Rate "B" right now is a catch-all. Input from the rest of the community would help flesh this out into a level-rate schedule that everyone could be comfortable with, and the the Development Team can implement for us.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

So, if I may put some words into your mouth :) ...

Optimal/Maximum Rate "A" = 1.8 hours/level

• Full Party vs. Higher Level Mobs
• Light Party vs. Higher Level Mobs
• Crafting Higher Level Items
• Gathering Higher Level Materials

Sub-optimal Rate "B" = ???

• Full Party vs. Lower Level Mobs
• Light Party vs. Lower Level Mobs
• Solo, Duo, Trio vs. Higher Level Mobs
• Solo, Duo, Trio vs. Lower Level Mobs
• Crafting Lower Level Items
• Gathering Lower Level Materials
• Questing (NPC, Escort, Storyline, etc)

This is a very simplistic outline. Rate "B" right now is a catch-all. Input from the rest of the community would help flesh this out into a level-rate schedule that everyone could be comfortable with, and the the Development Team can implement for us.

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in a general gist yes.

the optimal level would be the types of things i was referring to for optimal sp. when you get into sub b though there's some issues that have to be taken into consideration

Sub-optimal Rate "B" = ???

* Full Party vs. Lower Level Mobs - these should be a sliding scale. the lower the mob the less sp you will get per kill, therefore, less overall sp per hour.

* Light Party vs. Lower Level Mobs - same as above on a sliding scale.

* Solo, Duo, Trio vs. Higher Level Mobs - this to me should be in a1 because you are still putting in the effort to fight higher mobs, therefore, should get higher sp per kill, but with less people the sp per hour would be decreased.

* Solo, Duo, Trio vs. Lower Level Mobs - this is more along the lines i look at with farming. the sp would be pretty low because of the low risk/low reward issues.

* Crafting Lower Level Items - same as the battle classes scales down the farther below you that you get.

* Gathering Lower Level Materials - same as the battle classes scales down the farther below you that you get.

* Questing (NPC, Escort, Storyline, etc) - this one can become complicated because there are muliple different types of quests available. here's more of a rough outline of how they should be ranked on the type, but these are just opinions.

1 storyline quests
2 primals
3 class quests
4 company quests
5 leves
6 behesting
7 caravan
8 side quests

these would have to be on a sliding scale and the time taken to perform each quest should be a factor in deciding the amount of sp gained per quest.

edit: the issue with putting on a time frame once you get into the second subgroup is you have to take into consideration of a risk/reward system. if i am rank 40 what sp per hour should i get doing 35, 30, 20, and 10 level mobs? you can't put a set rate on them overall because each would have to be different because i am taking more risks the higher the level project i am taking on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX

Are you being serious right now ? Really ? I mean Seriously!? The hardest part to 90% of HNM and Bosses in FFXI was the requirements to pop them up, and getting the man power to zerg then down while your tank holded aggro :/ Spending days and weeks gathering the items or waiting on spawns for the chance to fight a HNM or boss is not Hard! It is a TIMESINK! Timesink does not equal difficulty, it never did in EQ, why should it be so in FFXI( a FF version of EQ) ?

About AV! He was a TANK AND SPANK FIGHT! Serious question here, what part of that fight, was not a tank&spank fight ? Your tanks hold aggro your dps stand and dps him down, that was the hole fight :/

Oh and PW was a joke, that was not even a boss fight, it was simply impossible to beat at the time it was released, and plain simply a stupid encounter design from SE, and they themselves went and nerfed both him and AV afterwards :/

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Well.. not to sound rude, but with that Post you kind of proved me right.

1. Its Common knowledge that AV wasnt beat for a LONG Time, so if it was only Tank and Spank, how is that even possible?
2. You obviously never did HNM's, since you dont know that 90% of the Pre-ToAU HNM's were not Item-Popforced.
3. I still did not talk about Timeconsuming, since waiting for a Pop has nothing to do with the Fight itself.
4. By your logic every Fight is Tank and Spank, so basically all of the MMO's are Tank and Spank.
5. Did you ever fight AV, Jorm, Vrtra, etc? Or are you just "assuming"?

Quote:

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So yeah now please do tell me again about FFXI boss fights being harder than Mirmidon HM

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Meh...

Phase 1:

TANK AND SPANK <--- There you go.

Phase 2:

TANK AND SPANK + Curespam

Phase 3:

TANK AND SPANK + Kiting

Phase 4:

TANK AND SPANK + Mix of the previous Phases.

So.. i guess you are right. Those fight are really not Tank and Spank. :) And like i said before, WoW vs. FFXI are always ridicilious Discussion, so we should Stop here and Focus on the Topic. Which is FFXIV-Powerleveling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

edit: the issue with putting on a time frame once you get into the second subgroup is you have to take into consideration of a risk/reward system. if i am rank 40 what sp per hour should i get doing 35, 30, 20, and 10 level mobs? you can't put a set rate on them overall because each would have to be different because i am taking more risks the higher the level project i am taking on.

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I understand what you are saying about risk/reward. But what's the risk? There is no death penalty in FFXIV. Do you mean the equipment durability penalty? Do you think that is enough to be considered a true risk on the player's part? No sarcasm. I'm just asking an honest question.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I understand what you are saying about risk/reward. But what's the risk? There is no death penalty in FFXIV. Do you mean the equipment durability penalty? Do you think that is enough to be considered a true risk on the player's part? No sarcasm. I'm just asking an honest question.

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the risk is the tougher the mob you are fighting the longer you fight it and the more of a chance to die. if you don't reward the risk associated with doing stuff higher level then people will just spam killing r1 marmots if they give the same sp as raptors and you can kill them 10 times as fast.

why would i go and fight in a group of r50+ raptors in a group of r40's if i can go by myself and just run through a set of marmots and spriggans and get better sp? i can 1 shot the marmots, but it takes a few seconds to kill the raptors and they may kill me(if i die i get no sp at all).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I understand what you are saying about risk/reward. But what's the risk? There is no death penalty in FFXIV. Do you mean the equipment durability penalty? Do you think that is enough to be considered a true risk on the player's part? No sarcasm. I'm just asking an honest question.

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When a player dies he should lose all his souls, he'll then have to run back to get them in order to retrieve them. If he dies in the way they'll be lost forever.
His HP should be reduced and the enemies should become stronger too.

Also, if he was alive when this happened the world should turn further into a dark tendency which raises the quantity and power of monsters.

Oh wait. That's Demon's Souls. But here we whine losing exp is too harsh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX

Please nero, get on with the times man, Tank and Spank content is NOT HARD!! By no MEANS!! FFXI has the worst end game content of any MMORPG from the last decade, why do people think that time consuming = HARD CONTET! It is not, 99% of FFXI contet is tank&spank :/ hell Hard mode lich king is harder than anything on FFXI, lets not even talk about ulduar <.<

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People who believe FFXI End Game was like this did not play it. FFXI was one of the few MMOs that required every member of the party to actively participate. Tanking(Straight Tanking, Kiting, and Blink Tanking) + Crowd Control + Enfeeblement + Stunning + Skill Chaining + Magic Bursting(Yes FFXI End Game requires Skill Chains and Magic Bursts) + Healing. On top of that every Boss had specific mechanics that were not found in any other fight. Every fight was different. Tank and Spank implies that any group can win as long as you have a Tank and a Healer. This was absolutely never true in FFXI.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kiote

People who believe FFXI End Game was like this did not play it. FFXI was one of the few MMOs that required every member of the party to actively participate. Tanking(Straight Tanking, Kiting, and Blink Tanking) + Crowd Control + Enfeeblement + Stunning + Skill Chaining + Magic Bursting(Yes FFXI End Game requires Skill Chains and Magic Bursts) + Healing. On top of that every Boss had specific mechanics that were not found in any other fight. Every fight was different. Tank and Spank implies that any group can win as long as you have a Tank and a Healer. This was absolutely never true in FFXI.

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You're really stretching to make XI seem like it was anything more than standing in place. In my seven years in game, I never once saw a skill chain and magic burst on any endgame enemy.

The only person who and any sort of talent in XI was Avesta. And that's because he was a trailblazer.

Every single XI endgame event was the same. Tank, heal and zerg. That's it. Some threw a curve ball and the Thief had to sac pull, or an army of Red Mages kept a stun rotation. But none of that took any talent. Only an attention span.

XI endgame was all about throwing bodies at a situation until victory occurred.

TO summarize this entire thread:

WAAAA I DONT HAVE ANYONE TO PLAY WITH PENALIZE THOSE THAT DO SO I CAN ALSO HAVE FUN WAAAAAAAA

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zeref

TO summarize this entire thread:

WAAAA I DONT HAVE ANYONE TO PLAY WITH PENALIZE THOSE THAT DO SO I CAN ALSO HAVE FUN WAAAAAAAA

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Winner.

Everyone can go at their own pace. Obviously the ability to drop out a level 50 and still get exp should be removed. Beyond that, meh. To each their own? How does it effect me if I duo to 50 and someone else pl's to 50. It doesn't. Since I got some classes to 50 before exp was put on steriods, should I be mad? No. It was and is my choice to play an incomplete game and I had fun doing it. We all knew changes would be made.

Just an opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Destain

Winner.

Everyone can go at their own pace. Obviously the ability to drop out a level 50 and still get exp should be removed. Beyond that, meh. To each their own? How does it effect me if I duo to 50 and someone else pl's to 50. It doesn't. Since I got some classes to 50 before exp was put on steriods, should I be mad? No. It was and is my choice to play an incomplete game and I had fun doing it. We all knew changes would be made.

Just an opinion.

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Its not a matter of how others level up. Its a matter of a living breathing world, game immersion, content and most of all: pacing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nero

Well.. not to sound rude, but with that Post you kind of proved me right.

1. Its Common knowledge that AV wasnt beat for a LONG Time, so if it was only Tank and Spank, how is that even possible?
2. You obviously never did HNM's, since you dont know that 90% of the Pre-ToAU HNM's were not Item-Popforced.
3. I still did not talk about Timeconsuming, since waiting for a Pop has nothing to do with the Fight itself.
4. By your logic every Fight is Tank and Spank, so basically all of the MMO's are Tank and Spank.
5. Did you ever fight AV, Jorm, Vrtra, etc? Or are you just "assuming"?

Meh...

Phase 1:

TANK AND SPANK <--- There you go.

Phase 2:

TANK AND SPANK + Curespam

Phase 3:

TANK AND SPANK + Kiting

Phase 4:

TANK AND SPANK + Mix of the previous Phases.

So.. i guess you are right. Those fight are really not Tank and Spank. :) And like i said before, WoW vs. FFXI are always ridicilious Discussion, so we should Stop here and Focus on the Topic. Which is FFXIV-Powerleveling.

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Lmao! Why do you try so hard ? i mean it does not changes the truth :/

AV- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgIRMTPMPko
Jorm- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftkk-...eature=related
Vrtra- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftkk-...eature=related

All tank and spank all of them :/

Oh and mirmiron phase 2 is untankable as is phase 3 :/ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjzBdfDo6xY

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I understand what you are saying about risk/reward. But what's the risk? There is no death penalty in FFXIV. Do you mean the equipment durability penalty? Do you think that is enough to be considered a true risk on the player's part? No sarcasm. I'm just asking an honest question.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

the risk is the tougher the mob you are fighting the longer you fight it and the more of a chance to die. if you don't reward the risk associated with doing stuff higher level then people will just spam killing r1 marmots if they give the same sp as raptors and you can kill them 10 times as fast.

why would i go and fight in a group of r50+ raptors in a group of r40's if i can go by myself and just run through a set of marmots and spriggans and get better sp? i can 1 shot the marmots, but it takes a few seconds to kill the raptors and they may kill me(if i die i get no sp at all).

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So the risk is a longer fight, right? But isn't a longer fight almost guaranteed by fighting against higher level mobs anyway? So it's not a risk that can be avoided. It's more like a trade-off or a price. "Fight a tougher enemy that will take longer to kill and use up more of your character's resources in order to level faster."

But I agree that dying and not gaining XP for the fight is a legitimate risk, though. Especially if higher level fights take more time and resources (MP, HP, time-limited abilities, items, food, etc). Dying makes a player lose the time and resources spent on that particular fight.

This is why, generally, partying is so attractive. The resources of multiple players are essentially pooled, and the players most efficient at utilizing/conserving a particular resource (HP, MP, TP, etc) draw from the pool to defeat the enemy. Because a party is generally more efficient at dispatching enemies, they gain the most benefit from a reward system based on XP-chaining. A party can keep a chain going longer than a solo player because the solo player only has his own resources to expend. When a solo player tuns low on a resource, he either has to stop or he dies. Either way, he isn't getting a reward during that time.

Which I guess is why some in the community don't sit well with "powerleveling", in general. It short circuits that risk/trade-off & XP relationship described above. The higher level player uses his resources while the lower level player gets the reward.

Regardless, to your point that fighting Level 1 Marmots should not earn a player the same reward as fighting Level 50 Raptors ... I certainly agree with that on an individual fight-by-fight basis. But I'm on the fence if it should be true over a period of time.

If a player spends 2 hours fighting 200 lower level marmots, should he gain fewer levels than if he spent that 2 hours fighting 20 higher level raptors, even if the player would barely tap his resources against the marmot, and nearly fully expended his resources in every raptor fight?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Majidah

Its not a matter of how others level up. Its a matter of a living breathing world, game immersion, content and most of all: pacing.

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Its not an issue of that at all, it's an issue of you wollowing in self-pitty because you either exhausted all your resources, or are incapable of obtaining them in the first place, the immersion and content are there from the start in an MMO, they're not given to you piece by piece, this is not a single-player story, therefor there is no pacing, which brings me back to square one, if you have nobody to play with, its your own damn fault, I will not suffer for it. or for that matter, if you have someone to play with, exhibit some damn self-control, if you don't want to get to 50 there is nobody forcing you to, i swear you are the same as those idiots that complain Anime is better than manga because hurrpacing, pacing is something you control yourself in an interactive medium, stop grasping at straws.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zeref

Its not an issue of that at all, it's an issue of you wollowing in self-pitty because you either exhausted all your resources, or are incapable of obtaining them in the first place, the immersion and content are there from the start in an MMO, they're not given to you piece by piece, this is not a single-player story, therefor there is no pacing, which brings me back to square one, if you have nobody to play with, its your own damn fault, I will not suffer for it. or for that matter, if you have someone to play with, exhibit some damn self-control, if you don't want to get to 50 there is nobody forcing you to, i swear you are the same as those idiots that complain Anime is better than manga because hurrpacing, pacing is something you control yourself in an interactive medium, stop grasping at straws.

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I tried being polite, so you can grab all your assumptions and shove them down your ass. Thanks.
You don't have the slightest idea of how anyone here fares in-game. So when making up all these stories you do nothing but look like a god damned idiot.

No one complained about having no one who to play with.

Try to drill into your thick skull: some (many, apparently) people actually want to enjoy the journey to 50 and not be doing end game at the beginning of the game.
FFXI delivered this. FFXIV does not.

Here's a secret: Pacing is always present. In every video game. It shouldn't be imposed by players, but by the game's DESIGNER. So people who suggest one should slow oneself down are giving terrible advise... one should play to their content.

Pacing is done with a leveling curve, prerequisites and quests. Which currently is so light it takes less than a week to get to end game, rendering all low level and mid level content useless.

God, no pacing? What a tool.

The issue here is about time. It's always about time.

The death penalty always boils down to a time penalty, no matter the MMO. If you have to collect your body, that takes time. If you have to regain your XP, that takes time. If you have to repair your gear, that takes time and the money needed to repair it takes time to collect as well. If you have to wait for "raise sickness" to wear off, that also takes time. If you died in an instance with a time limit, your valuable time is being wasted while you recover, and you might have to take the time to do the whole thing again if you don't complete it in time!

Likewise, all this stuff about powerleveling and grinding is entirely about time.

The goal of the grind is never to "prolong the experience" or "learn skills." Skills are just rewards for leveling up, and they're not hard to use once you learn what they do. They tickle the reward center of your brain to make you feel more powerful and prepare you to be more willing to grind longer for more rewards later (much, much later). So skills motivate you to grind, but they're not the goal.

The goal of any grind is to get it over with in the least amount of time possible. That translates into selecting high concentrations of low defense, inept offense mobs with juicy portions of xp and killing them non-stop in rapid succession. And what is the reward for that? Getting to endgame faster.

Why does getting to endgame faster matter? Because it lets you collect endgame gear faster. And why does collecting endgame gear faster matter? Because the more endgame gear you have, the faster you can collect even more endgame gear (because using the endgame gear you already have makes collecting more that much easier).

So you see, it's all about time. Always has been. Always will be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX

Lmao! Why do you try so hard ? i mean it does not changes the truth :/

AV- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgIRMTPMPko
Jorm- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftkk-...eature=related
Vrtra- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftkk-...eature=related

All tank and spank all of them :/

Oh and mirmiron phase 2 is untankable as is phase 3 :/ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjzBdfDo6xY

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LMAO all of those videos are Post Abseeya.. FFXI hasn't even been a game in three years. You can't site the changes that killed a game as proof of how it existed through its life cycle. Pathetic