A Little Pain with my Pleasure

It was discussed. And it was beaten to death with many 'go play XI's' and 'I don't have time for that crap' like comments that the topic learned not to rear its ugly head again... yet here we are XD

I know I'm late to this party but...

hasn't this topic been covered...

A LOT

if this topic was dead horse, the horse would be glue by now.



So let the this topic die. Think of the children!

You know as much as the topic has been discussed I don't see why people are so keen on killing the conversation.

Asides from the blatant response like "Go back to XI" or "lol-massocists" It's still interesting to see what kind of opinion or option people would like to see. I mean it's not like the forums are abuzz with more important topics right now either...

I like the idea of (others) suffering for being inefficient and inexperienced. Makes victory and smart gameplay at least feel more rewarding. Victory is sweeter when failure is bitter.

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Originally Posted by PimCarb

This may have been discussed recently; I have not found a post lately though. Why not bring back the loss of experience with death. I know it was not a popular attribute to FFXI. It did do some interesting things to game play. People did not tolerate people not performing in parties. People would help you get better. Also that lovely delving sound. I know it hurt to loose experience. I would rather loose experience than paying to fix my gear. It also set FF apart from other games as I do not know of another that had the loss of exp. It is just one of those things I look back on and miss.

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<---(Suddenly has vivid memories of the crazy PK-ing that used to occur at the Dunes and Khazam back in FFXI)

I understand where you are coming from but first of all, I think one of the elements of exp loss upon death was that it invited PK-ing on a level that kept the GMs busy for several days straight. Sheesh, Garlaige Citadel once got shut down for almost a whole day because some higher levels decided to PK everyone in sight all because they were competing for AF chests.

Also it must be said that back in 2004, leveling in FFXI was very difficult for the lower levels due to the exp loss penalty from dying... yes it made you aware of your mistakes and yes it honed your concentration in becoming a better player. But these days, there are several more efficient ways to teach people how to become better... and now voice chat has made that even easier.

The goal of any new MMO is to prevent new players from becoming frustrated with advancement... and in higher levels some jobs in FFXI actually had strategies required you to die often (kiting, tanking, sacrifice or suicide pulls, etc). So yeah, having experienced all that, I do NOT like that deleveling sound. Trust me, I lost enough exp to know that sound and hated it...I was a tank and COR puller for a good while back in FFXI. Need I say more?

So yeah... FFXI exp loss elements should stay right where they are... in Vanadiel

If we were actually building up experience on things even at max level, or building towards the next level past cap when at level cap as a sort of safety margin, then I'd be okay with it. But even then, it seems arbitrary--just another way to dole out punishment--without a premise. If the MMO were based on the world premise of FFX and we were all faith-born, and that penalty much more significant, it'd make sense. Without it, I'm left to wonder why the fruits of my learning/labor slipped off during the couple minutes I was dead before being resurrected by a party member.

Give the game an actual interesting play on Aether and world-premise, where memory, Echo, learning, manifestations, one's persona/mask, the elements and their personified primals, the cycle of destruction and rebirth that fuels Eorzea, the cycle of civilizations' knowledge of these eras before their time is up, the Archons, the unanswered and unasked questions concerning the dimensional shift, etc are all intertwined into one breathtaking world feel, then yeah, I'm sure this could fit and would be awesome.

But, 'til then...

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Originally Posted by Ramesses

<---(Suddenly has vivid memories of the crazy PK-ing that used to occur at the Dunes and Khazam back in FFXI)

I understand where you are coming from but first of all, I think one of the elements of exp loss upon death was that it invited PK-ing on a level that kept the GMs busy for several days straight. Sheesh, Garlaige Citadel once got shut down for almost a whole day because some higher levels decided to PK everyone in sight all because they were competing for AF chests.

Also it must be said that back in 2004, leveling in FFXI was very difficult for the lower levels due to the exp loss penalty from dying... yes it made you aware of your mistakes and yes it honed your concentration in becoming a better player. But these days, there are several more efficient ways to teach people how to become better... and now voice chat has made that even easier.

The goal of any new MMO is to prevent new players from becoming frustrated with advancement... and in higher levels some jobs in FFXI actually had strategies required you to die often (kiting, tanking, sacrifice or suicide pulls, etc). So yeah, having experienced all that, I do NOT like that deleveling sound. Trust me, I lost enough exp to know that sound and hated it...I was a tank and COR puller for a good while back in FFXI. Need I say more?

So yeah... FFXI exp loss elements should stay right where they are... in Vanadiel

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Eh, Voice Chat tends to give certain people a crutch.

Xp loss made people in XI not wanna do anything that was not cookie cutter, people did not wanna explore or anything cause they didn't wanna lfg for x amount hours on certain jobs to get exp. Not every class in XI was omg brd sam or RDM get exp back so they didn't wanna lfg for hours to get exp back if they dlvled or to get a buffer it's a reason why pally always should have got R3 in XI.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Eh, Voice Chat tends to give certain people a crutch.

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Nope... on the contrary... its not a crutch but a method to make people learn how to play better faster. Yeah, welcome to the new century of gaming.

Unless you have been playing with other annoying people who really don't give a bloody toss whether they are improving their skills or not, voice chat (in my personal experience) made it MUCH easier to coach people. The whole team will call you out on stuff very quickly, very harshly... and if you don't like it, then get better pronto pronto or log off. And you better believe that your invites to events will diminish very swiftly if you're not making efforts to improve.

The key element about improving skills on most games is ultimately about being very crucially efficient... becomes even more important when you are having to issue instructions to over a dozen people at the same time. Besides, it actually enhances the idea of MMO global gameplay provided everyone actually speaks the language being channelled.

Prior to voice chats, LS leaders had to be super fast typers in order to give out instructions during HNM battles and so on (this was actually one of the things that burnt out a lot LS officers because this whole process was just downright exhausting).

Point is, harsh exp penalties is a poor way to maintain people's interest in a game; and doesn't necessarily make people better players. Most of the time, people just needed someone to communicate to them (very clearly) on what to do and provided they were mature enough to understand, they would eventually shine.

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Originally Posted by Ramesses

Nope... on the contrary... its not a crutch but a method to make people learn how to play better faster. Yeah, welcome to the new century of gaming.

Unless you have been playing with other annoying people who really don't give a bloody toss whether they are improving their skills or not, voice chat (in my personal experience) made it MUCH easier to coach people. The whole team will call you out on stuff very quickly, very harshly... and if you don't like it, then get better pronto pronto or log off. And you better believe that your invites to events will diminish very swiftly if you're not making efforts to improve.

The key element about improving skills on most games is ultimately about being very crucially efficient... becomes even more important when you are having to issue instructions to over a dozen people at the same time. Besides, it actually enhances the idea of MMO global gameplay provided everyone actually speaks the language being channelled.

Prior to voice chats, LS leaders had to be super fast typers in order to give out instructions during HNM battles and so on (this was actually one of the things that burnt out a lot LS officers because this whole process was just downright exhausting).

Point is, harsh exp penalties is a poor way to maintain people's interest in a game; and doesn't necessarily make people better players. Most of the time, people just needed someone to communicate to them (very clearly) on what to do and provided they were mature enough to understand, they would eventually shine.

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Notice I said certain people? Many people have a tendency to run their mouth when given a mic. When they're forced to type, they can think about what they need to say, and only type what's needed. There's been many instances where groups who used voice chat, lost said voice chat due to say a server outage, and actually did BETTER without it.

People say you need voice chat to be very efficient, however, being properly efficient needs no words at all.

So yes, for a great many people, Voice Chat is a crutch. They lean on it as something that makes them better, only since they choose not to make themselves better.

People need to fear death, in 1.0 death was nothing important, while in XI it was a real threat and people avoided it, and that was thrilling.

I'm in favor of a harsher death penalty, doesn't need to be exp loss, but harsh enough to make people think twice before doing something stupid.

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Originally Posted by Arkine

People need to fear death, in 1.0 death was nothing important, while in XI it was a real threat and people avoided it, and that was thrilling.

I'm in favor of a harsher death penalty, doesn't need to be exp loss, but harsh enough to make people think twice before doing something stupid.

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I am not fear death even though it would cause them crying and whining wanna blame WHM for not healing enough.

My only fear in XI was when in CoP if we fail in any battle then whether party members want to give up for the day or try again.

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Originally Posted by Arkine

while in XI it was a real threat and people avoided it.

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yeah, they avoided it by not killing kirin until 3 years after a safe strategy had already been completely hammered into the ground by focused endgame LSs.

and let's not forget all the crying and moaning about how 'difficult' CoP missions were. so, good players who didn't fear death pushed through CoP before any nerfs just fine, and everyone else moaned until it was pretty much categorically nerfed.

time and time again- the kind of people who are dissuaded by XP death penalties, the kind of people who we'd HOPE would play better as a result of XP death penalties... it only works in theory. in practice they either just wait until content is trivialized or until devs nerf it for them. this does nothing to solve the problem of poor play.

so, yeah. sounds awesome! let's have more of that!

nostalgia goggles are a hell of a drug.

I rather have gear break than lose exp. Gear I can fix pretty quick and makes more sense, losing exp I have already gained feels like a waste of my time.

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Originally Posted by Lirion

I rather have gear break than lose exp. Gear I can fix pretty quick and makes more sense, losing exp I have already gained feels like a waste of my time.

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and here you've hit the nail on the head. while exp is technically extremely easy to get in this game (and in XI now), and while hitting a player in the wallet (repairs) technically hurts worse- the exp loss is more of an insult because it costs us time, and we have better shit to do with our time.

you can only stockpile so much exp, then you have to waste time to get back to cap. buying 10 stacks of grade 5 dark matter, by comparison, is far far less of a net loss of time. and so we prefer that option, as it doesn't needlessly distract us from what we *want* to do in the game by making us spend extra time doing something we *don't* (and shouldn't need to)

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

You're right, of course. I never tackled any difficult content in 1.0...

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clearly. your lodestone history doesn't lie. unless you'd really be audacious enough to imply killing great buffalo like 2 years after it was ever relevant was somehow difficult, risky and noteworthy?

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

...and hence haven't died yet.

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no, i'm sure you've died quote a lot, even on your trivialized content. which may have something to do with you never doing 17min speed runs, darnus hard, ifrit extreme... or even lowly garuda. and truly, i don't bring any of this up as an insult. people play at their own pace and that's perfectly fine.

i bring it up to give perspective, and to point out your lack of it. because it's easy for someone to talk big about things which they have little or no experience with. which leads me to this last little nugget-

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Sorry, did you have a contribution to make?

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yes, actually. my contribution will be to continue to push on the bleeding edge of new content, releasing videos and strategies and DPS rotations and healing tips so people can, you know...

...finish these fights with minimal deaths. and maybe improve as players!

should we discuss your contribution now? because all i see you doing is making shitty suggestions about things you have no understanding of.

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Originally Posted by Lirion

I rather have gear break than lose exp. Gear I can fix pretty quick and makes more sense, losing exp I have already gained feels like a waste of my time.

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And this is what it's all about. Even though the days are still the same 24 hour length all entertainment and media is competing for our time. Nowadays most people don't have time (or don't want to spend time) to level slowly, repeat content ad nauseum, have stupid pointless cool down timers, trek to and through the same areas repeatedly...

EXP loss and other penalties like it is a waste of time. It does 0 for fun, 0 for lore, 0 for content, and 0 for difficulty. Even the people who are FOR harsher death penalties see no real substantial benefit to it other than a nebulous, "you'll want to die less". Die less? How about making me want to play this game less? Meh, for me even waiting for weakness is painful. I got a skinny little window to squeeze some daily gaming time in. I don't want to waste it standing around or getting to 50 again. How much EXP was that to get to 50 anyway?

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Originally Posted by Arkine

I'm in favor of a harsher death penalty, doesn't need to be exp loss, but harsh enough to make people think twice before doing something stupid.

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Like what? Film themselves getting owned by Odin while wearing a pointy hat and a subligar?

That is fun. We need more fun in game. Anything that gets in the way of fun is bad for a game.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

And this is what it's all about. Even though the days are still the same 24 hour length all entertainment and media is competing for our time. Nowadays most people don't have time (or don't want to spend time) to level slowly, repeat content ad nauseum, have stupid pointless cool down timers, trek to and through the same areas repeatedly...

EXP loss and other penalties like it is a waste of time. It does 0 for fun, 0 for lore, 0 for content, and 0 for difficulty. Even the people who are FOR harsher death penalties see no real substantial benefit to it other than a nebulous, "you'll want to die less". Die less? How about making me want to play this game less? Meh, for me even waiting for weakness is painful. I got a skinny little window to squeeze some daily gaming time in. I don't want to waste it standing around or getting to 50 again. How much EXP was that to get to 50 anyway?



Like what? Film themselves getting owned by Odin while wearing a pointy hat and a subligar?

That is fun. We need more fun in game. Anything that gets in the way of fun is bad for a game.

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Kinda abstract term for fun. Its like you don't want any measure of challenge or skill required to play this game. MMOs require people to play longer, not necessarily to play successful. If you have only an hour a week to squeeze in your gameplay, why are you trampling on the players that want more than an hour's worth of game? Perhaps you are the one getting in the way of fun.

I still do not understand why people keep saying go back to FFXI. This is the next FF right. Building on the base that has been established. Ow I am sorry no this has become a cookie cutter of every other game out there. What is the essence of FF? What made it the most profitable game Square Enix has ever made? This is what I have been pondering and yes the pain was part of it. The difficulty. The fact that you had to search out the quests. You did not have this big arrow just to follow around. The fact that you had to look for a party. If you want to solo yes there where ways and jobs for that. In the end you owned the character and you tasted the sweet sweet victory when you completed COP and other endgame story lines. And not everyone could do it. So go jump on the band wagon with all the other cloned games out there. GIVE ME SOMETHING BETTER THAN FFXI BY BUILDING ON IT AS A BASE.

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Originally Posted by PimCarb

I still do not understand why people keep saying go back to FFXI. This is the next FF right. Building on the base that has been established. Ow I am sorry no this has become a cookie cutter of every other game out there. What is the essence of FF? What made it the most profitable game Square Enix has ever made? This is what I have been pondering and yes the pain was part of it. The difficulty. The fact that you had to search out the quests. You did not have this big arrow just to follow around. The fact that you had to look for a party. If you want to solo yes there where ways and jobs for that. In the end you owned the character and you tasted the sweet sweet victory when you completed COP and other endgame story lines. And not everyone could do it. So go jump on the band wagon with all the other cloned games out there. GIVE ME SOMETHING BETTER THAN FFXI BY BUILDING ON IT AS A BASE.

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Because they're using the argument of "If you like FFXI so much go play it" and pretty much ignoring the rest of what anyone wanting elements from XI says. It's a really narrow minded way of trying to destroy an argument with one sentence. Truth is, none of want to go back to XI but we do want to see ARR succeed and whether people like it or not the previous SE MMO did have a great deal of success. Using some of it's formula's surely couldn't hurt.

There were bad aspects to XI, but let's not throw it all out because this is supposed to be a new game. New game doesn't imply you can't borrow. In the years since the former MMO began, I think players have just gotten used to putting in less effort as a whole to get their MMO fix.

Hit us in the wallet with gear damage...? Having to fix my gear was never a money issue, it was just tedious and required no active sort of thinking on my part. Might as well make relics even easier to get so people with limited time to play games don't miss out on them. That's the kind of game it seems people want.

There's a reason no one uses XP loss for death penalty anymore. Have you thought of that? They ARE building on XI as a base, but they are not copying every single element either as that would put them in the rut they've been trying so hard to get out of. Your suggestion is one of those things that no longer has a place due to people having grown past it. XP loss is a cheap death penalty anyway, if you want pain at least have a little imagination.

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Originally Posted by Arkine

People need to fear death, in 1.0 death was nothing important, while in XI it was a real threat and people avoided it, and that was thrilling.

I'm in favor of a harsher death penalty, doesn't need to be exp loss, but harsh enough to make people think twice before doing something stupid.

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Are you kidding me? As soon as repairs got expensive you bet I tried to avoid death....It would have been more painful if we didn't have ridiculous amounts of gil to throw around too.

If it's possible to get any class to maximum level in less than a month, no xp loss at death could be big enough. IMHO.

There weren't any major consequences to death in 1.x which really made it meaningless to die.. Bring back some form of reasonably major penalty to death and you will get people playing a little bit smarter.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Kinda abstract term for fun. Its like you don't want any measure of challenge or skill required to play this game. MMOs require people to play longer, not necessarily to play successful. If you have only an hour a week to squeeze in your gameplay, why are you trampling on the players that want more than an hour's worth of game? Perhaps you are the one getting in the way of fun.

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Imagine... FFXIV:ARR You must be this skilled to play!

Skill and challenge should be required for SOME content. Not the whole game.

And challenge should come from the game environment and mechanics not pointless annoying gimmicks that don't do anything for you and actually inhibit or reverse progress

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Originally Posted by fusional

clearly. your lodestone history doesn't lie. unless you'd really be audacious enough to imply killing great buffalo like 2 years after it was ever relevant was somehow difficult, risky and noteworthy?

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I wasn't being sarcastic. I played 1.0 alpha/beta and about two weeks of launch before coming back in March 2012, at which point it was difficult as hell to play group content (PUG or GTFO). That Great Buffalo you mention was only beaten by hanging around the spawn point and /emoting at a group of Japanese players to join up and like get the kill, as no-one English-speaking in Ul'dah had been interested in helping out for days.

So no, I wasn't being stupid and suggesting that Great Buffalo was hard content. It took a party of seven players (one of whom was myself, who could barely communicate with the rest of the team) and was a breeze.

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Originally Posted by fusional

no, i'm sure you've died quote a lot, even on your trivialized content. which may have something to do with you never doing 17min speed runs, darnus hard, ifrit extreme... or even lowly garuda.

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or even lowly Ifrit. or lowly lowly King Moggle. I've never stated that I've been able to complete the group-oriented content; that's the disadvantage of re-joining a game toward the end of its life when all of the friends you've made have either stopped playing or joined/created an elite linkshell and have no time to help you out because they have their own goals set to reach before server shutdown (because just one relic isn't enough! :P).

I don't know what you mean by "your trivialised content". Are you saying that the only worthwhile content in the game was NVD Hard and Ifrit Extreme? Ok, I guess. The most challenging thing I found in this game was getting a party together, so if you already have a good 'shell, I can understand if the all of the content aside from those two battles becomes trivial for you. I don't think that's a particularly objective way of considering the game as a whole. It just makes you sound silly.

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Originally Posted by fusional

and truly, i don't bring any of this up as an insult. people play at their own pace and that's perfectly fine.

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You insult people regularly on this forum by stating that their ideas and opinions hold no merit because they're not elite players like you. If you don't mean to, perhaps you should review your words before you hit 'submit'. Your original response to me on this thread was unnecessarily rude, for instance.

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Originally Posted by fusional

i bring it up to give perspective, and to point out your lack of it. because it's easy for someone to talk big about things which they have little or no experience with.

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I don't know how me stating I'd prefer perma-death (a topic discussed in earlier threads, so won't go back over here) over XP loss is "talking big". And wait, this is a discussion on death which, despite my previous ironic response, I actually do have a lot of experience with. I may not have Ifrit and Garuda wins on my Lodestone, but I sure did attempt them many, many times.

You seem to think that because I don't play the game the same way as you do, I don't have a valid perspective on the game. There's a lot more to the FFXIV experience than beating the instanced battles and dungeons. For example, exploration (content I was enjoying and completed months before you had tackled it. haha!), storyline, music, economy and standing in Ul'dah to name but a few.

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Originally Posted by fusional

yes, actually. my contribution will be to continue to push on the bleeding edge of new content, releasing videos and strategies and DPS rotations and healing tips so people can, you know...

...finish these fights with minimal deaths. and maybe improve as players!

should we discuss your contribution now? because all i see you doing is making shitty suggestions about things you have no understanding of.

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Purposeful misunderstanding? I was referring to a contribution to this thread's topic, not to the community as a whole. But, as you brought it up, I've never seen any videos with your character in or read any strategies that you may have posted, so they can't have been that relevant.

Whereas you're fully entitled to think my suggestion is shitty (a number of people did in the other thread too), it is rather foolish of you to assume I have no understanding of the implications of penalties for character death. Like the majority of people posting here, FFXIV is not the only game I've played^^

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Originally Posted by PimCarb

There are some real opinions on the issue it seems. I have felt that the idea of gear damage has favored the gil sellers to some degree. Yes it has given the crafters more to do and I enjoy that aspect. What about giving a choice of exp or gear damage?

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Paying gil to repair gear is far better option than exp loss/deleveling. Gil is tradable, however exp is not. We will have 24 man raiding in ARR can you imagine if 3 people deleveled after a wipe. It will pretty much stop or delay raiding for the night. However if 3 players run out of gil someone from the raid can just give the poor players some gil to repair then the group can continue raiding. I remember from WoW we had guild bank repair where anyone can repair using gold from bank, members would donate to the pool of gold in the guild bank.

Having a choice between exp loss or gear damage will not be seamless, I see it as an odd thing to implement and be odd for immersion.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Imagine... FFXIV:ARR You must be this skilled to play!

Skill and challenge should be required for SOME content. Not the whole game.

And challenge should come from the game environment and mechanics not pointless annoying gimmicks that don't do anything for you and actually inhibit or reverse progress

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Your gimmicks are my mechanics, case in point, "game environment," most people would call that a gimmick since players only need to figure out where not to stand or where to run through, and any subsequent challenge or danger from the environment is gone, plastered all over the internet with strategies and videos.

When you die, you revive at your home point, or your residence, want to know why you can't revive at the very spot you died at? Because it screws with any sense of difficulty and teamwork in the name of convenience. The reason people clear content so quick in this game isn't solely on skill, but they can throw themselves at it ad nauseum, which is short term fun, but long term aggravating when you are looking for content that everyone else has done already and you are SOL without a social ls (1.0s Toto Rak being a fine example of this).

But why this sudden aversion to having an response to poor gameplay? Soon you get your weapon, your friends get bored, and you're off to
Something else. MMOs thrive on having these experiences be longer and with more attachment than the average game, not less. Would you pay 100$+ a year for an rpg with the same length as Platinuming a offline PS3 RPG for 40-60$?

Since people are being narky over the EXP topic~

Give weakness/brink of death to people even if they have been raised by a WHM. (Why they let you die with no penalty if someone raises you is beyond me)..
Reduce their movement speed for a minute or so.
Double all ability recast times.
Slow auto-attack speed.

Weakness in XI was enough to make you not want to die. Weakness in XIV had little to no impact.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Weakness in XI was enough to make you not want to die. Weakness in XIV had little to no impact.

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This. Not to mention i't's an absolute cake walk in XIV to obtain EXP.

I think this is a really good idea OP. EXP loss/de-lvl on death would prolly fit in pretty well here (even moreso than in XI) since there seems to be an abundance of easy and fast EXP gain. It would help to encourage better strats, and also give more purpose to what others might consider more trivialized content (pt grinding, quest grinding, dungeon grinding, pick your poison..). Also it's just something that isn't used often, so can serve as another possible idea to set ARR apart.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Your gimmicks are my mechanics, case in point, "game environment," most people would call that a gimmick since players only need to figure out where not to stand or where to run through, and any subsequent challenge or danger from the environment is gone, plastered all over the internet with strategies and videos.

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Not even remotely true. There's a humongous gap between reading or watching someone play and doing it yourself. Strategy and difficulty need to be added in the gameplay aspect not after a wipe.Death penalty is a cheap nonsolution.

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When you die, you revive at your home point, or your residence, want
to know why you can't revive at the very spot you died at? Because it screws with any sense of difficulty and teamwork in the name of convenience. The reason people clear content so quick in this game isn't solely on skill, but they can throw themselves at it ad nauseum, which is short term fun, but long term aggravating when you are looking for content that everyone else has done already and you are SOL without a social ls (1.0s Toto Rak being a fine example of this).

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Death penalties have little to do witj skill linkshells or why people don't do content. Its a bandaid for a lack of difficulty and adds none. Exp loss would have serious consequences for groups out raiding and would hamstring smaller parties that coul want to do things like Totorak. And what are you talking about clearing cotent too quick? MAYbe you should ask yourself whats taking you so long?

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But why this sudden aversion to having an response to poor gameplay? Soon you get your weapon, your friends get bored, and your off to
Something else. MMOs thrive on having these experiences be longer and with more attachment than the average game, not less. Would you pay 100$+ a year for an rpg with the same length as Platinuming a offline PS3 RPG for 40-60$?

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Boredom is a killer in mmos but so is frustration. Frustrating aspects need to be minimal.


I do my thing get my weapon but if I die and lose a level and can't use it or lose the weapon due to some pointless death penalty you bet I'm off to do something else

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Originally Posted by fusional

yes, actually. my contribution will be to continue to push on the bleeding edge of new content, releasing videos and strategies and DPS rotations and healing tips so people can, you know...

...finish these fights with minimal deaths. and maybe improve as players!

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For the record. That's NOT a contribution.. That's what YOU do because YOU want to do it. That's what YOU do because YOU prefer doing that to anything else... YOU choose to commit your time to playing content for hours on end right after it releases (occasionally) because you simply enjoy doing it. YOU team up with like-minded players who also live for being the first one to complete content in an online fantasy world. YOU live for your bragging rights and claiming you created w/e strategy. Which, also for the record, isn't a big accomplishment in the first place.. you just HAPPEN to have alot of free time on your hands, period.

If you wanted to make a contribution, you'd go along and beat the content WITHOUT blabbing whatever strategy your LS came up with all over the interwebs effectively making it a piece of cake to take the challenge out of the encounter.. Giving ppl the answers isn't a contribution, it's just what your type of shells like to do.

Therefore, if you want to play a game for a helluva lot longer than most ppl have the time for, or simply care to, then do so... But keep the attitude to yourself.. no one else cares.

It's pretty easy to respect the more hardcore players who know how to keep their foot outta their mouth and just want to offer their opinion based on their own experiences, but sometimes you go off on tangents thinking your some sorta gift to the gaming world..

At the end of the day, your 'greater than thou' attitude is unwarranted and the reason why most ppl ignore everything you 'claim' on these forums.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

random stuff about anti-penalty etc

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So you are saying that you don't think there should be ANY death penalty at all? You die during a leve quest, return to the aether crystal, run over and kill the same mob that just killed you 10 seconds later?

Sorry but no.

How is it a band-aid for a lack of difficulty? If you die, then surely something must be remotely difficult to you. A death penalty should encourage you not to die, to improve, to learn from bad decisions, and hopefully next time you do that same fight you are less likely to die from that. A kid steals a cookie from the jar, do you leave that jar where it was and let them do it again, or do you either give them a slap on the wrist/move the cookie jar to a more difficult place and discourage them from doing it again?

If there is no penalty for your actions then there is no reason not to do it again, and death in a game is a negative action.. Why would you encourage someone to throw themselves at a monster and die until they win? That hardly promotes a "skillful" or "challenging" game with no drawbacks.

*edit*

Guys this isn't an epeen competition about who has beaten what content.. I would suggest removing that ego for a while and come up with something constructive.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Not even remotely true. There's a humongous gap between reading or watching someone play and doing it yourself. Strategy and difficulty need to be added in the gameplay aspect not after a wipe.Death penalty is a cheap nonsolution.


Death penalties have little to do witj skill linkshells or why people don't do content. Its a bandaid for a lack of difficulty and adds none. Exp loss would have serious consequences for groups out raiding and would hamstring smaller parties that coul want to do things like Totorak. And what are you talking about clearing cotent too quick? MAYbe you should ask yourself whats taking you so long?


Boredom is a killer in mmos but so is frustration. Frustrating aspects need to be minimal.


I do my thing get my weapon but if I die and lose a level and can't use it or lose the weapon due to some pointless death penalty you bet I'm off to do something else

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"pointless death penalties" or your pointless deaths? Because your dying certainly impedes the gameplay of other players.

You want raiding to go all day, work to get into that position. Don't pad the walls and turn the game into some corridor to only your favored instance of gameplay(endgame raiding) because you think everything else is "pointless". That destroys a hell of a lot more of the game than any reasonable drop in exp.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

I do my thing get my weapon but if I die and lose a level and can't use it or lose the weapon due to some pointless death penalty you bet I'm off to do something else

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Except for that this is XIV (and not XI), and we acquire EXP all the time. It would be very hard, if not impossible, to delevel during a dungeon/raid as you would be acquiring EXP at a much much MUCH faster rate than you'd be losing it.. Unless of course your just dieing over and over and over and over at the beginning.. in which case I'd think the system would be working as intended. Even if you do de-lvl, the very next batch of mobs pulled could re-lvl you. For primals, you'd only have the possibilty of a de-lvl if, again, you were wiping over and over and over, in which case it's working as intended again. And while your out farming more of the pop item (tapers/etc), you'd also be reestablishing your EXP buffer. As I said before, I think this death penalty system could fit in pretty easily with XIV.

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Originally Posted by Exn

It would be very hard, if not impossible, to delevel during a dungeon/raid as you would be acquiring EXP at a much much MUCH faster rate than you'd be losing it.. Unless of course your just dieing over and over and over and over at the beginning.. in which case I'd think the system would be working as intended.

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After clearing trash you will be fighting a boss. If it's a new boss you have to work out a strategy to beat can take many attempts. If players start deleveling it's pretty much end of the raid. This would be very frustrating and some people will blame others for not getting enough exp before raid.

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Originally Posted by Pseudopsia

After clearing trash you will be fighting a boss. If it's a new boss you have to work out a strategy to beat can take many attempts. If players start deleveling it's pretty much end of the raid. This would be very frustrating and some people will blame others for not getting enough exp before raid.

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Considering the entry requirements for instanced end game content is 45+ and the cap is 50, I would find it hard to believe someone would dlvl 5 times. Spamming a boss (since there has been confirmed to have no time limit in dungeons) over and over with no penalty isn't exactly challenging. That sort of behaviour should definitely be discouraged - and there are no true ways of doing this without offloading some form of penalty.

The fact that instanced dungeons will no longer have a time limit, just makes this an even bigger cakewalk.

(Sorry if its been said already, 12 pages of bickering is a lot to go through)

What would the possibility of having a set of servers listed as "Hardcore" it would need to have

- No exp rewards for quests
- Exp loss on death, even de-level
- Animation lock

That should make the "hardcore" crowd happy? Right? If not please add in whatever other features for a "hardcore" version you would need to be satisfied.

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Originally Posted by Pseudopsia

After clearing trash you will be fighting a boss. If it's a new boss you have to work out a strategy to beat can take many attempts. If players start deleveling it's pretty much end of the raid. This would be very frustrating and some people will blame others for not getting enough exp before raid.

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Dieing over and over usually gets frustrating anyway, regardless of any penalties. Also, people blame each other already for not having good enough gear, not knowing the job well enough, not having enough tapers/etc, not saying anything on vent/chat, and the list goes on and on. My point is, the addition an exp loss penalty will not make any difference on ppl getting frustrated with not wining or ppl creating reasons to blame others. Though, I do get your point in that this could add yet another reason for players to get frustrated.

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Originally Posted by ZakarnRosewood

(Sorry if its been said already, 12 pages of bickering is a lot to go through)

What would the possibility of having a set of servers listed as "Hardcore" it would need to have

- No exp rewards for quests
- Exp loss on death, even de-level
- Animation lock

That should make the "hardcore" crowd happy? Right? If not please add in whatever other features for a "hardcore" version you would need to be satisfied.

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It's not even a hardcore thing though. That's a really awful misconception that any challenge, penalty or difficulty = hardcore. I could just as easily suggest they add "casual" servers where you can get to max level in 30 minutes and can get the best gear from an NPC. But that really wouldn't differ too much from the current status quo would it?(hyperbole of course)

No wonder SE is conflicted. They're getting told that players want 2 different games.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Considering the entry requirements for instanced end game content is 45+ and the cap is 50, I would find it hard to believe someone would dlvl 5 times. Spamming a boss (since there has been confirmed to have no time limit in dungeons) over and over with no penalty isn't exactly challenging. That sort of behaviour should definitely be discouraged - and there are no true ways of doing this without offloading some form of penalty.

The fact that instanced dungeons will no longer have a time limit, just makes this an even bigger cakewalk.

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When there are harder raids deleveling once will stop the raid because everyone should be equipped with lv 50 gear. Deleveling once you will not be able to equip your best gear and the raid may not meet the DPS check for the boss.

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Originally Posted by ZakarnRosewood

(Sorry if its been said already, 12 pages of bickering is a lot to go through)

What would the possibility of having a set of servers listed as "Hardcore" it would need to have

- No exp rewards for quests
- Exp loss on death, even de-level
- Animation lock

That should make the "hardcore" crowd happy? Right? If not please add in whatever other features for a "hardcore" version you would need to be satisfied.

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Don't lump us all into one boat. Many of those features aren't even being discussed.