Let's redefine "damage taxes"

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

Your argument seems to boil down to "because RDM can res a lot, it deserves to do more dps."
If this became a thing, what reason would SMN even have to exist.

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At least more than SMN due to its casting and mobility. And yeah, SMN should exist because there are ppl who likes its gameplay. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Arguscbf

At least more than SMN due to its casting and mobility. And yeah, SMN should exist because there are ppl who likes its gameplay. Simple as that.

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I meant from a viability standpoint. If you give RDM more damage than SMN, then SMN just becomes a caster with less damage than a rdm, a worse res than rdm, worse utility than a rdm, and arguably a worse party buff as well. There is functionally no reason to bring SMN for anything at that point.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

This is pretty much how I feel as well. RDM also gets a barrier that shields the group against magic damage (i.e. raidwides), while SMN gets nothing like this unless you count addle, which every caster gets as a role action anyway. I'm not sure why you aren't including this under utility, but I do and so do most people when they talk about this kind of thing.

Basically, I'm just tired. I agree that RDM could use some love, but the people talking about doing more dps than smn "bcuz its ez" clearly just want their job to be on top and don't actually care about a balanced game.

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I don't think defensive utility or mitigation should lower rDPS at all. That should only apply to tanks because they offer no raid damage buffs. I also don't think job difficulty should impact rDPS, either. I think both SMN and RDM currently need buffs, and personally, would like to see SMN have more utility like every summon having its own unique aura effect rather than just Phoenix.

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Originally Posted by Arguscbf

I know what you're saying. Everyone says how Verraise is a great utility but the thing is a huge DPS loss AND delay the melee combo since we don't get white/black mana. Imo RDM should do more dmg than SMN not because of rotation complexity but because Verraise is SO punishing for a utility and should be compensated for DPS loss. SMN has an insta res every 60s if you spare Swiftcast for it AND it's way more mobile AND don't have to stay melee range to use certain skills(besides Ifrit's dash) AND have personal shield. RDM is the squishiest and the least mobile caster.

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I don't think RDM should have lower damage because of Verraise, but I want to point out it's 1000000x easier to use Verraise as a RDM than it is to use Raise as a SMN because Swiftcast must be used on Slipstream (or at the very least a Ruby Rite) to avoid DPS loss. A single Verraise is much, much, much, much less punishing on RDM than a SMN using Swiftcast Raise. But I do agree RDM is far more difficult to play than SMN currently and is much less mobile.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

Your argument seems to boil down to "because RDM can res a lot, it deserves to do more dps."
If this became a thing, what reason would SMN even have to exist. Furthermore, how would you account for moments where you don't have to res at all?

Also most SMNs use swiftcast in their rotation, so holding it to "maybe" res someone later is a dps loss. Not holding it and slowressing is also an obvious dps loss. You mentioned damage losses for rdm but forgot that SMNs have tradeoffs and basically get 1 real swiftres at their disposal. You also mention not having to be in melee range, and then you immediately bring up smn's forced melee gap closer. Like, I'm not gonna defend smn as a complex job, but come on. Your own post contradicts itself.

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You really wanna compare how many times RDM have to be on melee range vs. how many times SMN have to be on melee range? RDM doesnt go melee range only to do its combo. We do have 2 charges of Corps-a-corps and Engagement/Displacement, its an oGCD melee range skill.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Why are you concerned with handcuffing SMN and RDM? Can we not buff both dps? Everyone not melee across the board needs a bump up.

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I'm only bringing them up because this thread, like many balance threads in this forum, has some RDM mains using poor logic to defend wanting better utility and better damage than the only job (in their caster role) they're in direct competition with. I do agree that non melee need something though, because they're literally calling it meleewalker at this point it's so bad. More than anything I'm tired of hearing the "easy to play" argument when we're playing a game where SAM is top dps, and I'm tired of disingenuous arguments from people who clearly just want their favorite job to dominate and don't care about how it screws over the other jobs within that role.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

I'm only bringing them up because this thread, like many balance threads in this forum, has some RDM mains using poor logic to defend wanting better utility and better damage than the only job (in their caster role) they're in direct competition with. I do agree that non melee need something though, because they're literally calling it meleewalker at this point it's so bad. More than anything I'm tired of hearing the "easy to play" argument when we're playing a game where SAM is top dps, and I'm tired of disingenuous arguments from people who clearly just want their favorite job to dominate and don't care about how it screws over the other jobs within that role.

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IMO i don't want RDM to have better utility, it's fine the way it is. RDM just need potency buffs due to its long casting spells and for being the least mobile caster.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

I meant from a viability standpoint. If you give RDM more damage than SMN, then SMN just becomes a caster with less damage than a rdm, a worse res than rdm, worse utility than a rdm, and arguably a worse party buff as well. There is functionally no reason to bring SMN for anything at that point.

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The problem with RDM is that its res value is paradoxal.
The more you res the more value you get out of res but also reduces both your mana and your clear chances.
On the opposite, the less you res, the more rewarded the group is while res just lose its value.

The value you get out of the res, the more the group is rewarded.
You still get the debuff weakness in any case, that it is the healer or the RDM barely changes anything.
And if you were to res both healer, they would still suffer weakness, most likely leading to a wipe.

The less you use the res, the better it is and vice versa. Which I why I believe taxing it would be a paradox value.

It doesn't help that a res in week 1 (where DPS is the most needed), a single weakness debuff can be synonymous of a wipe due to body check and tight dps check.
Due to this, I also believes res shouldn't be taxed. Healing utility, however, should be taken in account if all DPS cannot bring something to compensate for the healing.
Curing Waltz and Improvisation, for example, can relieves a lot of stress from Healers and allows them to damage more. Which is an indirect DPS increase.

SMN still has its personal shield and AoE healing, it brings a unique value to compete with RDM.
Both jobs don't require more than a few brain cell to play, comparing them in term of difficulty is like arguing that a bland omelette is harder to cook than a boiled egg.
Yes one of them can be deemed harder than the other but both are very basic cooking.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

I meant from a viability standpoint. If you give RDM more damage than SMN, then SMN just becomes a caster with less damage than a rdm, a worse res than rdm, worse utility than a rdm, and arguably a worse party buff as well. There is functionally no reason to bring SMN for anything at that point.

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At least SMN would still have a good toolkit, party buffs, party regen, personal mitigation, mobility and a back up res.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

I meant from a viability standpoint. If you give RDM more damage than SMN, then SMN just becomes a caster with less damage than a rdm, a worse res than rdm, worse utility than a rdm, and arguably a worse party buff as well. There is functionally no reason to bring SMN for anything at that point.

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Other than flavor preference (or unable to handle a complicated Job), which is kind of the point...

See XIV wants to satisfy the following: All Jobs are viable. But they also should be satisfying the following: Jobs are balanced. The only real way to achieve both is too make it so the gap before lowest amd highest Jobs is negligible, while maintaining proper balance which demands that their be gaps based on several factors. The way to resolve this is mini tiers based on all the factors of difficulty (which in actuality is the only true tax). Which be basically come out to be BLM > MNK/NIN/DRG/SAM > RPR/RDM > BRD/DNC > SMN/MCH. This is the only real solution for how the Jobs currently are

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Originally Posted by Arguscbf

You really wanna compare how many times RDM have to be on melee range vs. how many times SMN have to be on melee range? RDM doesnt go melee range only to do its combo. We do have 2 charges of Corps-a-corps and Engagement/Displacement, its an oGCD melee range skill.

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I mean, on that same token I could ask if you *really* want to compare verraise to having one solid res that burns your swiftcast and results in a gimped rotation for the entire fight.

But nah, I don't want to do that, because that wasn't my main point. My point's never even been about job difficulty, because I'll agree that SMN is streamlined as hell. But it should still do more damage than RDM, because without that damage difference, there's no viable reason for it to exist, and it's just a worse RDM in every conceivable way. This is my main point. I only nitpicked because I found it amusing to watch you talk about melee range and then immediately bring up ifrit.

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Originally Posted by Arguscbf

At least SMN would still have a good toolkit, party buffs, personal mitigation, mobility and a back up res.

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RDM would have a better party buff, better personal mitigation, and a better res. Nobody would be out here like "damn, SMN really lags behind on everything, but boy can it walk! Let's bring it anyway!" We literally saw this last tier before the devs gave it potency buffs, and SMN was dumpstered.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Other than flavor preference (or unable to handle a complicated Job), which is kind of the point...

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When I said "bring along," I meant for parties to want them in their groups. No group is going to care about your personal flavor preference when they address viability. It's great if people still want to play the job even if it's broken in a bad way, but we've seen how pf just bans jobs from their groups. Btw, loving how when smn becomes not-viable, it's fine "because people will still play it for fun," but when rdm is on the bottom it's not fine and needs to be addressed immediately.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

The way to resolve this is mini tiers based on all the factors of difficulty (which in actuality is the only true tax). Which be basically come out to be BLM > MNK/NIN/DRG/SAM > RPR/RDM > BRD/DNC > SMN/MCH. This is the only real solution for how the Jobs currently are

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And I disagree with your proposed solution, for reasons others have already stated. Difficulty is subjective, the people who played these jobs never asked for them to be dumbed down, and RDM already has utility factors that would make people bring it along even if it had slightly lower damage than a SMN. In your tier list, SMN is completely dumpstered because now it's just a shitty damage dealer that provides less utility. And MCH is already a dumpster fire situation so I won't get into that.

I feel like I'm just going in circles at this point. I'll never see subjective difficulty as a solid measurement for how much damage a job should do. You've gotta address incomparables like party utility or you create situations where certain jobs get completely left behind.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

I mean, on that same token I could ask if you *really* want to compare verraise to having one solid res that burns your swiftcast and results in a gimped rotation for the entire fight.

But nah, I don't want to do that, because that wasn't my main point. My point's never even been about job difficulty, because I'll agree that SMN is streamlined as hell. But it should still do more damage than RDM, because without that damage difference, there's no viable reason for it to exist, and it's just a worse RDM in every conceivable way. This is my main point. I only nitpicked because I found it amusing to watch you talk about melee range and then immediately bring up ifrit.



RDM would have a better party buff, better personal mitigation, and a better res. Nobody would be out here like "damn, SMN really lags behind on everything, but boy can it walk! Let's bring it anyway!" We literally saw this last tier before the devs gave it potency buffs, and SMN was dumpstered.

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If i have to pinpoint this kind of thing, about being on melee range, i have to be fair, right? But still, RDM suffers the most because of its long casting spells. SMN has Ifrit's dash but have TONS of insta casting spells.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

RDM shouldn't be at the bottom, MCH and SMN should. RDM should be in the middle of the pack, along with RPR. The gap should be ~5%, not 1% and definitely not the ~11% we have now. You just don't understand how balance works

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You're making really bad jokes when you say that and it's no wonder people don't take you seriously.

But I will add facts into this conversation with actual evidences that y'all need to understand complexity involves the fight directly. Back in Stormblood, I was a Melee DPS. When I would get downtime.

Here is a video of a week 1 clear of a DRG PoV. I've put the timestamp to point my point. https://youtu.be/jISBDvFG3S4?t=73 Look at how tiny the hitbox is and look. Hello World is basically High Concept. Notice how the fight is still going and you still have to DPS? Notice how this Dragoon is forced to take the L and disengage and use his backflip to get back into the fight faster? He's still second DPS and that's taking into account the BRD is doing 5% more due to Piercing Debuff from the Dragoon. During that time, the tax to help Melee was valid.

How about we check this tier's last boss as a melee DPS? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9_t7md58v0

- No downtime (100% melee uptime)
- No positional Cry me a freaking river Melee DPS
- Every single mechanic in the fight including Natural Alignment happens in the enormous hitbox of the box so Melee can DPS.
- High Concept which WOULD induce melee downtime by the nature of mechanics has the boss conveniently invulnerable.

High Concept is the equivalent of Hello World. Why is the boss invulnerable now? Because it would suck for melee DPS. So SE designed the fight for you to not DPS on it. This is not only unfair to ranged and caster DPS who are getting taxed for no reason anymore. This is ridiculously unfair to healers who still have to plan mitigations and I can tell you a good amount of my groups wipes were healers figuring out. I had nothing to do. I guess I had to think about Radiant Aegis :pepelaugh:

So let's redefine DPS in this fight.
Caster DPS: A DPS that has to plan their movement during uptime and mechanics. Summoners gets the excuse they are basically a physical ranged DPS with 4 casts per minute.
Ranged DPS: A DPS that has infinite mobility.
Melee DPS: A DPS that has infinite mobility with a 10% damage buff over Ranged and Caster.

And y'all talking how SMN and MCH should do trash damage because they are brain dead? Look at this Ninja. This was a target dummy fight for him. I don't really care if you're saying they press a lot more buttons than other jobs. So does Machinist? There is no more complexity in fights for melee DPS. There is no more difficulty. Melee DPS is just a ranged physical DPS that doesn't go on the backrow.

I'll go even further and beyond. https://xivanalysis.com/fflogs/VmgJQXdBHFbNPWcK/7 This is their week 1 clear xivanalysis. They have purposefully delayed their last buff window for the Summoner who dropped Phoenix before Ego Death and when they got the buff, the SMN went and quickened his primal summons to get Bahamut ASAP in the buff window:

https://i.imgur.com/u7Q8wHZ.png

They got the clear with 1 death. By doing that, the SMN got a final Phoenix which was a free 1300 potency oGCD. The result of them making this choice was definitely not "brain dead". They gave it a lot of thoughts and SMN truly shine on those 1/2 minutes buff windows. This shows one thing. It doesn't matter how smooth and easy a rotation is on a target dummy. What defines a big part of the complexity of a rotation is the fight design. The fight designs have been making it so friendly to melee DPS that it makes it really easy for them. People would like to make you think that MCH and SMN are brain dead. "Look at their stupid silly rotation! Mine is harder!" They definitely will omit to say that thanks to this optimization, that group cleared week 1 P8S with a death.

So, yeah, I firmly believe all casters and ranged DPS need to be uplifted to melee DPS with a 2% to 3% difference. If you feel this is wrong, you are one of the following;
- You don't raid seriously and you have no idea what you're talking about but you have the right to post your opinion here.
- You secretly hate the jobs you want to see at the bottom. This is especially true to a few Red Mage mains that are tired to always be behind SMN and they have a new bullet called "SMN is easy compared to RDM"
- You are biased toward a role. Many Melee DPS wants to remain the DPS King role.
- You have no knowledge of the actual job you are criticizing
- You are a one trick player

Take Firemage for example. He only plays RDM. He doesn't play SMN & BLM and yet he gives himself the right to say SMN/MCH is doing no damage. He has no knowledge of those jobs, he didn't even know you could work around the rotation that this week 1 group I posted did. He's very biased to be playing RDM only. I'm sorry dude, I can't take you seriously. You don't have enough experience to make such claim and while you're free to post your opinions, SE may look at them and that's dangerous. If you're looking for RDM to deal more DPS, then you should target more specific reasons why RDM is doing lower damage: raise.

I've always said that difficulty tax was a bull idea, its no less bull now that RDM is "harder than Summoner" than it was for the four years I've been told it deserves to be weak because its "more mobile and less complex than smn/blm."

Aikaal is right. Everyone needs to be lifted up and the gap closed. Any finer details in balance can be looked at and solved later, the problem right now is they needed to nerf a fight because they foresaw that current job balance was not acceptable and making a damage check that tight revealed it to the world.

We can have entire discussions about the power of "spammable" raise vs the power of essentially having a second phys ranged that has a raise, or who needs less braincells than who to push a button and see pretty lights for that glorious neuron activation but bottom line: that cliff between melee/blm and everyone else? Its still a problem for everyone else. Then in 7.0 the problem of raise should be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

When I said "bring along," I meant for parties to want them in their groups. No group is going to care about your personal flavor preference when they address viability. It's great if people still want to play the job even if it's broken in a bad way, but we've seen how pf just bans jobs from their groups. Btw, loving how when smn becomes not-viable, it's fine "because people will still play it for fun," but when rdm is on the bottom it's not fine and needs to be addressed immediately.

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Except that if had bothered to read anything I've been saying you'd see that viability would be a near non issue. You realize that if things were properly balanced that the DPS difference would be ~500 instead of the current 1000+ between lowest to highest ceiling on DPS. When things are that close together the only time you'd care about the absolute best would be at the highest of the high end and they're already building around meta

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

And I disagree with your proposed solutioni

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Your disagreement is irrelevant. I have cited what proper balance IS. And difficulty is not subjective, to say that is to either be uneducated or lie. Pick which

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

So, yeah, I firmly believe all casters and ranged DPS need to be uplifted to melee DPS with a 2% to 3% difference. If you feel this is wrong, you are one of the following;
- You don't raid seriously and you have no idea what you're talking about but you have the right to post your opinion here.
- You secretly hate the jobs you want to see at the bottom. This is especially true to a few Red Mage mains that are tired to always be behind SMN and they have a new bullet called "SMN is easy compared to RDM"
- You are biased toward a role. Many Melee DPS wants to remain the DPS King role.
- You have no knowledge of the actual job you are criticizing
- You are a one trick player

Take Firemage for example. He only plays RDM. He doesn't play SMN & BLM and yet he gives himself the right to say SMN/MCH is doing no damage. He has no knowledge of those jobs, he didn't even know you could work around the rotation that this week 1 group I posted did. He's very biased to be playing RDM only. I'm sorry dude, I can't take you seriously. You don't have enough experience to make such claim and while you're free to post your opinions, SE may look at them and that's dangerous. If you're looking for RDM to deal more DPS, then you should target more specific reasons why RDM is doing lower damage: raise.

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Let's see I'm none of those things, so I guess your logic is flawed, not surprised though. RDM is objectively harder than each phys ranged and SMN to play. Hence why it shouldn't be at the problem. Raising is already taxed, by a loss of what equates to over 400 potency each time, enough is enough

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Let's see I'm none of those things, so I guess your logic is flawed, not surprised though. RDM is objectively harder than each phys ranged and SMN to play. Hence why it shouldn't be at the problem. Raising is already taxed, by a loss of what equates to over 400 potency each time, enough is enough

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Take it with a grain of salt but https://www.fflogs.com/character/na/.../firemage%20li

Only RDM clears on savage for Stormblood, Shadowbringers and Endwalker. You definitely fit RDM one trick player. That also falls down that you have no knowledge for other jobs. You only want RDM to be good over others. You have opinions and you're biased which mean you are not contributing to the balance issues we're facing. It does suck your one job you play isn't performing right now but that doesn't give you the right to trick others to believe other jobs deserve worse.

Feel free to look at mine. https://www.fflogs.com/character/na/...0leyma#zone=44

Posted it on the previous content to show I logged on all 3 caster DPS. You can check I don't have TEA clear but I did clear DSR on RDM. I've also played Tank during ShB and I was a main melee DPS in Stormblood.

As an edit; I would point any of those out if you weren't so stubborn into believe that you're right when you clearly lack the basic knowledge. You have a lot of hot takes but nothing to back them up.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Take it with a grain of salt but https://www.fflogs.com/character/na/.../firemage%20li

Only RDM clears on savage for Stormblood, Shadowbringers and Endwalker. You definitely fit RDM one trick player. That also falls down that you have no knowledge for other jobs. You only want RDM to be good over others. You have opinions and you're biased which mean you are not contributing to the balance issues we're facing. It does suck your one job you play isn't performing right now but that doesn't give you the right to trick others to believe other jobs deserve worse.

Feel free to look at mine. https://www.fflogs.com/character/na/...0leyma#zone=44

Posted it on the previous content to show I logged on all 3 caster DPS. You can check I don't have TEA clear but I did clear DSR on RDM. I've also played Tank during ShB and I was a main melee DPS in Stormblood.

As an edit; I would point any of those out if you weren't so stubborn into believe that you're right when you clearly lack the basic knowledge. You have a lot of hot takes but nothing to back them up.

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Might wish to do a bigger deep dive and see my tank and healer parses when helping out others. Try again. Also ad hominem, has no actual impact on balance knowledge. You are dismissed

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Snip for sake of lisibility

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The same logic as before: Every job is braindead until your start to optimize the most ridiculous gain.
This is the only depth of the game and the only aspect that requires knowledge of the game when it comes to jobs.
You brought data and solid argument and have nothing more to prove, I believe everyone agrees with you.

Thought I offer you a friendly advice:
Don't make the same mistake as me and waste energy into convincing a biased individual that their own job is conveniently harder than the others.
You're simply facing someone who's jealous of your performance and clears, trying to lower you on their own level to beat you.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Might wish to do a bigger deep dive and see my tank and healer parses when helping out others. Try again. Also ad hominem, has no actual impact on balance knowledge. You are dismissed

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With what, your 1 clear of each fight on SAG on the previous tier and you're one clear on the first 2 fights on WHM suddenly makes you an expert at saying MCH and SMN should do lower DPS than RDM and RDM should be in the middle?

Or is it the one Eden's Prime / Eden's Promise clear you got on PLD the last expansion that makes you an expert?

Do you know why I'm confident when I say it's easy mode on melee in Endwalker? I played Melee in Stormblood. A significant amount of melee. Do you know why I'm not making many claims on tanks and healers? I certainly have WHM clears https://www.fflogs.com/character/na/...Global&zone=44 but it isn't because I played it seriously. Spamming Glare isn't exactly difficult and doesn't make me a good healer.

Again, you should stick with what you know because should someone manage to completely destroy any credibility you have (which just happened), people will no longer take you seriously. You can still post just fine but you should make a RDM focused thread and stick to it.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

The same logic as before: Every job is braindead until your start to optimize the most ridiculous gain.
This is the only depth of the game and the only aspect that requires knowledge of the game when it comes to jobs.
You brought data and solid argument and have nothing more to prove, I believe everyone agrees with you.

Thought I offer you a friendly advice:
Don't make the same mistake as me and waste energy into convincing a biased individual that their own job is conveniently harder than the others.
You're simply facing someone who's jealous of your performance and clears, trying to lower you on their own level to beat you.

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Oh, no worries, I saw all the posts so I opted to show everyone why he shouldn't be consider x__x that's the best option at this point.

https://i.imgur.com/oZlAu3z.png

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Again, you should stick with what you know

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And what I know is balance. Someone doesn't even need to touch XIV to be able to read and understand parse data, t-cup

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Originally Posted by FireMage

And what I know is balance. Someone doesn't even need to touch XIV to be able to read and understand parse data, t-cup

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You still say MCH should be at the bottom and job difficulty dictates balance, so no you clearly don't, but back to ignoring you outside others beating you at your own logical fallacies lmao

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Originally Posted by FireMage

And what I know is balance. Someone doesn't even need to touch XIV to be able to read and understand parse data, t-cup

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You have in no way shape or form, proven that you know anything about balance of this game. All of your incoherent ramblings have led me to surmise that you do not, in fact, have any semblance of what you are doing. You are so confidently incorrect that you might as well rename yourself to “Dunning-Kruger”. You have been made a fool of several times, especially by Aikaal, who in fact brings solid evidence to iterate his points and it is clear by the way he presents himself he will know more about the balance of this game that you ever will. I award you no points, and may God have mercy upon your soul.

You are summarily dismissed.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

You have in no way shape or form, proven that you know anything about balance of this game. All of your incoherent ramblings have led me to surmise that you do not, in fact, have any semblance of what you are doing. You are so confidently incorrect that you might as well rename yourself to “Dunning-Kruger”. You have been made a fool of several times, especially by Aikaal, who in fact brings solid evidence to iterate his points and it is clear by the way he presents himself he will know more about the balance of this game that you ever will. I award you no points, and may God have mercy upon your soul.

You are summarily dismissed.

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...06/005/2f7.gif

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

No it doesn't, because the Phoenix regen isn't an on-demand heal over time. You get it when you summon Phoenix, which you'd do as soon as it's available because that's how your rotation flows on SMN, not because of outgoing party damage. Magick Barrier is on demand damage mitigation that you can plan for and use whenever you want as long as it's not on CD. A vast majority of the time when I use phoenix, its party heal goes out to a group that's already topped off because phoenix didn't line up with any outgoing party damage and holding phoenix excessively to wait for damage to occur is wildly sub-optimal and pointless. If magicked barrier were like smn regen, you'd be forced to use it the second it came off cd, whether there was damage incoming or not. You would have zero actual agency over when it went out, and most of the time it would accomplish nothing.

This comparison is honestly so inaccurate, and it's what I meant by bad faith arguments earlier. Even disregarding the difference between raw mitigation and healing over time, just the fact that MB can be used on demand makes it so much better.

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I actually think casters in general should be buffed, BLM should even be ahead of samurai (I know hot take)

If you have good enough healers they will know when phoneix is out, this depends on the situations but It does come in use quite a lot, It's pretty useful for what it is even if you can't time it because good healers will make use of it, as it's static they know each and everytime it's going out. Magik Barrier is Addle 2, both are about as useful as each other but generally magick barrier, I generally agree has more general uses, Phonenix Regen is more useful then you give credit, obviously it doesn't compare to Magick barrier, but both are honestly just tiny utilities that don't really even effect much and I'll make that pretty clear.

What I will say is the actual mobility of summoner way overshadows Magick barrier in a lot of cases, It's a massive reason why people want a smn over red mage, SMN can pratically act as a phys ranged 80% of the time it's really useful in Progression when you really don't know when is a good time to move or not, I feel like you just ignored this and talked about phoneix regen when I first said summoner mobility, It's a massive advantage over red mage in general.

I mainly just disagree with the fact you think a 10% Barrier utility is the reason why RDM should be lower then SMN when SMN has lots of options to also support their team, they have so much mobility compared to RDM ontop of that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

And this logic fails due to not considering actual difficulty. MCH shouldn't be doing as much damage as a RDM, just like SMN. Also all rDPS numbers being within 1% of each other is not true balance

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You idiots who thinks MMOs should have same balance as other competitive games like League needs to gtfo.
20 years of MMO and I've never seen people argue FOR "balance based on difficulty", only here in ffxiv, only recently, perhaps due to how every single popular online game has bronze-master tier ranking system.
Who the fuck are you even competing against?

I have heard multiple, good arguments as to why "balance based on difficulty bad", including how it would have a negative impact on the game and it's community.
I have not heard of a single good argument for this "balance based on difficulty good" side, other than like 3 people crying "but how else can i show off how elite i am?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Housinginneed

You idiots who thinks MMOs should have same balance as other competitive games like League needs to gtfo.
20 years of MMO and I've never seen people argue FOR "balance based on difficulty", only here in ffxiv, only recently, perhaps due to how every single popular online game has bronze-master tier ranking system.
Who the fuck are you even competing against?

I have heard multiple, good arguments as to why "balance based on difficulty bad", including how it would have a negative impact on the game and it's community.
I have not heard of a single good argument for this "balance based on difficulty good" side, other than like 3 people crying "but how else can i show off how elite i am?"

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If only these arguments only began recently. I've been seeing and participating in this discussion since Stormblood.

It goes like this. The job which does the highest damage for the least effort ends up being the most populated. They end up becoming the most vocal faction in online discussions, and often end up promoting claims of their own job's supposed 'difficulty' while disparaging that of other jobs.

The problem is that the dev team take the loudest statements at face value, without evaluating why people make those claims in the first place. They then simplify the supposedly difficult job, and everyone is surprisedpikachu that their favorite job is being mistreated so. Mid to late expansion, players actually start trying out other jobs and discover that they were not as simple as originally claimed. They start asking questions about why the balance is so grossly skewed, and then we start seeing adjustments in the correct direction.

And you're right, it's been going on since Stormblood and 4.2's Unga Bunga at the very least.

People who think jobs that are more complex should be doing the most damage think they are competing with their own team, instead of working together to defeat the boss.
It's a team game, if you want to adjust power based on kit complexity, talk about that in the PvP forums, where it actually matters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mithron

You still say MCH should be at the bottom and job difficulty dictates balance, so no you clearly don't

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Me saying those things is an indicator that I know how balance actual works actually. Try again

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Housinginneed

You idiots who thinks MMOs should have same balance as other competitive games like League needs to gtfo.
20 years of MMO and I've never seen people argue FOR "balance based on difficulty", only here in ffxiv, only recently, perhaps due to how every single popular online game has bronze-master tier ranking system.
Who the fuck are you even competing against?

I have heard multiple, good arguments as to why "balance based on difficulty bad", including how it would have a negative impact on the game and it's community.
I have not heard of a single good argument for this "balance based on difficulty good" side, other than like 3 people crying "but how else can i show off how elite i am?"

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You haven't as none exist. RDM competes with the other DPS, MNK competes with the other DPS, EVERY DPS COMPETES WITH THE OTHER DPS. Not balancing on difficulty does nothing but punish those that excel at higher complexity Jobs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

You haven't as none exist. RDM competes with the other DPS, MNK competes with the other DPS, EVERY DPS COMPETES WITH THE OTHER DPS. Not balancing on difficulty does nothing but punish those that excel at higher complexity Jobs

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Factually wrong
Due to the role bonus, you will always have to pick at least 1 melee, 1 caster and 1 ranged for the sake of efficiency.
You have 1 flex spot that will most likely be taken by a melee as they offer more value to the group.

Therefore:
Melees compete for 2 spots among melees jobs.
Casters compete for 1 spot among casters jobs.
Rangeds compete for 1 spot among ranged jobs.

If all DPS competes with all DPS, then we would have 4 melees meta.

I still refuse to debate with you but correcting your so called "facts" will remain my guilty pleasure.
While remaining polite and not being personal of course.

I suggest you try to understand why everyone here disagrees with your takes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Factually wrong
Due to the role bonus, you will always have to pick at least 1 melee, 1 caster and 1 ranged for the sake of efficiency.
You have 1 flex spot that will most likely be taken by a melee as they offer more value to the group.

Therefore:
Melees compete for 2 spots among melees jobs.
Casters compete for 1 spot among casters jobs.
Rangeds compete for 1 spot among ranged jobs.

If all DPS competes with all DPS, then we would have 4 melees meta.

I still refuse to debate with you but correcting your so called "facts" will remain my guilty pleasure.
While remaining polite and not being personal of course.

I suggest you try to understand why everyone here disagrees with your takes.

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Someone doesn't get how balance works and then strawmans, adorable

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Someone doesn't get how balance works and then strawmans, adorable

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Yeah, that someone is you, Mr. King of Logical Fallacies

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Someone doesn't get how balance works and then strawmans, adorable

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What is difficulty? Is it a rigid, static rotation? On one hand, you always know what you're going to hit next; you're always going to know the shape and form of the skill flow you're aiming for. On the other? Well, any failure will cascade.

Is it flexibility? The added level of decisionmaking means that the player is more responsible for knowing what they need to do to achieve the level they want to be at. Every gcd, another decision to make, but consequently its difficult to notice when a mistake has been made and generally easy to recover when mistakes are made.

Is it sheer jank? Is it extremely limited resources linked to mobility? Is it maintaining a gauge with an ability that shears 10 seconds off of that gauge that you need to spend every 30 seconds?

I don't know. This has been a question I pose to people who act hoity toity about how they should do more because "their job is more difficult." What is difficulty, what metric are we measuring by, and how is it going to correlate to damage?

At the end of the day I'd even argue that job complexity is nigh immaterial. You're going to learn the job enough to commit the bread and butter to muscle memory and learn how to apply it to the scenarios the fight gives you. Especially nowadays when if you ask anyone every job is braindead now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Someone doesn't get how balance works and then strawmans, adorable

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This is no strawman, neither about understanding balance.
I'm not making any argument, therefore I cannot make a strawman argument, I am simply stating a fact.

You cannot argue about the veracity of a fact, not even trying to downplay my post.
It is a fact whether you like it or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Yeah, that someone is you, Mr. King of Logical Fallacies

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I don't ever use logical fallacies

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

This is no strawman, neither about understanding balance.
I'm not making any argument, therefore I cannot make a strawman argument, I am simply stating a fact.

You cannot argue about the veracity of a fact, not even trying to downplay my post.
It is a fact whether you like it or not.

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Your opinion is not fact, that's actually gross of you to try to state that

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Due to the role bonus, you will always have to pick at least 1 melee, 1 caster and 1 ranged for the sake of efficiency.

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That's true only if the roles are sufficiently close to each other in DPS.

If melees get sufficiently ahead of casters, for example, the melee advantage would overcome the 1% role bonus for bringing the caster, making it worthwhile to forgo the caster.

You need to balance within a role to ensure that no job gets locked out. You need to balance between the roles to ensure that no role gets locked out.

(I'm sure this has all been said before.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

And this logic fails due to not considering actual difficulty. MCH shouldn't be doing as much damage as a RDM, just like SMN. Also all rDPS numbers being within 1% of each other is not true balance

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Your opinion is not fact, that's actually gross of you to try to state that

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nutshell

Your opinion is not fact, that's actually gross of you to try to state that

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That was a factual statement, not an opinion

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Your opinion is not fact, that's actually gross of you to try to state that

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Fact stated:
1% role bonus exists and encourage to have at least 1 melee, 1 caster and 1 ranged.
Due to these 3 spots garanteed, each DPS role is competing for the spot of its own role.
Last spot, the flex spot, will be most likely given to a melee DPS as their DPS is higher.

Source:
5.0 Patch notes

Linked picture:
https://i.imgur.com/1G0bIkG.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Fact stated:
1% role bonus exists and encourage to have at least 1 melee, 1 caster and 1 ranged.
Due to these 3 spots garanteed, each DPS role is competing for the spot of its own role.
Last spot, the flex spot, will be most likely given to a melee DPS as their DPS is higher.

Source:
5.0 Patch notes

Linked picture:
https://i.imgur.com/1G0bIkG.png

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And here you are continuing on about something I never contested. And now you're stuck strawmanning. I'll help you get back to my point if you ask nicely

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Fact stated:
1% role bonus exists and encourage to have at least 1 melee, 1 caster and 1 ranged.
Due to these 3 spots garanteed, each DPS role is competing for the spot of its own role.
Last spot, the flex spot, will be most likely given to a melee DPS as their DPS is higher.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

You haven't as none exist. RDM competes with the other DPS, MNK competes with the other DPS, EVERY DPS COMPETES WITH THE OTHER DPS. Not balancing on difficulty does nothing but punish those that excel at higher complexity Jobs

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"RDM competes with the other DPS"
As seen above, "other DPS" includes: Monk, Dragoon, Ninja, Samurai, Bard, Machinist, Dancer, Black Mage and Summoner.
But with the Party bonus existing, it is untrue. RDM will never had to compete with MNK or DRG.

This is no strawman argument, you exactly said "RDM competes with other DPS" and "EVERY DPS COMPETES WITH THE OTHER DPS" with the generosity of putting it in capslock

The contradiction is clear as day. You're free to correct yourself if you failed to convey your idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

And here you are continuing on about something I never contested. And now you're stuck strawmanning. I'll help you get back to my point if you ask nicely

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Your opinion is not fact, that's actually gross of you to try to state that

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I stated a fact (the party bonus), you tried to contest it and claimed it was an opinion.
I proved the fact.