You still don't know what it means for fights to have enrage timers, so I'm not sure you understand what bubbles or even realities truly are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navnav
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01-27-2022, 06:34 AMIruruCece
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01-27-2022, 06:56 AMssunny2008So at the day it´s Sqwall, at night it´s Navnav... multiaccounts? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Navnav
Do you honestly think your claims have any meaning? You´ve no clue what you´re talking about and you can´t even give a proper answer when someone is talking serious to you. -
01-27-2022, 07:03 AMNavnav
Because none of you guys think with an ounce of reality in your head, your arguments are down right weird and only make sense to a niche echo chamber that is this forum sometimes. So why bother take you seriously, honestly....
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01-27-2022, 07:09 AMssunny2008It´s not like someone, who has never posted anything before to you, has even asked in the other thread , what you think other games do better and how we should improve it here etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by Navnav
Of course you gave no answer. It has been more important to jump to the next thread claiming the same nonsense. You´ve no clue what you´re talking about and you´re nothing but selfish like one or another positional-hater here.
Yeah, maybe we live in a bubble. A bubble where 1 out of 5 classes could be positional-heavy to cater such kind of players which enjoy them. I guess living in that bubble is way more than living in moms empty basement. -
01-27-2022, 07:16 AMMikey_RSince I clearly do not understand this reality, you need to enlighten me as I clearly need educating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navnav
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01-27-2022, 10:05 AMDarkDredgen
Someone: I like the colour blue.
Some people on this forum: Wrong. You're wrong. That's an incorrect view point. Take you and the colour blue and gtfo. You should like red, and the fact you don't means you don't understand anything. -
01-27-2022, 02:14 PMMikey_RWhen they take away my only Blue option and turn it into Red, I am allowed to voice my opinion. If there is a reason they prefer Red, they should just stick with Red, of which there are more options and not take away Blue to make another Red.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkDredgen
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01-27-2022, 03:27 PMsilentwindfrsince the alpha of the v2 i say that positional for monk are stupid. do you see a martial artist wait to be behind or on the side of an enemy for attack? no... monk are martial artist they are not rogue, they are not assassin, they are not thief... even in game like d&d you don't have this sort of bullshit. and is normal, because martial artist search the fight with them body, they don't try to sneakly hit or such.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahnom
do it means i like the reword? i found it ankward... some skill that must'nt be here are still here anatman is the perfect exemple.
some skill must become passive, like riddle of the wind that was put here for counter balance. the increase of auto attack speed that we did loose with the change of greese lightning. because yes, before this change our auto attack was affected by it...
the ankward situation between our timer...
a lot of stuff need to be adressed, but the loose of some positional is not something that bother me.. personally im for getting ride of it, at this point it's more a shackle than anything else. because right now for the combo each skill fill a role, positional can be taken out and it will not change our combo.
and about dev team that don't design fight with positional in the head, did you notice like some boss (like p2n/s) don't have positional, because they know some fight you can't respect them... -
01-27-2022, 03:30 PMNavnav
I understand when things change it can be frustrating, you should have seen my frustrations with the Survival Hunter change in Legion. If you think you guys are mad now with the positionals, you should have seen me when they changed my ranged spec into melee. Everyone was getting blasted at the mention of lovin it being melee. So trust me I can relate, but because of that I also know that you can adapt and eventually get on with it, no need to debate on the forums, because ultimately the problem is with the developers and not the community. I really don't think they are reading much of anything here, and instead didn't like the feel of doing positionals with their monk rework when THEY played it.
Positionals are gone now, and if they don't come back, which I doubt they will, what changes would you seggest for monk that would satisfy you gameplay wise for the job? This is an honest question for once. I actually want to know, even from SSbunny. -
01-27-2022, 03:42 PMIruruCeceIf that was true, you'd actually have bothered reading the dozens of posts across multiple threads by multiple people that have offered suggestions on what they'd want to see done for the job, including the threads where you were being a lot less subtle about what you are. Even when you claim you're offering an honest question you're still being a liar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navnav
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01-27-2022, 04:14 PMKahnomCompare this to real life is dumb but I’ll play along.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentwindfr
Martial Artist don’t always aim for the face or belly but also the side of the body or the limbs if they see any openings.
They don’t stand still in one spot but have their footworks to move around to do what ?
Looking for weakness or nice spot to strike and this is more real than your reasons.
About p2s, they make it omni-positionals because the size is too big, that’s it.
And trust me on this, Even if they didn’t make it omni-positionals, the old mnk won’t complain or whining. -
01-27-2022, 04:35 PMDarkDredgenYou can voice your opinion without having to discredit others opinions on an entirely subjective matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
Your parents should have taught you that when you were like 5 years old.
I like Monk with a few less positionals.
..I also like seeing a bunch of socially inept people on the Internet get mad because I don't like the same things they do lol -
01-27-2022, 05:21 PMVentVanitasI'll humour you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navnav
Making Blitz have some kind of presence outside of our bursts, by either having some kind of method to achieve Blitz outside of PB, or by shortening its cooldown to 20-30 seconds. So in essence we go from 2 PB -> 1 PB - > 2 PB every burst to just 2 PB every burst. And in the scenario of 20s PB, it'd be 2 every burst and 1 in downtime. Adjust the potencties accordingly of course. It would bring Masterful Blitz around the same level of use as NIN's Ninjutsu (who also does 2 every burst and 1 in every downtime) which can be used outside of Kassatsu, and SAM's Iaijutsu which can be used outside of Meikyo Shisui.
Secondly, increase the cap of Chakra by 5 because there's no strategy or thought behind Chakra at all, you just pop it immediately once you have it and it makes Brotherhood feel awful. Increasing the cap would at least give us some leeway for weaving which is important on a job that is permanently stuck with ~1.9s GCD.
That would be enough for me. I don't care that much about losing positionals, I'm more upset that they were taken away with nothing else to replace what was lost. -
01-27-2022, 05:40 PMNavnavAll the suggestions revolve around positionals, I am genuinely asking (i mean that), what you would like to see without positionals being back to more than what they are now. What would you like to see or do you think would make MNK more engaging for you mechanically, without the positionals?Quote:
Originally Posted by IruruCece
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01-27-2022, 05:56 PMNavnavThose seem good though. And thanks for taking me seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by VentVanitas
I think PB should open up new abilities that replace BS, TS and SP. Those abilities can be around 4-500 pot and can give enhancements on next hit like crit on next ability, shorten next GCD to 1.5 seconds and maybe opens 2 chakra. each one can do something a little different to make them worth hitting, but if you have to hit one for lunar, then you dont feel like you are missing out too much.
They can call them by the forms like:
Oppo Strike
Raptor Kick
Coeurl Punch (w/e)
PB can also refresh DF, but not demolish.
RoW can simply be changed into a 20% reduction in GCD speed, to give a faster gcd for 15 seconds. As I believe monk was most noted for having a faster GCD more than anything else. So to see it get a CD which makes you play extremely fast for a while is good, plus will do something for DPS.
They can either lower PB to 30 seconds or simply get a use for Anatman that isn't retarded. Something like Anatman resets a charge of PB on a 120-180s CD.
They can also bring back howling fist from lower levels as a standard AoE oGCD on a cooldown and Make SSS an OGCD that increases the damage of our next GCD by 30% on a 40s CD or there abouts.
Would love to see some of that, doubt I will though. -
01-27-2022, 06:11 PMssunny2008Someone else already asked you for such an answer, you ignored that. And now you're asking for the same? To copy'n'paste some stuff?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Navnav
Your ideas above are bad. Have you played too much SMN? What's the point that skills become just other skills with more potency or that we spam chakra way more?
You clearly don't want some real gameplay with variety across the board. All what you want is too feel good by pressing 1 button obviously.
"Reward me with big potency and shiny animations please!"
Ridiculous... -
01-27-2022, 07:16 PMwereotterIt's not directly part of this, but I have to say... this was the biggest disappointment for me about the new monk kit. I haven't finished them all, but all the jobs I do have up to level 90 excepting monk and summoner (the two that got overhauled) got brand new skills at level 90 that extend their combos or what they can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssunny2008
It's disappointing to me that the level cap skill for monk was tornado kick with extra damage. And the thing is, this wouldn't even be that hard to adjust. Keep Tornado Kick an OGCD, and introduce the lunar/solar nadi as a mechanic at level 90. Make Phantom Rush cost one of each to use. Might have had to adjust the cooldown length on perfect balance to make this work, but you could create a rotation wherein you get Phantom Rush in the opener, and every 2 minute window.
Also I 100% agree with an earlier comment. It's insane that for 5 years now monks are over capping chakras since we must use our gauge when it's at 100%. We don't need an extra five stacks, even just giving us the ability to hold 7 would solve the problem. And if they're concerned that would put too much fire power on the job, make it so we can only open the 6th and 7th chakras in combat. -
01-27-2022, 08:20 PMIruruCeceI don't expect you to take any of my suggestions seriously given your track record, so I'd first like positionals restored because you, specifically, don't like them and I'd like it if you were driven away from the job. They would be a significant increase in damage over missing them altogether, so lazy players who would just coast directly behind the boss and ignore them because they were statistically "irrelevant" would be further discouraged from the job or be forced to land them to be effective as players who do land them as often as possible. Screw the whiners. They had other jobs they could play instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navnav
Additionally, I'd like the blitz and chakra systems revamped so as to not recycle animations from OGCDs we used to have, and instead have OGCDs restored for players to have more to do with. Chakra also needs to be reworked beyond that, arguably a thing that has been needed since at least Heavensward, but in typical SE fashion, they've ignored players longstanding complaints about that system. Having it be so heavily reliant on other players and rngesus until level 88, even with Brotherhood at 70, is frankly stupid and unengaging to me. I have hated that for a long time.
Chakra, in my opinion, should have been a resource we generated rapidly AND spent rapidly without RNG being a factor whatsoever. Think like a super-meter in a fighting game. It would have things beyond Forbidden Chakra/Enlightenment to spend on. This, imo, is where the restored OGCDs would come into play. Ideally, I'd want chakra generation to also be improved in some by successful positionals (instead of one chakra, possibly two). Six Sided Star would be part of that system rather than what it is right now, removing the enforced global cool down on it. Rather than having Riddle of Wind be a running speed increase, maybe make SSS do what RoW does, and get rid of RoW as a separate button on top of that.
I legit don't know if Blitz would fit in with my "idea" for doing more with Chakra. Frankly, Blitz exists because SE had no clue what to do with Monk beyond giving it some flashy animations. I think it is roundly a failure that was more intended to act as a filler for multiple things being stripped out of the job at once, but again in typical SE fashion, they continued to neglect other problems in the job's kit while creating more on top of them. Assuming it stayed, Celestial Revolution wouldn't be the job's version of Ninja's bunny. It would be a single target blitz, and possibly gets an animation upgrade later down the line as the job levels towards 90-100. Rather than players spamming blitzes to build up to Phantom Rush as quickly as possible, I'd want it to be a system that players use as the circumstances demand.
The goal, in my opinion, is to not have any dead space in the job's rotation, no moments where a monk is waiting for CDs to "unload", be that Perfect Balance, Brotherhood, or RoF. It should ALWAYS be unloading, with the APM only increasing when it is officially go time and we're cramming everything we can under buffs. There would be less emphasis on "big" AoE-capable hits like the Blitz System basically now encourages, which to me is antithetical to job when I enjoyed it most (back in Heavensward). Individual button potencies would obviously need to be changed to reflect the number of things a monk would be firing off from minute to minute.
Thunderclap goes the En Avant route. I am not a fan of damageless gap closers/disengages that rely on targeting something else, and never will be. -
01-27-2022, 09:44 PMAndy_T93
Im sure this topic has gone back and forth and I don't have the energy to read through it all but I will say I agree with TC I loved Monk in SHB and it took me a while to get used to the changes but now I have im having a blast with it, there are still a few rough edges, Anatman and SSS (also lack of OGCD, which makes me think they should just make SSS a normal OGCD)
Overall tho very happy with it -
01-27-2022, 09:55 PMLihtleitayour mother never taught you to aim for the kidneys?Quote:
Originally Posted by silentwindfr
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01-28-2022, 01:06 AMNavnavOk if you don't like it cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssunny2008
I gotta say you are beyond toxic. Oh by the way, YOUR POSITIONALS ARE GONE, GONE GONE GONE. Go stand in a corner and strafe left and right for nostalgia... Honestly, you are something else. Oh and GONE! -
01-28-2022, 01:37 AMMikey_ROpinions are there to be voiced and criticised, if you could not criticise an opinion, who knows what sort of ideas could be thrown around. I always encourage people to challenge my ideas/opinions and that can only come with conversations. This can also lead to better understanding between parties about what is good and what is bad. This is the basis of Critical Analysis which aims to broaden a person's way of thinking. This is something you should have been taught when you were older and is one of the principles of having a proper discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkDredgen
Also;
In ShB, Monk was the sole job with alot of positional requirements in a role that had 4 options in total.
In EW, Monk is now a job with few positionals in a role that has 5 options.
People liked the fact there was a job that had a high positional count.
People are upset that the one job that fit a gameplay they enjoy is now gone.
All of those points are objective facts. We have lost a playstyle for...no reason? Doesn't help that when the changes were implemented, this same guy basically came on here and gloated about it, essentially rubbing it in our faces with a big screw you.
Positionals being removed because of PB was something given by devs, but they could have done something different, like Perfect Balance removing positional requirements, that way, during the PB window where there is alot going on, you do not have to worry about them. Instead, they went the route where they took it away from everything and the gameplay suffered for it.
We get the argument of, you don't like Monk? Play something else? What exactly? Nothing has loads of positionals, there is nothing else. If you didn't like positionals, you would have 4 melee to choose from compared to our 1 choice in Monk.
The side that presents positionals as a positive for the job have always come back with arguments about how they make a job more engaging, pointing out the hypocrisy from other others and all we get in return is not a discussion, it is more of a tough balls, I do not care. I even encouraged the conversation in post 86 essentially pleading, tell me why you do not like them, let me understand, but they have not responded to it. Would I have criticised their points? Of course, but that is what I want, feel free to criticise me as well, I am not afraid of what someone has to say or having my mind changed, but so far, no arguments have been compelling enough to change it. -
01-28-2022, 02:01 AMNavnav
I can tell you why i didn't like that many positionals.
Because they felt pointless. NOT DIFFICULT, pointless. Hate mechanics of a class needlessly thrown into the mix simply because no one could be bothered to think how to make the class function properly. That is essentially what monk was. Kudos to them for getting it right. -
01-28-2022, 02:03 AMMikey_RMonk's main problem is the downtime between burst windows being boring. There is not alot to do and TFC really doesn't fill that hole. This is why positionals are heavily requested as they are an easy way to keep someone's mind occupied during these periods that doesn't require adding any extra moves or changing potencies. However, here are some suggestions on what could be done, not necessarily at the same time, but they are positional related, so you can assume this is with a kit back full of positionals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navnav
1. PB change. I have said this a few times now, but changing PB to ignore positionals would help in the burst windows. It can be alot to keep track of, so easing that burden for the APM heavy segments of the fight by allowing you to ignore positionals will help. The PB windows was also the excuse the dev team used to get rid of them, but I feel it was overboard and this would bring things back on track.
2. A change to Dragon Kick and Bootshine. Currently, it seems the team want to make Opo-opo a crit stance. Well then, lets make it a crit stance. Bootshine and Dragon Kick both auto crit regardless of positionals and make them buff each other. Give Bootshine a buff that, when landed, gives a 'Leaden Kick' buff that boosts Dragon Kick, the same way Dragon Kick boosts Bootshine. I would also make this a stacking system. You can stack, say, up to 2 of each buff and each time you use the corresponding Opo-opo move, you remove 1 stack. To give an example;
Dragon Kick (Gain Leaden Fist) > filler > Dragon Kick (2 Leaden fist) > Filler > Bootshine (Gives Leaden Kick, takes away 1 Leaden Fist) > etc.
This has the benefit of having some flexibility to the positional you can hit and you aren't punished for using one twice in a row. With both Dragon Kick and Bootshine being auto crits, it also helps to build TFC faster with the maximum time between TFC being ~26 seconds, which is about the same as Dragoons Wyrmwind Thrust (~25 seconds) as a comparison.
3. This one will require a bit work, but add a new Form, Opo-opo > Raptor > Coeurl > Dragon as an example. Dragon would have 2 attacks, each the same potency, one has positional for the rear, one has it for the flank. This again is a way to have a choice on what you do regardless of buffs, so whatever is easier. This could also be expanded into the Lunar/Solar system. One attack gives a Lunar Nadi, the other gives a Solar Nadi, you can then design a system around that. You have to build up X of both Lunar and Solar to use a strong oGCD, or, have them build up similar to beast chakra, in that you build 2 Lunar for an attack, 2 Solar for another attack or a combination of the 2 for another. This is still fresh in my mind, so exact details are scarce but it could be interesting.
4. Making Riddle of Wind into a trait that not only increases Auto attack rate but also movement speed (or just movement if you want). This is just a QoL and is aimed at making Monk move faster so that you can have a bit more leeway in getting into position to, well, get your positionals off.
5. If you truly want a suggestion doesn't rely on positionals, then some of the changes I listed above could work without positionals just as well. Though, a simple oGCD with a 20 second cooldown would make alot of difference in the feel for Monk, but you then run into the issue of 'that's just a boring oGCD that you just hit'. Not saying that is a bad thing, but it is an argument people could use.
In your opinion, they are pointless, but in others, they are not. They like the thought that goes into landing positionals around mechanics. I get it, you do not like that, but that doesn't mean others do not, however, just because you do not like something, does not mean it should be changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navnav
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01-28-2022, 02:09 AMNavnavI get your point, but that isn't reality. Some people HATE an opposing political party, but have to accept change if at elections that party wins over the one they support. It is just the simple reality. When others hated it, you enjoyed it, now the others can enjoy it while you hate it. Sometimes it is just the way things go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
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01-28-2022, 02:17 AMMikey_RThe difference here is that in politics, you have 1 party in charge, you cannot choose to follow someone else, so you are essentially forced into following someone you do not. With melee jobs however, you are not forced into one job. You do not like positionals, or at least loads of positionals, you have other options that you can play that affect noone else. So I can stay with my heavy positional job and you can play something else. Everyone wins. However, my choice has been taken away and nothing to replace it. If you want to then compare this to politics (which is not an area I excel in at all), it would be similar to the left changing their ideals completely and essentially become another right party. The left then lose their option on who to vote for and the right are there with choices and just telling the left to suck it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navnav
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01-28-2022, 02:41 AMBlutifuli've been laughing at this for like 3 minutes the interactions between these two are the best thing in this threadQuote:
Originally Posted by Navnav
Monk was a class many were unsatisfied with before. That is true. But what is also true is that Monk is a class that a lot of veterans are now discontent with. That doesn't necessarily mean this rework is a horrendous failure that has no upsides, nor does it mean it can't be improved upon. I think it's valid also for Monk players(of which I have been one since 2.0,) to be highly skeptical of the claim that this rework is a new foundation which they'll build upon and add to and make more complex because - that's some shit we've heard so many times that at this point Square Enix is starting to sound like Monk's absentee father.
I'm rather indifferent to the removal of positionals, and can even profess to not being the biggest fan of them either, but what I did love about Monk was the fast-paced gameplay. Not just the GCD speed, but the ogcds, Howling Fist, Steel Peak, the timers, the ogcds, chakra, and the positionals, a whirlwind mishmash of nonsense to keep the ADHD brain going. And yeah, I get that this wasn't everyone's thing, but what I'm hearing a lot in this thread is that we can all agree there's not a single job in this game now that satisfies this niche for the dedicated Monk players there are out there. I think it's actually more egregious, more criminal that they didn't replace positionals with something as or more busy than anything else, and I get that vibe from a lot of other monks.
There's a lot of me that nods in agreement that a crucial part of the identity of this job feels missing. I can't quite vocalize it other than 'chaos'. I cannot emphasize enough I think this could be resolved in a number of ways that are not just restoring the positionals. If they were to do anything that makes me have to do something besides the basic rotation I've been doing since Titan Hard Mode was relevant endgame content, but minus the positionals, I would find Monk's current iteration far more fun and enjoyable in the downtime between your Blitzes and RoF/Brotherhood windows.
But failing all this, yeah, I think adding the positionals back would be an improvement, only because of how stale the current gameplay loop feels at times.
But this is also highly subjective, and perhaps the rising amount of Monk players(because the job does the sick nasty deeps, yo, let's keep it real, that's honestly probably the main draw right now,) will be the data that speaks louder than the threads.
Or maybe they'll get it right on the 18th Monk rework? -
01-28-2022, 02:46 AMSqwallI agree completely. I never got satisfaction from completing positionals or happy chemicals released for something NOT DIFFICULT. I never sat back on my couch and thought, "Man, I really hit those positionals perfectly! I'm the best!".Quote:
Originally Posted by Navnav
The two positionals that are left is the RIGHT amount of annoyance. It's not overbearing, and it's also in line with other Melee jobs. I have no issues with DRG, SAM, or NIN positonals. Those jobs ALSO have the right amount of positionals.
Monk is better off and I would love to see the population results of who played it then...to who plays it now. I for one have been running into MANY monks in all content. I have also spoke with MNK mains in my FC that ALSO say good riddance to positionals being removed, and they aren't complaining.
I'm under the assumption now that those still pushing for everything to go back to the way it was or Blitz "is horrible", simply just can't see the forest beyond the trees. MNK isn't perfect...but it is LEAPS AND BOUNDS better then what we had for 7 years. I think it's time to let go.
Greased Lightning isn't coming back, 6 Positionals aren't coming back, stances aren't coming back. I'm already past all that...and I'm looking at what can they ADD. Will I have to wait for 7.0...sure. Will I enjoy MNK until then....yes! Will I have to listen to those still in denial....obviously. Ignore me on the forums if you want...I really don't care....I never have. The less I have to interact with vitriolic or hyperbolic attitudes the better...don't need that in my life, and I use these forums to express my view or opinions. Ask questions, and start good dialogue, with the occasional elated post. And I don't think the Dev team ignore or block anyone, but I do think they have their ears to the rails on these topics.
BUT IF.....IF the dev's see this or anything I post I want them to know this.... YOU DID A GOOD JOB WITH MONK!
I know it was like 40 miles of bad road for Monk....but this new road you have paved is MUCH better. Keep up the good work SE! -
01-28-2022, 02:51 AMSqwallTHIS is a real post. Not negative...indifferent...on point. This is the stop gap post I echo, but lack the eloquence to type.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutiful
Cheers. -
01-28-2022, 03:05 AMSqwallI would say this if while you're open minded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
For years I have dealt with the 6 positionals for mediocre potency increase....fine. I'll do them but I think they are needless, but that's the way the job plays. I deal with them.
For years I have been told I needed to play some other job and leave monk to the "elite few that can master it".
Current iteration everything has flipped. Now I don't have to deal with 6 postionals but only 2! And I still get the benefit of potency increase without moving around which just felt needless.
And also those that told me to play something else now hate the new monk...yet I can now enjoy it. While also NUMEROUS others now enjoy it, and the crazy deeps it brings.
Six weeks of unraveling muscle memory, new opener, new loop, everything. For me this was great and I was ok with all of it. Is it a little slow during the lull' between blitzs...sure. Do I care...not in the slightest.
But NOW those that say the positionals never hurt anything in the first place still continue to do them out of bordem. Saying there is nothing wrong with 6 positionals and to put them back in. Yet you still do them.....why? Since it is quite literally POINTLESS to do them now. You say you are bored....so you fill the time with movement while you wait for the next Blitz.
I say they were pointless then and only served little to small amounts of gratification. And now they are gone were they serve NO point now in terms of potency....yet you still do them? THAT is the question I would like answered also. Are you really THAT bored? Honestly speaking. -
01-28-2022, 03:33 AMMikey_R1. looking at positionals in a vacuum, sure, I can see how they can bee seen as needless and pointless, however, it is when you combine it with other mechanics from a boss that makes them enjoyable to some people. Doing the boss mechanics and hitting the positionals felt great and the potency boost was your reward, even if it wasn't that big.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqwall
2. Have you? I do not remember the narrative that Monk players were part of 'an elite', it was most likely a case of, if you do not like positionals, play something else, which is the same as, if you don't like cast times, don't play a mage, if you don't want to worry about defensive rotations, don't play a tank etc.
3. Saying 'I now enjoy the new Monk' is the same mentality you condemned in your previous point. Don't like it? play something else. Don't like positionals? play something else. Same argument, but because you are on the side that benefits you the most, you then say it is a valid argument to make. As for the last point, if people only play it for the DPS, are they really playing it because they enjoy it, or, if another DPS came along that done more DPS, would they switch over to that? The majority of the Monk playerbase didn't care about the damage (as long as it was balanced, but that is the same for every job) and cared more about the playstyle it adopted.
4. That lul is the main issue I personally have with Monk and for me personally, I feel positionals is an easy way to make the lul more engaging, they wouldn't even have to change anything, just add the positionals back and spread the potency from Snap Punch and Demolish to the other GCDs.
5. I do them because it is so ingrained into me, when I get to the lul in the rotations, it is just automatic, I do not have to think about them. If mechanics happen, and I have to switch on again, I do not worry about hitting them at all (except Snap Punch and Demolish) as I know they aren't needed. However, the fact people do do them out of boredom does highlight the fact that that section of the rotation is lacking.
6. With the lul phases, yes. During the burst, I am engaged and I could see an argument for removing the positionals from the Masterful Blitz windows, however, it should not be at the cost of the rest of the rotation. This is why I have suggested the Perfect Balance change to negate positionals. This way, you have positionals in the downtime, but when it gets hectic, you have a period you do not have to worry about them. I have yet to hear anyone's opinion on this idea so I am unsure how people from both sides view this.
I also want to comment on this statement that you made in post #109:
"Greased Lightning isn't coming back, 6 Positionals aren't coming back, stances aren't coming back"
I agree with Greased Lightning becoming a trait and the removal of stances. GL was starting to hold the job back in that state as every expansion it was just more GL maintenance tools, which is not exciting in the slightest and stances were essentially, what gives the most damage, use that. However, positionals were something that I feel did not need to go. -
01-28-2022, 04:00 AMNavnavPoint 2 you made is the problem I have with players like Ssbunny. There are players, quite a few in fact that truly do believe that doing positionals takes 1337 skill, like as if you are 360 no scoping every gcd. If you do not like the positionals, never mind that you can hit them every GCD no problem, they dont care about that, to them if you don't like them, then you are rubbish at monk and should play something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
This is where my distain for them came even further. Because too many monks keep saying players are rubbish for not liking them, then they start getting all rude and fruity about it. So you dish that same energy back.
Not with you though, you seem rather level-headed. I like that, you put good arguments, even if I don't see it the same, I can respect your opinion due to how you word it out. -
01-28-2022, 04:10 AMIruruCeceYou have to remember that the people who truly believe old monk players were part of some self styled "elite" group are also the same people who think the thing that allegedly makes them "elite" (hitting positionals regularly) are also the same people who think that said positionals are also irrelevant/boring/unrewarding/too easy. Ultimately, "elites" in this case aren't actually special beyond their willingness to engage with the game's mechanics and their enjoyment of it, but it's easier for players like Sqwall and Navnav to discount other people's opinions by otherising them first. When they get it thrown back in their faces, they play victim. This has been going on for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
People like Navnav aren't being rude over discussions of the job or the game's mechanics because one day, the "elites" were rude to him first. He does what he does because he's a troll. You're trying to hold a discussion with a dude who claimed that Dancers shouldn't be doing damage, and that healers should "only heal", among other things. -
01-28-2022, 04:10 AMMikey_REven though I agree with Ssunny on many points, I will agree with you that labelling a whole group of players as the reason Monk's positionals were removed and using that to attack that same group of people is uncalled for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navnav
While at first with the changes, I might have been a bit hot headed (I honestly do not remember) I do want to try and understand what the other side sees. I have a feeling that liking alot of positionals does come down to what you enjoy. I like to think of it as a puzzle, how can I do mechanics and still hit the positionals, logic puzzles are things I enjoy, so this is a way I can engage that part of my brain whilst playing this game. I, obviously, cannot make assumptions on anyone else to prove or disprove this point, or to see if there is any sort of correlation there at all, however, I hope a few people could humour me with their own opinions. Do you like logic puzzles and do you enjoy position heavy jobs. The more I think on this, the more interested I am as to how close this potential correlation could be. -
01-28-2022, 04:17 AMSqwall
@mickey
All great points of view.
#2 and #3 question. Yes, I have been told to just go play something else numerous times and leave MNK alone as I only pull a grey or green parse someone once said. I don't really care, and what my DPS is or that I'm not in the top percentile of damage. That's not the point, and I never wanted MNK to be the new reaper. It just happened that way. I'm sure if I looked hard enough I can find the posts....but I don't care...it's in the past. I take everything sunny2008 posts with "a grain of salt", and I'm not posting here for the benefit of those that disagree with me. I'm here for the DEV's to see, nothing more.
I have been told that I even embody all that is "ruining" gaming and trying to make everything to casual. Examples: I want an easy mode for Dark Souls, or can't complete hard games like seikiro. Which I have completed, dark souls I, II, III, Bloodborne, Demon's Souls, and actually have seikro just haven't sat down to actually play it. I'm actually taking time off FFXIV to play Elden Ring. My skin is pretty thick and I don't have to much to worry about with "mean people in the FFXIV forums" Off topic...i'll continue.
With the comments towards me that I'm "white knighting" for the dev team...on the contrary. I still hold them to the same standard as I do with any job in the game. I just have more to say about MNK, and I think it's warranted as MNK has been in contention for some years now. If anything I expect excellence out of the DEV's as I want them to avoid backsliding as some other MMO's have done, and CONSTANTLY remind them of the hardship of coming out of FFXIV 1.0 means. That iteration was the antithesis of what a game should be.
#4 point: I'm optimistic. I try to look on the bright side for the most part and avoid being a hyperbolic doomsayer. Those that saw the media tour and what was to come for MNK judged it BEFORE it even came out, and SE was still working on it obviously. Flocked to the forums with doom and gloom saying MNK is dead. Terrible. Awful. Boring.
Now it's one of the best DPS classes...maybe top 5 played (which is due to each point in that comment). While also leaving me hopeful for the future of things to come. You condemn it for being boring, I applaud for being less arbitrary. You say needs more oGCD, I see potential for additions to oGCD's in the future. I agree Blitz needs work...but not to have the dev team rip it up and start again when they probably just fought through hell to give us THIS.
Thank you for the honest response, and civil discourse. We don't have to agree on everything, but I think we can agree we both want the best for MNK.
I suppose to analogize: Rome wasn't built in a day, and it took even longer to paint everything. But it still stands today, even if it's not the same. -
01-28-2022, 04:29 AMNavnavJeez, cut me some slack would you. The dancer thing is true. I joked about that one though, which would be obvious to anyone but you...Quote:
Originally Posted by IruruCece
As for the healing one, I do believe healers SHOULD be forced to GCD heal more. I wont hide that at all. However that is down to encounter design in general and how the damage intake is far too scripted. Not that they shouldn't do damage, but having to gcd heal should be something that is considered normal. Hot take for someone like you i know, but that is what I think. I still play healers and enjoy them, I can accept the game does it differently here, but that doesn't mean I can't express my opinion.
How about you just do yourself a favour and go play in the sun for a while, I can imagine you need a little vitamin D after standing in Ssbunny's shadow for so long. -
01-28-2022, 04:33 AMMikey_RFrom the media tour, I was sceptical, about losing positionals on Raptor form skills, however, I was willing to give it a go, to then take away the ones from Opo-opo before we even tried it I would say was a step too far. I would have stayed with Raptor form positionals gone and judge the feedback from there, changing if needed. While I cannot say for certain, I believe this could have been enough to satisfy me and I might not have noticed the lackluster downtime between bursts. I hope we can agree that this is the route they should have taken, rather than going straight for everything as it is a very big change for Monks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqwall
I think alot of this comes from the fact we are 3 expansions in and Monk really hasn't grown much, with the majority of it being the Blitzes. SB and ShB were both disappointing in evolving Monk's playstyle and to have EW add something new, that was good, but at the detriment of taking away something else. Other jobs did not have this (maybe Ninja, but I'm not a Ninja expert and I don't really play it) and they felt like their gameplay evolved over the expansions. This is what has always frustrated me the most, seeing other jobs get good stuff every expansion and Monk is just left behind. After 2 lackluster expansions and a mixed bag, I was hoping that we wouldn't have to wait til the next one just to see improvements when that is all I have been doing.
As a quick aside, I do fully agree with this. I am not a healer main myself, doing dungeons and the occasional relevant trial when the game happens to put me in there from roulettes, however, if healers have an issue with only the 1/2 button combo, you can fix that by adjusting the amount of healing they are required to do. One of these issues is that oGCD healing is too strong and the fact you can heal whole fights on just oGCD healing, even in the Savage tier (not necessarily week 1) shows that it is not balanced at all. Again, I am not a healer main, but that is just my view on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navnav
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01-28-2022, 04:35 AMSqwallQuote:
Originally Posted by IruruCece
Those that said they are easy and simple to complete are also the ones shouting they were never hard to do. They even do them out of boredom. While the other side (mainly me) have said they are arbitrary for the sake of just being arbitrary. It was a fun idea in 2.0....but it aged poorly over the years. At times I wonder what it would have been like if we never had 6 positionals, and what systems monk could have developed over the years if we weren't shackled to those designs for so long.
As far as being rude to others, I try to treat everyone with respect. No matter their opinions...because their just opinions. Mine suck just as much as yours do, and that's what makes them an opinion. Context goes along way in the forums, and I believe the way people type gives weight to how they want those opinions to sound. Sunny2008 just can't catch a break. I have tried...and tried....and tried with him/her...but it's come to just putting them on the ignore list after just having sunny2008 just straight up taking it WAY to personal and throwing everything they wanted to at me. I took the high road...and placed them on the ignore list...and haven't "quoted or interacted" with them since. I just can't with that kind of person...I can't. That door goes both ways to...would I feel burnt up because someone blocked me or ignored me....HECK NO. We just go our separate ways and that's the end o fit. Dev team will decide what to do with everything. -
01-28-2022, 04:45 AMSqwallI would be lying if I didn't think it was enough for the removal of positionals after the media tour. I wanted what we have now honestly. I would say I was 60/40 on the fence about the positionals reduced to 4, but I was willing to give it a try and find out for myself. When I saw that they only ones that were left were snap and demolish, I'll admit....I was happy. Even pleased that we still kept something, it seemed "fair" when I heard about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
I also knew that soapbox was going to get quite a bit of wear marks after the patch notes dropped. And it did. I was one of them...but I was excited. Didn't think much about those that were going to lose something...I even took a break from the forums as I did feel somewhat guilty as being the biggest proponent for saying "they gott'a go." Now that I have had time with MNK and the job playstyle I understand that the DEV's were right. The job would have been WAY to busy for everyone....and would FURTHER push it into obscurity given the direction of mechanics.
Hopefully respect is warranted here, and no offense in any of these conversations. I think sometimes people just get to passionate. Myself included. -
01-28-2022, 05:02 AMssunny2008Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqwall
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navnav
Do you guys even remember how it started? About all the bs crusades to remove positionals?
NOONE has been an asshole in first instance. You guys just have been liers. You searched for arguments to get ride of positionals just to cater your own, not to improve the game. You´re just lazy to play them. You didn´t like GL, you didn´t like positionals, heck you didn´t like all what made MNK a MNK, but "you loved the aestethics".
MNK has never been a class for you guys, NEVER! Gameplay-wise it was so far away from what you guys wanted and ppl told you that. Hell, Mikey has told NavNav about 20 times now (atleast 5 times in this thread), that MNK has been the only choice to play if you want a positional-heavy job. Either no answer came or just "Positionals suck, lol."
You guys just have been selfish and you still are. Checking out your stuff and going through all your claims, you don´t even want to main MNK in the first instance and you guys aren´t that great on its execution. You do even claim controversial stuff for whatever reason. You guys had never any intention to look for a compromise or to play another melee which suits your gameplay-choice. Not even NavNav who loves DRG and its positionals, nono... better rework MNK.
So what?? Do you guys really believe you earn some respect after claiming dozens of bs, never agree to disagree and in the end you went into the first EW positional-thread to be like "Hahahahahha just fck you MNK Vets, go play something else now!" ?!
And no, you guys don´t want the best for MNK or the game, you want the best for yourself. More than enough MNK mains lost a class they loved and the game lost another unique option to play. Stop lieing to yourself srsly. Not any MNK main went into another class thread being like "I hate all about the class, please add positionals on it!", NOONE. And serious ppl can accept, when a class isn´t something for them, so they go find another one. And FF14 has more than enough classes, but nono... Ppl who never touched MNK all the way needs to be catered, nonsense, just nonsense...