New Summoner looks really nice, but...

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Originally Posted by Jirah

they will never fix as people really love

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What if—and I'm just wondering here—designing jobs that people love is good, actually?

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

What if—and I'm just wondering here—designing jobs that people love is good, actually?

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Nah you have to design the absolute jankiest job possible, have people cry about the jank, and then have people cry for years on end afterward when you remove said jank because it required "skill".

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

What if—and I'm just wondering here—designing jobs that people love is good, actually?

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This is good, but what about removing things that people love?
I'm going to take MCH as an example since it's where I have the most knowledge:

SB Wildfire gave me a good shot of dopamine to execute, but enabling it throught Flamethrower was crap.
Doing the combo on a 1.5s GCD was fun. Problem is that weaving between 1.5s GCD is very hard if you're Australian or Brasilian.

They changed the enabling of Overheat through a button to push, great!
They removed the combo to replace it with a IQ draining 1 GCD spam, not great. Good thing the GR/Ricochet refresh are there.
They kept the time based Overheat and the need to weave between the 1.5 GCD, not great for our Australian/Brazillian MCH friends.

Is it worth to rework a job to please the most people if during the process you ignore its core playerbase? The ones who've been dedicated to the job and actually spent time to dig and find every problems, making relevant feedback?
Even Bahamut's attacks were fixed so they listened to that feedback.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Is it worth to rework a job to please the most people if during the process you ignore its core playerbase? The ones who've been dedicated to the job and actually spent time to dig and find every problems, making relevant feedback?

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Yes, considering the core base of summoner were the ones who were complaining the loudest that the job was utterly failing in its class fantasy due to its mismatched focus of dots and convoluted mechanics instead of summon magic. They were not ignored, they were finally listened to. The same core playerbase was also cheering the loudest when we saw the details of the rework, only a minority of people are here moaning still that their NASA space simulator job is playable and attractive to normal people now because they’ve been stuck in a bubble for the past decade it seems. Their responses have ranged from hilarious to outlandish and hostile while everyone else has been celebrating the fact that the job is finally where it should be.

When a job that was released 8 years ago manages to upstage both Reaper and Sage in the job trailer and media tour, that’s when you know you’ve succeeded at last. Meanwhile, I guess the old affliction warlock crowd would rather players like me quit the game altogether, they've said it themselves. Hate to break it to them but my main character will go on to main SMN after I finish the msq as Paladin, and I'm boosting the job on at least two more alts. I don't whale this hard very often but after seeing how the job plays now? You better believe I'm willing to spend the money to show SE how in love I am with the 6.0 version of the job.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Yes, considering the core base of summoner were the ones who were complaining the loudest that the job was utterly failing in its class fantasy due to its mismatched focus of dots and convoluted mechanics instead of summon magic. They were not ignored, they were finally listened to. The same core playerbase was also cheering the loudest when we saw the details of the rework, only a minority of people are here moaning still that their NASA space simulator job is playable and attractive to normal people now because they’ve been stuck in a bubble for the past decade it seems. Their responses have ranged from hilarious to outlandish and hostile while everyone else has been celebrating the fact that the job is finally where it should be.

When a job that was released 8 years ago manages to upstage both Reaper and Sage in the job trailer and media tour, that’s when you know you’ve succeeded at last. Meanwhile, I guess the old affliction warlock crowd would rather players like me quit the game altogether, they've said it themselves. Hate to break it to them but my main character will go on to main SMN after I finish the msq as Paladin, and I'm boosting the job on at least two more alts. I don't whale this hard very often but after seeing how the job plays now? You better believe I'm willing to spend the money to show SE how in love I am with the 6.0 version of the job.

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This. I mained SMN from 2.0-4.0 (I did play RDM for most of SB) and played SMN again in 5.0. The entire time I begged for SMN to at the very least, lose the poison magic. It doesn't fit. I would have been fine if they had replaced bio and miasma, with some kind of primal-based elemental DoTs, but this is even better.

This is literally what I was hoping the job would be like since 2.0. Now if we could just get Leviathan, Shiva, and Ramuh, it would be perfect. I'm sure we won't see those until 7.0.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

This. I mained SMN from 2.0-4.0 (I did play RDM for most of SB) and played SMN again in 5.0. The entire time I begged for SMN to at the very least, lose the poison magic. It doesn't fit.

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Forgot Edgar used a gun.
Forgot Dark knights could summon their shadow.
Forgot Sage used flying rods to shot at the ennemies while casting greek named spells.
Forgot Bards uses poisons.
Forgot Warriors could spin like monkeys before slamming the ground.
Forgot Dancers would buff their allies (It was often the opposite, they would debuff)
Forgot BLM had a thunder dot.

And so on.
"It doesn't fit" argument ironically doesn't fit in there.

All jobs use the same base but are reimagine to fit their role, the world of XIV and the Dev team vision.
Plus it would be boring to get carbon copy of jobs from previous game.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Forgot Edgar used a gun.
Forgot Dark knights could summon their shadow.
Forgot Sage used flying rods to shot at the ennemies while casting greek named spells.
Forgot Bards uses poisons.
Forgot Warriors could spin like monkeys before slamming the ground.
Forgot Dancers would buff their allies (It was often the opposite, they would debuff)
Forgot BLM had a thunder dot.

And so on.
"It doesn't fit" argument ironically doesn't fit in there.

All jobs use the same base but are reimagine to fit their role, the world of XIV and the Dev team vision.
Plus it would be boring to get carbon copy of jobs from previous game.

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Except here's the biggest issue every time the 'it doesn't fit' argument comes up. How much it doesn't fit is always 100% in the eye of the beholder and how loud the players get, and then it comes down to the devs to decide what the identity of the job should become. Summoner players real argument wasn't JUST dots being the issue. The general concern almost always boiled down too:

"This job has way too many identities going on, too much pet mechanics, too much DoT upkeep, too much resource management, to long trance play." Etc etc etc... The job was bloated. Wether everyone agreed on what was bloating it, is irrelevant (cause no one did). But most players (and more importantly the Devs themselves) agreed that it was bloated. The dev team specifically said the job had reached a "Breaking point" on what it had going on. Something had to be pruned, and the dev team decided that the easiest thing to take out while still keeping the jobs identity intact was the DoTs (and also the overall pet control, but keeping the flavor of it by basing the entire new theme of the rework on the gems the carbuncles were named after, which I personally find to be pretty cool thematically).

Now we can agree or disagree on if the right thing was removed or not. Personally I love DoTs, and I wanted the Pets to be COMPLETELY axed out of existence, because I ceased to believe that 14 can have a good pet system. But this is still good. It still feels very thematically much like a classic XIV summoner, while also having it's own identity in XIV based on the lore around the Carby's name. The it doesn't fit argument with Summoner was a bit more nuanced then the other jobs, because in reality, Summoner was the one job that even upper level players were asking for things to be removed from, not saved or added too.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

"It doesn't fit" argument ironically doesn't fit in there.

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No one who has a general understanding of how summoners and summon magic work in the Final Fantasy series thinks of a dot poison focused mage when they hear the word “Summoner.” The entire power fantasy of the job revolves around big flashy attacks and powerful entities.

People weren’t asking for a carbon copy, they were asking for thematic consistency. We hear Summoner and think of Rydia, Yuna, and Garnet. Naturally, people want to play something like this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQnHPAzWoAAqI9Q.jpg

We do not, nor have we ever, imagined *this* when we think of summoner:

http://pm1.narvii.com/6089/cf7e5ee0a...08db679_00.jpg

Sadly, up until recently Summoner did in fact feel like a warlock or poison mage, when it should have never been at all. It was aesthetically underwhelming for those of us who know what an actual summoner is and it's gameplay was bad. Crying over old summoner is akin to crying over the loss of tank stance dancing. It's bewildering, but when we point that out we get accused of being casuals or bad at the game and told to leave when we point out the obvious flaws in their logic.

I guess they feel what a lot of us felt in 2013 when they turned one of the most iconic classes in Final Fantasy into a ghost of its former self. Now that it's closer to what it's actually supposed to be, they're all taken by surprise. Their arguments have been torn apart time and time again, and there really is absolutely nothing left to say at this point. Here's one last ancient meme I found, thank goodness come 6.0 it'll be a relic of the past:

https://i.imgur.com/uYXuizD.jpeg

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

We hear Summoner and think of Rydia, Yuna, and Garnet. [/IMG]

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Rydia is a black mage with summons.
Yuna is a white mage with summons.
Garnet is a white mage with summons.

What XIV designed is a mage with summons.
And to not copy on BLM, they chose to focus on dots.

I do agree that SMN currently has mechanics that don't tie very well to each other.
But BRD has both dots and songs, it works. The point stands.
Sure they would've reworked the dots mechanics for SMN.

The rework is and was needed, as new actions happened, SMN was more and more bloated with unrelated mechanics.
Now it only has one mechanic, summoning. There is definitely rooms for anything else.

Oh and your meme is either old or forgot you actually Summon Bahamut and Phoenix. You will still get the gummy egi before you actually summon the big ones.
Finally the topic is not about SMN being a SMN and how your summons look. It's about the job mechanic.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Is it worth to rework a job to please the most people if during the process you ignore its core playerbase?

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Here's the thing: the forums, Reddit, and Twitter don't represent anything like the core playerbase of anything. A small group of people whining on the forums or on YouTube about a change really doesn't mean that the change was bad.

I'm certainly not arguing that every change is good, but the forums tend to foster a disaster mentality of every change being bad (because the game will be more accessible and fun for filthy casuals or something). The game is more successful now than it has ever been before - maybe class changes since ARR/HW/SB are more than 0% responsible for that.

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Originally Posted by Roda

Jesus I didn't even think of that. I guess I just assumed our rotation would be empty where phoenix would be or something... I guess that's what happens when they design our entire kit about being extremely front-loaded.
That's gonna be a huge bummer. :T I really hope they can address that before launch.

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SMN works around 120 burst windows but has a lesser burst window every 60 seconds, which corresponds directly to the overall design of burst windows they announced for all jobs in the game.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Rydia is a black mage with summons.
Yuna is a white mage with summons.
Garnet is a white mage with summons.

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Actually it's the other way around - in their respective games they were specifically the main summoners in their game that played an integral part to the story with their summons and not with their magic. Yuna is not called a high White Mage after all ;P

The summoner we had so far was an Arcanist primarily with added summoning (as if the summons were added through other means like G.F.s, FF7 materia or FF6's magicite system) - which explains why we had spells like Bio, Miasma and Shadow Flare.

That being said, our FFXIV version is now a Summoner with arcanist as secondary role with an added flavour of Garnet's trance summoning style being able to channel parts of the summons as attacks.

I never thought I'd see Yuna described as a "white mage with summons" instead of a summoner, but now I've seen it all. Not like how that was crucial to the entire plot of FFX. Or something. Anyway.

This just shows how disconnected these two worlds are. Yeah, the egis are sticking around for a while longer but after level 90? And the 7.0 grind up to level 100? We're not going to be seeing much of them at all compared to how they used to just be a permanent eye sore anytime Bahamut or Phoenix isn't available.

I will gladly take the new trance style system over managing dots and pets who don't do as they're told. What a mark of skill that was.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Forgot Edgar used a gun.
Forgot Dark knights could summon their shadow.
Forgot Sage used flying rods to shot at the ennemies while casting greek named spells.
Forgot Bards uses poisons.
Forgot Warriors could spin like monkeys before slamming the ground.
Forgot Dancers would buff their allies (It was often the opposite, they would debuff)
Forgot BLM had a thunder dot.

And so on.
"It doesn't fit" argument ironically doesn't fit in there.

All jobs use the same base but are reimagine to fit their role, the world of XIV and the Dev team vision.
Plus it would be boring to get carbon copy of jobs from previous game.

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My point was that 2.0 summoner had the bulk of the job revolve around poison damage over time with summons being a minor part of the kit. 2.0 summoner isn’t even close to the power fantasy that most of us expected.

SE themselves said that they had to put together the non quickly to get it ready for 2.0.

It was the most highly demanded job.

They copy and pasted from WoW a little too hard.

I think people need to stop huffing that Miasma to think Rydia and Yuna are a good reason why poison mage should stay

I mean, we're more in line with Yuna now if you take Dissidia NT into account.

Also, people keep complaining that "the whiners are the reason SMN is changing" which is absolutely wrong and we know it. SMN was rushed and broken from the get-go and as much as the development team tried to salvage or fix it they ended making things worse in another way. Current SMN was decided in SB to not survive ShB so here we are.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

Here's the thing: the forums, Reddit, and Twitter don't represent anything like the core playerbase of anything. A small group of people whining on the forums or on YouTube about a change really doesn't mean that the change was bad.

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1 - Because a minority speaks doesnt means it's a feedback to ignore.
Australians trying to get their own datacenter, raider asking for a different loot system or even for Ultimate difficulty.

2 - No one is arguing that the changes to SMN (And I'm bringing MCH as well) are bad.
But there is people complaining that SQEX removed too much from these jobs, including things that worked before.

Also people arguing over Yuna's role... Remember we are not talking about the lore but about the gameplay.
Yuna was effectively the only character who could access healing&protection spells (Putting aside endgame&alternate sphere grid). White mage/Black mage with summons, Summoner with white magic/Black magic, you can do as much mental gymnastic as you want, they had both.
Like how certain FF allowed you to have a primary and a secondary job.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

I think people need to stop huffing that Miasma to think Rydia and Yuna are a good reason why poison mage should stay

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Yes, this is mental gymnastic as well. One spell doesn't justify the existence of dots as a core mechanic.
SMN dots were poorly handled in ShB but they remained a good part of the job identity in previous expansion.
DoTs deserved a place because it was XIV's SMN interpretation.

Something like Tri Disaster (Would need to be renamed) to refresh after each summon could have been a cool mechanic without adding too much.
GNB gets 2 dots and it's nowhere in Squall's or Lightning's kits.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Dancer and current Machinist are some of the more fun classes in game. 80/20 rule. If reworking these classes to be palatable to most people means the loss of the old mains who for whatever reason were highly attached to the outdated design, so be it. For every old main lost the job gains 10 new ones, with a lot of them being players who otherwise wouldn't have touched the job before because it was in such a weird place compared to the others in game. Old machinist and summoner were at constant war with themselves in terms of gameplay mechanics and class fantasy, until they reached the absolute breaking point where the devs got together and collectively went, "Yeah, there's no way we can do this anymore."

The most logical progression for summoner in 7.0 would be to obtain new primals to summon whether they be in the form of demis, one-off attacks like Ifrit/Garuda/Titan, or one offs that eventually come to replace Fester and Painflare. I do not consider 6.0 summoner an afk job by any means but if I have to choose that between the "nuance" of dot management and pets that don't do what you tell them to do, then me and the majority of the playerbase will choose the job that is simply more fun. I have always found Black Mage far easier to play than 5.0 summoner, because the class has consistently good flow to it instead of being...a mess.

The reality is that summoner was stagnant for far longer than it should have been because they kept doubling down on the dot portion and leaving the summons for last. There is no good reason why their capstone ability in Heavensward was Dreadwyrm Trance instead of a summon. Bahamut in Stormblood took forever to build up to and the same could be said for Pheonix in Shadowbringers, with nothing but egis and dots in between. This makes machinist's old overheating mechanic look better by comparison, a truly astonishing feat.

"Carpal tunnel" and "warlock" summoner will not be missed.

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This is the reality. For every old main that quits there will just be more people coming in to take their spot and enjoy what is given. I feel for the people who enjoyed old iterations of jobs, but unless there are mass complaints on certain designs there's no reason for the developers to care when so many other people are enjoying the new changes. I've learned this lesson playing other games. Most of the time being an old timer doesn't do you any justice, you just have to move on.

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Originally Posted by Donoman

This is the reality. For every old main that quits there will just be more people coming in to take their spot and enjoy what is given. I feel for the people who enjoyed old iterations of jobs, but unless there are mass complaints on certain designs there's no reason for the developers to care when so many other people are enjoying the new changes. I've learned this lesson playing other games. Most of the time being an old timer doesn't do you any justice, you just have to move on.

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You also have to be able to form a positive relationship with new players. One of the most damaging things that can happen to a community is people deciding new people who are excited to play and have a unique perspective on problems as new players are just complainers who need to 'get good' or 'play a different class.' You don't complain if you don't care, after all, and SMN got a LOT of complaints.

SMN was an interesting job with a cool gamefeel, it wasn't like MNK where the attachment to how it worked was purely based on an exclusionary sort of joy at other people not being able to enjoy it. But SMN is one of the jobs that really needs to instantly be a Job that evokes a 'Wowzers, I am really a final fantasy summoner' feeling, because it was a job so heavily associated with the FF brand as a whole, and old SMN didn't cut the mustard there because of just how little thematic and visual emphasis it put on actual summons.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I mean all of the media tour people I’ve seen said the new iteration feels really good to play. The three primal summons are all slightly different.

Not to mention “summon Garuda, ifrit and titan” are now all actual spells now.

With current summoner you might swap between Garuda and ifrit in a dungeon for trash vs, the boss, but now you’ll be pressing each of those buttons once per minute.

I like that all three casters are very different from one another.

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The question is how long does it feel good to play. I can't shake the feeling that after a few weeks of playing at level 90, the luster of the new gameplay will wear off and the job get boring to play. Much like 5.0 mch after it's rework.

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Originally Posted by SkyCake

I was watching some video tour videos and was kind of sadly-laughing at one of the suggested openers for SMN. It was mostly just mashing one button and then weaving in the "special" button. Throw in some Aether "management" and that was pretty much the whole job. Guess it was pretty to look at, though.

Maybe changing the name and animations would be nice. But, I don't agree that removing the only aspect of the job that doesn't basically force you to push is a good thing.

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So I made this point on a Reddit thread about Larry's newest video about summoner. I got downvoted to hell because I called out this BS. You are literally pressing very little buttons because everything got shifted to GCD casts instead of having a balance between GCDs and oGCDs with SMN.

You literally have 6 actions that you are using once a minute.
Your summons, ED, and ruin4. The rest of the time your using ruin3/tri-disaster and gem shine/brilliance spam with Astral Flow sprinkled in.
However it seems that you aren't using ruin3 very little nce you unlock gem shine so we literally traded one spam for another....cool

I'll give it a chance, but my faith in the job designers after 5.0, is not high.
If visuals does it for you guys, more power to you but I need depth to a class. Something that makes me think while I play. I just would hate to give up my main from since FF11 and since the beginning of 2.0 early access

I found this new Larryzaur video (from earlier today) on the subject to be rather illuminating and valuable.

I encourage those with reservations for the rework to give it a watch. It's not even 8 minutes long.

https://youtu.be/-uk-4VaET6A

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I found this new Larryzaur video (from earlier today) on the subject to be rather illuminating and valuable.

I encourage those with reservations for the rework to give it a watch. It's not even 8 minutes long.

https://youtu.be/-uk-4VaET6A

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I find it tough to take the biggest summoner fanboy seriously on a matter like this.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I found this new Larryzaur video (from earlier today) on the subject to be rather illuminating and valuable.

I encourage those with reservations for the rework to give it a watch. It's not even 8 minutes long.

https://youtu.be/-uk-4VaET6A

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This is a good video, he really tries to compare the current filler phase to the new SMN and button diversity.
It somehow shows that SQEX learned about players getting bored from spamming the same button 5 times in a row... Hopefully they learned.

I remain on my take:
Wait for the release to get a good grasp of the job and provide feedback.
The rework was inevitable since the 2.0, it had to happen at some point.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I find it tough to take the biggest summoner fanboy seriously on a matter like this.

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I mean, aren't people who hate the new changes also big summoner fans? They're upset because they're having their beloved job taken away?

Edit: Regarding my personal feelings on the class, I appreciate that looking at it, there is a resonance in the class as it move up in levels. The playstyle stays largely the same, with some mechanical twists and flourishes added in, as opposed to the entire job changing it's identity every ten levels.

The people who are the biggest summoner fans have largely been celebrating across all social media platforms that they're no longer poison mages with disobedient pets, like Larryzaur, etc. Their beloved job wasn't taken away, it was finally added to the game after 8 years. The same less than 10 people however continue complaining that they're job has lost its "complexity!" and "knowing how to manage my pet ghosting was a sign of skill!" They represent an extreme minority who would rather hold the class back rather than see it improve further on these new systems which people by and large enjoy.

New summoner is easy to understand and straightforward with enough decision making involved to make one need to think ahead when it comes to more difficult fights, it isn't braindead as some would say nor is it "casuals ruining the job." Thank you to Larryzaur for putting that video together and debunking what little remained of these bizarre arguments.

Edit: 4.4k likes to 56 dislikes. I think its clear where most people stand on this issue.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

New summoner is easy to understand and straightforward with enough decision making involved to make one need to think ahead when it comes to more difficult fights, it isn't braindead as some would say nor is it "casuals ruining the job." Thank you to Larryzaur for putting that video together and debunking what little remained of these bizarre arguments.

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The previous points stands, it seems you're really difficult to accept valid criticisms.
Likes and dislikes is not a valid metric, a lot of people are just here for Larry's videos, not for the SMN rework itself.

The job still lost a lot that some SMN mains loved, you need to understand that.
Taking MCH as an example again, Wildfire rework, how it was a dopaming shot in HW/SB and how IQ draining it is now.

Again since you can't seem to understand it:
The rework is welcome and necessary. Its playerbase is free to have concerns and to be disappointed about certain aspects being gone.
Claiming your feedback is the only rightful one and the others are wrong and bizarre is a terrible behavior.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

words

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If the like to dislike ratio isn’t indicative of how most people feel about this, summoner mains included, I don’t know what is. Period. It's not just my feedback, it's the feedback of thousands of people who feel the same but don't voice it because it's so glaringly obvious that there's no point in explaining. Water is wet. Warlock summoner was bad. Real summoner is good. The end.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

If the like to dislike ratio isn’t indicative of how most people feel about this, summoner mains included, I don’t know what is. Period. It's not just my feedback, it's the feedback of thousands of people who feel the same but don't voice it because it's so glaringly obvious that there's no point in explaining. Water is wet. Warlock summoner was bad. Real summoner is good. The end.

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Saying "The end" doesn't end anything, that only works in fairy tales and Shrek.

Xenosys videos on DRK have 1k likes and 33 dislikes. Does it means it's the absolute truth?
If you paid attention, most of Larryzaur videos ranges between 2.6k likes and 4k with double digit dislikes. (With SGE/RPR videos getting more attractions)
That includes Dark Knight and Scholar. But on the other hand you have Xenosys ratio that conflicts, so are people happy or unhappy?

Likes and dislikes are about the video itself, not the job. Likes and dislikes are a way to promote and support a channel on youtube, not a vote to express your opinion.
Ever heard of "If you like this content, smash the like button to support the channel?"

Hint: Go check the ratio of DRK's video and comment section, you can figure the rest yourself.
I'm baffled we need to adress that point as well.

I wanted to keep participating in this discussion but when the main argument is "YouTube likes", well... Let's say I'm not surprised some people don't understand some things that I would consider easy to understand.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I find it tough to take the biggest summoner fanboy seriously on a matter like this.

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I double checked through the video and it definitely feels like he's choosing very arbitrary cutoffs for what counts for how many buttons you need to press. Like when he's describing how many buttons you need to hit "5 or more times per minute" and says only ruin 3 on existing summoner, but that excludes Egi Assaults and Ruin 4. Or how he doesn't seem to count the DoT skills as actions at all. It all feels very suspicious.

Honestly, a lot of SMN mains will continue as SMN mains, myself included, and either like it or love it. For those that don't like the changes then there are other jobs to play. Anyone who has followed the change (not evolution) of the job will have known this was coming from a technical, mechanical level.

Thematically, I personally didn't mind the SMN in XIV pre-6.0. It was odd but it was still SMN as defined in this game. I'm happy for the theme in 6.0 but less for the big booms and more for the interconnected nature of the summoner and their entities.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the devs knew in late Stormblood that current SMN was dead and would need changed in 6.0 and now it is. That's fact. If you like new SMN, great! If you don't, i hope you find a job that you can enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I double checked through the video and it definitely feels like he's choosing very arbitrary cutoffs for what counts for how many buttons you need to press. Like when he's describing how many buttons you need to hit "5 or more times per minute" and says only ruin 3 on existing summoner, but that excludes Egi Assaults and Ruin 4. Or how he doesn't seem to count the DoT skills as actions at all. It all feels very suspicious.

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You can only use each egi assault 2x a minute, Ruin 4 is only really regularly used in Bahamut and used randomly as situation requires (which it often doesn't) and if you're hard casting your dots 5 times a minute then you have far more issues to take care of first.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I double checked through the video and it definitely feels like he's choosing very arbitrary cutoffs for what counts for how many buttons you need to press. Like when he's describing how many buttons you need to hit "5 or more times per minute" and says only ruin 3 on existing summoner, but that excludes Egi Assaults and Ruin 4. Or how he doesn't seem to count the DoT skills as actions at all. It all feels very suspicious.

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There is nothing suspicious about it. You don't use those skills at all more then 5 times per minute, at most you're using them 4 if you are playing the job right. You should only need to hard cast your DoTs very rarely, mostly relying on Tri-Disaster resets. Nothing about his video is inaccurate and he's approaching it from not only a raw numbers high level standpoint, but also a overall 'class feel' standpoint.

Also 'biggest summoner fanboy' is being more then a little disingenuous. Yes the dude loves Summoner. He loves the game in general. He's beaten multiple ultimate fights and on more then just Summoner. He plays all casters and Samurai to a very high level that more then probably 99% of the players in this game don't play at. Honestly he's one of the few influencers who I would have trusted to give a proper view, as most of them are more casual (like the rest of NEST) or don't play Summoner much at all (Mr. Happy, Xenos, etc etc).

Yeah, I trust him. I think the fear is mostly coming from the replacement of skills in the phases. He said that all of the phases feel distinct and based off of his footage, that seems really accurate.

Current summoner is mostly spamming ruin during Bahamut, doing 1 2 1 2 during phoenix, and occasionally hard casting dots. Egi assaults were ok, but still very clunky. I would trade dots for this iteration in a heartbeat.

Not to mention, summon Garuda, Ifrit, and Titan are all buttons that we now click once per minute.

Current summoner is ifrit for ST, Garuda for trash, titan for occasional shield.

Honestly it doesn't matter anymore because SE made the decision for us.

Who knows, maybe everyone will quit there main job to play Summoner instead because of the changes. Maybe half the SMN main won't quit because they removed pets and dots. Or maybe SMN will be the newest job with the lowest number of people playing it.
Guess we'll find out a year from now.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I double checked through the video and it definitely feels like he's choosing very arbitrary cutoffs for what counts for how many buttons you need to press. Like when he's describing how many buttons you need to hit "5 or more times per minute" and says only ruin 3 on existing summoner, but that excludes Egi Assaults and Ruin 4. Or how he doesn't seem to count the DoT skills as actions at all. It all feels very suspicious.

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His entire video is built on false premises. It makes sense, though, his job is to build up pre-expansion hype. No one is going to give real criticism to anything - new jobs in particular - at this time. Honest and relevant feedback will only come later.

The biggest criticism about SMN is not the lack of buttons, it's the lack of mechanics. It's about how old SMN got several things removed without a replacement and how the few things that survived were nerfed to irrelevance (Aetherflow and Ruin IV). He conveniently doesn't mention any of this and bases his video on a random "let's see who pushes more buttons in a minute".

Once you remember he is an influencer first and then a SMN player, it just makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Honestly it doesn't matter anymore because SE made the decision for us.

Who knows, maybe everyone will quit there main job to play Summoner instead because of the changes. Maybe half the SMN main won't quit because they removed pets and dots. Or maybe SMN will be the newest job with the lowest number of people playing it.
Guess we'll find out a year from now.

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Expect the MCH scenario.
More people that never touched SMN will play SMN. And that's SQEX goal.

I have to admit I'm myself much more attracted by the job and hate the current clunk of gummies.
SMN is a good favorite of the devs, I doubt it will be in the lower damage part even if its gameplay is equivalent to MCH now.

SMN will probably remain in a good spot in the raid scene since they keep the res and their utility.

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Originally Posted by rewd

His entire video is built on false premises. It makes sense, though, his job is to build up pre-expansion hype. No one is going to give real criticism to anything - new jobs in particular - at this time. Honest and relevant feedback will only come later.

The biggest criticism about SMN is not the lack of buttons, it's the lack of mechanics. It's about how old SMN got several things removed without a replacement and how the few things that survived were nerfed to irrelevance (Aetherflow and Ruin IV). He conveniently doesn't mention any of this and bases his video on a random "let's see who pushes more buttons in a minute".

Once you remember he is an influencer first and then a SMN player, it just makes sense.

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What false premises? Current summoner is incredibly clunky. There’s a lot of buttons that’s you barely use. Most of the mechanics don’t even interact with one another. It’s not even that complex.

The job is based around having to hard cast to the dots as little as possible.

I believe that the changes that have been made are something you need to experience first hand before you make a judgement call like that.

Even just seeing the gameplay, the three primal phases are all distinct. Even if the rotation within those phases are simple, the phases are short enough where you’re moving to the next one.

There’s also the fact that while we lost bio and miasma and bane, we gained summon Garuda, ifrit, and titan as actual spells. They do damage and you’ll be summoning them once a minute.

How often are you actually summoning ifrit, Garuda and titan right now?

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

This is a good video, he really tries to compare the current filler phase to the new SMN and button diversity.
It somehow shows that SQEX learned about players getting bored from spamming the same button 5 times in a row... Hopefully they learned.

I remain on my take:
Wait for the release to get a good grasp of the job and provide feedback.
The rework was inevitable since the 2.0, it had to happen at some point.

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This is one of the few times I disagree with Larry.

My problem with his logic is he really not counting egi assaults, fester, ed, and ruin 4s with ruin 3 in 5.0 smn filler phrases.

Ultimately what 6.0 filler phrase will be like is gem shine or brilliance spam, astral flow and your 3 summon buttons. You literally traded one spam for another.

And at least with current summoner, you can weave a few more oGCDS in

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Originally Posted by Sequora

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I've already said it: the complaint is not about buttons, so building the entire video on that premise is dishonest and doesn't really prove or disprove anything. I'll just address some things he said. I don't want to rewatch the video, so if I'm misremembering something, let me know:

Old SMN is static VS New SMN is fluid and varied
Every job is, at its core, static. Some jobs have more variety than others (mainly because of procs) but they are all, fundamentally, static. Old SMN will always start with an Egi, then Bahamut, then Egi, then Phoenix and so on. However, the so-called filler phases are indeed fluid. These phases exist under the assumptions that you are, more or less, free to do what you want, as long as you fulfill some conditions. Use oGCDs, don't lose EA charges, don't overcap Ruin IV and have enough stacks for Bahamut. How you get there is not as important, as long as you do get there. Your use of EA and Ruin IV will depend on the amount of movement needed in that portion of the fight, or lack thereof. Reducing them to "hurr durr Ruin III spam all the time" is very dishonest and just plain false.

New SMN has variety because you decide the order you summon your Egis/Primals, but this only means that once you (or more correctly, the guide you are reading) figure out the best order, that's what you are going to follow. Garuda at xy minute because the boss is going to jump soon after, Ifrit at xz minute because you have to be out of melee range soon after and so on. You are still going to do the same thing over and over again.

More on new SMN's "variance"
He fanboys about the primal phases being sooo different (something I definitely don't agree with) but he purposefully doesn't mention how Demis are actually a step back. Now they are fundamentally the same. The problem with new SMN is that it is too same-y. Take Titan, Garuda, Bahamut and Phoenix as an example. The core gameplay of 4 out of 5 phases is spamming a single button, which is always an instacast. The only meaningful choice in this big part of your rotation is Slipstream and that's it. Movement is not an issue and you barely have oGCDs to weave. Pretty much every job in the game has buffs to keep up, or debuffs to keep up, resources to manage and balance, procs to react to... SMN has none of that. Being same-y isn't necessarily a problem, I would consider BLM same-y too as the job basically revolves around spamming as many Fire IV as humanly possible. The thing is that BLM has timers to keep up, resources to manage, movement to be concerned about, procs to react to (and this adds real variety). What about new SMN?

You can remove clunkiness and still give a job stuff to do. This is what some people don't like about new SMN and it's really, really not hard to understand. It's same-y and barren.