The tawdry female bosses are tiresome, and we could do with more male fanservice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

Posted this. Then posted picture of Ellie as an example of aforementioned western dev's "pretty freaking fuggly with B cups". Literal galaxy brain argument.




They are two different genres of games. Pull characters out of Japanese horror/survival games and you'll see a lot more drab or average looking characters (see Resident Evil, Siren, Silent Hill). Likewise, pull a fantasy character out of a fantasy Western game and they'll likely be more boxom and beautiful (insert every Western bikini chain mail lady here... like the ladies from WoW).

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Well again, wasn't really referring to Ellie in particular as ugly but she certainly isn't attractive and wasn't made to be which was my point of western moving away from making attractive females. Saying someone isn't attractive doesn't mean you're calling them ugly.
I should said something when I posted the photo's though, about a comparison so can't really blame you guys for jumping on it and assume I'm talking about ellie.

But seriously, relax. You're foaming out the mouth with all the snark and passive aggressive and throwing assumptions at me like you're trying to earn some clout. But this is the net we're talking about.


Yeah even from RE, they still don't look how TLOU2 female cast does and wow isn't a good example seeing how it was made before revealing female amour really became an issue and how western really started moving away from making females too sexy.
Really, the only western game I can think of that still went with it and actually sticked to their guns was blizzard with OW(though they did change tracers victory pose because the massive amount of outcry its too sexy) and The Witcher.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Then why say this


and then choose that picture?
It did seem to be your main point.

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There is a tendency from western games to make female characters look like a man and to remove feminine traits. Officially, is to make it more realistic and on par with your average "Jane" but I doubt it. Sometimes they use real actors, for male characters they keep said actor looks intact, but for females, is usually changed and no one can't tell me that a woman doesn't look like a "real" woman.

Characters at TLoU 2, at least body-wise, look like they are supposed to. Face wise I stand by my first point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Driavna

There is a tendency from western games to make female characters look like a man and to remove feminine traits. Officially, is to make it more realistic and on par with your average "Jane" but I doubt it. Sometimes they use real actors, for male characters they keep said actor looks intact, but for females, is usually changed and no one can't tell me that a woman doesn't look like a "real" woman.

Characters at TLoU 2, at least body-wise, look like they are supposed to. Face wise I stand by my first point.

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Just because you don't find the characters particularly attractive doesn't mean they "look like a man". Abbys body and face are definitely based on 2 different people.. but they're both women.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Just because you don't find the characters particularly attractive doesn't mean they "look like a man". Abbys body and face are definitely based on 2 different people.. but they're both women.

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Looking like a man does not have anything to do with finding a character attractive but the way it looks based on masculine/feminine traits. But perhaps masculine will be a more accurate word.

As a personal request don't assume stuff I haven't say. I never talked about being attractive, I talk about how they look.

Bonus: To me, Abby is the more appealing character in the hot mess that it is TLoU 2.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Looking like a man does not have anything to do with finding a character attractive but the way it looks based on masculine/feminine traits. But perhaps masculine will be a more accurate word.

As a personal request don't assume stuff I haven't say. I never talked about being attractive, I talk about how they look.

Bonus: To me, Abby is the more appealing character in the hot mess that it is TLoU 2.

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What masculine traits do the female characters in TLoU2 have?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

What masculine traits do the female characters in TLoU2 have?

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Abby for sure and before you say "Well shes modeled after a female"
Saying someone is masculine doesn't mean someone is a man or we're calling said person a man. Being Masculine or feminine has nothing to do with gender.

Though I'm done with this argument as we're derailing the thread because we're not even talking about the point of the thread now.

I don't have any comparative of TLoU at hand so, if that ok with you, I will use another recent game to illustrate my point:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EE4EeoMW...pg&name=medium

https://gamespot1.cbsistatic.com/upl...1.02.37.94.png

There is something wrong with masculine females or feminine males? No, and I find really cool the character to the right of the second SS, similar to how I find Kuja a cool character too.

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Abby for sure and before you say "Well shes modeled after a female"
Saying someone is masculine doesn't mean someone is a man or we're calling said person a man. Being Masculine or feminine has nothing to do with gender.

Though I'm done with this argument as we're derailing the thread because we're not even talking about the point of the thread now.

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So.. your point in the thread was pointless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Driavna

I don't have any comparative of TLoU at hand so, if that ok with you, I will use another recent game to illustrate my point:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EE4EeoMW...pg&name=medium

https://gamespot1.cbsistatic.com/upl...1.02.37.94.png

There is something wrong with masculine females or feminine males? No, and I find really cool the character to the right of the second SS, similar to how I find Kuja a cool character too.

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I asked for TLoU2 because it was brought up and YOU cited the faces. I'm surprised you cannot think of any examples.
Then why complain?

There is nothing wrong with making varied appearances in a game, especially if they are an attempt at making the characters more realistic (most people don't look as attractive as your average video game main characters).

So what was the problem? Western developers make them look more real so.. what? OMG it's pandering to the people who don't like exaggerated attractiveness?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

So.. your point in the thread was pointless.

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Eh? How so? not sure what me saying this has to do with my point being pointless. Lol.
All I said was masculine doesn't mean someone is a man. That doesn't invalidate my point sooo....?
Your reply to me was pointless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

So.. your point in the thread was pointless.



I asked for TLoU2 because it was brought up and YOU cited the faces. I'm surprised you cannot think of any examples.
Then why complain?

There is nothing wrong with making varied appearances in a game, especially if they are an attempt at making the characters more realistic (most people don't look as attractive as your average video game main characters).

So what was the problem? Western developers make them look more real so.. what? OMG it's pandering to the people who don't like exaggerated attractiveness?

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Since you are ignoring what I'm saying and still forcing your points of view on me, even if I already stated that I never talked about how attractive a character is, I will say this: will be good for you to notice that you are the one stating that masculine females are less attractive because of pototo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Eh? How so? not sure what me saying this has to do with my point being pointless. Lol.
All I said was masculine doesn't mean someone is a man. That doesn't invalidate my point sooo....?
Your reply to me was pointless.

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You refuse to further discuss your point as you said we're getting off track.. so if elaborating your point isn't relevant, why bother?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Since you are ignoring what I'm saying and still forcing your points of view on me, even if I already stated that I never talked about how attractive a character is, I will say this: will be good for you to notice that you are the one stating that masculine females are less attractive because of pototo.

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When Did I ever say that masculine females ARE less attractive, I asked why you thought it was a detriment. I can be big enough to say maybe that was taking your post in the wrong direction, however I'd also appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. I am not ignoring what you said, I'm saying YOU originally cited a game as containing something which you now cannot find or cannot be bothered to find examples of.

Again.. what is the problem with having female characters with non-conventional attractive appearances. I am still waiting for your REASON for even griping about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

You refuse to further discuss your point as you said we're getting off track.. so if elaborating your point isn't relevant, why bother?

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Because their is nothing else to discuss? Just because I'm done with the debate doesn't mean my point now is invalid, just because I don't want to go back and forth.
Many Western Dev making their females intentionally less attractive is already a known thing to please the journalist since they mark down games score for having revealing females.

As seen with Mortal Kombat. The only big one I know about with actual proof they make the females not that good looking on purpose and dress them head to toe while the guys stay half naked with most their gear, they changed it though to make the females more attractive because people complained about it(the actual faces, not the outfits).
Like with cassie and sonya. Because Cassie at first, looked older than sonya who is her mother lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

just because I don't want to go back and forth.

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So you just want to talk AT people.. not with people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Many Western Dev making their females intentionally less attractive is already a known thing to please the journalist since they mark down games score for having revealing females.

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Just because you say something doesn't mean it is so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

As seen with Mortal Kombat. The only big one I know about with actual proof they make the females not that good looking on purpose and dress them head to toe while the guys stay half naked with most their gear, they changed it though to make the females more attractive because people complained about it(the actual faces, not the outfits).
Like with cassie and sonya. Because Cassie at first, looked older than sonya who is her mother lol.

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I see a lot of rage but no "Proof". They seem to have listened when people complained and changed a couple characters but their original reason for making the characters less "attractive" was that it was more realistic. Not that they wanted them "ugly" just real. So what proof is there? They made them less comically exaggerated. True. They made them "ugly", .. personal preference.

The thing is we don't have the same aesthetic in western countries and in asia (Especially Japan, Taiwan and Korea).

Attractive men, if we consider K-Pop and J-pop singer, or mangas, will be often androgynous if not feminine. Back in my childhood, Saint Seiya male heroes were considered as effeminate. In many case, only bullies are depicted as manly/muscular based on western standard.

Consider Shibuya, do you imagine western men wearing make-up and flashy hair-cuts as you can see there?

In western countries, androgynous will rather be masculine, in many place in Asia, androgynous will be rather feminine. It is not only western countries will try to look more realistic, it is we don't share the same aesthetic standards.

Because of gender matters and politics in western countries, characters will be depicted a way we can consider as androgynous masculine or masculine. Designers will avoid to make a really feminine woman.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I see a lot of rage but no "Proof". They seem to have listened when people complained and changed a couple characters but their original reason for making the characters less "attractive" was that it was more realistic. Not that they wanted them "ugly" just real. So what proof is there? They made them less comically exaggerated. True. They made them "ugly", .. personal preference.

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Just gonna say: when has Mortal Kombat ever been worried about being "realistic"?

Just kind of seems a bit convenient that MK has had the same characters, looking some variant of the same way for 28 years then suddenly after a certain YouTube con artist came around claiming that "everything is sexist, everything is racist and everthing is homophobic and we have to point it all out" that the characters now have to be more "realistic".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Just because you say something doesn't mean it is so.

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Uhh... mass effect? They outright changed the female MC so she's not as attractive from the actual model they got her looks from.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I see a lot of rage but no "Proof". They seem to have listened when people complained and changed a couple characters but their original reason for making the characters less "attractive" was that it was more realistic. Not that they wanted them "ugly" just real. So what proof is there? They made them less comically exaggerated. True. They made them "ugly", .. personal preference.

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Not sure where you're seeing rage but ok?
You do realize that's bs right? because if that was the case. Why are the males still not fully covered in armor like the females? why are they still comically exaggerated?. Don't read things at face value or do you believe everything a dev or PR tell you? They can't just say "oh yeah we changed the females from wearing what they use to because the SJW and the gaming journalist don't like it anymore" Its just PR talk to limit the backlash they would have gotten if they were truthful.

Mortal kombat is a game where you use magic powers and break bones and still keep going, you think them out of everybody would suddenly care about realism in females? no they just don't want to get bad press. Because in today standards those things don't fly in the US and that's a fact.

Also you keep saying ugly.
Not attractive doesn't mean ugly, you're just saying things to fit your agenda to further your argument. Please.

stuff like this sometime made me wonder why journalist on the west is so aggressive toward gaming (technically everything but we are talking about video game so i stick with that)

in japan (in asia in fact) i almost never hear this kind of talk at least not outright public, japan game dev like senran kagura can make their game as lewd as possible and not single journalist will outright say "this is absurd" or "this is downright offensive", and general response is pretty much... calm, yeah some people will say some stuff but usually will die down in day or two and... thats about it.

meanwhile on the west you create a game which does not have a person with color on it and they get attack from all direction.

culture difference is really scary sometimes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joven

Just gonna say: when has Mortal Kombat ever been worried about being "realistic"?

Just kind of seems a bit convenient that MK has had the same characters, looking some variant of the same way for 28 years then suddenly after a certain YouTube con artist came around claiming that "everything is sexist, everything is racist and everthing is homophobic and we have to point it all out" that the characters now have to be more "realistic".

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I have no idea which youtuber you're talking about. But yeah MK isn't really known for being realistic, sure. But this doesn't mean it can never be changed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Uhh... mass effect? They outright changed the female MC so she's not as attractive from the actual model they got her looks from.

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again do you have anything other than "they made her look different and people didn't think it was attractive"?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Not sure where you're seeing rage but ok?

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Not you, all the articles I can find about this "proof" are just gamers raging because their favorite over made up and cleavage bearing character was covered up and changed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

You do realize that's bs right? because if that was the case. Why are the males still not fully covered in armor like the females? why are they still comically exaggerated?. Don't read things at face value or do you believe everything a dev or PR tell you? They can't just say "oh yeah we changed the females from wearing what they use to because the SJW and the gaming journalist don't like it anymore" Its just PR talk to limit the backlash they would have gotten if they were truthful.

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Are they? Is a shirtless dood in a fight all that weird? If they never said it and it's all just gamer speculation and complaints it's hardly "proof". YES they look different. Sure that's provable. "ugly" again.. is subjective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Mortal kombat is a game where you use magic powers and break bones and still keep going, you think them out of everybody would suddenly care about realism in females? no they just don't want to get bad press. Because in today standards those things don't fly in the US and that's a fact.

Also you keep saying ugly.
Not attractive doesn't mean ugly, you're just saying things to fit your agenda to further your argument. Please.

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I'm saying ugly because that's what people in all the articles I was reading said. I also said "less attractive" what other synonyms would you like me to use?

In a survival game, we can't expect a girl or woman to be dressed as if she was going for a party XD

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

...

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Rather than ugly? Trite? Banal? Mundane?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gumas

...

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It is their culture. They will never be as harsh as western people can be. They consider it is unpolite and even contemptible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I have no idea which youtuber you're talking about. But yeah MK isn't really known for being realistic, sure. But this doesn't mean it can never be changed.

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Look up Anita Sarkeesian. She was a YouTuber with a channel called Tropes vs Women where she basically got paid a lot of money to make up BS about how every time a woman is featured in a video game it's to demean and shame them. She even managed to consult on games like Mirror's Edge 2 (the game sucked because they dumbed it down and it was broken. Which is sad because I liked the first one) and Mass Effect Andromeda (which had a whole bevvy of issues). I even heard she had a small hand in the Last of Us 2 (though unsubstantiated). She accrued a lot of money and then just disappeared like a fart in a whirlwind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

cut

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If its subjective then there is no point to keep going and you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Thanks for admitting it.

And a shirtless overly buff dude with monster teeth that has giant stabber that come out her arms that gets his skull cracked open and still keep going totally isn't weird at all, "realism." /s
The fact that you see nothing wrong with they said regarding why they changed the females but left the males alone..I can't tell if you're just being willfully obtuse or as I said before, you're just arguing for the sake of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joven

Look up Anita Sarkeesian. She was a YouTuber with a channel called Tropes vs Women where she basically got paid a lot of money to make up BS about how every time a woman is featured in a video game it's to demean and shame them. She even managed to consult on games like Mirror's Edge 2 (the game sucked because they dumbed it down and it was broken. Which is sad because I liked the first one) and Mass Effect Andromeda (which had a whole bevvy of issues). I even heard she had a small hand in the Last of Us 2 (though unsubstantiated). She accrued a lot of money and then just disappeared like a fart in a whirlwind.

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If you think she is the sole reason for things being less hyper sexualized in gaming.. I dunno.. little tinfoil hatty. She was not a reasonable voice, I'll give you that, but she wasn't particularly well received by all developers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

If its subjective then there is no point to keep going and you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Thanks for admitting it.

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Yes.. it's entirely subjective, so WHY bring it up?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Stopped making attractive female characters and really only make the males attractive while all the females tend to be pretty freaking fuggly with B cups to make sure its not too sexy because the "NOOO HER BACK WILL HURT" meme.

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Considering attractiveness is subjective how are they "fugly"? Why does it matter that all the characters are what you consider "attractive"?

I wasn't the one who made the original assertion!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

And a shirtless overly buff dude with monster teeth that has giant stabber that come out her arms that gets his skull cracked open and still keep going totally isn't weird at all, "realism." /s
The fact that you see nothing wrong with they said regarding why they changed the females but left the males alone..I can't tell if you're just being willfully obtuse or as I said before, you're just arguing for the sake of it.

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And we have people consistently living through life threatening injuries during the game as well.. however this doesn't mean we cant make the people look a little more human and less comic book fantasy. They decidedly did NOT leave the guys alone. They all have the same "realistic" face aesthetic the women do. Considering most of them started out with reasonably "normal" fighting clothes I don't see why they'd get that much of a change anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

If you think she is the sole reason for things being less hyper sexualized in gaming.. I dunno.. little tinfoil hatty. She was not a reasonable voice, I'll give you that, but she wasn't particularly well received by all developers.

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While she isn't the sole reason, she was the most persistent and vocal.

I wouldn't say gaming has ever been hyper sexualized even before now and I've been gaming since the mid '90s. There have been instances of it yes, but those generally were/are games that actually try to be in your face about it, like Mortal Kombat used to. The majority of games just want to be games with attractive female characters. It's just that people only focus on those few examples and try to claim it's the norm. It's the same vein as the violence causing mass shootings nonsense.

If you're interested I would suggest looking into Gamergate. That's really where the whole thing started.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STl7-_f4_eA

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

You refuse to further discuss your point as you said we're getting off track.. so if elaborating your point isn't relevant, why bother?




When Did I ever say that masculine females ARE less attractive, I asked why you thought it was a detriment. I can be big enough to say maybe that was taking your post in the wrong direction, however I'd also appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. I am not ignoring what you said, I'm saying YOU originally cited a game as containing something which you now cannot find or cannot be bothered to find examples of.

Again.. what is the problem with having female characters with non-conventional attractive appearances. I am still waiting for your REASON for even griping about it.

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My point was about western devs representing females as men, then I corrected myself and use the word masculine. I did mention this also happening with TLoU2. When asked for an example I said I did not have any at hand and linked something else, still related to my main point: western devs representing females with masculine traits. Is up to you to decide if I acted with bad faith or not.

Anyway, I never mentioned anything related to attractiveness, you were the one pushing that interpretation on me. From there you seem to belive: less attractive = more realistic. I disagree, humans are extremely diverse but on average males have a tendency to show masculine traits, the same way females have a tendency to show feminine traits. Something realistic will maintain that average while still showing feminine men (almost absent from western games BTW), and/or masculine female (they are now the norm) or whatever they want.

Do you want to know what my problem is? All of this is blatant pandering from corporations that don't care. Examples:

- Bethesda with its pride icon absent from countries that need help to fight for their rights.
- Blizzard removing any trace of gay characters in China.
- Disney making their movies with pointless gay "winks" that are going to be edited out for certain countries.
- Western media more interested in antagonizing established fans for a quick "in your face nazi", than in creating compelling new characters/plots.

Then we have Ubisoft "forcing" Chinese "standard" (https://www.polygon.com/2018/11/3/18...ox-one-ubisoft), not out malice but because it's cheaper to only maintain one version of the game. Lucky us gamers united and pushed back. But what do you think will happen if China will become the main market? Will you enjoy the Chinese standard forced on you? I don't. It's the same with this "western standard" that is being pushed right now.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Why are most female bosses sexy? Because women by nature are sexy.

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Can't say scantily clad females have ever done much for me tbh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Men by nature are rough, rugged, and more animalistic/aggressive.

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Makes me think of my WoW male characters and their ridiculously muscular elbows! And guess what? You might find that over-muscled look appealing, but that doesn't do much for me, either.

One thing I've enjoyed about the FF franchise is that they've not stuck exclusively to those the lazy stereotypes when creating their villains and bosses. I was disappointed that Lakshmi had to be prettied up to please Yoshi since he found her original concept too homely looking, because the result was pretty standard fare and rather dull.

I agree with the OP there is a lack of balance between male and female bosses in FFXIV. More pretty (and not-so-pretty) guys wouldn't go amiss, in my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

So...The last boss of the most recent dungeon? I dunno, seems to fit the female side of what you were asking.Maybe just me.

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Which was part of my sentence. Yes there are some but the good looking and humanoid looking females are much more while the scale tips to the complete other side with males too. And they still tend to give these more beastial females still boobs..which honestly often just looks strange. x)

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Originally Posted by Joven

Why is something appealing to guys 'sexism', but appealing to girls is fine?

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You are missing the point and instead serving up quite a loaded question.

But it's a fair question and I like to think most double standards are the results of social inequality issues. I want to be as unbiased as I possibly can, and perhaps it's easier for me to do so as I can platonically appreciate both male and female gender as a male myself.

To start, before sexism can be brought into the picture we must first acknowledge gender representation, sexual objectification, and sexualization. Catering purely towards any one side is sexist when you know your audience is nearly 50 50 male female and that the game's content is not purely for said purpose.

Female characters are the ones mostly objectified while male characters are not. Females are also often the only gender objectified and or sexualized. This is the crux of the sexist argument. The argument being that this objectification takes a sole gender and reduces them to their sexualized "goods". Let's take a look at ffxiv. We can make men look attractive, sexualized, hypersexualized, but not objectified. Let's rewind back to the forum post that suggested a bulge slider. Males only have a muscular slider. Females have breast slider, now butt mod, and we also have a very VERY revealing viera race thong. Are these necessary features or are they purposed to be sexualized which can then lead to objectification across the board ? Do you see where I'm going ?

Let's flip it. Many people do not want to see a male bulge. And what could be sexualized or objectified has been neutered via censored nipples and the smoothest pelvis. Let's remember that objectification targets those "goods". SE seems to have taken an opinion.

If you're astute enough, you can observe the correlation of SE's character development vs objectification/sexualization when she is apart of a serious plotline.

It's important to be able to see how gender representation and objectification exists in games as it can relate to sexism. Females are almost always the sole objectified, sexualized, and stereotyped party and therefore reaches into sexist territory when there is no equalizer. And yes, this goes vice versa, but there is a slight difference I feel. It is not easy to do such to a male. It's easy to sexualize a male, but not to objectify him. And if we are able to objectify him, does it even have the same impact of objectifying a female ?

No one is saying that it would not be sexist to flip the coin on men. Rather, it's sexist to only sexualize and objectify a sole gender for the purpose of a select gender's gaze. The hand revealed in doing this says that this gender is meant to be sexualized and objectified for their gender while the other gender is either not worthy of it or too higbrow for it.

There is a lot of nuance in your question and I like that it made me think for quite a few hours here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

You are missing the point and instead serving up quite a loaded question.

But it's a fair question and I like to think most double standards are the results of social inequality issues. I want to be as unbiased as I possibly can, and perhaps it's easier for me to do so as I can platonically appreciate both male and female gender as a male myself.

To start, before sexism can be brought into the picture we must first acknowledge gender representation, sexual objectification, and sexualization. Catering purely towards any one side is sexist when you know your audience is nearly 50 50 male female and that the game's content is not purely for said purpose.

Female characters are the ones mostly objectified while male characters are not. Females are also often the only gender objectified and or sexualized. This is the crux of the sexist argument. The argument being that this objectification takes a sole gender and reduces them to their sexualized "goods". Let's take a look at ffxiv. We can make men look attractive, sexualized, hypersexualized, but not objectified. Let's rewind back to the forum post that suggested a bulge slider. Males only have a muscular slider. Females have breast slider, now butt mod, and we also have a very VERY revealing viera race thong. Are these necessary features or are they purposed to be sexualized which can then lead to objectification across the board ? Do you see where I'm going ?

Let's flip it. Many people do not want to see a male bulge. And what could be sexualized or objectified has been neutered via censored nipples and the smoothest pelvis. Let's remember that objectification targets those "goods". SE seems to have taken an opinion.

If you're astute enough, you can observe the correlation of SE's character development vs objectification/sexualization when she is apart of a serious plotline.

It's important to be able to see how gender representation and objectification exists in games as it can relate to sexism. Females are almost always the sole objectified, sexualized, and stereotyped party and therefore reaches into sexist territory when there is no equalizer. And yes, this goes vice versa, but there is a slight difference I feel. It is not easy to do such to a male. It's easy to sexualize a male, but not to objectify him. And if we are able to objectify him, does it even have the same impact of objectifying a female ?

No one is saying that it would not be sexist to flip the coin on men. Rather, it's sexist to only sexualize and objectify a sole gender for the purpose of a select gender's gaze. The hand revealed in doing this says that this gender is meant to be sexualized and objectified for their gender while the other gender is either not worthy of it or too higbrow for it.

There is a lot of nuance in your question and I like that it made me think for quite a few hours here.

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I disagree. From my point of view is an attempted justification to allow one thing and not the other. Both genders are subjected to objectification and, very often unfair, expectations. A good example of this is how people talk about "male power fantasy" but ignore "female power fantasy".

Anyway, is a rabbit hole I do not wish to travel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

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So basically, you say that to represent a woman sexy is to objectify her but to make a man sexy is not to objectify him. To represent a woman as "feminine" is to objectify her or to belittle her but to represent a man muscular or manly (with a uniform for example since it is often appealing to women) is to gratify them.

Double standard and contradictory.

This totally ignore those women who would love to feel free to be sexy or girly but cannot because even in the eyes of some feminist, to be feminine or sexy is to belittle women as gender or to be a lose woman. In other word, women feminists can be even more mysogynist than those men who consider sexy women as lose (when not worst).

It is sad to see that feminist can walk the path of some misogynist men and enforce this patriarchal vision.

Funny thing, as child, I remember some joke about men who do bodybuilding, the line was more or less : the bigger are muscles, smaler is the brain. And men cannot be objectified?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Driavna

I disagree. From my point of view is an attempted justification to allow one thing and not the other. Both genders are subjected to objectification and, very often unfair, expectations. A good example of this is how people talk about "male power fantasy" but ignore "female power fantasy".

Anyway, is a rabbit hole I do not wish to travel.

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Odd, since I quite agree with you and thought my post conveyed such.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldevern

So basically, you say that to represent a woman sexy is to objectify her but to make a man sexy is not to objectify him. To represent a woman as "feminine" is to objectify her or to belittle her but to represent a man muscular or manly (with a uniform for example since it is often appealing to women) is to gratify them.

Double standard and contradictory.

This totally ignore those women who would love to feel free to be sexy or girly but cannot because even in the eyes of some feminist, to be feminine or sexy is to belittle women as gender or to be a lose woman. In other word, women feminists can be even more mysogynist than those men who consider sexy women as lose (when not worst).

It is sad to see that feminist can walk the path of some misogynist men and enforce this patriarchal vision.

Funny thing, as child, I remember some joke about men who do bodybuilding, the line was more or less : the bigger are muscles, smaler is the brain. And men cannot be objectified?

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I feel you're twisting my words a bit here.
There is a clear line between sexualization and objectification, there is certainly a progression, but they are not equivalent nor does it always lead to such.
It's certainly possible to objectify both gender, and I said that in my original post make no mistake.

I have no qualms about femininity and never spoke about such. I also never said muscles are gratifying. I never said anything is better.

I never said women aren't allowed to feel sexy or girly. You are putting a lot of words in my mouth here.

EDIT: I am also a male, I'm not sure if you were implying something else. This is purely analytical and I'm sorry if you've misconstrued anything here.

The sentiment is that both genders can be objectified, but it is unfair as another person said, when only one gender is objectified and the other ignored. This act of ignoring can lead to feelings of sexism.

you must admit though...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdHdjvnX...jpg&name=smallhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdHdjvpW...g&name=360x360https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdHdjvlW...jpg&name=smallhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdHdjv_X...pg&name=mediumhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdJi0nvX...g&name=360x360https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdJi0nvX...g&name=360x360https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdJi0nvW...jpg&name=smallhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdVf2sXX...jpg&name=smallhttps://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20200305092620 https://i.pinimg.com/originals/54/15...ff81f6492a.jpghttps://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...95348469616324 https://i.ytimg.com/vi/knV-5VciTTQ/maxresdefault.jpg



What is the male equivalent in FFXIV?

There is no equivalent because men and women are not the same thing.
Men by nature will be portrayed as rugged and more beastly, while women are portrayed beautifully sexy.

The problem is not that there aren't male bosses, the problem is that you think males and females are supposed to dress and look the same, or be presented the same way.
The nature of the genders will never change, as much as you want to make a cat look like a dog it will still be a cat. Exceptions exceptions, exceptions exist of course in real life and in the game.

You're trying to find something that isn't there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HeyMcFly

The only two problems I've had with female bosses are when Ryne becomes Shiva- her light form is half naked & she's under or around 16, I know japan is known to fetishize under-age characters for various reasons---- and two, when female bosses have better hairstyles than whats available to the playerbase.

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16 or younger is the legal age in most places on earth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

There is no equivalent because men and women are not the same thing.
Men by nature will be portrayed as rugged and more beastly, while women are portrayed beautifully sexy.

The problem is not that there aren't male bosses, the problem is that you think males and females are supposed to dress and look the same, or be presented the same way.
The nature of the genders will never change, as much as you want to make a cat look like a dog it will still be a cat. Exceptions exceptions, exceptions exist of course in real life and in the game.

You're trying to find something that isn't there.

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So you're saying that men can't be portrayed as beautifully sexy and women can't be portrayed rugged and beastly?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

There is no equivalent because men and women are not the same thing.
Men by nature will be portrayed as rugged and more beastly, while women are portrayed beautifully sexy.

The problem is not that there aren't male bosses, the problem is that you think males and females are supposed to dress and look the same, or be presented the same way.
The nature of the genders will never change, as much as you want to make a cat look like a dog it will still be a cat. Exceptions exceptions, exceptions exist of course in real life and in the game.

You're trying to find something that isn't there.

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Tell me then, which male bosses are supposed to be sexually appealing to those that like males using your idea of what makes men attractive? ...Byakko? Just Byakko? He's kind weird tho with the tiger arm. Seems like the scales are tipped heavily far in one direction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RyuSaarva

16 or younger is the legal age in most places on earth.

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Don't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

There is no equivalent because men and women are not the same thing.
Men by nature will be portrayed as rugged and more beastly, while women are portrayed beautifully sexy.

The problem is not that there aren't male bosses, the problem is that you think males and females are supposed to dress and look the same, or be presented the same way.
The nature of the genders will never change, as much as you want to make a cat look like a dog it will still be a cat. Exceptions exceptions, exceptions exist of course in real life and in the game.

You're trying to find something that isn't there.

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I don't know how to tell you this, but men and women are of the same species...
Every expectation you have of the genders is mostly inspired by your own cultural pressures.


Also I really don't know what game you think you're playing with this hard black and white gender roles nonsense
https://i.imgur.com/Yv77LQI.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdHdjvnX...jpg&name=smallhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdHdjvpW...g&name=360x360https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdHdjvlW...jpg&name=smallhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdHdjv_X...pg&name=mediumhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdJi0nvX...g&name=360x360https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdJi0nvX...g&name=360x360https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdJi0nvW...jpg&name=smallhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdVf2sXX...jpg&name=smallhttps://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20200305092620 https://i.pinimg.com/originals/54/15...ff81f6492a.jpghttps://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...95348469616324 https://i.ytimg.com/vi/knV-5VciTTQ/maxresdefault.jpg FFXIV?

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First post to keep my interest for more then 30sec in a very long time.

Honestly I wouldn’t bother arguing with someone promoting gender essentialism like that. It’s... pretty ridiculously outdated in this day and age by people who study the subjects properly (especially to the extent he’s going), but if someone believes the Earth is flat you can’t argue with them to prove them wrong, this is much the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

Tell me then, which male bosses are supposed to be sexually appealing to those that like males using your idea of what makes men attractive? ...Byakko? Just Byakko? He's kind weird tho with the tiger arm. Seems like the scales are tipped heavily far in one direction.

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This is not solely about being sexually appealing; whatever that means. There are plenty of male bosses that show skin in the game, but because they are rugged, like the male gender was designed to be by nature some of you don't want to accept them. For your second point about "heavily tipped," read below.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

So you're saying that men can't be portrayed as beautifully sexy and women can't be portrayed rugged and beastly?

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I said "exceptions" 3 times, how did it escape you? The exceptions are also portrayed in the game, at the same ratio as it happens in real life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roda

I don't know how to tell you this, but men and women are of the same species...
Every expectation you have of the genders is mostly inspired by your own cultural pressures.


Also I really don't know what game you think you're playing with this hard black and white gender roles nonsense
https://i.imgur.com/Yv77LQI.png

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That's just them using new server/engine technology to make the same gear change to the corresponding race and gender combination.
As for the other stuff; I don't know what culture you live in but males and females have a specific nature to them. That nature cannot be changed with just words, it's physiological.