Results of a reddit job satisfaction poll

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

White Mage needs an attack that consumes lilies because typically you want to consume them ASAP for Afflatus Misery, but there will be times where there's no need for the heal.

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Lilies being eaten by an attack skill would break the design of the system. It's actually a pretty well balanced and clever mechanic that is meant to mimic an instant cast DPS skill (where the dps portion is delayed). Aka as long as you can get your misery off, every lilly you eat is already a 250 potency dps skill (more if multitarget misery). If there are times where you don't need to heal you should still use an afflatus skill to weave your ogcds into even if it's overheal.
In essence, afflatus heals are equivalent to the SCH ruin II with higher dps and an actual heal attached. It's so much better than ruin II that it comes with the major drawback of being a severely limited ressource.

Compared to the complete playerbase and the fact it was on reddit which is toxic AF and nothing but a fishing of likes and echochamber sadly makes the results not valid. SE should just do an ingame poll for the best results. Anything from facebook or reddit is never going cover most of the playerbase. It'll always be like the forums... a very tiny bit of a huge cup. Plus it's reddit.... So it kindof speaks for itself.

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Originally Posted by monk-dps

Compared to the complete playerbase and the fact it was on reddit which is toxic AF and nothing but a fishing of likes and echochamber sadly makes the results not valid. SE should just do an ingame poll for the best results. Anything from facebook or reddit is never going cover most of the playerbase. It'll always be like the forums... a very tiny bit of a huge cup. Plus it's reddit.... So it kindof speaks for itself.

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The game is filled with uber-casuals who don't know anything about anything and they'll vote for whatever and clutter up the player poll with useless votes. Such a poll would be useless.

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Originally Posted by Halivel

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I think SE wouldn't really bother to care what the silent playerbase thinks if they don't speak. It calls back to that one infamous slide they had explaining their goals with developing ARR. They want and will respond to criticism that is seen. If you think something is fine, just share your opinion about that. Yes, It's undeniable that something like the forums is just a small part of the community but it's really strange that people are trying to dismiss that the opinions here on the forums aren't significant when it has been shown otherwise.

Again, with the male Viera thing. The forums has a big thread about it, and SE responded about the situation in the live letter. Same with the AST changes. Same with anything they've responded to. You can't even say if the majority even does want it or not because there's no good way of telling. All we have going for is the feedback that is seen. That's simply how it is.

This won't change until they actually do give out surveys to everyone.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Lilies being eaten by an attack skill would break the design of the system. It's actually a pretty well balanced and clever mechanic that is meant to mimic an instant cast DPS skill (where the dps portion is delayed). Aka as long as you can get your misery off, every lilly you eat is already a 250 potency dps skill (more if multitarget misery). If there are times where you don't need to heal you should still use an afflatus skill to weave your ogcds into even if it's overheal.
In essence, afflatus heals are equivalent to the SCH ruin II with higher dps and an actual heal attached. It's so much better than ruin II that it comes with the major drawback of being a severely limited ressource.

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Sorry, but that's still not convincing me. I like to have a choice on what I can spend lilies on like how Scholar has a choice to where it can spend their Aetherflow on.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The game will never be super complex. It's not really the audience it caters towards. I've accepted that. I do savage, and most of the other content it provides. I'm glad I don't have to worry about some of that though, it let's me play other games, which I also enjoy.

I feel like a lot of people only want to play xiv, and while I understand that, I think the world is moving away from that kind of game.

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Who is asking for super complex? There is a middle ground between laughably basic a five year old could do it and requiring a PHD. There was nothing inherently "super complex" about Heavensward Scholar, Warrior, Dark Knight or Stormblood Bard and Astro. All of them were still watered down because some people just couldn't be bothered to learn how their kits functioned.

And it isn't just the raid community complaining but even average players. How many healer threads do you see, be it here, reddit or anywhere else, were people are shouting how boring healers are nowadays because they aren't ever heal? Adding to that, why can't we have a mix? White Mage was supposed to be the simplistic healer. Why did Scholar and Astro have to be dumbed down when their older designs appealed to people who prefer more increasing gimmicks?

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Originally Posted by Halivel

AST changes (as example)? Happened thanks to one minority asking for changes, just as any other job balancing change. Result? We see it on this forum - another minority is unhappy. Meanwhile, the majority just plays the game and enjoys their time in it. Also keep in mind that at least some part of the development team, including Yoshida, plays the game themselves, so they aren't blind to how things work in the final product.

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This would be an inherently flawed design philosophy, if that was how they operated (I don't believe it is). You don't make sweeping changes based on a very minute amount of criticism. It speaks volumes when you make an adjustment to please one minority and another several times larger crops up. That says your adjustments were a poor idea as you upset more people than you pleased. People who don't care one way or another are irrelevant to the conversation. They aren't going to provide feedback, or necessarily care at all. So there's no reason to even consider their opinion when they aren't offering one.

And yes, the dev team does play this game. That doesn't mean they know everything. In fact, a vast majority of the changes were all predicted months—sometimes years—in advance but the devs were simply stubborn.

Disregarding the pool because it’s on Reddit is the most redundant thing I have ever heard on here.

“They’re from Reddit they’re toxic”

A player is a player but in very curious on how every other main stands in a spectrum larger

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Disregarding the pool because it’s on Reddit is the most redundant thing I have ever heard on here.

“They’re from Reddit they’re toxic”

A player is a player but in very curious on how every other main stands in a spectrum larger

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Because when the bunk of it is just people doing group think and whatnot it's hard to take them seriously. I'm not going to say it's 100% like that but there is massive group think there, along with people fishing for likes. Go look at when people go against the norm there and see what happens. Thats why I said what I said. Also how is that no different then saying all the people ingame are casual noobs?

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Originally Posted by monk-dps

Because when the bunk of it is just people doing group think and whatnot it's hard to take them seriously. I'm not going to say it's 100% like that but there is massive group think there, along with people fishing for likes. Go look at when people go against the norm there and see what happens. Thats why I said what I said. Also how is that no different then saying all the people ingame are casual noobs? I don't see you defending the players in the game.

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I’m legitimately confused on your closing statement “How is that no different then saying all the people in game are casual noobs”

Broad strokes doesn’t color a canvas. Not everything is black and white, right & wrong. Also why would I defend players from the game? I’m not Batman they don’t need some random person defending their honor they are smart enough to muster a defense for very narrow view such as that on. I’m still confused what were you trying to say which explains why my message is obtuse

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I’m legitimately confused on your closing statement “How is that no different then saying all the people in game are casual noobs”

Broad strokes doesn’t color a canvas. Not everything is black and white, right & wrong. Also why would I defend players from the game? I’m not Batman they don’t need some random person defending their honor they are smart enough to muster a defense for very narrow view such as that on. I’m still confused what were you trying to say which explains why my message is obtuse

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Let me start over then... cause I think I'm not writing what's completely in my head. All I was saying was I don't think using Reddit -because of the liking hunting and group think there- was a good place to poll. Honestly I think polling from the game itself is a better idea since you can't like hunt there. That and it's the biggest pool to fish from. Reddit is like the forums extra small and not even 10% of the actual playerbase.

And I'm not saying I'm completely correct or right either. This is just what I believe and I expressed it poorly. So my bad. But that's where I stand. I hope that cleared it up. My bad for the confusion.

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Originally Posted by Edax

The game is filled with uber-casuals who don't know anything about anything and they'll vote for whatever and clutter up the player poll with useless votes. Such a poll would be useless.

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I believe it's the same pooling from just reddit also. Most of the people there just like hunt and are in massive group thinks and shun anyone who brings anything from outside of their bubble. So really it's the same problem. Least from the game you'll get the actual results since most of the playerbase don't go on reddit or on here.

Your attempt to dismiss Reddit as a platform because of your bias is downright laughable. You clearly have no idea how metric data is accumulated. As for the validity of reddit itself, it is a more popular platform for many developers (across the gaming and alternate spectrum) sometimes, than their own official forums are. It can be, in the case of some games, their preferred medium of communication completely as its less of an extension to moderate in house. Herd mentality is a human trait, millenia old. How it presents in digital format is irrelevant. It seems as if peoples dismissals, falls less inline with facts and more on how it stands with their own opinions. Which again, a human trait. The complaint against oversimplification being in many cases now, industry wide and spread across numerous independent forums alike, is testament to the fact that many share a dislike for it. If you think you can silence those voices to suit your own, then I suspect you are going to be disappointed on a fairly galactic scale.

Monk needs a complete rework like MCH had. SCH needs a dps kit rework. BRD needs some adjustments too as IMO its the least favorite ranged physical to play right now.

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Originally Posted by Mindiori

Your attempt to dismiss Reddit as a platform because of your bias is downright laughable.

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Doubly so because some people on Reddit use the EXACT same points when trying to dismiss these forums as a platform.

It's almost like Them vs Us tribalism is nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Mindiori

Your attempt to dismiss Reddit as a platform because of your bias is downright laughable. You clearly have no idea how metric data is accumulated. As for the validity of reddit itself, it is a more popular platform for many developers (across the gaming and alternate spectrum) sometimes, than their own official forums are. It can be, in the case of some games, their preferred medium of communication completely as its less of an extension to moderate in house. Herd mentality is a human trait, millenia old. How it presents in digital format is irrelevant. It seems as if peoples dismissals, falls less inline with facts and more on how it stands with their own opinions. Which again, a human trait. The complaint against oversimplification being in many cases now, industry wide and spread across numerous independent forums alike, is testament to the fact that many share a dislike for it. If you think you can silence those voices to suit your own, then I suspect you are going to be disappointed on a fairly galactic scale.

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My opinion of reddit has nothing to do with how I feel about the game. Hell I don't even know where you got that from since I haven't even mentioned my opinion on any of those topics. The ONLY thing I said was that Reddit is no bigger then the forums and I think it's even worst due to the group think and like fishing that happens there. Thats all I said. I honestly feel like SE would get a better opinion from the players in the game itself since that's the biggest pool. But that's my opinion nowhere did I say that my opinion was the only true fact since even if they did that there would be flaws. No poll is perfect.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

yeah.. thats not what i meant. but nice try.

Its super easy to generalize about things. See, what I meant was "we pull hate off BAD tanks all the time." You took that to mean, any and all tanks.

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Well I mean, if you didn't mean stragglers then the only other options are: a) tanks with gear several levels below minimum(in which case - why should that matter?), b) tanks who legit stand AFK in front of the boss(again - why should those matter?), or c) you're just lying.

Stragglers were the only reasonable option, unless you're suggesting that people should be able to tank successfully by being afk just so you can never be inconvenienced, because any sort of crap rotation will hold aggro when in tank stance.

I guess next logical step is to remove player hp bars, because healers might not heal you and cause you to die.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Thats why we have this lowest common denominator thing, where enmity isn't really a thing anymore. I can't count how many times I'd use all of my enmity dumps and STILL have hate. I'm glad I don't have to worry about that any more.

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But if you're somehow still "ripping hate" and you don't want that, then how is it good that you no longer have tools to dump it? If it still happens then you still have to worry about it, if anything even more so, because you no longer have any ability to make up for those "lowest common denominator" tanks you supposedly encounter.
Nothing you say makes any sense really.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Well I mean, if you didn't mean stragglers then the only other options are: a) tanks with gear several levels below minimum(in which case - why should that matter?), b) tanks who legit stand AFK in front of the boss(again - why should those matter?), or c) you're just lying.

Stragglers were the only reasonable option, unless you're suggesting that people should be able to tank successfully by being afk just so you can never be inconvenienced, because any sort of crap rotation will hold aggro when in tank stance.

I guess next logical step is to remove player hp bars, because healers might not heal you and cause you to die.



But if you're somehow still "ripping hate" and you don't want that, then how is it good that you no longer have tools to dump it? If it still happens then you still have to worry about it, if anything even more so, because you no longer have any ability to make up for those "lowest common denominator" tanks you supposedly encounter.
Nothing you say makes any sense really.

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*sigh.... *

Tank pulls mobs. Tanks does a couple AoEs. Tank does single target. Geared dps does AoEs. Geared dps rips hate cuz tank is doing single target.

Or tank is in base max level gear in expert roulette. Tank does poor single target rotation. Gear dps who know what they are doing can and will pull hate sometimes.


I feel like you are being intentionally obtuse.

I really hate when people complain about jobs being "gutted"...Continuously adding skills to jobs is not reasonable, nor sustainable. We shouldn't be forced to have 10 hotbars completely full of crap to play the game. I welcome pruning, but also like that we get a couple new abilities to replace things that were lost. You might not like what was taken away, or what they added in return, but they can't just keeping adding and adding and adding.

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Originally Posted by Macleod

I really hate when people complain about jobs being "gutted"...Continuously adding skills to jobs is not reasonable, nor sustainable. We shouldn't be forced to have 10 hotbars completely full of crap to play the game. I welcome pruning, but also like that we get a couple new abilities to replace things that were lost. You might not like what was taken away, or what they added in return, but they can't just keeping adding and adding and adding.

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They can they just have to be smart about it.

Melee combos should be on one button that updates in the chain. They have it for PvP. What's the difference between 1,2,3 instead of 1, 1, 1. It's boring and monotonous? Welcome to healer dps where it's 2111111111111 for our dps rotation from lvl 4 to lvl 80. Blows that excuse out of the water.

For healers (example) WHM Cure should upgrade to Cure 2 via a trait at a certain level. At higher level gameplay, Cure 1 is essentially ignored. Why do we still have cure 1 at lvl 80 when they're not used?

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

They can they just have to be smart about it.

Melee combos should be on one button that updates in the chain. They have it for PvP. What's the difference between 1,2,3 instead of 1, 1, 1. It's boring and monotonous? Welcome to healer dps where it's 2111111111111 for our dps rotation from lvl 4 to lvl 80. Blows that excuse out of the water.

For healers (example) WHM Cure should upgrade to Cure 2 via a trait at a certain level. At higher level gameplay, Cure 1 is essentially ignored. Why do we still have cure 1 at lvl 80 when they're not used?

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Not all DPS have combos tho so it isn't that simple? You'll need more then one button combos.. and I know pvp does this but it's not just 111111111 as you claim. It's still more like 111,234, etc etc. And healers never had DPS complex rotations anyway so that's kindof an unfair thing to compare them too. As far as I know it was always whm=holy spam. Yeah you had areo and many other things to hit here and there but they were no where near as hard or busy as say monk or ninja.

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Originally Posted by Macleod

I really hate when people complain about jobs being "gutted"...Continuously adding skills to jobs is not reasonable, nor sustainable.

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Virtually no one complaining about "gutting" is saying that just removing skills is bad by itself. The issue is cutting out(or altering) good skills and mechanics which added complexity and synergy within the kit and replacing them with shallow crap that doesn't alter the gameplay in any meaningful way.

Look at MNK for example - they've lost 2 damage cooldowns and an entire burst window in order to add... an AoE copy of The Forbidden Chakra and 2 more niche GS management abilities with limited use(one which also breaks the job's opener in a way that devs somehow failed to predict). Tornado Kick wasn't removed, but it might've as well be, since with other changes and additions it's no longer used for either burst damage, nor disengaging.

MNK isn't the only one though - look how many "new" SHB skills are just single target/AoE versions of what jobs already had(eg Despair, Hissatsu: Senei), or "two" skills which are actually just one split into single target and AoE (Auto Crossbow/Heat Blast). Hell, DRK's Edge and Flood of Shadow fall into both groups, since they're just simplified and split Dark Arts.

The problem is that SE isn't removing button bloat to add new, meaningful skills - they're removing good skills to ADD button bloat. The excitement of getting new skills as you level up in an RPG, is that you get more options and your character's playstyle is getting expanded - SHB did the opposite of that for many jobs though. We lost options and mechanics, just to "make space" for more of what we already have.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

The problem is that SE isn't removing button bloat to add new, meaningful skills - they're removing good skills to ADD button bloat. The excitement of getting new skills as you level up in an RPG, is that you get more options and your character's playstyle is getting expanded - SHB did the opposite of that for many jobs though. We lost options and mechanics, just to "make space" for more of what we already have.

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Merely upgrading the skills you already have can be just as exciting. I'm already at the point of having half my keyboard hotkeyed and I can no longer reasonable reach some of the keys in a hurry so I'm at my limit how many skills I can juggle without resorting to mouse clicking.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Merely upgrading the skills you already have can be just as exciting. I'm already at the point of having half my keyboard hotkeyed and I can no longer reasonable reach some of the keys in a hurry so I'm at my limit how many skills I can juggle without resorting to mouse clicking.

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Sure, which is why they could've just upgraded many of those skills, instead of adding marginally changed copies of them on whole new hotkeys and removing other, actually different stuff to make space.

Adding new skills while pruning old JUST because "new expac, so we gotta" - regardless if it'll actually lead to de-evolution of the jobs rather than improvement - is stupid.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Merely upgrading the skills you already have can be just as exciting.

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This is especially true (At least it was for me) getting the Heated Shots upgrade on Machinist. The visuals of Heated Shots are epic compared to their non heated versions. Same skills, new look. Was still absurdly happy when I got them, despite that they were not "new" or different. Just better in every conceivable way, lol.

Speaking of hotkeys .. My Naga has 22 keybinds associated with it alone ... There are a lot of skills that need to be combined into one button lol, specifically ones that are mutually exclusive like Fire/Blizzard 4.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

They can they just have to be smart about it.

Melee combos should be on one button that updates in the chain. They have it for PvP. What's the difference between 1,2,3 instead of 1, 1, 1. It's boring and monotonous? Welcome to healer dps where it's 2111111111111 for our dps rotation from lvl 4 to lvl 80. Blows that excuse out of the water.

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This will never work if only because monk... and also because samurai.

Monk has two full versions of 1, 2, and 3 that all can branch off of each other, and you do go between the different variants depending on need, but also because the rotation requires you to use one of the "3" moves twice in a row then use the other "3"

Similarly samurai has 3 versions of the "2" in the combo and two versions of the "3" Not to mention paladin also having two versions of "3"

Healers at least have the break in the monotony of their DPS moves by at least occasionally having to heal. DPS have no such change other than moving for mechanics.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

This will never work if only because monk...

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It could actually, you'd just end up with 3 buttons rather than 9.
Button 1 would be Arm of the Destroyer>Four-point Fury>Rockbreaker
Button 2 would be Dragon Kick>Twin Snakes>Demolish
Button 3 would be Bootshine>True Strike>Snap Punch

they all change based on what form your currently on. You're in coeurl form, Button 1 displays Rockbreaker, 2 displays Demolish, 3 displays Snap Punch.

This same thing could be done to SAM though ones like PLD that have the single skill that branches off would indeed be different, maybe just have that lone skill be separate and glow like it normally does now while the main combo is reduced from 3 to 1 button.

Do I want to see these changes, my hotbars say sure. I understand some people don't want it cause it'd just be "press 1 over and over" but you'd still have weaving to do and movement to break it up. Also, see healers

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Originally Posted by Jade3173

It could actually, you'd just end up with 3 buttons rather than 9.
Button 1 would be Arm of the Destroyer>Four-point Fury>Rockbreaker
Button 2 would be Dragon Kick>Twin Snakes>Demolish
Button 3 would be Bootshine>True Strike>Snap Punch

they all change based on what form your currently on. You're in coeurl form, Button 1 displays Rockbreaker, 2 displays Demolish, 3 displays Snap Punch.

This same thing could be done to SAM though ones like PLD that have the single skill that branches off would indeed be different, maybe just have that lone skill be separate and glow like it normally does now while the main combo is reduced from 3 to 1 button.

Do I want to see these changes, my hotbars say sure. I understand some people don't want it cause it'd just be "press 1 over and over" but you'd still have weaving to do and movement to break it up. Also, see healers

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Weaving? Have you played monk lately? They gutted all our weave moves! ;)

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Originally Posted by Jade3173

It could actually, you'd just end up with 3 buttons rather than 9.
Button 1 would be Arm of the Destroyer>Four-point Fury>Rockbreaker
Button 2 would be Dragon Kick>Twin Snakes>Demolish
Button 3 would be Bootshine>True Strike>Snap Punch

they all change based on what form your currently on. You're in coeurl form, Button 1 displays Rockbreaker, 2 displays Demolish, 3 displays Snap Punch.

This same thing could be done to SAM though ones like PLD that have the single skill that branches off would indeed be different, maybe just have that lone skill be separate and glow like it normally does now while the main combo is reduced from 3 to 1 button.

Do I want to see these changes, my hotbars say sure. I understand some people don't want it cause it'd just be "press 1 over and over" but you'd still have weaving to do and movement to break it up. Also, see healers

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Pretty much this. Monk (generally) has flank moves and rear moves. Change Demolish from a rear move to a side move and you have a side set. Change Snap Punch from a side move to a rear move and you have a rear set.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Virtually no one complaining about "gutting" is saying that just removing skills is bad by itself. The issue is cutting out(or altering) good skills and mechanics which added complexity and synergy within the kit and replacing them with shallow crap that doesn't alter the gameplay in any meaningful way.

Look at MNK for example - they've lost 2 damage cooldowns and an entire burst window in order to add... an AoE copy of The Forbidden Chakra and 2 more niche GS management abilities with limited use(one which also breaks the job's opener in a way that devs somehow failed to predict). Tornado Kick wasn't removed, but it might've as well be, since with other changes and additions it's no longer used for either burst damage, nor disengaging.

MNK isn't the only one though - look how many "new" SHB skills are just single target/AoE versions of what jobs already had(eg Despair, Hissatsu: Senei), or "two" skills which are actually just one split into single target and AoE (Auto Crossbow/Heat Blast). Hell, DRK's Edge and Flood of Shadow fall into both groups, since they're just simplified and split Dark Arts.

The problem is that SE isn't removing button bloat to add new, meaningful skills - they're removing good skills to ADD button bloat. The excitement of getting new skills as you level up in an RPG, is that you get more options and your character's playstyle is getting expanded - SHB did the opposite of that for many jobs though. We lost options and mechanics, just to "make space" for more of what we already have.

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Or SE's penchant for removing skills and giving them back again to us later while leveling.

For Example:

SE took away Stoneskin, gave it back in AOE form, took it away again and then gave WHM Divine Benison which is just a renamed Stoneskin.

SE took away Divine Seal (30% heal power increase), Gave it to all healers as a role action, took it away, and then gave it back at lvl 80 to WHM in the form of Temperance.

This isn't good game design. It's lazy. And they've done the exact same to other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Halivel

-snip-

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Soooooo... You're saying if nobody complains it's fine and and when people complain it doesn't matter? Gotcha.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Sorry, but that's still not convincing me. I like to have a choice on what I can spend lilies on like how Scholar has a choice to where it can spend their Aetherflow on.

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I'm not sure what part isn't convincing you. You already have a way of spending lilies towards dps... That's any afflatus skill, aka the very mechanic of how lilies work. They just defer their DPS onto misery. 4 GCDs for 900 potency. That's 225 per GCD.
Might I add, 225 is not a random number, it's the exact amount it needs to be so that afflatus + ogcd weave = glare + ogcd clip. It's well balanced. You, objectively, shouldn't want to change that balance by introducing an afflatus dps skill.
Maybe you just don't like that it's a little convoluted and would prefer a more straightforward "lily does dps via direct dps skill". That can be a legit concern. I feel like whm is simple enough that a bit of complexity on that front (if we can call it that) isn't much of a detriment. But that's just my opinion.

SCH doesn't get any dps from it's heals, it needs many more weaving windows to get it's healing off, it's potencies are slightly lower. There are a lot of factors to keep in mind and that make this really hard to compare 1:1.

I don't really want to go into math/design essay mode but the gist of it is that what WHM is lacking are dps ogcds. Not a dps skill linked to lilies. *cough*givefluidauraitspotencyback*cough*

The argument for a dps lily skill could be made if it didn't contribute to the blood lily, but honestly, why bother.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

The argument for a dps lily skill could be made if it didn't contribute to the blood lily, but honestly, why bother.

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A skill like this could add some depth to whm dps, if it was a 225 potency single target attack which didnt charge blood lily, you could use it to prevent your lilys overcapping while waiting for downtime to burn your healing lilies for a 900 potency gain.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

They can they just have to be smart about it.

Melee combos should be on one button that updates in the chain. They have it for PvP. What's the difference between 1,2,3 instead of 1, 1, 1. It's boring and monotonous? Welcome to healer dps where it's 2111111111111 for our dps rotation from lvl 4 to lvl 80. Blows that excuse out of the water.

For healers (example) WHM Cure should upgrade to Cure 2 via a trait at a certain level. At higher level gameplay, Cure 1 is essentially ignored. Why do we still have cure 1 at lvl 80 when they're not used?

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Yes, and it was heavily complained about—to the point Yoshida came out and said they wouldn't bring that system over to PvE. It may not seem like much, but I much prefer actually having to press a different button on my keyboard instead of Dragoon being reduced to 2222111122221111 the vast majority of the time.

And we still have Cure I because the dev team has no idea how we actually heal in this game. They still think people will GCD heal instead of spamming Glare most of the time.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Yes, and it was heavily complained about—to the point Yoshida came out and said they wouldn't bring that system over to PvE. It may not seem like much, but I much prefer actually having to press a different button on my keyboard instead of Dragoon being reduced to 2222111122221111 the vast majority of the time.

And we still have Cure I because the dev team has no idea how we actually heal in this game. They still think people will GCD heal instead of spamming Glare most of the time.

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So what they need to do is reduce the potency of healer ogcds?

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

Could always consider making the tier 1 heals and healer attack spells free to use, and assigning an MP cost to some of the oGCD spells, leaning on making them costly while making the GCDs relatively cheap and noob-friendly. Could go a long ways in making MP and actions like Lucid Dreaming feel more meaningful. Wouldn't want them to reduce the potency of oGCD heals since the way the game is designed, their potency values matter less and less with each expansion, meaning the developers give you a bigger inventory of them or more charges. Rather this than add stuff like... Fey Blessing to the game.

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This sounds promising too.

Could always consider making the tier 1 heals and healer attack spells free to use, and assigning an MP cost to some of the oGCD heals, leaning on making them costly while making the GCDs relatively cheap and noob-friendly. Could go a long ways in making MP and actions like Lucid Dreaming feel more meaningful. Wouldn't want them to reduce the potency of oGCD heals since the way the game is designed, their potency values matter less and less with each expansion, meaning the developers give you a bigger inventory of them or more charges. Rather this than add stuff like... Fey Blessing to the game.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Soooooo... You're saying if nobody complains it's fine and and when people complain it doesn't matter? Gotcha.

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No, that's not what I said. -_-

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

A skill like this could add some depth to whm dps, if it was a 225 potency single target attack which didnt charge blood lily, you could use it to prevent your lilys overcapping while waiting for downtime to burn your healing lilies for a 900 potency gain.

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The potency would probably have to be higher to make it worthwhile. At 225 you might as well solace your tank, you would get as much damage off and a heal to boot. If it's more than 225 potency then it would become the defacto weaving tool for optimization. It would also directly compete for priority with skills from other healers. So for instance, currently, in a whm/sch comp you want your whm to use their lilies before the sch uses their aetherflow stacks. That balance could be broken and if it is then sch will need to priority heal and they will fall behind even further in dps (they're already the lowest dps in the game).
Not saying it's a bad thing, or can't be done. Just needs some forethought and is an added complexity compared to just giving whm an ogcd dps tool that they are quite frankly lacking anyways.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

So what they need to do is reduce the potency of healer ogcds?

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Possibly, yes. They honestly need to nerf healing across the board or make monsters hit more. It's absurd just how little healing you'll actually do outside Savage.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Possibly, yes. They honestly need to nerf healing across the board or make monsters hit more. It's absurd just how little healing you'll actually do outside Savage.

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I personally think it has more to do with encounter design than any potency related stuff. Having predictable damage output will always yield the same result. The fact is that even ultimate fights are a meager 20% healing. And how many people can heal ultimate? You actually don't have that much freedom to play with potencies and making people heal more before it's too hard for many.
On the other end you can't change encounter design without revamping mana management and breaking all the old content. They've kinda boxed themselves into this room.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Well the reason I don't play Red Mage much any more is because I never get to use the full spectrum of abilities anymore.

Its boring just pressing two or three buttons all the time.

Hell almost ALL 8-Man content is like that. Which makes it boring as hell for most jobs because it cuts out almost all of the abilities of a job with the exception of a few. At least with alliance raids or 24 Man content I got to use my Raise a lot more, like ressing a good 5 players extremely fast to get them back up.

Or in Dungeons where I actually use AoE abilities and even use my healing on the Tank when the Healer is not keeping things up.

8-Man Content (Raids/Trials) are boring as hell with most of the jobs because of that.

You never get to use half the abilities of the jobs.

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W-what? I have no idea what you're talking about. If you're not using your job's kit then that's a you problem not a game problem.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

I personally think it has more to do with encounter design than any potency related stuff. Having predictable damage output will always yield the same result. The fact is that even ultimate fights are a meager 20% healing. And how many people can heal ultimate? You actually don't have that much freedom to play with potencies and making people heal more before it's too hard for many.
On the other end you can't change encounter design without revamping mana management and breaking all the old content. They've kinda boxed themselves into this room.

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I don't disagree, though I'd argue it's a little bit of everything. Encounter design does make healing far too predictable but healers are equally overpowered in this game. When you can take a tank from 1 HP to 100,000 in five seconds... it's a problem. Likewise, the outgoing damage as a whole—outside Savage—is so pitiful at times, you straight up don't have to heal at all.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

When you can take a tank from 1 HP to 100,000 in five seconds... it's a problem

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Remembering Titan's AoE festival in the end of the battle it's not surprising that healing power is done the way it's done. That said, they are noticeably designed for Savages to keep up in most situations there. It's not exactly good for keeping casual content challenging (though I still meet healers that barely can keep the tank even when they're using CDs and are geared properly), but isn't unexpected.