I don't need to justify why I play this game to you. I will simply say that enjoying a game in part means to also point out areas that need improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
It's past time, Yoshi-P...
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11-19-2017, 04:17 AMNaunet
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11-19-2017, 04:17 AMErryKQuote:
Originally Posted by HoodRat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naunet
Well, that's kind of the point I was trying to make... guess sarcasm doesn't work here. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
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11-19-2017, 04:23 AMFyceActually it is, because the one who is subject to being votekicked for standing around doing nothing is you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
And why do you think that these skills are only made for solo content? That's a completly absurd thing to say in a MMORPG where most content added to the game is multiplayer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
Don't play a Final Fantasy game if you don't want "healers" not to have damage spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
Your own personal views on what should be doing each roles in Final Fantasy XIV don't override how the game is actually designed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
It's not because you only want to heal that the game should give you what you want.
It's your responsability to find a game which suits your needs, not the other way around. Especially in a multiplayer game.
We are not speaking about a minor issue, but a whole design decision which impact the entire game's battle system and classes. What you're asking is not an "improvement", it's a complete overhaul. And that's not a reasonable thing to ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naunet
Besides, since it's a sujective preference, for other people it may not be an "improvement" at all. So, again, deal with it or find another game. -
11-19-2017, 04:27 AMMisteA lot of people don't like players with this kind of attitude and it is for good reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
If you are unwilling to compromise at all then don't be surprised if others don't compromise for you and therefore kick you out of their party since you purposefully refuse to do any DPS on healer and not due to lack of skill. You simply believe that since you are healer you don't have to do DPS even though you could to help.
Why should players who expect healers to do at least a little DPS compromise for you if you are unwilling to ever compromise for them? -
11-19-2017, 04:29 AMHoodRatWith the things I've seen people say on this game's forums, it's hard to tell what's serious and what's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErryK
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11-19-2017, 04:30 AMNaunetBecause a player has to be able to quest through the MSQ regardless of starting job. This is how it works in other MMOs, so it's not unreasonable for someone to presume that's how it works in FFXIV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
Now, does FFXIV work a bit differently? Yes. There's very little actual healing demand, which has resulted in an expectation of healer DPS in order for healers to fully contribute to the group. Is it wrong for someone to expect healers to heal? No. -
11-19-2017, 04:34 AMMissboneIt seems you didng got the joke and why should i care about your loadstone? Do you whant me to see how big your d...g is or what? Oo Im also aware how it works in the other FF Parts, but that dosnt mean that something that works in an offline game is as good in an mmo. Good for you if you are to do dmg in a group, but like i said for a healer this allways should be optional and never a must have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladinleeds
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11-19-2017, 04:40 AMFyceNobody is saying that healers shouldn't heal. What people are saying is that given how FFXIV is designed, healers shouldn't heal all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naunet
If you want to use strawman arguments, at least try to make them harder to debunk.
And, again, it's not a simple "expectaction", it's how the game is designed. You are not only arguing against the people who like the way things are, but you are arguing against the game itself.
Not all games are the same. Including MMORPGs. If this one is designed around the fact that you have downtime to use damage spells, then that's how it is. Again, you are trying to make a general rule out of a subjective preference. That's absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
Final Fantasy XIV plays like Final Fantasy XIV. Saying "but in some other games healers only heal!" is completly irrelevant. Nobody cares about how it's done in other games. They have no authority to dictate anything, nor do you. -
11-19-2017, 04:49 AMBourne_EndeavorAlas, that would be hypocritical since you don't play healers efficiently. Whether you like it or not, disregarding a third of your abilities because "I should only have to heal" means you aren't good at the role. A RDM spamming Vercure occasionally is more useful than a WHM who stands completely still for several minutes. If you only want to heal, FFXIV just isn't that style of game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
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11-19-2017, 04:54 AMMissboneWell maybe its a bad attiude if i have some principles, i cant help that. Its not my fault if the game gives me to less to do as healer, but honestly most time i dont feel this way. If people realy belive its bad behavior doing nothing sometimes for 3-5 seconds before the next hit comes than they have far greater problems then my playstyle. I would never expect from a tank or dd to help me with healing or a dd to tank thats not their job, so from my point of view its not realy unfair if i only focus on healing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miste
Sry but i have no idea what you talking about, i never had a single run where i didnt need to do anything. Like i said above, the biggest breake i had from time to time where like 3-5 seconds. Doing nothing looks a bit else to me sry. Btw. if a RDM would spam Vercure all the time he would be oom pretty fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
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11-19-2017, 05:00 AMHoodRatWith that same logic: why are you sometimes doing nothing for 3-5 seconds? The role is called healer, not afker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
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11-19-2017, 05:03 AMGhastly
Basically to put it in baby terms we need Yoshida to make all content like Hashmal from Rabanastre. Yoshida please give us extreme version of dungeons where regular enemies and bosses do twice as much damage or something fun like that and maybe the boss attacks happen faster or something.
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11-19-2017, 05:05 AMEnlaIt doesn't give you less to do though. There isn't a second during a fight when I'm playing as SCH when I'm not casting something and I often have to prioritize certain spells over others because of the sheer button bloat and use of all my abilities. Your issue is that there's less pure auto-healing in this game, which is fair. However just because it doesn't suit your playstyle doesn't mean that healers have less to do by any means and I say that as someone who doesn't care if my co-healer only focuses on heals so long as they do that job well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
The style of this game is designed around healers providing even just one dot for each encounter and keeping it up, with varying levels of skill between that being acceptable to get through fights. Literally that's all you need to do as a healer to contribute in most fights and I rarely see even that. As a WHM especially keeping your aero dots up between pulls is simple and contributes heavily to the DPS output.
I can also honestly say that if they made this game about pure heals and /only/ heals then I and many others would find it boring, especially since every encounter can still be done by a healer who wants to only 'heal' but just with some flack from their party. If that's a consistent issue for you, then honestly I recommend queuing with people you know instead. -
11-19-2017, 05:13 AMFyceA PLD using Hallowed Ground cannot receive damage for 10 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
If a tank does baby pulls while using some cooldowns, a single Regen of 21s duration is enough.
In a lot of low level dungeons, the fairy of a SCH is enough to completly heal any damage received during the whole dungeon.
Your "3-5 seconds of downtime" is a complete lie. People already made several videos of them doing nothing but healing through a dungeon to show how much downtime there is and how few healing spells you actually need to cast.
Your argument is old and has already been debunked more than once.
Edit: I'm realizing... How can you handle a "pure healer" playstyle from other games when you already find FFXIV's healing "challenging" enough? If FFXIV switched to a gameplay where you'd need to be healing 100% of the time, you will get completly overwhelmed. I hope that you are aware that your dream as "princess healers" will actually be your own doom. -
11-19-2017, 05:20 AMMoroMurasakiI can't be sure if you're a troll or not. This post is like riiiiiiight on the edge for me. Then again I'm not sure if I want you to be a troll so there's that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
I will say this - you seem very certain of the playstyle you desire, that being a more or less zero damage healer. Why in the world would you then play a healer in a game where healer DPS is such an ingrained part of the general mindset even among casual players? I would say, at least for FFXIV, you should stick to tanking or DPSing.
If you really have your heart set on playing a pure healer then go and find a game in which that is a thing, there's plenty out there from what I hear.
I'm not going to give you advice about MP management or the mitigation potential of Holy, not even the gigantic mitigation offered by enemies dying faster. You know why? Because you don't seem like the kind of person that cares about doing well even when it is detrimental to your group.
On the final note of your post I have offered a plethora of advice to players from all roles, everything from telling DRGs about the importance of Heavy Thrust to coaxing newer tanks into stance dancing on bosses. You know what the most common response is? Silence. I'd say a bit more than half the time the person I'm speaking to does the thing I said. I've certainly had many engaging conversations spring from it as well, once a tank and I got to talking at the end of a dungeon for an extra half hour about the WAR single target DPS potential and how he could do so much more.
So yes, explaining to people how to do their jobs can certainly make you friends. You just have to not be awful about it.
Edit!
Oh there was more! My bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
So now I see you aren't a troll, yay.
Do you get mad when a RDM or SMN raises people? That's helping with your healing after all, can't have that. I've witnessed RDMs heal a tank through the majority of a boss because I messed up and died or pulled it from the tank with that great WHM burst DPS (lol but true) so yes a RDM certainly can heal quite effectively.
It's been proven with a competent tank that Eos can heal all of Sastasha with literally no actions taken by the SCH other than moving. I get that maybe you don't get play SCH but if a glorified regen-bot (sorry Eos, harsh but true) can heal an entire dungeon then any healer can do it with huge amounts of downtime.
I think it was Taika who had a 17% active time run of something as a pure healer? That means 83% of their time spent in that dungeon was inactive.
I don't man to be rude but this is certainly going to seem rude - if you occasionally have 3-5 seconds of downtime in a dungeon someone healed with 83% afking then you are not very good. Whether you're overhealing out of boredom or maybe wearing tank gear or something... I don't know what you're doing wrong but trust me it's something major. Like, huge problems.
Or, y'know, you're lying about that down time. -
11-19-2017, 05:26 AMEnlaThey'd have to pry Holy from my cold-dead fingers if they ever forcibly shifted the meta towards a more 'pure' healing playstyle. I don't even use it for damage in most cases, though I remember the dreaded days of T4, just popping it a few seconds into a pull gives me enough time to top everyone off and throw out my own dots to help make the pull go that much smoother.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
That also brings me to another point. Where does SCH sit in this new meta people are proposing? That classes entire schtick is rooted in mitigation and damage output, to the point they had to GIVE US BACK A DOT a patch into Stormblood because their attempt to make our class more 'healing' focused was so woefully at odds with how the class should be played. We also had to get potency buffs across the board as well for our shields and aetherpact is still somemwhat under performing compared to a macro'd faerie. I'd hate to see what would happen to that class if the developers suddenly decided to shift the meta. They barely know what to do with it as is. -
11-19-2017, 05:32 AMMissboneSeems like you enjoy to making your opinion absolute. Whatever like i said i never encountered that what you describe, ok maybe it could be sometimes 5-7 seconds who knows i never stoped that time but it whas never long. Also i dont play scholar i simply dont like that class, the time one tank start with babypulls is maybe 1 of 10 ( or 1 o 9 whatever). Usually the tanks i have pull 2 groups at once, sometimes even 3 and if a tank realy starts with babypulls i tell him to pick 2 groups at once. I dont know what with what groups u usually play but i didnt have the time so far to just stand around and enjoying the view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
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11-19-2017, 05:39 AMBourne_EndeavorYou need to manage your timing better then because what you've said here just doesn't apply to anything. I have dabbled in all levels of content on WHM with the exception of Ultimate and none made it so I didn't have huge windows to DPS. And this was back when Cleric stance was still a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
If the tank does smaller pulls, you'll have to heal so infrequently, that RDM will cast Vercure maybe once. That's much more useful than a WHM who stands around doing absolutely nothing. Basically, unless the tank's doing mega pulls, you will have ample time to DPS. Even then, you can create openings with a Swiftcast + Holy -> Aero III combo. -
11-19-2017, 05:41 AMMoroMurasakiHonestly if they shifted towards a 'healers only heal' meta I don't know if I would still be here. Tree gin of healing (for me) is the adaptation. If you take away half my kit and I'm just a Cure II bot.... Why? I guess I've liked tanking so far, maybe I would switch mains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enla
But yes, they'd be prying Holy away from me as well. It's one of my favorite abilities in the game. There is little more satisfying than a PLD popping Hallowed at the end of a megapull and getting to throw up Cleric, PoM, Thin Air and just light everything on fire.
In terms of SCH it is certainly the healer I've played the least of this expansion so far. I loved it in HW and for me the Bane nerf just hit me right in the feelings. I appreciate the efforts of the devs with Miasma II but it just doesn't feel as powerful as spreading all those dots at full potency to 10+ enemies to me. It's also less spam-worthy compared to WHM/AST. I think SCH would have a hard time adapting to a pure healer world, they'd likely have to nerf fairies into the ground which would be a real hit to their identity. -
11-19-2017, 05:41 AMNaunetI think I made it pretty clear that I understand that the flaw is caused by the design of the game. You do not need to "explain" that to me. I was pointing out that it isn't unreasonable for people familiar with other MMOs to come to this one thinking that healers... heal. Because that is what they do in other MMOs. You said it was "completely absurd" for players to have some expectation like this, and I pointed out why it is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
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11-19-2017, 05:42 AMEnlaThat's been my experience as well on my alt. Swiftcast + Holy is something that all WHM should be using during pulls as it gives you that window to both top up the tank and to throw in some DPS, even if it's just an Aero II. Especially if you pair it with Piece of Mind, you can sneak in a lot of DPS that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
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11-19-2017, 05:46 AMMoroMurasakiGdi Cass, get HyoMin, we found another healer DPS debate that didn't start as one >.<Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
I will, of course, alert Tridus. I assume Sebazy's healerdpssense is tingling. -
11-19-2017, 05:49 AMEnlaI'd probably end up leaving the game as well. Healing is perhaps the only aspect of this game that's truly 'clicked' with me on a play level and I positively /love/ the challenge keeping people healed while DPSing as much as I can provides. It's so much fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
And yeah, SCH would honestly have to be scrapped if this sort of meta became the norm. The developers already don't know what to do with us and all their attempts to push us towards 'healing' have ended in disaster or a loss of class identity. If I can macro my faerie in such a way that makes the 70 skill all but useless, the skill that's PURELY there for 'oh shit' healing and nothing else, there's a problem.
Except that's not what they've done in any of the other MMO's I've played? I started in GW2 where every class had their own heal and was expected to share the load on top of DPSing. Then I went to LoTRO where even the 'pure' healers were expected to output damage as well. Finally I went to SWTOR where, you guessed it, damage was essential even as a heal spec'd Smuggler/Operative or Consular/Inquisitor. I've literally never played a game where 'pure' healing was part of the meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naunet
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11-19-2017, 06:00 AMMissboneI can enusre you thats whats im realy thinking. If i want to troll it looks more like the last line of my post. Why do play a healer if i dont like how things work here? Thats easy first i wanted to try them out of course and second its not that i dint have mutch choice than using the dungeonfinder when i whant to lvl them. Potd becomes after 60 very inefficient and with just doing dailys (witch i think are far to limited) it would take ages. Of course i dont get mad if a rdm or smn raises someone, but i dont expect them to do that its my job after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
If healer would be my main than maybe i would allready have quit the game ages ago. But thats not the case, my main is my rdm followed by the tank classes. If im doing well or not you can hardly judge from few textlines i would say. But i dont care, you have your opionion of me like i have mine of many others and thats totaly fine with me. Btw. sry for asking but do you realy want to compare the healing of the first dungeon (where you dont even need realy a tank) to healing in lvl 60-70 (or 50-60) dungeons? Just asking
I didnt where that often as healer in low lvl dungeons so i cant realy tell how mutch % of the time i could do nothing. I didnt counted the seconds where i have to do nothing, its more like feelt than a precise time, it could be more it could be less its not realy important to me.
Seems like i need to add the ironie tags next time or people dont realy understand what i meant. I dont have a problem if someones plays bad as long we finish the dungeon. Sure when something takes unnecesary long or we wipe few times i also think my part But it would never cross my mind to lecture or harass someone because of that. -
11-19-2017, 06:00 AMFyceNo, that's what you are doing. "Healers should only heal!". That's just your opinion, and it contradict with how the game is actually designed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
Then we are not playing the same game. Or you are only playing with terrible players. Or you simply don't know how to heal properly (which is the most likely since people already shown every time a thread like this shows up).Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
So? That doesn't prevent good healers from throwing a DoT, using a few Holy while still maintaining their tank alive. And it's not because you can't do it that it's the case for everyone. Besides, your very argument of "3-5 seconds of downtime" is flawed to begin with, as that's all it takes to cast your DoTs and a damage spell. People are just asking you to use these few seconds of downtime instead of waiting for the tank to lose 500 HP before casting a Cure which will give him back 9000.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
Double standards. If you don't want people to tell you how to play, then don't tell them either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
You spent you whole time on this thread basically saying to everyone that you'll only do what you want to do, even if the game isn't designed to be played like that. But when a tank wants to do the same thing, you'll tell him what you want him to do? Damn you princess healers. Nothing is too selfish for you, heh?
I would pay to see you play.
It's. Not. A. Flaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naunet
And again, you implied that FFXIV's healers don't heal. They do. But in FFXIV, they also do other things. What I called completly absurd, is the fact that some people cannot fathom this idea. The idea that a game may ask you to change your habits. That not all games are the same. Heck, are you spitting on MMORPG who deviated from the holy trinity because "they didn't do like the other games"? Again, that's absurd.
You are so dense, even a paid lightsaber from Battlefront II lootboxes wouldn't even scratch you. Because, yes, it seems that I have to explain some things to you, because it's already the third time and you still didn't get it. -
11-19-2017, 06:04 AMOscuraNow this is real savage content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
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11-19-2017, 06:07 AMMaekaI disagree highly. Well, partially.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayward
I do not want another WoW where a tank goes from 100% to 20% to 100% to 20% to 100% to 20% every 3 seconds. That would make me quit this game faster than you could drop a potato. I LIKE the laid-back nature of the game's tanking and healing. I LIKE how you have TIME to do other stuff. I LIKE the variety of gameplay, where I can throw some DPS spells as a healer.
Now, I don't like the parsing fanatics who think you must 110% every single dungeon in the game, and that you're wasting their precious 2-5 minutes per clear if you don't, but yet the cure would be far worse than the disease if we did what the OP is implying we should do.
You would essentially be killing off what I love about FFXIV dungeons.
The problem isn't the game, it's the elitism. The game's mechanics are fine. -
11-19-2017, 06:10 AMHyoMinParkThis is incredibly incorrect. If your DPS skills were not intended to be used in group content, they would be greyed out just like Cleric Stance was in the old PvP. There is literally no reason to stand idle for half of an instance or more. Not even Savage requires 80% healing uptime. I'm sorry, but any time I see a healer standing around doing nothing, unless they are new to the instance, I consider them incredibly lazy. You should Always Be Casting. Especially if you play WHM because WHM MP management is godly now, not to mention they have the strongest DPS of all three healers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
This is FFXIV; not some other MMO. Not all games play alike.Quote:
Have ever read sutch nonses about healers in any other mmo?
I'm all for healing being more engaging, but the developers are never going to require massive amounts of healing in anything except Savage/Ultimate because a lot of the more casual playerbase will complain that it's "too hard." Just look at all the cries the OF had about needing ShinEx because it was "too hard" on healers or had "too many mechanics."Quote:
Maybe SE should simply increase the manacost multiplier for dmg skills in dungeons and raids by 3x or 4x, maybe than people will understand that its not a healers job to do dmg. Damage from healers should be allways only be optional (if the healer feels like it) and never a must have.
Increasing MP costs of DPS spells seems like a shoddy way to discourage healer DPS. Quite frankly, if the developers ever greyed out my DPS skills as a healer in duties, I would stop playing healers. I find the heal-bot playstyle incredibly annoying. I dislike being forced into the solo-healing role in 8-mans or 24-mans because I enjoy weaving in damage as a healer. Makes the roles a lot less boring. Because, again, nothing in this game requires a healer to be healing 80-90% of an instance.
Healers should share healing and DPSing in 8-mans or 24-mans. They should contribute equally to both, and contributing healer DPS to the over all party or raid DPS is what I consider good teamwork.
The developers have all the means to disable healer DPS in instances. But I think they know that, if they do that, a lot of players will stop playing healers because they don't like a heal-only playstyle.
Of course you will. And any healer that spams AOE heals as a means to heal one or two people is a bad healer. There is no other or nicer way to say that.Quote:
Btw. if you only spam AOE heal like some people here say you will run out oom very fast and it will be harder to keep the tank alive because they are not so strong as the singel target spells.
I mean, I already call people out sometimes when the DPS are refusing to AOE large packs and the tanks won't use CDs. If you see someone not pulling their weight, sometimes it's extremely hard to stay silent, even though most people do.Quote:
But maybe i should also start explaining DDs and Tanks how they should play there class if they dont perform how i like. Im sure i will make many friends this way. :D
The "harassment" that people say is so pervasive about healers DPSing is really not as pervasive as people like to claim it is. Most people suck it up and deal with it. But really shouldn't have to. -
11-19-2017, 06:15 AMSelovaYou really just need to stop while you're ahead. You clearly don't understand how the healer in FFXIV functions, If you are really spending close to your entire time healing like you claim you are either healing people that are full hp aka overhealing or you have a extremely high hp healing threshold where you are constantly healing people even if they take a sliver of damage. You use the excuse that you would go oom constantly if you were to start doing damage, the only reason you could possibly be oom is because you have a extremely high healing threshold, therefore completely wasting your mana by using massive heals on your party when it's not needed resulting in incredibly high overheals aka completely wasting your mana. You are literally gimping yourself and your healing by doing this. There is no reason to constantly top people off at high thresholds, an efficient healer understands how scripted and predictable damage works and understands there is no reason to waste your mana on heals when healing is not needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
It really sounds like your new to healing and need practice, because if you are indeed going oom just healing, I know for a fact that your healing threshold is at least over 70%. You need to do some research on how scripted and predictable damage works in this game, what separates the good healers from the bad healers is the hp threshold and understanding that just because someone takes damage doesn't mean they immediately need healed, they aren't going to take a 90% hp crit to the face randomly, everything is predictable and you know when the damage is going to go out and for how much.
I leveled a scholar from 1-70 before the mp adjustments, a job that was notorious for having mana issues due to high mp costs and i never, not once went oom during any content due to me using mana for my damaging spells, not once. That means there is absolutely zero reason you are unable to pump out damage, you are just unwilling to because you have this stubborn, set in your ways mind-set that you don't need to heal and that you are efficiently fulfilling your role, when you aren't. This mentality and play style isn't going to do you any favors in the long run. I'd be more then happy to recommend to you some excellent healing guides on how to play your role more efficiently and optimally, but that's only if you are willing to learn and understand that the pure healer mind-set isn't going to get you far and that adjustments need to be made if you plan on doing any type of end-game content. Cheers. -
11-19-2017, 06:20 AMMoroMurasakiIt's clear one of two things is happening here; either you're incapable of understanding my posts or you're playing dumb. I personally don't care which but it does mean this feels a bit like talking to a wall. Or a particularly poorly formatted bot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
I will assert that with the information you're providing in this thread I can say with relative surety you are an inefficent and ineffective healer. I don't need to see you heal to say this because you have admitted to the one thing that makes anyone bad at any role - large swathes of downtime.
You're digging the hole deeper by saying you don't offer help to struggling players. It isn't harassing someone to explain part of their rotation, it's called being helpful. If you see someone fall down a flight of stairs do you ignore them unless they ask for help? This "Harrassment! Lecturing! You don't pay my sub, la la la la I can't hear you!" mentality that you have is something that other players make a joke about all the time but you are the living, breathing embodiment of that playstyle.
But you're right, I don't pay your sub and you don't pay mine. Now where did I put my votekick button...
Hyomin! You came! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
I missed your wordiness. -
11-19-2017, 06:21 AMMaeka
RE:Selova: Your Enter Key says Hi. I think it's lonely.
That said, I can vouch for the fact that you can in fact do at least some DPS and you should never go OOM. If you (talking to Missbone here) OOM, at least as a WHM because you DPS'd, then you are playing very badly.
I don't maximize DPS, but I do throw Aero IIIs when I feel I can safely, and I'll even try to sneak a Holy in when there's enough mobs that I think that it is beneficial. Bosses get pounded with Stone IVs during times when everybody's full and I know nobody's gonna get hit in the next 3+ seconds.
I have never, ever, ever run out of MP in any Level 70 dungeon as a WHM. Never. There was even this time when a tank mashed sprint from the getgo, didn't use his CDs and pulled 3 groups at once and I did nonstop Cure2 and cooldowns to keep him alive. Ended the fight with 25% MP left and Lucid on cooldown, but still didn't run out of MP.
I do not understand how it is even POSSIBLE to run out of MP anymore. -
11-19-2017, 06:29 AMEnlaIt literally is impossible for WHM if they're rotating Lucid and Thin Air properly. Gone are the days when simply looking at your MP bar even for a second would cause it to vanish in a puff of smoke, with WHM easily wrestling the most MP efficient title away from SCH with ease. The /only/ way I can see someone running out of MP is if they only cast Cure III or Medica/II exclusively, which as has been discussed is a VERY bad way to play this or any other healing class. Especially with Cure III as that spell is primarily proximity based and most of the time the party is spread too thinly for it to be effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
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11-19-2017, 06:30 AMMaeka
Also, I think I will mention my official stance on Healer DPS:
I believe that you should be doing something most of the time. I am not a player who insists that you "waste" no more than 0.1 sec every GCD, but yet I feel that if you stand around for more than a second or two without reason (waiting for an AoE, or waiting for an incoming big hit you know is coming, or what-not), then you probably should do SOMETHING, and that something is throw DPS spells. Even just an Aero 1 at something, it has no cast time, surely you can do at least that, right?
I do not believe that every healer should try to maximize DPS to the point they gear for DPS, and they constantly try to DPS hardcore, unless you are looking to join a raiding FC/Linkshell/whatever that does actual raids (and not the Duty Finder raids) or Savage content of any sort.
If you're just doing Duty Finder junk, you do not need to maximize your DPS while healing. It's just not necessary. You shouldn't be wasting time and resources frivolously, but yet I don't see where you have to maximize either. Duty Finder is supposed to be relaxing and fun. I don't have fun when I'm being expected to make absolutely no mistakes whatsoever and am given zero room for error. That's why I don't do Savage content. I'm not a pro player and I freely admit that.
I'm actually kind of lazy compared to those people, but even I will throw DPS spells when I feel comfortable. Everybody has their comfort zone, and I tend to err on the side of caution as I do some overhealing, but I don't do it to the extreme where I waste 75% of my cures either.
I think a lot of people who yell at healers for not DPSing, are doing so with the healers who are standing around with their fingers someplace they shouldn't be doing absolutely nothing.
As lazy as I am, and as lacking in pro skills as I am, I have never once got yelled at, or vote-kicked. I get commendations rather often. It isn't too uncommon for me to see 3/3 in Duty Finder.
EDIT: RE: Enla: Sometimes I forget to hit Lucid, lol. I know that's just me the player being bad, but every so often I'll glance down at my MP and see I'm at 20-30% and I'm like "GAAH!" and throw Lucid up, but even then I STILL don't run out of MP. -
11-19-2017, 06:35 AMHyoMinParkIf you only do content like dungeons and 24-mans, there is literally never a time where damage is incoming every 3-5 seconds. Not even on the MT. Take the third boss in Rabanastre: aside from occasionally bopping the main tank, it does absolutely nothing in terms of AOE raid damage in the first 30 seconds—more so if people move out of the Crush Weapon AOEs. How can you justify standing idle for that long?Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
Even when I get tanks that do large pulls in dungeons, I can still weave in offensive magic to help down the group faster. You play WHM, right? You have access to the strongest healer AOE in this game: Holy. Which provides a stun for 3 casts before diminishing returns kicks in. That alone is not only powerful DPS, but mitigation. Stunned mobs cannot hit the tank. Thin Air > Presence of Mind > Holy is godly in large pulls in dungeons. I honestly get disappointed when I don’t see WHMs spamming it unless, again, they are brand new to the duty and still unsure.
You must have been doing a lot of overhealing, because again, there is no instance where outgoing damage occurs every 3-5 seconds in content like dungeons or 24-mans. Maybe during Neo’s Neverwhere punchy-punchy he does before V4S enrage, but even then, healers can DPS until he reaches around 7 stacks of damage up before they have to switch to primarily healing. A good healer can opt solo-heal the damage while the other continues to DPS, or they can tag team healing and DPSing. That’s how teamwork works.Quote:
Sry but i have no idea what you talking about, i never had a single run where i didnt need to do anything. Like i said above, the biggest breake i had from time to time where like 3-5 seconds. Doing nothing looks a bit else to me sry. Btw. if a RDM would spam Vercure all the time he would be oom pretty fast.
A RDM Vercure hits for slightly less than a WHM’s Cure. Dualcasting it hits for about as much as a Cure II. In boss fights, you won’t need a RDM to be “spamming” Vercure, but only use it every once in a while. May detract from their personal DPS, but they would still be doing more than an idle healer.
I see that you have also stated in this thread that, if a tank does baby pulls, you will tell him to pull more. That would be fine, if you hadn’t also said that people shouldn’t tell you how to play your game. Don’t tell others how to play theirs if you don’t want people telling you how to play yours. Simple as that.
That being said, if I were your tank and saw you standing around idly, you can be sure I would pull as much as I could. If you want to work, then I’m going to make you work. Sorry if that sounds rude, but I find it incredibly rude to have an idle healer in my group. While I’ve never kicked a healer for not DPSing, nor said anything to them outright unless I’m in an incredibly foul mood (which I usually avoid dungeons when I am), I still don’t like seeing it. It’s laziness, and not good teamwork. And it just makes a run last longer than it would if you were contributing to DPS.
Healers can usually pull anywhere from 15% to 20% of the total damage of a run for a 4-man dungeon; 10% to 15% for 8-mans. That is certainly nothing to scoff at. -
11-19-2017, 06:36 AMMoroMurasakiI find any situation I'm going to go OOM on is usually a wipe either way. Things have to reeeeeeealy hit the fan to the point I'm hardcasting multiple raises and have burned through all my CDs to keep people standing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enla
I joined a shin practice party like that. People were literally falling off to Tidal Wave. The MT did several times and each time the OT (who was not second on threat) would take upwards of 15 seconds to Provoke the boss. This meant someone squishy (usually me, thanks HoT aggro) taking autos. You burn everything you have covering for a few mistakes then leave yourself with nothing left for the next round of mistakes.
But yes, very hard to go OOM on WHM. You pretty much will die first. -
11-19-2017, 06:50 AMMissboneWhat a shame and i realy thought you where a smart and nice person, but with that comment you clearly showed that u are not better than all these dungeon elitist i encountered so far. In my expirence its nothing bad to stay silent and your thoughts for yourself, if someone realy wants help he usually asks for it. Also if i realy see someone falling down the stairs it highly depends on the impression i get from the person if im willing to help or not. This make me maybe sound like an asshole but i seen far to many ungratfull people (someone even get mad at you) than that im willing to help blindly everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
I dont think that you are a bad person but to me it seems that you are not able (like many others here) to handle persons well that have their own opinion (witch dosnt fit your own) and stick with it. -
11-19-2017, 06:52 AMEnlaTrue, I definitely forgot the moments when the shit hits the fan as an example for when you'll go OOM! Thankfully though I've felt that WHM in particular is the easiest to recover when that happens? I've only gotten WHM and SCH to 70 so I can't speak to how AST plays at higher levels, but between the former two I always felt I could salvage the situation a lot easier with WHM. SCH is no slouch either, but Energy Drain takes up an Aetherflow stack that could have gone to a Lustrate or Excogitation (that might save a newly rezz'd person or tank) instead so it's often a matter of picking your poison.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
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11-19-2017, 06:54 AMMaekaI'm the cautious sort with a mix of bad luck on the side.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
About the time I would blow stuff like PoM or Swiftcast, I would find myself needing it before it's ready again and end up being SOL. Like, Swiftcast a Holy and 2 seconds later, some idiot DPS decides to eat two AoEs simultaneously and is now dead. Gee, wish I had Swiftcast....
That, and I'm not the fastest around when it comes to some of the hotbar buttons. I put the important abilities I must use constantly or in 'blink and die' situations on buttons I can reach fast, but Swiftcast I've pretty much consigned to being "Instant Raise" and I save it purely for that. If I have to instant-raise someone, I will have a few seconds of planning, and thus time to get its button ready to cast it.
Not the optimal setup, but meh. I blame ability bloat for having far too many abilities on my hotbar. -
11-19-2017, 06:59 AMKacho_Nacho/laughQuote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
Well, Hyomin has arrived. (/happy) But, where's Tridus and Seabazy? We are in the part of the debate where the thread troll just played the victim card. -
11-19-2017, 07:01 AMMaekaSo what you're saying is that if you enter a Lv70 dungeon where you've got a tank who never uses AoE threat and let's the DPS tank the mobs, it's bad to votekick the guy because "they have their own opinion"? Where do you draw the line in where a votekick is justified?Quote:
Originally Posted by Missbone
I don't like excessive votekicking either, but seriously, out of ALL, I mean ALL of the Duty Finder I've done, I've participated in <5 votekicks that were for anything other than AFK/Disconnect purposes. Pretty sure that this is only 1-2 but I will say <5 to be sure.
I really, REALLY hate the forum system. 1000 characters is just asinine.