Tank Balance Achieved?

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

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That was only true in Gordias when DPS checks were insane and PLD was really underpowered.
Once PLD got buffed, they were doing comparable DPS as WAR/DRK and dps check weren't as tight.
PLD could have been viable at that time but their utility (and I include RoH, Delirium, Path debuffs) didn't fit well with the magic damage nature of fights. Hence, they were still left out.

I ain't saying that divine veil or the likes will make or break a fight but it still gives you more tools to recover or tackle a situation.
In V4S, the heal checks are really tight and divine veil, intervention and Passage of arms (and any other raid mitigation) do help significantly while we're undergeared.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

I ain't saying that divine veil or the likes will make or break a fight but it still gives you more tools to recover or tackle a situation.
In V4S, the heal checks are really tight and divine veil, intervention and Passage of arms (and any other raid mitigation) do help significantly while we're undergeared.

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I will take your word on that since i have not reached V4S yet and my opinion on PLD might change but as I stated on the OP so far PLD utility hasn't really do much for my group since we have exelent healers kinda blows any mitigation I can offer out of the water.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

In o4s I haven't tried going as a war since my partner wanted to use drk, but judging from the boss ability timing, you'd be able to holmgang all 3 delta attacks and hallowed ground on 2 out of 3 double attacks

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Just want to correct myself, apparently delta attacks are at least 5 mins apart from each other, so even with pld/drk you can LD all three of them and still use HG twice on double attacks.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

I will take your word on that since i have not reached V4S yet and my opinion on PLD might change but as I stated on the OP so far PLD utility hasn't really do much for my group since we have exelent healers kinda blows any mitigation I can offer out of the water.

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Then I'm looking forward to your group getting into V4S :-)
Our healers are excellent and have had no issues healing V1-3S while DPSing a ton. I consider our healers among the top players of my static.
V4S is the fun still I've heard them say "I can't heal this...".
Took them quite some time to optimize heals and get the whole group to use every mitigation ability we have.
Also trying to convince DPS to meld VIT.

Here's a compilation of tank performance results for Deltascape so far.

http://i.imgur.com/3o93eQhl.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/OFqFp8Gl.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/U7kOUZYl.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/QYg3Tsjl.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/DCXmqt1l.png

The majority of the discussion on the forums has been on "utility" vs. damage. Utility is a catch-all phrase that is used to describe things which might benefit the group but doesn't necessarily translate directly into damage. The prevailing groupthink being that WAR has to strive oh-so-hard to compete with their PLD overlords' superior damage and utility.

But the figures show otherwise. WAR fairly comfortably outperforms the other two tanks across all skill levels on nearly every fight. A lot of this likely comes from the 4.05 changes, which revert most of the SB resource costs on WAR and then some. Gauge costs are even cheaper than they were in HW, while DRK has to pay large amounts of potency to access even their basic mitigation kit, let alone their "utility" skill.

Is the discrepancy balanced out by a single-target bubble which costs 25% of your resources and is a dps loss in the long term? Probably not.

What people subjectively report as "difficulty optimising" generally refers to the amount of skill investment required to produce an incremental gain in dps. In other words, the slope of the graph. This will largely depend on where you are on the graph. In general, these anecdotal reports aren't generally talking about how to get from the 90th to 99th percentile (which is where the slope is at its steepest).

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Originally Posted by ovIm

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The main problem that I have with the word "utility" in these discussions is that it's often used to describe things that often don't confer a benefit. I can shield a WAR with TBN on a tankbuster for 25% of my MP and a minor dps loss, but there's no point in doing so if they're more than capable of surviving on their own by having access to largest free mitigation suite in the game. It's fun, yes. If it's balanced as a dps gain (as it was in 4.01 for a whopping 4 potency per use), then it's just a personal dps gain, not utility.

The discussion of raid mitigation tools is a valid one that affects both WAR and DRK. I think that it would be less of an issue if PLD didn't have both Passage and Veil. But you also can't balance this against personal and raid dps boosts.

You can call 100% uptime buffs like Maim "synergy" or whatever cute phrases you like, but when they're mandatory for at least a quarter of your raid group, they still influence comp meta. Personally, I think that these should have been removed outright along with the old 100% raid mitigation buffs, like HW's Path and INT down buffs. This is not active synergy. You might as well make it a trait: 'Must bring one of these three jobs to enter instance'. The slashing buff was one of HW's major balance problems, and it still hasn't entirely gone away.

Pretty much any attempts that the devs made to rebalance WAR with the other two tanks at the start of SB has been reversed, and then some (now with even more Fell Cleave bot spam). The bigger issue, however, is the fact that they've shown a willingness to capitulate to the demands of an outspoken playerbase, and the loudest voice inevitably wins out. Don't like an ability? Complain about it and design a completely new one. Instead of seeing discussion on how to actually play the jobs better and tackle these supposedly 'difficult optimisations', we're instead inundated with Shake it off design contest threads.

It gets tiresome after a while, yeah?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Here's a compilation of tank performance results for Deltascape so far.

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Hmm, think one issue you have, specifically on O4 (and a bit O3) is that the number of WAR's that have cleared are less then 25% of the number of DRK's or PLD. With the number of WAR clears so low, the skill level of these players could be very different from the overall pop.

O2 is good example of WAR skill, based on timing in that fight I am finding it much harder to optimize my windows compared to O1 where it is pretty much just follow rotation. If we look at that fight numbers are very close at all levels. You also run into issues if many WAR's are playing like HW, dps stance all day every day, while many DRK/Pally showing more willingness to sit in tank stance (Note I am not saying that is right, just something I see and feel is happening). Personally, I think that is why you only see the numbers of Pally/WAR matching after 80%.

Bear in mind, WAR has no potency costs associated with changing stance, allowing you to reach the absolute minimum required stance uptime. On DRK, Grit costs 18% of your MP. TBN costs another 25%. If you wanted to DA DM, that's also 25%. It's easy to look at DRK and say "Oh, this looks pretty good for magic fights," but it actually ends up being fairly costly. Resource-based mitigation works only if you're doing intrinsically more dps at baseline. If you're paying potency on most of your defensive abilities just to mitigate and do less damage at baseline on top of that, it's easy to see why you're going to end up with lower dps at all percentiles. Some of this overly defensive play probably comes out of conserving resources to survive fight mechanics.

I think another factor in this is that Delirium and Blood Weapon require a lot of awareness of fight timings. It's easy to mistime these windows and just lose a bunch of dps without realising it. The key difference with SB is that HW's DRK told you outright when you played poorly. You'd lose Darkside, would get locked out of most of your abilities, and you'd probably wipe the group. SB isn't so obvious about this, and there's no strict rotation so it's often not clear when and where you're hemorrhaging dps.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The main problem that I have with the word "utility" in these discussions is that it's often used to describe things that often don't confer a benefit. I can shield a WAR with TBN on a tankbuster for 25% of my MP and a minor dps loss, but there's no point in doing so if they're more than capable of surviving on their own by having access to largest free mitigation suite in the game. It's fun, yes. If it's balanced as a dps gain (as it was in 4.01 for a whopping 4 potency per use), then it's just a personal dps gain, not utility.

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See, the thing is, as much as utility might or might not benefit a group, and I agree that PLD utility is situational and will become less and less required the better a fight is learned, the main discussion point here is balance. Balance is achieved when all things, added up, have a value that is about the same. The only differentiating factor between WAR/DRK and PLD are those few skills. That means PLD has something the others do not, and that puts him in a must have position, something we wanted to avoid. People bicker about this point because we are back in a 3.x situation that we did not want to have again. I was a WAR main and i absolutely despised the fact that not all combinations were perfectly viable, and that WAR was a must have OT in every raid. That made the game stale imho.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The discussion of raid mitigation tools is a valid one that affects both WAR and DRK. I think that it would be less of an issue if PLD didn't have both Passage and Veil. But you also can't balance this against personal and raid dps boosts.

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You are absolutely right there, I agree with you. I think this is the general issue people have here, though it gets worded and filed under "utility".

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You can call 100% uptime buffs like Maim "synergy" or whatever cute phrases you like, but when they're mandatory for at least a quarter of your raid group, they still influence comp meta. Personally, I think that these should have been removed outright along with the old 100% raid mitigation buffs, like HW's Path and INT down buffs. This is not active synergy. You might as well make it a trait: 'Must bring one of these three jobs to enter instance'. The slashing buff was one of HW's major balance problems, and it still hasn't entirely gone away.

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Another point I agree with. There is no point to have "mandatory" debuffs to maintain, as that limits grouping options and favors some compositions over others. The slashing debuff they could have removed just as much as the int down debuff.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Pretty much any attempts that the devs made to rebalance WAR with the other two tanks at the start of SB has been reversed, and then some (now with even more Fell Cleave bot spam). The bigger issue, however, is the fact that they've shown a willingness to capitulate to the demands of an outspoken playerbase, and the loudest voice inevitably wins out. Don't like an ability? Complain about it and design a completely new one. Instead of seeing discussion on how to actually play the jobs better and tackle these supposedly 'difficult optimisations', we're instead inundated with Shake it off design contest threads.

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Well, I have made an entire thread about what I think about Fell Cleave spam on WAR, but the tl;dr is that I think that IR reduced the WAR from a versatile tank to a class that spams fell cleaves, something I find extremely boring. Current DRK gameplay and proper usage of TBN is way more interesting and rewarding than getting ready to press 1 button 6 times imho, though it seems like SqEx is still unsure about wether TBN should be a personal gain or a loss.
The change to the stance dance penalty however was well required, and I am glad that the devs did listen to player feedback here. Of course I do hope that the devs dont just blindly follow the forums but evaluate player opinion, same as what happened with Mch back in 3.x (remember Yoshi-P saying "you are not playing the job right"?)

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It gets tiresome after a while, yeah?

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I understand what you mean. Currently, the forums are full of feedback and change proposal threads. However, that also means that the playerbase cares enough to spend their time doing this. I have only started posting on the forums because of SB, because I believe that with good feedback and positive thinking, you can assist the devs in finding issues that they might not have seen.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

seems like SqEx is still unsure about wether TBN should be a personal gain or a loss.

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Just going off those graphs that Lythia posted, its clear they have plenty of room to allow it to be a personal gain.

At the risk of repeating myself, I'll agree that spamming Fell Cleaves isn't the most interesting thing in the world. But I see some people proposing Inner Release become a damage buff. So we'll go from spamming 6 Fell Cleaves, to maybe spamming 3, before going back spamming Storm's Path. I don't see how that would make Warrior more interesting. If anything, it would simplify things and just make Warrior the easiest tank to play. Please no.

We need something new. Some additional mechanic that uses the beast gauge that forces Warriors to make decisions and that ultimately rewards them with high amounts of damage. Because right now, the only decision we're able to make is when the best time to use Inner Release is.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

At the risk of repeating myself, I'll agree that spamming Fell Cleaves isn't the most interesting thing in the world. But I see some people proposing Inner Release become a damage buff. So we'll go from spamming 6 Fell Cleaves, to maybe spamming 3, before going back spamming Storm's Path. I don't see how that would make Warrior more interesting. If anything, it would simplify things and just make Warrior the easiest tank to play. Please no.

We need something new. Some additional mechanic that uses the beast gauge that forces Warriors to make decisions and that ultimately rewards them with high amounts of damage. Because right now, the only decision we're able to make is when the best time to use Inner Release is.

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IMO what would make it interesting would be unlinking Inner Release from Unchained (which is flawed concept anyway) and allowing IR in Defiance as well. Update Inner Beast:

Inner Beast
Added Effect:
*If already under the effect of Inner Beast:
- Potency increased to 420
- Duration extended by 6 seconds

With IR usable in both, WAR now has an Defiance alternative IR/Zerk rotation - while lesser than FCbot, it is competitive and gives awesome defense. I think that is where I want them to go, plus the DR blanket Inner Beast now provides gives time in which to guilt-free tank in Deliverance. Add a +crit rate to Unchained because without it's still inferior to to just swapping to Deliverance, which would be available for Defiance burst but not Deliverance. And it'd be a boon to WAR at early levels.

I actually love that idea! Very creative! I once proposed being able to use Fell Cleave in Defiance, but this is so much cooler! Plus it would fix Unchained being a dead skill.

Also, allowing Inner Release in Defiance would let us spam Inner Beast for some pretty good heals. That would make up for the fact that we no longer have Bloodbath. However, I think this might be too strong. Maybe cut the healing of the "enhanced" Inner Beast in half? Also, extending the damage reduction for an extra 6 seconds would be too strong considering we'd be able to spam it 5-6 extra times. Just making it do more damage would be enough.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

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There are two problems with talking about "overall balance" when it comes to tanks. First, there are some things that you just can't do a proper comparison on. How does more frequent raid mitigation compare to higher raid dps? You can strike a balance between personal and raid dps, but when you add mitigation and self-healing to the mix, it becomes a comparison between apples and oranges.

Second, as a tank, you can't afford to fall too far behind in any one area. It's possible to be overpowered in one domain and underpowered in another. They tried this with the "physical tank" and "magical tank" in HW, but it just encouraged players to swap jobs on a fight-by-fight basis.

There are a few different domains in which need to be balanced independently: raid dps, personal mitigation, raid mitigation, and self-sustain.

With regards to TBN, I don't think the devs are specifically balancing around it. The value of TBN depends on the relative potency of Bloodspiller to that of your average combo action. Make Bloodspiller more powerful, and TBN becomes more powerful. Make combo actions more powerful, then TBN becomes less so. What happened over the past two patches is this: in 4.01, Bloodspiller was buffed out of Grit. This made it a dps gain on average. In 4.05, SE was buffed. This made it a dps loss on average. In both patches, it is never a consistent gain or loss, either, as it depends on which GCD combo action it replaces.

What probably happened was this. The devs created an ability which blocks an attack for either yourself or a friend. And when the shield shatters, you launch into a counterattack! That feels pretty fun! And they probably didn't think about it a whole lot further.

The problem is that most of DRK's new actions are interrelated, so flat potency gains just shift around your priorities, rather than giving you the needed dps boost. DRK's issues at the moment are resource related, rather than potency related. That's why the Quietus change made such a fantastic difference to DRK's AoE gameplay. MP is potency. Blood is potency.

About IR and unchained : Why is unchained an ability designed to allow us to deal more damages in tank, thus keeping us in defiance with increased damage benefits, and IR is not an ability allowing us to increase resistance in deliverance ?

The fact they both have the same effect, except one is tied to more dps in an already DPS role is absurd. And it would soften the whole "My dps revolves around a 2min timer" if the warrior had his DPS balanced withouth accounting for IR spamtime.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

IMO what would make it interesting would be unlinking Inner Release from Unchained (which is flawed concept anyway) and allowing IR in Defiance as well. Update Inner Beast

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Really glad someone else has pointed this out. I mean our level 70 ability is a dps increase ability as a tank class? Although I love doing damage as a tank I know it isn't the primary job of the class and we should be given more tools to survive. This change would make our defiance do a lot more damage closer to being in deliverance while giving us another rampart if inner beast would be changed to extend its duration (maybe by 4-5 secs instead of 6) not to mention the insane healing we would get as well.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

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IR is mostly compensation for taking away Wrath gain from Berserk, RI, and Vengeance. But right, even with that in mind why is it locked to Deliverance.

Add +20% Healing Received to Thrill of Battle, and put that on a shared/locked cooldown with Unchained if they wanted something of a 'Defiance in Deliverance' and a 'Deliverance in Defiance' paradigm.

But I'm not a fan of those concepts anymore. FellCleave/InnerBeast & SteelCyclone/Decimate is enough of a duality paradigm IMO. Why are they adding more when IB/FC & Dec/SC are still not where they need to be,

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

IR is mostly compensation for taking away Wrath gain from Berserk, RI, and Vengeance.

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No, the compensation for taking away wrath stacks from Berserk, RI and Vengeance is the new Storm's Path. IR is just another DPS cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Add +20% Healing Received to Thrill of Battle, and put that on a shared/locked cooldown with Unchained if they wanted something of a 'Defiance in Deliverance' and a 'Deliverance in Defiance' paradigm.

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I'm not going to get in the duality thing(since I'm mostly on the side of "warrior offence and defense should be directly tied together somehow ") but I just wanted to agree with you here and say that thrill should have a 20% increased heal on it anyway. It's just an extra, small heal on a big cooldown and is only really useful for upheaval as is.

I still think the biggest issue regarding tank balance (for progression) atm is PLD's utility. DRK's TBN isn't really utility either. it's comparable to Intervention.
Since it's probably tough to give DRK and WAR as much utility, easiest would be to either lower damage or survivabilty of PLD or take away most of it's utility.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

I still think the biggest issue regarding tank balance (for progression) atm is PLD's utility. DRK's TBN isn't really utility either. it's comparable to Intervention.
Since it's probably tough to give DRK and WAR as much utility, easiest would be to either lower damage or survivabilty of PLD or take away most of it's utility.

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Don't nerf pld! :(

It shouldn't be all that tough to add it at all. There's lots of ways they can.

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Originally Posted by Umbeliel

Don't nerf pld! :(

It shouldn't be all that tough to add it at all. There's lots of ways they can.

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I don't think most are asking for pld nerds, at least from what I read. They instead are asking for something to set the other tanks as not the automatic ot. I could be wrong though. I posted in the nerf pld thread, but mine was mainly tounge in cheek because so many pld say utility doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Second, as a tank, you can't afford to fall too far behind in any one area. It's possible to be overpowered in one domain and underpowered in another. They tried this with the "physical tank" and "magical tank" in HW, but it just encouraged players to swap jobs on a fight-by-fight basis.

There are a few different domains in which need to be balanced independently: raid dps, personal mitigation, raid mitigation, and self-sustain.

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Hm, honestly, after reading this, I am sure I could have worded a lot of what I wrote differently. Thanks for your input, it is much appreciated!
I think when I spoke about Utility, I mainly meant raid wide mitigation. Seeing as the tanks seem to be rather balanced in raid dps and personal mitigation, raid mitigation is something where PLD currently has a huge advantage over the other 2 tanks. This is the cause for my current opinion.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

What probably happened was this. The devs created an ability which blocks an attack for either yourself or a friend. And when the shield shatters, you launch into a counterattack! That feels pretty fun! And they probably didn't think about it a whole lot further.
The problem is that most of DRK's new actions are interrelated, so flat potency gains just shift around your priorities, rather than giving you the needed dps boost. DRK's issues at the moment are resource related, rather than potency related. That's why the Quietus change made such a fantastic difference to DRK's AoE gameplay. MP is potency. Blood is potency.

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Good writeup, I couldnt agree more. One thing I might want to add, something that sometimes seems to be overlooked is that TBN ensures that a healer has to heal 10k HP less than what he usually heals, meaning he could technically throw in at least one more damage spell. This easily makes TBN a group DPS gain in my opinion, however, I can see that this is kinda situational.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

I still think the biggest issue regarding tank balance (for progression) atm is PLD's utility. DRK's TBN isn't really utility either. it's comparable to Intervention.
Since it's probably tough to give DRK and WAR as much utility, easiest would be to either lower damage or survivabilty of PLD or take away most of it's utility.

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Im sure that no one honestly wants to have PLD stripped of its identity. The class is currently well designed and their kit is good the way it is. What DRK and WAR should receive are some raid mitigation tools of their own, to level the field.

i think wars utility should be damage while dark needs passanger removed replaced with scourge and shadow wall should be increased to 40%. both war and dark need a dot returned, war should have a dot added into an already existing ability i dont wannna be clunked down even more unless they are willing to make shake it off provide a bonus to warriot other then a removal of a debuff.

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Originally Posted by Tufelhunden

I don't think most are asking for pld nerds, at least from what I read. They instead are asking for something to set the other tanks as not the automatic ot. I could be wrong though. I posted in the nerf pld thread, but mine was mainly tounge in cheek because so many pld say utility doesn't matter.

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Pld should be the default OT, not the other tanks lol. Cover is free 20% mitigation and makes tank swap unnecessary, intervention is up every 20-30s, so you can use it on the other tank pretty often. Combining sentinel or rampart and intervention is also good for things that hit both tanks like terminal antilight.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Pld should be the default OT, not the other tanks lol. Cover is free 20% mitigation and makes tank swap unnecessary, intervention is up every 20-30s, so you can use it on the other tank pretty often. Combining sentinel or rampart and intervention is also good for things that hit both tanks like terminal antilight.

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And it's annoying that so many ppl don't get this.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Pld should be the default OT, not the other tanks lol.

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MT priority DRK, PLD, WAR

DRK is happy being hit to deal dmg back. Warrior has harder dps rotation to PLD, abilities gated behind dps stance. Tank stance is naturally worse when swapped into meaning you need to tank stance earlier (get healed/hit IB). Also its more sensitive to mechanics lowering dps. Not all the above is always relevant but its reason behind WAR having a harder time as MT and performing to high level.

Paladin has insane tools while OTing for sure, however are still fantastic MT(and easy as pie to rock damage while staying safe).

Tldr: WAR is still best placed as OT before PLD because of current state of tanks. Its making the most of the raid not just the one person.

This is all just my opinion and experience mostly pugging savage 1-3 farm groups. So happy for anyone to disagree! I don\\'t really play DRK so people can educate me on that.

Drk taking happly hits sound wrong whit 4.0 kit. TBN can be used in ot position. And will more likely brake. Blood price don't have power in it anymore to make drk forced MT. We changed positions in v3s whit war because you can rotate hg awareness hg awareness on busters where drk need swap after 3rd buster

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Originally Posted by Paiyne

MT priority DRK, PLD, WAR

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Even if you want the pld to MT they should be OT at pull, the dps tradeoff of a pld using halone in the opener instead of goring > req > 7x holy spirit is too big. Cover is essentially free rampart with 12s cd, in o1s you can cover the other tank, pop rampart/bulwark for the double wyrm tails, and let the other tank pop multiple cds for the next double wyrm tails. I don't remember much about o2s but in o3s you can cover the other tank at pull and pop awareness, rampart, bulwark for the first critical hit. Intervention is really good for things that hit both tanks, like terminal antilight and twin bolt, since you can pair it with sentinel and mitigate the damage for both yourself and the other tank. In neo exdeath this allows the other tank to stack multiple cds for aero 3 and other tank busters, without relying on tank stance.

Ideally there's no such thing as MT and OT since doing multiple tank swaps would allow both tanks to use their cds efficiently, but if you have to choose one tank for a permanent MT throughout the fight, pld is the worst choice. War is a lot better than pld to MT in o3s due to holmgang being available every two critical hits. Whenever a pld can use sentinel, a war can use holmgang. For the other critical hits war can pop vengeance, raw intuition, and awareness, allowing them to take little damage even in dps stance 99% of the time. I mean, even if we're talking about turtle tank MT, warrior absolutely destroys pld once you take into account inner beast. During progression it's also a lot easier for war to switch from/to defiance since it doesn't cost gcd. I've swapped to defiance for tank busters only to go back to deliverance 10s later, that's not as bad as a pld having to lose 2 gcds to pop shield oath and then sword oath.

a lot of bad information is being spread.

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Originally Posted by finders

a lot of bad information is being spread.

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Elaborate? :o

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Originally Posted by Umbeliel

Elaborate? :o

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DRK being a good MT because of Blood Price. No idea why any tank would ever be in tank stance after the first aggro combo.

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Originally Posted by Accelerating

DRK being a good MT because of Blood Price. No idea why any tank would ever be in tank stance after the first aggro combo.

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Guess you never died on an auto attack just after a tank buster.... good for you.

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

Guess you never died on an auto attack just after a tank buster.... good for you.

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Pop a CD to prevent that.

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

Guess you never died on an auto attack just after a tank buster.... good for you.

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Shouldn't happen unless someone messed up.

What are you even talking about? This discussion is about job balance, which really only matters in savage content, content where sufficient player skill can be expected. Judging by your response and parses make me believe that you don't really meet those expectations.

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Originally Posted by Accelerating

DRK being a good MT because of Blood Price. No idea why any tank would ever be in tank stance after the first aggro combo.

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There's savage content with a static and then there's savage content with pugs. Personally, while progressing on a fight with 7 strangers (including the healers who may or may not be garbage) I think its poor etiquette to take this approach. When learning there are many times where turning your tank stance on can provide breathing room. Too often I see tanks come in to fights they are still learning with healers they don't know, wherein they never use tank stance, and leave it off even when they screw up and take a vuln stack, or the healers have to res somebody, etc.

Even the most aggressive tanks know when to turn their tank stance on for the benefit of the group.

As someone who has both raided an entire tier with a static and also lived the pug life, I think a better way to phrase this statement would be "No idea why any tank would ever be in tank stance on a fight they have cleared/are about to clear with healers they know/trust."

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

I think its poor etiquette to take this approach.

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To build up on that, it's also nice to remember that unless you're in a competitive group that thrives for fast kills, no one cares if you keep your tank stance at the cost of a slighty slower kill, especially if the fight goes much smoother thanks to that safety net, and especially since you can't run Savage several times a week.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

especially since you can't run Savage several times a week.

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You can do it as many times a week as you want, but I'm not sure how that plays into using tankstance anyway.

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Originally Posted by Felorr

You can do it as many times a week as you want

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Sure, with a heavy loot penalty for the whole team, and not a single reward for you after your initial win...

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Originally Posted by Felorr

but I'm not sure how that plays into using tankstance anyway.

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The only thing that tankstance make you lose is a bit of time, so again, apart from heavy competitive teams (So, basically, static) this "Avoid tankstance at all cost" mentality is meaningless.

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Originally Posted by Eliroth-Kaminari

Drk taking happly hits sound wrong whit 4.0 kit. TBN can be used in ot position. And will more likely brake. Blood price don't have power in it anymore to make drk forced MT. We changed positions in v3s whit war because you can rotate hg awareness hg awareness on busters where drk need swap after 3rd buster

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Huh lol I always MT V3s and never have to swap or pop living dead...When awareness is up use it and TBN only and when awareness isn't up use three CDs or two with reprisal you should never have to swap your ot is loosing deeps trying to swap when one doesn't need to occur