@Naoki Yoshida-> Make Samurai a Tank class!

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Originally Posted by Nolaie

people still want more slashing jobs? this game needs more Blunt classes currently monk is the only class who uses blunt but then you have dragoon with piercing and you have 2 ranged classes who use piercing which makes dragoon a very strong class since it buffs the dps of the other 2 ranged classes and still having strong dmg party buffs while monk brings pretty much nothing other than a mantra and int reduction when you can still have a DRK giving you that so what SE needs to do is either rework the slashing/blunt/piercing mechanics and make each class buffs its own damage only/working only on melees or add more blunt classes and adding more slashing jobs will just buff warriors more when they are already strong

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I will be surprised if the slashing/blunt/piercing mechanics make it through the skill pruning / combat revamp.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Technically, casters use blunt weapons too.

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Casters use magic spells and don't use their weapons to hit the boss and their magic spells doesn't get increased just because they have a blunt weapon if you want increased damage your better off getting a bard instead

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Originally Posted by Ariane

I will be surprised if the slashing/blunt/piercing mechanics make it through the skill pruning / combat revamp.

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yes it wouldn't make sense and I hope they just delete parry stat from the game I see healers complaining they don't get any accuracy from their gear well guess what its better than having Parry on your gear the most useless stat in the game id rather meld some accuracy than having to deal with my gear getting parry.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

No, tank.

You already have Dark Knight. It doesn't matter what color the punching bag is. You're there to take damages.

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Oh yeah, tanks are there to take damage as you say? That's good, because then we have such classic Final Fantasy Samurai abilities/skills such as:

Shirahadori (Blade Grasp): Catch and stop enemy attacks. Increases job's evasion against physical attacks. (Recurring games)
Sky (Retort): Perform a single non-elemental magical counterattack when attacked physically. Readies a devastating counterattack to unleash when next attacked. (FFVI)
Grace Under Pressure: Doubles damage dealt when HP is critical. (FFX-2)
No Fear: Bestows Protect and Shell on the user. (FFX-2)
Clean Slate: Restores the user's HP and removes all her status abnormalities. (FFX-2)
Hayate: Raises Evasion and bestows Haste on the user. (FFX-2)
Third Eye: When active, the next physical attack is evaded. (FFXI)
Seigan: reduces cooldown of Third Eye, gives Third eye a chance to evade multiple attacks, has a chance to counter-attack if hit. (FFXI)
Yaegasumi: For 45 seconds, the player can evade special attacks such as Weapon Skills (FFXI)
Bonecrusher (Meatbone Slash): Once the unit is in HP Critical condition, the user will counter any damage, dealt by either direct, ranged or magic attack, with damage equal to the unit's max HP, as long as the user survives after the attack and the opponent is within the user's weapon range. (FF Tactics)
Reflex: Improve your evasion by remaining calm and exercising sound judgement. (FF Explorers)
Quarte: Enter a state that lets you nullify a blow and counter. Guarantees weapon traits will inflict their ailments. (FF Explorers)
Curtain (障壁): Deliver a fierce slash that also creates a barrier capable of nullifying attacks. (FF Explorers)

Lots of history of defensive and tank-like abilities I'd say. And this isn't even touching games like Bravely Default where the samurai archetype Swordmaster is just chock-full of all manner of counter-attacks that require the user to be hit first.

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Originally Posted by Nolaie

Casters use magic spells and don't use their weapons to hit the boss and their magic spells doesn't get increased just because they have a blunt weapon if you want increased damage your better off getting a bard instead


yes it wouldn't make sense and I hope they just delete parry stat from the game I see healers complaining they don't get any accuracy from their gear well guess what its better than having Parry on your gear the most useless stat in the game id rather meld some accuracy than having to deal with my gear getting parry.

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You say Monk is the only class that uses the blunt mechanic and I'm saying that is not true, even if said casters never use their weapons as their main means of attack

I just want a sledgehammer. Keep the Katana guys (dps).

Poor RDM, so much swag yet everyone thinks he doesn't count because he isn't a samurai

http://pre14.deviantart.net/ff87/th/..._3-d8u5sjn.png

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

Oh yeah, tanks are there to take damage as you say? That's good, because then we have such classic Final Fantasy Samurai abilities skills such as:

Grace Under Pressure: Doubles damage dealt when HP is critical. (FFX-2)
No Fear: Bestows Protect and Shell on the user. (FFX-2)
Clean Slate: Restores the user's HP and removes all her status abnormalities. (FFX-2)
Hayate: Raises Evasion and bestows Haste on the user. (FFX-2)
Third Eye: When active, the next physical attack is evaded. (FFXI)
Seigan: reduces cooldown of Third Eye, gives Third eye a chance to evade multiple attacks, has a chance to counter-attack if hit. (FFXI)

Lots of history of defensive and tank-like abilities I'd say. And this isn't even touching games like Bravely Default where the samurai archetype Swordmaster is just chock-full of all manner of counter-attacks that require the user to be hit first.

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Only have an issue with these ones, because following this logic some healers in XIV would be considered tanks as well. And they're obviously not.

And that skill from XI was garbage. SAM in XI were used mostly as TP sticks more so than anything else.

While it might be true that there's history of SAM being tanky.. how much history is there of DRKs being tanks?

Will elaborate further later if need be, posting on this site from a tablet makes me feel as though I'm going to have an aneurysm.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

Only have an issue with these ones, because following this logic some healers in XIV would be considered tanks as well. And they're obviously not.

And that skill from XI was garbage. SAM in XI were used mostly as TP sticks more so than anything else.

While it might be true that there's history of SAM being tanky.. how much history is there of DRKs being tanks?

Will elaborate further later if need be, posting on this site from a tablet makes me feel as though I'm going to have an aneurysm.

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SAM's iteration in FFXI had the foundations of being a tank, just because it wasn't executed correctly and the system didn't work doesn't discredit those are absolutely abilities in-line with a tank role. Whether the skill was useful or not in the grand scheme of the entire job doesn't discredit the fact the job has a history of abilities that could be taken from inspiration-wise to be given to a new iteration of SAM in FFXIV.

I have no clue why you'd even bring up DRKs because that would only hurt any kind of argument against a SAM tank. DRK had LESS of a history with defensive abilities in past games than SAM has, and yet SE decided to make it a tank anyways, because it fit other criteria they were looking for (Tank armor, Thematically fit with planned scenario/setting, popular and requested job with lots of appeal/allure). The fact they took a job with less history of defensive abilities and made it a tank means that even if SAM didn't have ANY defensive/tanky abilities they could still use it as a tank for the same reasons they picked DRK. The fact that SAM does have a history of tanking ability (as well as stats/equipment) means it has an even stronger basis for a possible choice for another tank job.

We don't need any new tanks in Stormblood. We don't need any new healers in Stormblood. Whether they add any or not, and whether or not any job is Samurai, has already been long decided.

It would be a complete waste to make another Tank out of Samurai. But they either will or they won't.

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Originally Posted by GMERC

We don't need any new tanks in Stormblood. We don't need any new healers in Stormblood. Whether they add any or not, and whether or not any job is Samurai, has already been long decided.

It would be a complete waste to make another Tank out of Samurai. But they either will or they won't.

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You don't actually believe they will add 2 dps jobs at the same time right?

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Originally Posted by GMERC

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is like if i say we don't need another dps in stormblood, it would be a complete waste of time make another dps intead to improve the actual jobs and stats system.

in a mmo holy trinity based add more jobs that spots in end conten is a waste of time and resourses, add jobs is a way to add new gameplays and new experiences to do they role for all, say we dont need more tanks or healers but be open to recive more and more dps is a pretty selfish actitude.

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

You don't actually believe they will add 2 dps jobs at the same time right?

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I'd like to think they're smart enough to recognize that the best rate for additional jobs is probably 1:1:2 rather than 1:1:1.

I'm pretty sure they said they're not doing that, since they did it with DRK, and everyone was hoping that was going to be a DPS job.

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Originally Posted by GMERC

I'd like to think they're smart enough to recognize that the best rate for additional jobs is probably 1:1:2 rather than 1:1:1.

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If they're smart they'll continue to give tank and healers new jobs in the expansions considering those roles are more vital and have smaller numbers. By not doing that, and only giving more dps jobs when they already have twice the choices of available jobs than the other roles, you're forcing tanks and healers to continue being stuck with the same jobs for another 2 years. This is only going to give them reasons to switch to dps or leave, which is detrimental to the game's health. If SE is smart, they'll do this so they don't start hemorrhaging vital players who play the much needed roles.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

"those roles [tanks and healers] are more vital and have smaller numbers [sic]. By not doing that, and only giving more dps jobs when they already have twice the choices [sic] of available jobs than the other roles,

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You mean like how casters were "stuck with the same jobs for another 2 years" during Heavensward? And melee players? I think Tanks and Healers will survive. What next, are you going to say we "need" SAM to fill your imaginary (and long-term unhealthy) designated "off-tank" role that WAR is pigeonholed into?

If these "vital players" you seem to be talking about are so flaky that they'd just up and quit their role unless they get a shiny new job every 2 years, maybe they're better off gone, because they're barely interested in it as it is.

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Originally Posted by GMERC

I'd like to think they're smart enough to recognize that the best rate for additional jobs is probably 1:1:2 rather than 1:1:1.

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Currently we have one too many DPS if they want it at overall at 1:1:2, so 1:1:1 is actually ideal for Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

If they're smart they'll continue to give tank and healers new jobs in the expansions considering those roles are more vital and have smaller numbers. By not doing that, and only giving more dps jobs when they already have twice the choices of available jobs than the other roles, you're forcing tanks and healers to continue being stuck with the same jobs for another 2 years. This is only going to give them reasons to switch to dps or leave, which is detrimental to the game's health. If SE is smart, they'll do this so they don't start hemorrhaging vital players who play the much needed roles.

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Hit the nail on that one!

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Originally Posted by GMERC

You mean like how casters were "stuck with the same jobs for another 2 years" during Heavensward? And melee players? I think Tanks and Healers will survive. What next, are you going to say we "need" SAM to fill your imaginary (and long-term unhealthy) designated "off-tank" role that WAR is pigeonholed into?

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Nah see, you don't get to break it down into sub-roles like that. The Duty finder etc. deals fully with DPS as a single role (barring Wolve's Den's strict party makeup.) You don't have content that's "Must have caster" in the party to complete, or "Must have Melee dps" to complete. You certainly have content that "Must have a healer" or "Must have a tank". The game revolves around that kind of content.

And arguably, BRD and MCH are both casters now, so yeah, casters got 2 new jobs in Heavenswards by that standard, or are you going to try and make excuses for why those wouldn't count? It's funny you'd bring up the whole "OT" spiel acting like that's a ridiculous notion when you just did that trying to break down the DPS role into sub-categories. Even then, the game loses little if it hemorrhages some dps, that is far less damaging to the health of the game than a small tank population getting even smaller.

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If these "vital players" you seem to be talking about are so flaky that they'd just up and quit their role unless they get a shiny new job every 2 years, maybe they're better off gone, because they're barely interested in it as it is.

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Man, playing an important role in a video game for 2 years straight is barely an inkling of interest! Not to mention if a new tank isn't added each expansion it means potential new tank jobs would be 4 years apart! Screw those people that make the queues pop amiright?

Please do go on about how little you care about the health of the game.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

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I bring DRK up because at no time in the past has it been known for being a tank. Yet you present SAM with a slew of abilities; which most of said abilities don't even show up within a singular title, as though it can't be anything but tank. Following the same logic then DRK should not be a tank, but here we are. My overall point is that past entries have no bearing for what is or could be in XIV.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

I bring DRK up because at no time in the past has it been known for being a tank. Yet you present SAM with a slew of abilities; which most of said abilities don't even show up within a singular title, as though it can't be anything but. Following the same logic then DRK should not be a DPS, but here we are. My overall point is that past entries have no bearing for what is or could be in XIV.

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I mean, except they do? This is a Final Fantasy game, and all of it's jobs have pulled from old Final Fantasy games. That isn't to say they can't add new unique jobs to the fray, but while they still have iconic and HIGHLY requested staple Final Fantasy jobs yet to implemented it's more strange to think they wouldn't continue to pick from those iconic jobs.

Then things need to be considered from a developmental standpoint. Tanks in this game wear Fending armor, so either future tanks will share this armor, or additional work needs to be done to make a future tank job wear a different class of armor. Not only is that more dev work needing time+money, but it also brings in new complications when it comes to itemization within the game. So going under the pretense they'll keep things on the easier side, because choosing the path of least resistance is often the norm for businesses, then future tanks will continue to share Fending gear.

Once we've established that, then we can look at what past Final Fantasy jobs wear such armor. That's a pretty small list. From that list, what jobs have more requests/popularity, you want to pick a job that has widespread appeal/allure to entice not only existing players to try them out, but new players to buy the game/expansion the job comes out in. So of the small list of heavy armor wearing Final Fantasy jobs, the obvious most popular one is Samurai. It also uses a slashing weapon, which while repetitive in the sense that the other 3 tanks have slashing weapon as well, from a design standpoint it keeps things simple. All tanks use slashing, continuing this trend eliminates the potential imbalance that could come with a tank that deals a different damage type. (This assumes the battle system reworks in 4.0 won't be removing/changing the way damage types works).

All I'm saying is that SAM as a tank logically fits what FFXIV's archetype is for a tank. It's popular/requested, it fits the armor, it fits the damage type, it is also a job with a romanticized fantasy that involves honor and protecting others, the same a knights. It doesn't need to have a history of defensive abilities to be a viable choice for a tank role because it meets so many of the other criteria, the fact it does have a history of at least some defensive abilities certainly doesn't hurt though either.

And I've never said SAM couldn't be anything but a tank, only that it should be a tank. Every job is a DPS. DPS is the default, it doesn't need arguments why it should be a DPS from a design/developmental standpoint because literally everything can be made into a DPS. Tank jobs, not so much, examples of tank-potential jobs in Final Fantasy games that fit FFXIV's definition of a tank are few and far between, and taking one of the best and most viable options for another tank and using it as another DPS removes it from the pool of very few options.

No thanks, Samurai dps, red mage tank.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

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in every ff game DRK was a first line soldier wearing heavy armor and sacrifice hp to increse the power of the next attack, something DRK do here but using MP instead, many ppl expect DRK be a dps for that, but the fact DRK never was a top dps so is pretty logic they choose the job for a tank spot and make they dont kill herself in the process more when cecil the iconic DRK pass they drk part of the story protecting other party members how dealt much more damage that hem, except the bard, even if DRK was a dps they still using mp instead of hp.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

No thanks, Samurai dps, red mage tank.

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So what gear is Red Mage gonna wear? Because part of the design decisions by SE is that tanks share gear which offers the benefit of being able to switch between any of the 3 tanks whenever needed, encouraging people to play those jobs for ease of gearing alone (3 for the price of 1 etc.) Is it going to wear it's own unique tier of armor? Not only would that pollute the loot pools even more than they already are, but SE already re-uses a ton of assets across the role armor, making a new tier of armor just for 1 job is a lot of extra work. If those aren't the options, then what, it's going to share gear with a DPS job? You think it's a good idea for tanks and dps to compete for gear? And if that's not going to happen, then what, RDM is going to wear the heaviest armor in the game which would be a pretty big visual step away from how it's usually always depicted?

Things that need to be considered.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

So what gear is Red Mage gonna wear? Because part of the design decisions by SE is that tanks share gear which offers the benefit of being able to switch between any of the 3 tanks whenever needed, encouraging people to play those jobs for ease of gearing alone (3 for the price of 1 etc.) Is it going to wear it's own unique tier of armor? Not only would that pollute the loot pools even more than they already are, but SE already re-uses a ton of assets across the role armor, making a new tier of armor just for 1 job is a lot of extra work. If those aren't the options, then what, it's going to share gear with a DPS job? You think it's a good idea for tanks and dps to compete for gear? And if that's not going to happen, then what, RDM is going to wear the heaviest armor in the game which would be a pretty big visual step away from how it's usually always depicted?

Things that need to be considered.

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but muh anime 1000 folded dps sword

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

So what gear is Red Mage gonna wear? Because part of the design decisions by SE is that tanks share gear which offers the benefit of being able to switch between any of the 3 tanks whenever needed, encouraging people to play those jobs for ease of gearing alone (3 for the price of 1 etc.) Is it going to wear it's own unique tier of armor? Not only would that pollute the loot pools even more than they already are, but SE already re-uses a ton of assets across the role armor, making a new tier of armor just for 1 job is a lot of extra work. If those aren't the options, then what, it's going to share gear with a DPS job? You think it's a good idea for tanks and dps to compete for gear? And if that's not going to happen, then what, RDM is going to wear the heaviest armor in the game which would be a pretty big visual step away from how it's usually always depicted?

Things that need to be considered.

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Well, i believe Red Mage will be a healer but i will say this. If Red Mage were to be made into a tank, it doesn't necessarily need it's own gear. It completely depends on how the design for the job is done. They can make all the Red Mage spells scale off of Vit or Det or Strength or Parry etc instead of intelligence/mind. Wouldn't make much sense but it can be done.

For armor designs everyone is pretty much a visual step away from how they are depicted because the artifact armor aren't what everyone wears and even then, with glamours there are dark knights wearing swim trunks or bikinis. Most importantly there is a set of tank gear that looks like something a Red Mage would wear which is Sharlayan Custodian's armor set.

SAM dps and RDM tank with heavy armor :)

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

Well, i believe Red Mage will be a healer but i will say this. If Red Mage were to be made into a tank, it doesn't necessarily need it's own gear. It completely depends on how the design for the job is done. They can make all the Red Mage spells scale off of Vit or Det or Strength or Parry etc instead of intelligence/mind. Wouldn't make much sense but it can be done.

For armor designs everyone is pretty much a visual step away from how they are depicted because the artifact armor aren't what everyone wears and even then, with glamours there are dark knights wearing swim trunks or bikinis. Most importantly there is a set of tank gear that looks like something a Red Mage would wear which is Sharlayan Custodian's armor set.

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"Glamour" is not a valid excuse. And a single armor set, from a dungeon where every job has the same appearance of the armor just palette swapped is a very bad example, especially when the same could be said about SAM tank and the Yasha/Asuran Fending armor (Which wasn't a universally used appearance like the Sharlayan stuff from the Library.)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3McYwaVY5T...0/vards_02.png

Red Mage seems an obvious choice for a DPS that would use DEX gear. There are far more sets from that category of armor that would fit them far better, as well as a dex making more sense as a stat for them than VIT+STR.

http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...4c968bfc13.jpg
http://noraneco.tea-nifty.com/photos...aiming_1_2.jpg
http://dengekionline.com/elem/000/00..._1280x1280.jpg
http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/75...jpg?1477477497

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

"Glamour" is not a valid excuse. And a single armor set, from a dungeon where every job has the same appearance of the armor just palette swapped is a very bad example, especially when the same could be said about SAM tank and the Yasha/Asuran Fending armor (Which wasn't a universally used appearance like the Sharlayan stuff from the Library.)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3McYwaVY5T...0/vards_02.png

Red Mage seems an obvious choice for a DPS that would use DEX gear. There are far more sets from that category of armor that would fit them far better, as well as a dex making more sense as a stat for them than VIT+STR.

http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...4c968bfc13.jpg
http://noraneco.tea-nifty.com/photos...aiming_1_2.jpg
http://dengekionline.com/elem/000000..._1280x1280.jpg
http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.co/f/75b...jpg?1477477497

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Saying that glamour is not a valid excuse is DEFINITELY not a valid excuse. Especially since you do not even explain yourself regarding that. So that argument alone has been made automatically invalid. The reason for the 170 tank gear looking the way it is, is because in development for heavensward, their decision for the next tank came down to Dark Knight or Samurai. It wouldn't surprise me that they had already made gear ahead of time for the samurai.

And while Bard/Machinist has some sets that are similar to Red Mage it doesn't neccesarily make as much sense for a caster to be a dex class. Like i said, it makes more sense for it to be a healer because it could use white magic to heal and then go into cleric stance to use black magic. It just makes more sense.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

Saying that glamour is not a valid excuse is DEFINITELY not a valid excuse. Especially since you do not even explain yourself regarding that. So that argument alone has been made automatically invalid.

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It's not valid because the glamour system is still restricted by role/job. If you're a tank you can't glamour bard gear onto your stuff. You can't be a mage and glamour a full set of plate armor onto yourself. So the job's basic armor identity still plays an important role. Just because there's a number of universally glamour-able items such as swimsuits etc. does not invalidate that.

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The reason for the 170 tank gear looking the way it is, is because in development for heavensward, their decision for the next tank came down to Dark Knight or Samurai. It wouldn't surprise me that they had already made gear ahead of time for the samurai.

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And that's simply speculation. We don't know how far along they went with samurai in development and in terms of creating art assets.

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And while Bard/Machinist has some sets that are similar to Red Mage it doesn't neccesarily make as much sense for a caster to be a dex class. Like i said, it makes more sense for it to be a healer because it could use white magic to heal and then go into cleric stance to use black magic. It just makes more sense.

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It makes plenty of sense, Red mages cast multiple types of magics from different schools on top of weaving in swordplay. That takes a dexterous mind as well as body to perform. Dexterous doesn't apply to just physical feats after all, someone with a dexterous mind is considered clever, and mentally adroit. It's much like Ninja's, who use dex as their primary stat, yet the class has many forms of magical abilities it casts through dexterous hand movements.

White Magic also does not equal only healing magic. There are numerous White Magic spells that are enfeebling or protective without being purely healing. Poisona, Blindna, Invis, Silence, Hold, Confuse, Blink, Haste, Dispel. Even if you wanted to give a DPS role some kind of healing it can still be done on RDM, something like an instant cast medica on a longer cooldown would still align with support-like moves other DPS jobs have like Mantra etc.

If Red Mage was a healer it would spend most of it's time healing, and a little time casting black magic, and virtually zero time using the sword element that it's often tied to. DPS would allow it to use all of them (as well as tank, but that brings itemization issues).

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

It's not valid because the glamour system is still restricted by role/job. If you're a tank you can't glamour bard gear onto your stuff. You can't be a mage and glamour a full set of plate armor onto yourself. So the job's basic armor identity still plays an important role. Just because there's a number of universally glamour-able items such as swimsuits etc. does not invalidate that.


And that's simply speculation. We don't know how far along they went with samurai in development and in terms of creating art assets.



It makes plenty of sense, Red mages cast multiple types of magics from different schools on top of weaving in swordplay. That takes a dexterous mind as well as body to perform. Dexterous doesn't apply to just physical feats after all, someone with a dexterous mind is considered clever, and mentally adroit. It's much like Ninja's, who use dex as their primary stat, yet the class has many forms of magical abilities it casts through dexterous hand movements.

White Magic also does not equal only healing magic. There are numerous White Magic spells that are enfeebling or protective without being purely healing. Poisona, Blindna, Invis, Silence, Hold, Confuse, Blink, Haste, Dispel. Even if you wanted to give a DPS role some kind of healing it can still be done on RDM, something like an instant cast medica on a longer cooldown would still align with support-like moves other DPS jobs have like Mantra etc.

If Red Mage was a healer it would spend most of it's time healing, and a little time casting black magic, and virtually zero time using the sword element that it's often tied to. DPS would allow it to use all of them (as well as tank, but that brings itemization issues).

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Thanks for explaining with glamour but i still disagree. Even if you're a tank, you can glamour gear that can be worn by all that doesn't look like tank gear. In fact, you can be naked by glamouring the emperor gear. However, i can agree to disagree with you here.

For the 170 gear, that is speculation but there is also fact in that Samurai was close to becoming a tank in heavensward during development. But its true, theres no hard evidence that 170 was made because of Samurai.

Now, the way you describe Red Mage as a dps is a great argument. Best i've heard but when you talk about dextrous body and mind it sounds more like background lore or concepts that doesn't actually affect gameplay directly but i guess thats where both our arguments collide because i am thinking strictly from a gameplay perspective.

The key thing that i think about red mage is that they are going to have healing magic such as the iconic cure 1 and cure 2 along with lightning, fire 1, fire 2 and when thinking about it in a gameplay perspective... DPS simply cannot deliver heals because then they are losing out on dps in raids/hard-content. It would also sound like the job would be too powerful if the heals were so strong/effective that they can maintain high dps while healing. That would mean that MANY people would take groups of multiple red mages. To top it off it is called a mage.

If the Red Mage were not given any healing skills and just support magics like poison, blind, silence, haste, confuse, blink then what you got there is a Green Mage which is strictly a support magic caster. The way i see Red Mage is that it has to use White Mage skills and Black Mage skils. Also, whats to say they are actually going to use their sword/rapier? They can simply use it like a white/black mage uses their rod and just attack/heal from a range.

All that said, I like your argument. It is a good one. I however believe that it will still be a healer.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

The key thing that i think about red mage is that they are going to have healing magic such as the iconic cure 1 and cure 2 along with lightning, fire 1, fire 2 and when thinking about it in a gameplay perspective... DPS simply cannot deliver heals because then they are losing out on dps in raids/hard-content. It would also sound like the job would be too powerful if the heals were so strong/effective that they can maintain high dps while healing. That would mean that MANY people would take groups of multiple red mages. To top it off it is called a mage.

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I mean, we don't know for sure that they must have cure 1, 2, etc. and Fire 1, fire 2 etc. To fit the archetype they just need to have at least some spells/abilities that are in that vein of magic. They can cast a black magic fire spell but it can be called something different and doesn't have to be a carbon copy cast time Fire 1 from Black Mage. Similar to Ninja again, Katon is clearly a fire-based spell akin to Fire 2, but it's called Katon and has essentially a 30 second cooldown. They can have a white magic based healing spell that is functionally different than simply standing there casting spells, especially when you factor in Red Mage's iconic ability in Dual Cast. These things open up the possibility of giving a DPS Red Mage some support/healing utility if they chose to design it that way.

There are ways for DPS to provide heals without losing dps, in the form of instant cast off GCD abilities, which again makes sense for RDM to have given dualcast. Monk's (and other DPS) don't miss out on DPS when they cast Mantra, which a monk's increases healing done to everyone by 20%. So from a point of view that additional healing can be seen as provided by the monk. There's nothing stopping a DPS RDM from having an AoE clutch heal on a long cooldown they can throw out when the party needs it. The job wouldn't be OP because they shouldn't be a super high DPS job in the first place, they bring utility and support to the party, and as a result their damage is not top of the line, like BRD,MCH, NIN. This fits the fact they are supposed to be jack of all trades, master of none.

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If the Red Mage were not given any healing skills and just support magics like poison, blind, silence, haste, confuse, blink then what you got there is a Green Mage which is strictly a support magic caster. The way i see Red Mage is that it has to use White Mage skills and Black Mage skils. Also, whats to say they are actually going to use their sword/rapier? They can simply use it like a white/black mage uses their rod and just attack/heal from a range.

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We fundamentally disagree then on what a Red Mage should entail, you seem to want them to cast specific white mage skills and black mage skills, whereas I see them being able to take a different approach in as long as they incorporate elements of white magic and black magic along with swordplay. To me it doesn't have to be specifically Cure 1's, and Fire 2's thrown about, but some kind of white magic and black magic that would fit in the world's lore. I think having them be backline casters with their swords just for show would be a pretty big waste of an opportunity to do something flashy with them.

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All that said, I like your argument. It is a good one. I however believe that it will still be a healer.

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We shall find out in less than a week's time then!

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

I'd ask for it to not be a tank. The 2-handed sword wielding class is already a tank, there really doesn't need to be a second one. There's not even a sword wielding DPS class yet.

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Why do you assume if samurai is added that it will use a two handed weapon?

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

I mean, we don't know for sure that they must have cure 1, 2, etc. and Fire 1, fire 2 etc. To fit the archetype they just need to have at least some spells/abilities that are in that vein of magic. They can cast a black magic fire spell but it can be called something different and doesn't have to be a carbon copy cast time Fire 1 from Black Mage. Similar to Ninja again, Katon is clearly a fire-based spell akin to Fire 2, but it's called Katon and has essentially a 30 second cooldown. They can have a white magic based healing spell that is functionally different than simply standing there casting spells, especially when you factor in Red Mage's iconic ability in Dual Cast. These things open up the possibility of giving a DPS Red Mage some support/healing utility if they chose to design it that way.

There are ways for DPS to provide heals without losing dps, in the form of instant cast off GCD abilities, which again makes sense for RDM to have given dualcast. Monk's (and other DPS) don't miss out on DPS when they cast Mantra, which a monk's increases healing done to everyone by 20%. So from a point of view that additional healing can be seen as provided by the monk. There's nothing stopping a DPS RDM from having an AoE clutch heal on a long cooldown they can throw out when the party needs it. The job wouldn't be OP because they shouldn't be a super high DPS job in the first place, they bring utility and support to the party, and as a result their damage is not top of the line, like BRD,MCH, NIN. This fits the fact they are supposed to be jack of all trades, master of none.



We fundamentally disagree then on what a Red Mage should entail, you seem to want them to cast specific white mage skills and black mage skills, whereas I see them being able to take a different approach in as long as they incorporate elements of white magic and black magic along with swordplay. To me it doesn't have to be specifically Cure 1's, and Fire 2's thrown about, but some kind of white magic and black magic that would fit in the world's lore. I think having them be backline casters with their swords just for show would be a pretty big waste of an opportunity to do something flashy with them.


We shall find out in less than a week's time then!

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You bring up a good point with dual cast. If they do put that into their kit, it can make for some unique gameplay.I completely forgot about that skill!!
After this post you made, u fully convinced me that they can viably be a dps. There are some concerns on whether they can be do some viable healing. However, i still believe regardless that they will be a caster dps. I still lean to the belief that they will be healer but your argument pretty much opens up them becoming a dps for me.

Well done, Shippuu.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

. They can make all the Red Mage spells scale off of Vit or Det or Strength or Parry etc instead of intelligence/mind. Wouldn't make much sense but it can be done.

Most importantly there is a set of tank gear that looks like something a Red Mage would wear which is Sharlayan Custodian's armor set.

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All DRK spells scale off of VIT/STR, and so does PLD's spells, Clemency and Flash. That excuse doesn't even begin to hold water. Also yes, Sharlayan Custodian is Red Mage gear.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

All DRK spells scale off of VIT/STR, and so does PLD's spells, Clemency and Flash. That excuse doesn't even begin to hold water. Also yes, Sharlayan Custodian is Red Mage gear.

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Thanks for agreeing with me? Don't see why ur saying its an excuse when you agree with me...

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

Why do you assume if samurai is added that it will use a two handed weapon?

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Katana and Wakizashi bring it on! I honestly think Zenos is a little hint to the weapon of SAM minus the Revolver scabbard, although that would be sick :o

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

We shall find out in less than a week's time then!

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Get hyped! Its so close now, hopefully SAM will get teased at JP fanfest as well, seems fitting!

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

Thanks for agreeing with me? Don't see why ur saying its an excuse when you agree with me...

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I was pointing out the comment that tank spells scaling off of Vit/str not making sense is a bit silly, since tank spells already exist that do just that. XD

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I was pointing out the comment that tank spells scaling off of Vit/str not making sense is a bit silly, since tank spells already exist that do just that. XD

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Oh, I see. Yea, I was aware of that. It just doesn't make sense to me since magic is typically obtained from mind/int in final fantasy games. Or Faith if you count some other games like tactics. lol

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

1) I'm not seeing three silhouettes there. Maybe it could be just a placeholder, or maybe devs are placing quality over quantity, who knows....

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I watched the stream, and if I remember correctly, Yoshi said something about "multiple jobs". Who's to say we won't get one of each battle role, as well as something for those who enjoy DoL/DoH? By what I've heard, the budget is far bigger for SB than they had for HW, and they may have gotten more members to their team. I could be wrong, but I'm holding hope that everyone will be able to get a new shiny to play with.

If this would be Samurai, it just should be a Tank class!
https://imgur.com/D4kJRvU