The broken FFXIV Holy trinity

Just decrease the ilvl/stat jumps so instead of +20ilvl every major patch it's +2ilvl

Problem with overgearing it and speed runs leads to folks thinking that's the norm and the instant it gets harder again, folks bitch the can't finish the dungeon in 10 minutes again.

When I started here I was so happy to see dungeons were aoe festivals like in wow but then I hit level cap...

God forbid you can't speed run(not enough gear) folks ragequit.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Problem with overgearing it and speed runs leads to folks thinking that's the norm and the instant it gets harder again, folks bitch the can't finish the dungeon in 10 minutes again.

When I started here I was so happy to see dungeons were aoe festivals like in wow but then I hit level cap...

God forbid you can't speed run(not enough gear) folks ragequit.

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One thing that perpetuates this is that SE constantly releases dungeons/trials that the majority of the population already over-gears. Ex. Allowing everyone to gear up with i120 gear and then releasing content that builds up to i120 is a redundant system. It is one thing to lay down groundwork and build up. But SE isn't building from the ground up, they are building from the top down.

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Originally Posted by BreathlessTao

The holy trinity is broken, yes, but the symptoms OP described are not the ones I see as the signs of that. Where I see the holy trinity being broken is healers being expected to DPS, tanks being expected to DPS, DPS being expected to tank and raise....... It's like we're just leaving the "roles" behind altogether.

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How is this broken? Tanks DPS to generate more enmity. In fact, they have specific DPS abilities that have an added effect of increasing enmity. Healers who have the free time to DPS should, as most dungeons do not require the healer to constantly be on their toes spamming cure/buff spells, and the healer dps'ing is also a sign of a good player and prevents the healer from standing around with their thumb up their butt not doing anything while they wait for the mobs/boss to finally do enough damage to the tank or any dps to actually warrant them using a cure/buff spell. A good DPS will grab hate and hold hate for as long as possible in the event that the tank is ko'd to prevent mobs from gang raping the healer(s) which would cause a wipe and waste of people's time. Also, if a DPS does have Raise, why should they not use Raise in the event that it is necessary due to the healer being busy keeping the rest of the party alive? This is especially a nonissue with Smn as all it takes is a simple use of Swiftcast + Raise which takes all of roughly 5 seconds or less. I don't see how this is an issue, nor do I see how any of these examples in any way indicate that the "holy trinity" is broken whatsoever. The examples you've provided are all actual responsibilities of the players playing those roles. While I do understand that it can be acceptable for a healer to not DPS at all, if they don't feel comfortable doing so, it seems that the vast majority of people do agree that a healer dps'ing during healing/buffing downtime is a sign of a good player and actually something that the healer should be doing to play their job 100% efficiently.

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

in FFXI and in a lot of other game even with the best gear in the game you can't just take on 15 mobs and aoe them down.

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LOL! yeah... right.

Of course you could in FFXI with the right job.

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

(I know cos i played FFXI and understand the FF holy trinity very well)

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This made me laugh, most of the DPS jobs could succesfully tank in FFXI. Ive solo tanked upto and including Delve as MNK and DNC. Stack up on PDT and MDT gear, sub WAR or DNC for voke and you could tank as pretty much any job. Holy Trinity? For a large part of the life of FFXI SMN was used as a main healer because of the massive mana pool compared to other jobs. NIN was meant as a DPS (or DD using FFXI nomelature) but players were able to use shadows as a form of damage mitigation to tank with.

MNK made a stand up tank due to high HP pool and able to maintain enmity from the pure damage output.

Hell, taking a tank was sub optimal for a lot of content because it meant less DPS.

Dear SE,

People enjoy playing the game one way, please force them to play the way I like playing. I am the authority on how people should play.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Dear SE,

People enjoy playing the game one way, please force them to play the way I like playing. I am the authority on how people should play.

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Why did it make me think of south park that reply? XD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx4jn77VKlQ

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

I love this thread originator's idea the XI had clearly defined roles... thinking noone else here ever played XI. In XI the go-to tank was not a tank. XI's Ninja was considered by players to be one of the best tanks... even though it didn't have a single tanking skill in it's arsenal. In a party that had Ninja tanking you NEEDED an off-tank, even if a good... no, BRILLIANT Ninja could keep their mitigation spells up indefinitely. This is because Ninja were literally Thieves with spells. So squishy that if a mob sneezed too hard in a Ninja's general direction they died. Utsusemi was a mitigation spell, but it was never meant as a tanking spell. It was an MP-free Blink, and NOONE wanted a Blink tank for the obvious reason, "When it drops, you die." That and alot of the harder monsters had attacks capable of ignoring shadows.

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NIN was quite capable of taking a hit at end game, but by then it didnt matter PLD with NIN sub was the goto tank for most end game content there were a few exceptions but not many. Did enjoy NIN/DRK that was fun. Alas people do however need to remove the rose tinted specs while alot of us have fond memories of XI, its systems just aren't going to work in a modern mmo.

I remember when coils of bahamut were considered extremely hard and where people WERE hard pressed to do well.

I think having varying levels of difficulty is a great game design, something for everyone.

I used to be against the idea of grabbing all the trash mobs, but now I just don't care. Trash is trash. Boss fights, though... those need to be a little more complex than just "tank and spank and maybe deal with a mechanic. Otherwise ignore mechanic" (remember when doors in Diabolos were required to be opened? Me neither).

I think SE should give the option to sync or not:

- If you sync (at the ilvl that the dungeon was designed for), you get the most good reward (100% tokens?)

- Half sync (like now, like ilvl 110 for i70 content), you will get less reward (40%?)

- If you dont sync, you get there with your full ilvl but you dont get any reward (so that you can still help friends to complete dungeons)

In this way i think we should all be happy?

I know some people like to use the "I don't care about minions" excuse, but I still think you can learn much about people based on the minions in their collection. When a guy is complaining about dungeons being too easy, but he doesn't have ANY minion encountered in a dungeon, including the green slime from Wanderer's Palace (the quintessential "Pull'em ALL and NUKEM DOWN" rodeo show)... it makes me question his expertise on the matter a little.

I could ramble on about WHY dungeons are the way they are, what with new players and tuning to accessible ilevels, but I think in the end, some people just don't fully enjoy certain content. I don't have pvp rewards, for example, because I don't much care for pvp.

For OP, go ahead and run dungeons in 3.0 with the "minimum ilevel sync" option enabled. I will be running with that option off, so we will never see each other. I wish you luck.

biggest problem i see with making these dungeons harder is that noobs will just quit it would be good if the level sync/il sync actually worked so it was like you first entered that dungeon

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Originally Posted by reillyblair

biggest problem i see with making these dungeons harder is that noobs will just quit it would be good if the level sync/il sync actually worked so it was like you first entered that dungeon

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This is why the game is stuck in Baby Land for years.
People hate to do anything that's not a DPS race to the finish.
See:
Steps of Fate.
Pharos Sirius.
Ampador's Keep.
Then people have the IQ of an uncooked potato so it's like this.

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Originally Posted by Seferex

I think SE should give the option to sync or not:

- If you sync (at the ilvl that the dungeon was designed for), you get the most good reward (100% tokens?)

- Half sync (like now, like ilvl 110 for i70 content), you will get less reward (40%?)

- If you dont sync, you get there with your full ilvl but you dont get any reward (so that you can still help friends to complete dungeons)

In this way i think we should all be happy?

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Not that this isn't a good idea, but it'd put us right back to life before Roulette. Yes, Roulette wasn't around until one of the median patches of 2.0 as a form of incentive to make high levels run older dungeons so that newer players could actually get them done. You take away the rewards and we're right back to high levels ignoring older content again because of lack of incentive. With this community comradery isn't the incentive it should be.

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Originally Posted by Seferex

I think SE should give the option to sync or not:

- If you sync (at the ilvl that the dungeon was designed for), you get the most good reward (100% tokens?)

- Half sync (like now, like ilvl 110 for i70 content), you will get less reward (40%?)

- If you dont sync, you get there with your full ilvl but you dont get any reward (so that you can still help friends to complete dungeons)

In this way i think we should all be happy?

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Better proposal:

- When you open the DF (without a party), you get paired only with players only of the same ilevel +/- 10 of you unless you opt for ilevelsync. In which case the ilevelsync will be set to "at release" and you get full tomes. If you don't opt for level sync, there are no tome rewards, only farmables (eg for relic weapons/glamour.) This would then allow players to farm the gear they want from the dungeons instead of just farming MSQ for tomes and going straight to the 110 gear.
- When you form a party first (including just the Chocobo) you can "solo" play a dungeon to farm an item/glamor gear, but you get no tomes.
- The last option is "time trial" where you get a different reward depending on how fast the dungeon is completed and how many people remain using the roles they queued as. This would disable Raise/Resurrect from being used, all consumable buffs, and if the party wipes, the Duty fails.


At the current point in the game's life, there is absolutely no reason to play any of the "Hard" dungeons for gear. They're only played for Relic gear quest farming.

Everyone currently gets their non-tomes gear from WoD (i120) or FCoB(i135.)

Broken? In FFXIV? Nah, it was broken in FFXI, where people turned Ninjas into tanks and Samurai into DPS. Here, the roles are clearly defined. That said, I've had to Tank things as a DPS from time to time to give the healer(s) some breathing space if the Tank(s) goes down... or isn't paying attention to the adds trying to eat the healers face.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Not that this isn't a good idea, but it'd put us right back to life before Roulette. Yes, Roulette wasn't around until one of the median patches of 2.0 as a form of incentive to make high levels run older dungeons so that newer players could actually get them done. You take away the rewards and we're right back to high levels ignoring older content again because of lack of incentive. With this community comradery isn't the incentive it should be.

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Well, we could just leave the stuff like they are now, but give the option to sync to the base ilvl and so you will get 200% reward from the roulette?

Actually a way to make dungeons relevant is to tie them to your alt jobs somehow.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

This is why the game is stuck in Baby Land for years.
People hate to do anything that's not a DPS race to the finish.
See:
Steps of Fate.
Pharos Sirius.
Ampador's Keep.
Then people have the IQ of an uncooked potato so it's like this.

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You forgot to include Thornmarch Hard. That was nerfed similarly to Steps of Faith as well.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

You forgot to include Thornmarch Hard. That was nerfed similarly to Steps of Faith as well.

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Which was unfortunate given it was originally a nerf of the original 1.0 trial. Seriously, in 1.0 you had to kill all the moogles and still have a Bard use their '2hr' to survive the opening Memento Mog.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

If played at launch, we know that the trinity was doing fine in dungeons. The dungeon AK at 2.0 launch, before the nerf, was way hard and even harder with only darklight at best. There was no pulling the entire room. Long after we overgeared it, they decided to nerf it *then* because people thought it still was too hard.

The problem isn't it's "broken," its the fact that people complained and told SE to break it. It's our fault. It's what we wanted.

We should be careful what we wish for, we might get it. Now all lvl50 dungeons are cakewalks. The healer can die at like 90% on a boss fight and you can make it with maybe a blm casting a cure occasionally and still win. That's the game we are in now.

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This 100 times Cherie you da best!

Just done my 5th zeta, actually the balance is good, enjoying speed runs, else I can't farm so much like this. From my experience in duty finders, as a tank, if I see a ninja can do Kassatu->Doton, I will speed run not for myself, but for you. That's how a tank to show respect to good dps. As a healer, particularly whm, I can out dps most players on mobs, and keep everyone healthy, that's just normal, but sometimes there are peoples will say"wow, you are impressive, healer." And that's what makes me feel good. ) Through experience, it's getting easy to differentiate what job combinations and players' ilv can do what type of runs, but don't expect to meet old bird every time, they are rare in duty finder.:D

All I read here was "QQ nerf dps because I'm such a bad tank and can't hold AoE threat." And also "why is everyone so strong at end content". I'm sorry you're not as skilled as us and have to do low level dungeons n complain by gearing in poetics. But its end of the patch. Everyone is decked out and waiting for something don't go crying because you where out performed by a dragoon when you where a tank.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

This is why the game is stuck in Baby Land for years.
People hate to do anything that's not a DPS race to the finish.
See:
Steps of Fate.
Pharos Sirius.
Ampador's Keep.
Then people have the IQ of an uncooked potato so it's like this.

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Don't tear a rotator cuff patting yourself on the back. Do you really think this game would have survived long enough to release an expansion if they catered only to people who say they want challenging content--whatever that even means anymore--but are quiet as church mice whenever someone new asks for help? There's a reason those dungeons and that particular STORY fight had to be scaled back: So-called "pros" wouldn't do them once they got their clear.

Yes, the game would be doing fine if they never nerfed that content. All they needed to do for Pharos Sirius was have it drop i70 gear and bam, reward for the challenge met (and even then, you just needed to have a good healer. First boss did require DPS to slow down and switch to adds). Amdapor Keep could keep its original loot pool of i60 stuff, which would mean Demon Wall could keep its bugs (the ONLY challenging part of the dungeon. Not the wall, but the bugs). Steps, I've finally gotten over the nerf (the issue was the players, though), but Thornmarch... that still rubs me the wrong way. Yeah, it was a part of the MSQ, but it also dropped i70 weapons. It was between Garuda and Titan HM when it came to challenge, so it fit.

SE need to cater to people who know how to use their brain. Not to those who expect others to carry them.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Don't tear a rotator cuff patting yourself on the back. Do you really think this game would have survived long enough to release an expansion if they catered only to people who say they want challenging content--whatever that even means anymore--but are quiet as church mice whenever someone new asks for help? There's a reason those dungeons and that particular STORY fight had to be scaled back: So-called "pros" wouldn't do them once they got their clear.

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Pretty much this people would rather eat the 30min debuff then try to help people clear it.

Healing is a bit over the top at of this moment. Not sure how the expansion gear reset will handle healing but since the second coils of bahamut healing has shifted from being the hardest job to argued the easiest job. The ability to quickly get people up after a round of aoe and burst healing has significantly gone up with gearflation. Overall healing potency seems a bit high since most healers hit I level 90+ over a year ago. It least healing is newbie friendly now and with 3 healers in the game they may start to disproportionately be more then 25% of the overall playerbase with the normal paradigm of 1 healer, 1 tank and 2 dps. Id say more along the line of 35%-40% of people will main healers since its now the easiest of the covered roles in ff 14 now. Tanks will still be a huge issue now and with complexity being cranked up a bit for dps its no wonder so many people are changing mains to a healer now.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Which was unfortunate given it was originally a nerf of the original 1.0 trial. Seriously, in 1.0 you had to kill all the moogles and still have a Bard use their '2hr' to survive the opening Memento Mog.

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It's not nice to exaggerate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKyVVtnmqE0

Namely around 5 minutes. There's no mitigation apart from Stoneskin and Protect on the party, and most of them were only dropped to half HP.

Let's also not forget that a WAR's maximum HP back in the day was around 4-5k. Which is the equivalent of an average-geared healer now. So we're way overgeared.

You're suffering from being full i130(maybe level synced to i110) while doing old content.


Nothing needs to be changed, you're just stupidly over geared for the dungeon you're running.
If you CAN'T hold hate even if you're decked out, then sorry you're just derpy.
No, you're not skilled at all if you're complaining about something little like this.



also, this is FFXIV, not FFXI. Jeez.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I used to be against the idea of grabbing all the trash mobs, but now I just don't care. Trash is trash. Boss fights, though... those need to be a little more complex than just "tank and spank and maybe deal with a mechanic. Otherwise ignore mechanic" (remember when doors in Diabolos were required to be opened? Me neither).

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Some of us like dungeons that take more than 15 minutes to clear.

When I left wow, I'd hoped I'd left that stain of a design behind.

Pull to boss, aoe. Repeat.

Can people stop bumping this so the devs can look at the posts that ACTUALLY matter.

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Originally Posted by Onikimaru

Can people stop bumping this so the devs can look at the posts that ACTUALLY matter.

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But... But you just bumped it. Almost an hour after the last reply.

And now I'm bumping it, too!

AND IF SOMEONE ELSE POSTS IN RESPONSE TO ME, THEY'LL BE BUMPING IT TOO.

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE MAN?

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

But... But you just bumped it. Almost an hour after the last reply.

And now I'm bumping it, too!

AND IF SOMEONE ELSE POSTS IN RESPONSE TO ME, THEY'LL BE BUMPING IT TOO.

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE MAN?

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NOOOO NOW I'M PART OF THE PROBLEM :S

http://d2tq98mqfjyz2l.cloudfront.net...77_animate.gif

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Originally Posted by Cherie

If played at launch, we know that the trinity was doing fine in dungeons. The dungeon AK at 2.0 launch, before the nerf, was way hard and even harder with only darklight at best. There was no pulling the entire room. Long after we overgeared it, they decided to nerf it *then* because people thought it still was too hard.

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If you played FFXIV at launch then you would know the goto strat for AK and WP was sac pulling all the mobs to the boss, tank dies, healer rez. kill boss. That was only slowed down when they added gates to WP, aka the oils dropping from tonberrys

Did anyone else get really excited than read the details of the thread and realize this guy has no idea what he is typing about? The answer to your "concerns" is overgear. This has been said many times. Now for a road map to the content progression style to expect please see WoW. We called this back when beta came out.

This is the admission price for those who don't play games just to get instant reward. Just have to enjoy the content when it's "New" And hope the lambs can get carried through it.
(I totally rocked this post.)

Honestly? I say wait until HW before talking about how facerollingly easy content is. Something tells me it won't be as easy in 3.0.

the whole dungeon design is poor imo. Other games offer more choices, also evading mobs, or triggering certain elements, so far in arr its TRASH TRASH TRASH, Boss, TRASH TRASHetc. boss....
that is many step backwards in terms of gamedesign to me. Lazy boring and with no replay value. so if they keep it like that, PLEASE DONT MAKE THE TRASH HARDER TO KILL. that would mean, longer ... boredeom.

Im all for more creativity in dungeons, more options that encourage also more single target dps and maybe more CC tactics.
Also i cannot see the AOE madness anymore. Literally every stupid mob is an aoe or cone spamming mob.... booooring.

Maybe more randomly generated areas/mobs and mob placements would help as well. it really baffles me that they only took the FFXI mobdesign (almost unchanged with a tad better graphic) but didnt copy the positive elements it had (i said positive elements, so don't start the typical ffxi rant please).

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Don't tear a rotator cuff patting yourself on the back. Do you really think this game would have survived long enough to release an expansion if they catered only to people who say they want challenging content--whatever that even means anymore--but are quiet as church mice whenever someone new asks for help? There's a reason those dungeons and that particular STORY fight had to be scaled back: So-called "pros" wouldn't do them once they got their clear.

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SoF:
I dunno what else to tell you if the NPC tells you what to do and you still can't beat it. It literally held your hand most of the time.
It just needed a re-try thing and by the time Vishap got to the end and you knew you failed, it was an impending doom, after 2 wipes people started to get the hang of it.
[SoF also needed to drop SOMETHING...Maybe a Vishap card? Something to get people to return to it.]

I for one, do tell people what to do and I do help and I DO ask people if they are new. I did Brayflox yesterday, I told the NIN to follow my marks, he doesn't.
The Bard to not attack boss at it slept and he says "YOU DON'T NEED TO FXXKING SLEEP THE BOSS!" after we died, twice because he kept waking it, then leaves. I looked at all 3 peoples and that was their only job level.
Even the newbie WHM was helpful and smart and he also gave advice. [He was like 38.]
So you have people who take advice or don't. People try to help. We get sick of trying because
people act like babies every time you try.

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

Hi there

I believe you are a bit miss guided.

1. There are several skills involved in tanking and holding hate. However running into a group of 20 mobs and maybe poping cooldowns and then spamming your aoe taunt is not skill.
2. I don't understand why you think simply increasing damage is not good enough. It's so simple and it solves the problem for all mobs and all classes in one go. Adding boss mechanics is such a complex way of solving the problem which might not work and will take a lot of work. My solution can be done in 1 afternoon.

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how did no one catch this gem lol