Zepla: Endwalker is the Worst FFXIV Expansion I have played

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I'm guessing both of their next series of posts are about to get particularly spicy.

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I'd personally prefer if we could all move on and actually continue an actual discussion, but knowing how this forum goes, it'll probably continue to get derailed into senseless bickering lol

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Originally Posted by Zairava

I'd personally prefer if we could all move on and actually continue an actual discussion

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I agree. However, people choose to die on some pretty strange hills, so the bickering continues.

After most my points fit more into derailing, i present you my take :) ... that has almost nothing to do with Zepla's video...

What i miss is things to do for the hardcore players, even though i am not one of them. I see people in my FC taking breaks or quitting entirely because they have nothing to do. The other things are longer time between patches and the predictability.

If the next deep dungeon is just gonna be another PotD with another animal transformation than what is the point? They seem to get too save with all of these. Like running the checklist.

In contrast we have new stuff like IS and VD/CD. Little rewards and no (big) group content... meh.

I personally would love a creative mode. A dungeon creator or something. Just look at Minecraft, Little Big Planet and so on. The devs of those games made the individual elements while the players create their own game. I feel like something in this direction will be good for FFXIV, because:

• We don't need big rewards for a creative mode: the mode itself - like creating dungeons and running them or make your own village IS the reward, therefore no fomo
• It provides something different to MSQ or Raids etc that always need writers and events and gear you can get... so it hopefully needs less dev time in the long run
• It can expand the "themepark mmo" idea even more

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Originally Posted by Striker44

See, thank you for proving my point. This is why you don't get useful feedback, because you either just ignore it, attack the people providing it, or stuff lies in people's mouths and then attack them for it. For the record, my "laundry list" also includes the latest Variant Dungeon and Island Sanctuary, both of which are from EW and which I haven't started yet. I didn't even think about the new deep dungeon. But hey, I happened to pick one particular thing that's from a past expansion, and you immediately claim that's my entire list and then try to jump down my throat for it...and then you wonder why the doomsayers on this forum are ignored by anyone who actually matters (i.e. the dev team).

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I didn't ignore anything. You were the one that said, once you had done your stuff, you had a laundry list of stuff to go back to, pointing out the ARR relic as an example.
Ok, so you have Variant/Criterion and IS to do. Again, if you are current, what long lasting content is there to do?
Current on IS? You can visit it once a week to set up your workshop. What reason is there to visit the island, unless you want to just idle about? What content, on the island, is there that sustains itself, outside of 15min weekly setup and forget?
Variant/Criterion - Variant - once you have the items/mounts (and, I am guessing, the bulk of people may not try and acquire every item with potsherds), what reason is there to go back in? It's possible to clear Variant in a fortnight, if you visit it once a day, 15min, if that. What long lasting content is there in that? Criterion - same issue, except now it's harder difficulty, hard to find people to do it with and worse rewards. Even if you stretch it out by only doing Variant once a week, thats a self imposed limitation. Not intended life cycle that has been designed into it.
Deep dungeon - maybe, though, at least on Materia, it's pretty much dead. There is one entry in top 100, for September. 2 From August (look to be from the same party) and 6 from July. Doesn't really scream community engagement. You can argue that is the communities fault. I would say it's up the developers to give us engaging content and that hasn't engaged.

So, no, noone who is current and doing EW patch content, has actually come back with EW content that can sustain itself over the life cycle of EW, that encourages you to log in and stay logged in. Instead, they point to stuff that, you either clear it and don't go back, or you go and find content from the previous expansions: Eureka, Firmament, Bozja, prior Relics.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

I did watch the whole thing...

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I'm going to ignore you constantly throwing insults like you genuinely are unable to help it and instead note that your own reply - going point by point - was nearly as long as mine (and that post was longer since you replied to several posts), so clearly "long post" seems to be needed even by you to discuss the points.

But hey, you ACTUALLY mentioned the points, which is what I wanna do, too, so let's go with that!

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1) That was literally my point. Did you not read two lines above that where I said in order to discuss Zepla's points, we needed to distill down what her points actually were? "Watch the video and discuss her points!" Okay, which points? What are her points? "WATCH THE VIDEO!" 'watch the video' is not a point. I outright said I was going to list her points. So you can't get onto me for doing the very thing I said I was going to do and that needed done.

2) Indeed. That's the point. It's not exactly a negative when it's a positive to some people.

3) "You just recap Zepla's points", do I need to tell you to read again? (Okay, so far you aren't really discussing her points so much as you're attacking my post...maybe it'll get better, let's find out!)

4) (Okay, not getting any better). I'm literally going through her video. If you have a problem with how she presented her points, attack Zepla for that. And nobody asks you to reply to a single one of my posts with insults, yet you seem content to do it unasked. At least my unasked actions are discussing THE LITERAL TOPIC OF THE THREAD.

5) "I guess it would weaken your point" - I'm sure you'll get there eventually, but perhaps you'd notice where she talks about that later and so I mention it later? My god, man, you're desperate for things to attack me over.

6) Again, if you have issue here, take it up with Zepla.

7) That's the question, isn't it?

8) Shocker? I say it all the time. I know you don't read my posts, as if you did, you'd know that already.

9) Again, this is a Zepla point. So you disagree with Zepla? I agree with her on Exploration Zone content. I think it's good because it gives people something to spend time on if they want it but it's not mandatory/MSQ, meaning people aren't forced to if they genuinely don't enjoy it. That's the secret to good game design. Have a lot of stuff for people to do that they can really spend some time on, but that's not mandatory so people engage in what they enjoy. It seems, btw, from one of Yoshi P's interviews, that they are leaning towards having another Exploration Zone in 7.X, so that'll hopefully be a thing and maybe people will appreciate it this time.

10) Hm? ZEPLA called out people saying that, I just repeated her. Are you REALLY this desperate to attack me? I mean, I say all the time some people here seem desperate to find anything they can to attack me over, but you're putting it to the proof.

11) "You just restate her stuff and add a tiny bit" - THAT WAS LITERALLY THE OBJECTIVE. Again, if you can't read things, it's hard to have conversations. I don't disagree with you on the pacing, btw. More balancing it out would be nice. On the other hand, "We're doing the FF4 story in FF14" was always going to be kind of predictable due to the nature of it. Hopefully they won't do that again in the future or will stick that kinda stuff to side stories.

12) What are you talking about? That was Zepla's point, not mine. So you disagree with Zepla now? I mean, it's fine if you disagree with Zepla, but understand you're disagreeing with Zepla (who you seem to love in this thread) not with Ren (who you seem to hate).

13) I don't mind you repeating yourself, but I have to repeat myself: What are you talking about? That was Zepla's point, not mine. So you disagree with Zepla now? I mean, it's fine if you disagree with Zepla, but understand you're disagreeing with Zepla (who you seem to love in this thread) not with Ren (who you seem to hate).

14) Find me a person here who likes the 2 min meta. I also think, of ALL things to go after me for, this is the weakest. Especially since I didn't say everyone hated it: "I think this is the single most universal complaint in EW. While there are a few people that try to defend it, the single closest thing to "literally (almost) everyone agrees" is probably that players overall seem to dislike the 2 min meta." "most universal" not universal, "there are a few people that try to defend it" acknowledging there is some minor disagreement, but that this is the "closest" thing to everyone agreeing with you're likely to find.

15) "Factually wrong" - then tell Zepla. She was the one that said you couldn't use it for leveling.

16) Stylistic complaints, you have a-plenty. The stuff right before were all quotes but I didn't want to "X...and Y also...Z", but whatever. Yay, something we agree on, even if you couldn't just say "I agree" without finding something to attack me over.

17) "Yeah she mainly plays CC, we know" - who is this "we" of whom you speak? I didn't know, and all the people in this thread saying they don't watch or listen to Zepla ordinarily likely didn't know, either. The irony? I actually agree with you here; I don't do CC at all, ranked or unranked, and just do FL (RW when there's an event, though I haven't done it yet in this latest Moogle Tome event), and I think it's a crying shame they don't seem to care much about FL balance or imbalance being all over the place, despite it being so consumed. I'd say it's probably the thing most casual PvP people dip their toes in...but I don't want you to DEMAND I provide a citation on this thing you agree with or you'll hammer me over it, so I just won't say it.

18) "Man if you wouldn't have made an insult in the same post that would have been a good point." - are you addressing this to Zepla or to my criticism of her doing it? Note I didn't include an insult in that paragraph.

19) Sorta, though it seems she thinks it's partly Yoshi P being stretched too thin by the company.

20) I mean, her take there seems to be moderate and nuanced. Not sure why one wouldn't like it, but...could you explain what you disliked about it?

21) Honestly? I don't know what people like about Ultimates. They seem to be longer, even more unforgiving Savages that have a neat story but you can't really enjoy in the middle of the fight and have to watch videos of people doing it (or your own recordings) after to see all the emotes and dialogue and stuff. I do understand the feeling, though, of doing something few have done, seeing things few have seen, and being one of the first people into something. I feel that way logging in the day of a new Exploration Zone and heading in for the first time, getting the levels to go to the new areas, etc. Add to that that people that have a close group they play and prog with get to spend time together that way. So I understand it from that perspective. What I don't understand is why one would be fun and another not, since they offer that same general experience, other than the mechanics being fun vs annoying. But again, I don't do Ultimtes, so I simply am willing to take her word on that one. I don't think it's unfair to defer to an expert about something one doesn't engage with personally, and despite common belief around here, I do defer to people when it comes to things I genuinely haven't and don't do and don't derive enjoyment from.

22) That's actually a really good question. I guess we'll have to wait for her next video to see what she defines as casual content? I guarantee you it won't just be MSQ, though, since she mentioned the relic grind/Exploration Zones typically being casual content earlier in the video...

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You know, you started off kind of hard, but towards the end...those are some good replies and some good points to talk about.

"Ren will probably be like "What i got to read others posts now???"" - I literally read your whole post and responded point by point to the discussion topics, despite having to ignore and step around all the insults along the way. As it turns out, I can take it (long posts) as well as I can dish it out. Go figure.

There has been more content in this thread than the entirety of post-endwalker!

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Originally Posted by Renathras

holy mozzarella

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Tried to quote this post

was met with :

The text that you have entered is too long (8256 characters). Please shorten it to 3000 characters long.

8256 characters

https://i.imgflip.com/21oyih.jpg

^okay ren I’m gonna say this in the nicest way possible but NOBODY wants to respond to 21 individual points raised to the point you have to edit the post to dodge the post limit. BRVV only did it to attempt to show you the futility of trying to have a discussion when you are making 21 points per post

Distill zepla’s message down to her core 1-2 points then argue those, that way someone who actually wants to debate you won’t have your post be 9 pages deep by the time they actually formulate their response, then everyone can participate in the debate; rather than those who have an hour on their hands

zepla can afford to be longer and more free form because it’s easier to listen to 30 minutes of discussion than to read its transcript

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

There has been more content in this thread than the entirety of post-endwalker!

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To be honest...

If they monetized these threads or recreated them as some action drama or something, would probably make a killing, not gonna lie. There's some better stuff to be had here than on Netflix

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Originally Posted by FenyxRising

It really starts to make sense when some people are the way they are when you learn about their age.

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goodness he is a fossil basically

Adding a +1 to "writing is meant to be precise and get the point across." I actually got in trouble early in my postgrad career because I had a false assumption that more word = better like it seemed to all the way up through undergrad, but my professor basically hit me with "there's a max page count for a reason. I ain't reading all that. 0."

Alright I watched her video, condensed her points and tried to give some of my own commentary on it:

Zepla came back from a break refreshed and has taken another look at what bugged her. People in her circles are raidlogging, disengaged and pretty underwhelmed by the patch content. In her experience patches have very little staying power, she wants to have content people are excited for. She pins a lot of this lack of excitement on the lack of exploration zone. This is a vibes based thing, not specific to any one thing people did in bozja but because it funneled everyone into the same zone through various reasons (the lack of showing of mounts truly is tragic).

She hasnt heard a lot of people talk about relics this expansion (clearly not a forum poster). Relics in her opinion were about a journey together (forum posters who have read my posts know exactly what i think about relics and it does not align with what she thinks about this at all). She acknowledges that the EW relic is very much a deliberate choice.
For the story she wishes trials stayed in a side story like weapons or 4 lords (did we get less side quests because of this? felt to me like tataru quest replaced that, either is fine for me tbh). There is no excitement for her in the trials because we essentially know which trial is next.
Island sanctuary disappointed her because of spreadsheet simulator and nothing else being to it, no real reason to visit other people's island. (I firmly believe that the endgoal with IS is to create instanced housing)

She liked the raid series (both story and most of the fights) but she doesnt like the 2 minute burst window on all jobs.
Deep dungeon was not super exciting but aight, very cookie cutter.
V/C dungeon were very well designed in terms of playing but she dislikes the lack of rewards (I have strong opinions on MMO players addiction to extrinsic rewards for content but i'm not gonna complain if they put more rewards in content I already like, pure white dyes for example).
She likes CC but ranked is apperently dead after week 1 (liking CC is honestly just a bad opinion imo).
Giving people an exciting reason to log in is something very different than creating fomo structures that burn out people, she wants the first one but never the second one. (I also dont want the second).
DSR was her favorite gaming experience in gaming ever (clear DSR brain rot).

Her closing point is that all these things arent going to be fun for casuals either. (the word casual is doing some extreme lifting here, I see myself as casual and right in this moment the game is catering extremely to exactly me with how the raid tier is going for my static and the catching up on ultimates but the definition on who is casual isnt exactly set in stone). I guess I'll have to watch her next video aswell (on 2x speed)

Edit: hell yea didnt get hit by letter limit when i posted

Renathras makes me think of the definition of insanity. Always repeating the same thing expecting a different outcome.
Again, TLDR

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Originally Posted by Renathras

??

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Bro... what do you do all day?..

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Things changing in education and with the times is nothing new and is inevitable.

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Exactly.

Not sure why anyone took offense at my use of the word "different". Different doesn't mean bad, inferior, or anything negative. It just means different.

Was it the comment about social media? In my experience, there is truth in it. Perhaps someone else's experience is different. Again, different. Not bad, not inferior. Just different.

If you can accept that others are different with different experiences, different opinions and different ways of doing things, it's fairly easy to get along.

Unfortunately, there are a handful of posters here that are all too happy to immediately attack others who are different or who don't share the same opinion instead of saying "I disagree" and moving on. Human nature being what it is, those attacked eventually respond in kind. We get these threads blowing up into 100+ pages of nothing constructive because people would rather engage in mudslinging than discussion.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

To be fair jojoya generally holds opinions that I don’t agree with but is mostly respectful, but defending quite possibly the longest post I have ever seen of ren’s with “we are just smarter than you” was always going to be a recipe to get dogpilled

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Which is not what I said at all. It's like people were looking for an excuse to get offended.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

After most my points fit more into derailing, i present you my take :) ... that has almost nothing to do with Zepla's video...

What i miss is things to do for the hardcore players, even though i am not one of them. I see people in my FC taking breaks or quitting entirely because they have nothing to do. The other things are longer time between patches and the predictability.

If the next deep dungeon is just gonna be another PotD with another animal transformation than what is the point? They seem to get too save with all of these. Like running the checklist.

In contrast we have new stuff like IS and VD/CD. Little rewards and no (big) group content... meh.

I personally would love a creative mode. A dungeon creator or something. Just look at Minecraft, Little Big Planet and so on. The devs of those games made the individual elements while the players create their own game. I feel like something in this direction will be good for FFXIV, because:

• We don't need big rewards for a creative mode: the mode itself - like creating dungeons and running them or make your own village IS the reward, therefore no fomo
• It provides something different to MSQ or Raids etc that always need writers and events and gear you can get... so it hopefully needs less dev time in the long run
• It can expand the "themepark mmo" idea even more

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Out of curiosity, what is bad about having nothing to do FFXIV? It means an opportunity to play a different game.

I've got friends that frequently bring up their backlog of games they want to get to. They appreciate being able to take a break from FFXIV to play those other games.

As for a creative mode, it's why I would love to see the housing system overhauled. We're pretty limited here compared to what some other games have offered.

When it comes to dungeons, I think that would be more complicated to accomplish here than in Minecraft and similar games (I'm familiar with dungeon creation in Trove). I'm not sure it could be pulled off in a way that would be satisficing for both creators and users.

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Originally Posted by PaulH

Please stop making me nod in agreement and I do like your very articulated and considered responses as I have mentioned before, please try and refrain from taking forum breaks :)

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Meanwhile a streamer I don't watch caused a forum post, so listened to it along with the the follow up. She has an opinion which is as valid as anyone else and whilst a streamer is making a living I take that into consideration whilst drawing my conclusion. I agreed with some of what she said it, disagreed on others. When this game based on my own personal measure of when the fun stops, stop. Now Theodric doesn't share my love of G'raha in fact I would say the very opposite, won't speak for him though, but doesn't stop me reading his thoughts and considering his perspective to keep myself informed and see another view and always in the spirit of good banter. In fact if we chatted about it say at fanfest, it would be a great conversation and I would part having had a good chat.

I do hope thought very unlikely that these posts do cause some conversation and debate back in HQ and with those specifically involved in the game, though any outcomes are impossible to please all parties I suppose.

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Hah, I appreciate it! I take a similar approach - I like to understand where different people are coming from and find some way of compromising/appealing to a broader range of personal tastes.

I'll likely be continuing to post for the foreseeable future given that I need to log on often enough to not lose my house. I can't rely on the demolition timer being paused now!

As for Fan Fest, I've no plans to attend one unless the game improves dramatically and did something very much to my personal tastes such as giving us an Ivalice themed expansion or something focused on Garlemald (as unlikely as that is now) but I did go to a Distant Worlds concert a few years back in London. :p

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

No? Not sure if you’re trying to get a rise out of me or something /shrug

Never stated ppl can’t have differing opinions. Just need to give them in a constructive way. With no personal attacks (which seems impossible for certain ppl here).

But also to not attack those who do enjoy the game how it is. Which happens a lot as well.

Instead of attacking each other, we need to use the avenues given to give feedback. I don’t think there are CM here that collects feedback, let alone engages with the community … would think that was their job!

FF14 is not perfect. But if we are giving the same feedback ad naseum and it isn’t being looked at or implemented, the next step is to look at why that is so. Too difficult? Too expansive? Doesn’t sit with the game’s vision?

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Good post. Agree with everything you said here, Angel.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

I don't know about you but when you have a discussion/arguments with people, you go one point at a time. Spouting everything at once will have the result we see now.
Also with how popular this thread is, your post will be lost in the void by the evening.

For the record, I sure didn't read it.

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You know, I've considered that.

She made functionally 22 points. We have a post limit of 20 per day. If we didn't have so strict a post limit, I'd consider it.

Though I'll also note that when people write out discussions on topics, they tend to break it into points but present it together, that way others can respond to points or respond to the whole.

And, as always "I didn't read" isn't usually an indictment on the person writing a thing...but you do you. What I will say is this: I at least offered concrete discussion on the topic and Zepla's points as she presented them in the video. Your post here in reply...did not.

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Originally Posted by Tahbitha

One does not simply post in these forums. There is mockery there, which never sleeps. Not with ten thousand alts could you change anyone's mind. It is folly.

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Some things are so worth doing, they're worth trying, even if the odds are high of failure. Trying to inject sanity into madness or serious discussion into dens of hecklers are both worth trying.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The preface he started with wasn't his. It was Zepla's own preface - but he cut it down in size.
Then why did you watch Zepla's video? Most of what he wrote was things she actually said though he summarized it. A few times though he wrote what she said word for word.
...
Are you sure you watched her video, or did you just have it playing in the background while you were watching Netflix on another monitor?

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Yeah, I'm not sure everyone saying they agree with the video actually watched the video.

And the thing is (as I told Snow 20 pages or so back), when I do write shorter posts, people fill in the gaps with their wrong assumptions...then attack me over those assumptions. So I'm damned if I do ("too long, didn't read it") and damned if I don't ("You IMPLIED this!" "No, I didn't" "YES YOU DID!!" "I didn't imply it and I didn't mean that, I meant this..." "NO YOU IMPLIED THIS!!"). It sounds more like people searching for excuses to attack someone and not have good faith discussions with them at this point.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Challenge for you - pull up Zepla's video and watch it again. Put Ren's post to the side so you can compare.

Which is the long winded one?

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Yeah, this is the weird thing. I'd honestly dare anyone here to summarize all her points and see how short they could actually make it without losing important details. I really am starting to wonder how many ACTUALLY watched the video they want people to talk about. Wouldn't it be hilarious if I was the first? I doubt it, but...it would be pretty funny at this point.

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Originally Posted by Nebelheim

So you essentially think people on the forums are uneducated morons because all of us don't write 100k word responses and think your more educated and above everyone else.

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That is, in no way, what Jojoya said.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Hilarious. I'm also probably the wrong person to try to use education on lol.

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This is why your reply was odd to me. I'd think you'd know better based on what you've said in the past about your background.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Yup, he corrected me in a shorter post that I did read lol. That said, can you really blame me for assuming - his post was long enough it very well could have used a preface.

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Kinda can blame ya, yeah. :) Considering the line right above that I literally laid out that I was about to summarize all her points and the very next lines are bullet points. If you had read the words immediately after "Preface)", it would/should have been obvious it was hers, not mine: "She says she wanted to..."

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

In my education, I was taught to be concise and to know my audience. This is a gaming forum, not a professional debate or a trial.

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Here's the problem I have with this: IN THIS ONE CASE, people are asking folks to debate and discuss her video and points raised in it.

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I also want to draw your attention to something - ever notice how when you and I are agreeing on something, your posts get 2-4 likes (usually me being one of them)? Notice this post of you disagreeing with Jojoya (and me by proxy) has 11? :)

I kinda want to make an alt, bash my Ren account with that alt, and see how many upvotes it gets. I mean, my point on that has already been proven a hundred times over, but it would be amusing to then post on my main quoting the alt with all its upvotes as damning evidence to prove it once and for all. :)

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

They cannot get their point across without resorting to dissertation length posts.

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You know? Any other time you might have had a point.

But we're literally discussing a 40 minute video and I literally just watched the video and listed her points and we're literally being berated about not talking about the video. If you watched the video and agreed with it, you spent far more time and effort than reading my post on the topic already, and if you (the people demanding we talk about it) were serious about talking about it, that was literally what my post was doing.

So far, only one person has actually replied to that - full of snark and insult, but at least did it - indicating that no one actually wants to talk about Zepla's points. They just want to berate anyone who won't agree with them...but seem not to even know what they are, considering the one person who DID go through my list accused me of making several of the arguments that were actually Zepla's arguments that they'd supposedly agreed to. It's almost like people aren't JUST not reading my posts, they didn't bother to watch the video they say the agree with.

Which begs the question of what they thought they were agreeing with...

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

My background is learning science, so I was taught the opposite (for writing summaries of findings): be concise and try to say the exact same thing but with less words.
...
Usually if I end up writing a lot here it's because the original post is large as well. I try to keep at about medium here at most.

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I'd like to test this, if you're game?

Watch her video again. Summarize all the points you think she's talking about, and offer your take on each, as I did. Can we see how long your post doing so will be? I'd like to see your take, honestly, and I'd like to see how short/long you can make it.

I'd also not the "original post" in this case was a 40 minute video. So...

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Originally Posted by Striker44

See, thank you for proving my point. This is why you don't get useful feedback, because you either just ignore it, attack the people providing it, or stuff lies in people's mouths and then attack them for it. ... But hey, I happened to pick one particular thing that's from a past expansion, and you immediately claim that's my entire list and then try to jump down my throat for it...and then you wonder why the doomsayers on this forum are ignored by anyone who actually matters (i.e. the dev team).

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This happens entirely too often. I don't think people are intentionally arguing in bad faith, but it makes it REALLY hard to have good faith conversations/productive discussions. (And there are a few accounts that probably are bad actors...)

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Originally Posted by Saraide

New challenge: watch the video and shorten it as much as possible without losing viewpoints.

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Yes, please.

I'd like to see everyone else's summaries.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I'm guessing both of their next series of posts are about to get particularly spicy.

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Nah, my next post was actually engaging in discussion. Seems I'm literally the only person in here other than the person I replied to doing so, btw.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

I'd personally prefer if we could all move on and actually continue an actual discussion, but knowing how this forum goes, it'll probably continue to get derailed into senseless bickering lol

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I've been trying, dude! Seriously. I'm literally the only one posting about her video and her actual points. And the irony is, all the people not doing that are splitting their time between attacking me over it, insisting I'm the one derailing the thread, assuring that they want to discuss her points/the topic, and attacking anyone who steps in on my behalf.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I agree. However, people choose to die on some pretty strange hills, so the bickering continues.

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I mean, I'm trying to and you're browbeating me over it. If you want to engage with Zepla's points, all you had to do was reply with your take on them OR look at my summary and offer rebuttals to any of the points you disagreed with. You thought it was more worth your post count to do this instead of that. So how genuine...well, never mind. Point is, no one's stopping you from doing so if you REALLY want to do so.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

^okay ren I’m gonna say this in the nicest way possible but NOBODY wants to respond to 21 individual points raised to the point you have to edit the post to dodge the post limit. BRVV only did it to attempt to show you the futility of trying to have a discussion when you are making 21 points per post

Distill zepla’s message down to her core 1-2 points then argue those, that way someone who actually wants to debate you won’t have your post be 9 pages deep by the time they actually formulate their response, then everyone can participate in the debate; rather than those who have an hour on their hands

zepla can afford to be longer and more free form because it’s easier to listen to 30 minutes of discussion than to read its transcript

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Snow, I'm going to say this in the nicest way possible:

Though MOCKING, BRVV did the right thing - actually responded to someone talking ABOUT THE TOPIC by...talking about the topic. And I was able to offer a direct response to him. THAT is what "discussing the topic" looks like.

Not mocking people's post length, not telling people they talk too much, not making fun of people, not berating people, not telling them how THEY should be discussing the topic. I'm literally the only one here discussing the topic other than BRVV's post replying to mine. NONE OF YOU are talking about the topic.

If you want to raise 1-2 of her points and so we can discuss those, then YOU CAN DO SO. I would reply to those points if you did.

Her message isn't 1-2 core points, though. It's 22. I know. I checked. I listed them out. Which shall we ignore? Shall we ignore the point where she thought the patches didn't add enough? Should we ignore where she thought Criterion didn't offer enough rewards? Shall we ignore her complaints on CC in PvP? Which points should we ignore?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Which is not what I said at all. It's like people were looking for an excuse to get offended.

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There's a funny thing here with General:

If your name is Renathras OR you agree with Renathras, people start making up things you said and/or interpreting things you said in the worst way possible so they can take offense and berate you over things you never said that they want you to have said so they can attack you over them instead of engaging with the topic you're discussing.

WEIRD, but that's the way it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlexiaD

Tried to quote this post

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See?

.

Everyone: We want to talk about the topic, Ren's derailing the thread.
Ren: <talks about the topic>
Everyone: LOL! Let's all mock Ren and berate him over post length!
Yoyoja: He's right you know.
Everyone: LOL! Let's all mock Ren and berate him over post length AND mock Jojoja, too! We want to talk about the topic, Ren (and Jojoya) are derailing the thread.
BRVV: I'm going to mock Ren but also respond to his points, that'll show him!
Ren: <Responds to BRVV's points ignoring the insults>
Everyone: LOL! Let's all mock Ren and berate him over post length!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

Renathras makes me think of the definition of insanity. Always repeating the same thing expecting a different outcome.
Again, TLDR

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TL;DFR:

You can't complain people aren't engaging with the topic WHEN YOU ATTACK THEM FOR ENGAGING WITH THE TOPIC.

I don't love Zepla. I don't hate Ren. I don't know why on page 80+ a summation of a video that is the topic of the thread needs to be given.

My long post was to mirror you. Didn't expect it to work that well.

I insulted you and others when they insulted me first. Not the best or nicest way to react but i at least didn't start the fire. Maybe you should read your gaslighting in your post or just read them to someone if you don't feel what you write has insults in it. To me it has. A lot of gaslighting, insults, elitism combined with assumptions about everyone else. I kept my assumptions low.

About the points.Yes i sometimes disagreed with Zepla. So? Isn't that the discussion you wanted?

I did assume you aggree with here when you didn't say otherwise. Apparently that was not the case since you harp on about me calling you out for things she said. I responded to the text. I'd assume you wouldn't mix your opinion and Zepla's takes that wildly. I don't know why you did. Your long post has Zepla's takes AND your opinion sprinkled in. What use that it have then? Realistically i would only need one of the 2. Keeping them seperate might help. On point 13 for example i did respond to you though? I mean you wrote that you aggree with here there specifically, so i don't get how that point should be seen as only Zepla's opinion.

People "having to come up" with reasons to play, what Zepla suggests is imho a bad take. Why? It sounds like it's my obligation to make the game fun for me. That in itself isn't so bad, but... i could just cancel my sub and finally play all those other games i have, or read more, or watch that show... you get my point. In this age that is just a weak argument imho.

"Note i didn't include an insult in that paragraph" - Yep that's why I said it's several paragraphs later :)

The only reasons i called you out for proof is you putting words in people's mouths while saying others - like me - are not allowed to speak for groups / everyone. Why do you get to state your assumptions but no one else?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Exactly.

Not sure why anyone took offense at my use of the word "different". Different doesn't mean bad, inferior, or anything negative. It just means different.

Was it the comment about social media? In my experience, there is truth in it. Perhaps someone else's experience is different. Again, different. Not bad, not inferior. Just different.

If you can accept that others are different with different experiences, different opinions and different ways of doing things, it's fairly easy to get along.

Unfortunately, there are a handful of posters here that are all too happy to immediately attack others who are different or who don't share the same opinion instead of saying "I disagree" and moving on. Human nature being what it is, those attacked eventually respond in kind. We get these threads blowing up into 100+ pages of nothing constructive because people would rather engage in mudslinging than discussion.


Which is not what I said at all. It's like people were looking for an excuse to get offended.

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“We have different educations, standards were different back then”

Nah bro I’m totally not saying I’m just smarter than you

Don’t try to pretend that 70’s education valued long form commentary over knowing what the word synopsis means, you just wanted a thinly veiled way to say you are better than us

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I agree. However, people choose to die on some pretty strange hills, so the bickering continues.

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There is so much passive aggressive behavior in this thread that I just genuinely cannot tell the difference between people actually debating and people who just want to stir the pot because they can. There are so many posts I thought about quoting but realize it just isn't worth the time and effort to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Remish

There is so much passive aggressive behavior in this thread that I just genuinely cannot tell the difference between people actually debating and people who just want to stir the pot because they can. There are so many posts I thought about quoting but realize it just isn't worth the time and effort to.

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Honestly, I only have this to say in response. Try jumping into the middle of this mess and dealing with it all without getting at least mildly annoyed. That's a pretty tall order.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Out of curiosity, what is bad about having nothing to do FFXIV? It means an opportunity to play a different game.

I've got friends that frequently bring up their backlog of games they want to get to. They appreciate being able to take a break from FFXIV to play those other games.

As for a creative mode, it's why I would love to see the housing system overhauled. We're pretty limited here compared to what some other games have offered.

When it comes to dungeons, I think that would be more complicated to accomplish here than in Minecraft and similar games (I'm familiar with dungeon creation in Trove). I'm not sure it could be pulled off in a way that would be satisficing for both creators and users.

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Nothing is wrong with that. I would just assume SE wouldn't play assist on that and about the creative modes... yeah they would probably need a few patches to get a version that is liked by the community but they should still try.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Exactly.

Not sure why anyone took offense at my use of the word "different". Different doesn't mean bad, inferior, or anything negative. It just means different.

Was it the comment about social media? In my experience, there is truth in it. Perhaps someone else's experience is different. Again, different. Not bad, not inferior. Just different.

If you can accept that others are different with different experiences, different opinions and different ways of doing things, it's fairly easy to get along.

Unfortunately, there are a handful of posters here that are all too happy to immediately attack others who are different or who don't share the same opinion instead of saying "I disagree" and moving on. Human nature being what it is, those attacked eventually respond in kind. We get these threads blowing up into 100+ pages of nothing constructive because people would rather engage in mudslinging than discussion.


Which is not what I said at all. It's like people were looking for an excuse to get offended.


Out of curiosity, what is bad about having nothing to do FFXIV? It means an opportunity to play a different game.

I've got friends that frequently bring up their backlog of games they want to get to. They appreciate being able to take a break from FFXIV to play those other games.

As for a creative mode, it's why I would love to see the housing system overhauled. We're pretty limited here compared to what some other games have offered.

When it comes to dungeons, I think that would be more complicated to accomplish here than in Minecraft and similar games (I'm familiar with dungeon creation in Trove). I'm not sure it could be pulled off in a way that would be satisficing for both creators and users.

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Out of curiosity, what is bad about having nothing to do FFXIV? It means an opportunity to play a different game.

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https://gifdb.com/images/thumbnail/b...k0kubm2u50.gif

Pointing out the insane length of posts = attacking?
I think you may need a break from the internet Ren.

For the record, I'm not engaging in the convo because I'm at work and don't have the time to read and respond to a novel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Remish

There is so much passive aggressive behavior in this thread that I just genuinely cannot tell the difference between people actually debating and people who just want to stir the pot because they can. There are so many posts I thought about quoting but realize it just isn't worth the time and effort to.

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There needs to be more outright aggression, I want to see blood being spilled in the comments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

“We have different educations, standards were different back then”

Nah bro I’m totally not saying I’m just smarter than you

Don’t try to pretend that 70’s education valued long form commentary over knowing what the word synopsis means, you just wanted a thinly veiled way to say you are better than us

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Again, that's you looking for reasons to take offense and not me trying to give it.

Things were different and so I do things differently. Is that genuinely so hard to understand?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

There needs to be more outright aggression, I want to see blood being spilled in the comments.

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If people knew 100% for a fact they would not get a ban, I'm sure there would be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Again, that's you looking for reasons to take offense and not me trying to give it.

Things were different and so I do things differently. Is that genuinely so hard to understand?

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Whatever your intentions were, and whether you realize it or not, you really were coming across this way. If that wasn't intended, no harm no foul. But it was pretty easy to take it the way that people are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Again, that's you looking for reasons to take offense and not me trying to give it.

Things were different and so I do things differently. Is that genuinely so hard to understand?

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Not only do you basically call people stupid and "not on your level of education", you also have takes like this :

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Out of curiosity, what is bad about having nothing to do FFXIV? It means an opportunity to play a different game.

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And you wonder why people dont take you seriously

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Again, that's you looking for reasons to take offense and not me trying to give it.

Things were different and so I do things differently. Is that genuinely so hard to understand?

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You're trying to prove your point. Saying there's a difference in education as a counterpoint doesn't look good on your end.
In the context of the conversation, people assuming you're calling yourself smarter makes complete sense.

Your intentions are not being reflected well in how you write if what you're claiming afterwards is indeed true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Nothing is wrong with that. I would just assume SE wouldn't play assist on that and about the creative modes... yeah they would probably need a few patches to get a version that is liked by the community but they should still try.

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Most gaming executives wouldn't want to play assist. I think this is one area where YoshiP is using his personal experience as a gamer to influence design.

He loves playing a lot of different games and to some degree FFXIV has benefited from that. He wants players to be able to enjoy FFXIV while also still getting to play other games.

It can be a way to build customer loyalty, counterintuitive as that might be to some. The game respects that players have other interests and so players will choose to return in the future because they want to, not because they fear falling too far behind others. (I know some would bring up "housing" here but there's been plenty of discussion on that problem elsewhere)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlexiaD

Not only do you basically call people stupid and "not on your level of education", you also have takes like this :



And you wonder why people dont take you seriously

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Omg the other games thing I thought was mostly parody. Whaaat….oh how you doing btw other me….or am I other you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BRVV

...

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Short:

1) I liked your long post. There was something to actually talk about and it was about Zepla's points. I've said for dozens of pages I want to talk about the topic. Everyone else SAYS it, but spends their posts insulting and attacking me (and anyone who agrees). But when you actually post about it, the thing everyone's SAYING they want to talk about, which I actually DO want to talk about; yes, I'm going to respond to that and engage. Because I'm the person here who actually isn't lying about wanting to talk about Zepla's points. So yeah, please do that more.

2) Where did I insult you first? In this discussion, or is this a chicken/egg deal from somewhere else? That said, I didn't start the fire. And who am I gaslighting? Be very specific, because some people, SPECIFICALLY two, love to heckle me. Most others I'm far more measured with, and I even try with those two, but as you can see in literally every one of Alex/Storm's replies to me, she wants no part in actual discussion, no matter how hard I try.

3) Yeah, that is the discussion. I'm cool with it. I was just wanting to clarify you were disagreeing with her points.

4) If she originated the point, then you should disagree with her since that's the OP of this video. You did say at one point you disagree with her take. That's good. Remember: We're discussing HER POINTS, not my takes on her points. Feel free to offer rebuttals to things I say, but if you disagree with the base point itself, an "I disagree with Zepla on this" is probably the way to go, then say why.

5) Interesting. And fair. I think this is the distinction between "Sandbox" and "Themepark" MMOs, and FFXIV has long been much closer to the Themepark side of that balance.

6) I'll have to go through the whole post again, but I'm not sure I put an insult in it. The only thing I can think of is if you take "heckler brigade" as an insult as opposed to a statement. And one which one of the key members immediately justified by...doing exactly that. I do try to minimize insult, but I can try less. But you must understand - read all the replies here addressing me in negative terms and being far more insulting than that - how hard it is not to be at least a bit jaded in the face of the massive wall of it I'm getting each time I open a new page in this or any thread!

7) So the record's clear - I don't say you can't speak for others. I do say don't call your position a majority or an absolute majority (everyone). I'm pretty careful about this myself. I'll say things like "some people" instead of "most people/everyone" when I'm speaking to something others agree with but acknowledging that it isn't universal. I don't think there's a single position related to this game that IS absolutely universal. I do think there are some things close. Heck, even you recognize that's true of the 2 min meta and were just saying that to get a rise out of me instead of actually disagreeing with the point.

.

One EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

For the record, I'm not engaging in the convo because I'm at work and don't have the time to read and respond to a novel.

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Is calling my posts "a novel" a complement?

I don't think it is, but maybe it is and I've been taking it wrong this whole time. When you say that, you're complementing me, not attacking me? I just want to make sure I'm clear on that... I just want to make sure that I understand correctly that calling someone's posts long is a COMPLEMENT and not an insult/attack. If I've been getting this wrong all this time, I do apologize. I didn't realize it was meant to be complementary.

In that case, thank you for the complements. Considering how often I get heckled and attacked over it, it's nice someone paying me a complement for once. Thank you.

EDIT2:

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Here is something I slaved over all day on MS Paint to serve as a visual aid of some of your posts:

https://i.postimg.cc/Xqq56Shr/Ren.jpg

For me it's not a compliment or an insult or attack; just commentary. I think if you post a 7K character post with 22 arguments, most users on a gaming forum are going to skip it. It's too much to process and even think about responding to for most people. I think you'd do better to pick out the thinks you care most about commenting on, rather than absolutely everything.

You seem to put a lot of thought into your posts, so maybe its best to use a few key points at a time, and after people can digest them you can move on to other points.

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I love it. Might have to save this. :D

As to the points:

People say they want to talk about the topic. I'm willing to engage with less if others are. So how about you present 2-3 of her points you think are worth discussing and we'll discuss them then move on to the next 2-3? I made a convenient list if you'd like to reference it... :)

And yeah, 20 post limit per day kind of limits discussion of that kind, but let's give it a shot.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaD

https://media.tenor.com/sWAbDn43REcA...stergolfra.gif

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Lol, okay, this one made me laugh. Definitely stealing that...

You get a like from me this day, Alexia.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Is calling my posts "a novel" a complement?

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Here is something I slaved over all day on MS Paint to serve as a visual aid of some of your posts:

https://i.postimg.cc/Xqq56Shr/Ren.jpg

For me it's not a compliment or an insult or attack; just commentary. I think if you post a 7K character post with 22 arguments, most users on a gaming forum are going to skip it. It's too much to process and even think about responding to for most people. I think you'd do better to pick out the things you care most about commenting on, rather than absolutely everything.

You seem to put a lot of thought into your posts, so maybe its best to use a few key points at a time, and after people can digest them you can move on to other points.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

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https://media.tenor.com/MIEzcqov-rAA...son-wwdits.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OgruMogru

https://media.tenor.com/MIEzcqov-rAA...son-wwdits.gif

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https://media.tenor.com/sWAbDn43REcA...stergolfra.gif

I didn't read your post so I have no opinion on your stance since I don't know what it is. But for a more concrete answer for you, it's an attack on the length of your posts, not you as an individual.
The insanity thing was because people have always told you your posts are too long and they don't read them. You continue to do it then get mad when people don't read them. It's a cycle that you continue doing.

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Originally Posted by OgruMogru

https://media.tenor.com/MIEzcqov-rAA...son-wwdits.gif

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Wouldn't this imply the opposite though? Colin's an energy vampire. :p He loves walls of texts. This is him in the middle of an extreme feeding session.

...Wait. Does this mean...?

Oh no.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Wouldn't this imply the opposite though? Colin's an energy vampire. :p He loves walls of texts.

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Yes, you got the joke. I was implying he's being a Colin Robinson :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OgruMogru

Yes, you got the joke. I was implying he's being a Colin Robinson.

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Gotcha. I thought that was your reaction specifically. I'm on the same page now. Colin's the dang best though, to be fair.