[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

This is now a no essay zone

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

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Actually, most MMO's pet class have ~30% of their pet doing the damage. And sorry, I don't want to be a want to be a DPS/Support Hybrid. The class is fine as is, minus a few QoL changes. It doesn't need an overhaul and it will not receive one either. What's so hard to grasp about that ?

Edit: Comparing Hack and Slash pet classes versus MMO pet classes is a terrible comparison. They are two very different types of game with two veru different type of balance.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Actually, most MMO's pet class have ~30% of their pet doing the damage. And sorry, I don't want to be a want to be a DPS/Support Hybrid. The class is fine as is, minus a few QoL changes. It doesn't need an overhaul and it will not receive one either. What's so hard to grasp about that ?

Edit: Comparing Hack and Slash pet classes versus MMO pet classes is a terrible comparison. They are two very different types of game with two very different type of balance.

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While i know diablo 3 is not the same exact type of game as FFXIV, it is a RPG game with pet issues all the same that dragonfire decided to use an example. I was really referring to witchdoctor in that it was a unique design on how we can think outside the box of how creatures in video games should be summoned.

Also its not unreasonable that the basics of a rpg, the way stat are handled cannot be taken into consideration. The development team of diablo 3 had a very good idea to fix the pet that could of easily been applied to this game with a little balancing/tweaking since they were referring to the game pets AI unable to dodge attacks which is also considered an issue of this game when debating on whether or not we should make pets stronger.

Hack and slash games are dynasty warriors,devil may cry, god of war,Castlvania:LOS,etc. Diablo 3 is considered isometric dungeon crawling RPG.

If the developers never do it, that's fine. I enjoy discussing these type of things, and maybe someday if i decide to make my own game which i inspire to...all this discussion will help me refine my knowledge and ideas so they will be more solid in the future. So whether i accept it or not, will not deter me in the slightest.

It is your prerogative if you want the class to remain the same, however ideas or attempts at persuasion are very seldomly taken seriously if there is a clear bias towards one side or another. While i am somewhat biased myself for the game to change, i can admit to my mistakes and entertain the idea that i could be wrong. It adds to my credibility that i am willing to discuss the other side and not try to censor it by requesting thread locks or tell people to accept that they are wrong and move on without discussion.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

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Saying that Diablo III (which is funny because the first Diablo is what helped popularize the genre) isn't a hack and slash game but Castlevania (The very definition of the Action-adventure genre) is one is totally pants-on-head stupid and contrary to what you state, actually makes you even less credible.

I am all up for discussion as well but no matter what you seem to think, no sane developer will ever balance a MMO pet class to be similar to a hack and slash one. It just doesn't work that way. You want to change something that works perfectly fine right now just because a vocal minority doesn't like it and that's just not going to happen.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

I am all up for discussion as well but no matter what you seem to think, no sane developer will ever balance a MMO pet class to be similar to a hack and slash one. It just doesn't work that way. You want to change something that works perfectly fine right now just because a vocal minority doesn't like it and that's just not going to happen.

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Don't forget their clearly stated motive of wanting to fish for ideas from random people on another game's forum, cause they hope to develop their own game one day.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

If the developers never do it, that's fine. I enjoy discussing these type of things, and maybe someday if i decide to make my own game which i inspire to...all this discussion will help me refine my knowledge and ideas so they will be more solid in the future. So whether i accept it or not, will not deter me in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Saying that Diablo III (which is funny because the first Diablo is what helped popularize the genre) isn't a hack and slash game but Castlevania (The very definition of the Action-adventure genre) is one is totally pants-on-head stupid and contrary to what you state, actually makes you even less credible.

I am all up for discussion as well but no matter what you seem to think, no sane developer will ever balance a MMO pet class to be similar to a hack and slash one. It just doesn't work that way. You want to change something that works perfectly fine right now just because a vocal minority doesn't like it and that's just not going to happen.

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Castlevania lords of shadows is like god of war and devil may cry style of games. You only said castlevania by itself so i assume missed out on the LoS i included.

I guess you could call diablo 3 action and adventure, however isometric dungeon crawler rpg is easily just equal fit of a label.

You don't seem up for discussion. Since you do not try to discuss any of the ideas in my post and just want to find flaw with it. I up for flaws of my mistakes themselves on each individual point and not broad sweeping generalizations that diablo 3 and mmo's don't have any RPG connections at all. Your arguments have no substance and only focus on rhetoric and cherry picking parts of the post to try and discredit me rather than actually discussing the content of the post at length.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

Don't forget their clearly stated motive of wanting to fish for ideas from random people on another game's forum, cause they hope to develop their own game one day.

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I want summoner to improve in FFXIV because i enjoy playing FFXIV and always enjoyed summoner as a class and i want FFXIV to succeed.However, In your eyes i am not to be taken seriously because i enjoy discussing ideas seriously, and because somehow me wanting to become a game developer someday makes me less credible? You see, this is why i ignored your last 1 or 2 posts. You don't really seem intent on discussing anything worthwhile that's directly relates to the subjects or ideas i lay down in my posts and instead find ways to try and make me upset or get people to take me less seriously without addressing the actual ideas by my original posts.

SE is not going to find me less credible because i aspire to become a game developer and wouldn't mind adding to my knowledge and improving upon myself. I am not a threat to them or their game, and if anything i am potentially a boon if they decide to change their minds in the future.Me wanting to make games for a living does not make me discussing ideas for games less credible just because i don't fit your idea of absolute brand loyalty where if i don't only support this game then clearly my ideas somehow are wrong.I don't understand...are you trying to imply that i am somehow the enemy and SE must ignore me or something?

They are not children they understand that even game developers may enjoy their games as well. Fishing for ideas for a game that doesn't even exist yet is not something i am exactly doing. I just keep refining my knowledge so when i do decide to develop a game... i will know what i am talking about.The other half of that refinement of my wisdom is playing games like FFXIV and other genre of games that also have RPG systems.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

I want summoner to improve in FFXIV

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Complete overhaul is only an improvement in some eyes. Discuss QoL changes, not job butchering.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

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The game is successful already and a butchering of the summoner class is a sure way to go in the other direction. You're style of ideas have been debated a thousand times over and bringing them back over and over again is asinine at best. Also, I am not attacking you but the flaws of your arguments (which seem keen to change by arguing semantics).

You keep talking about others needing to be taken seriously so here is an advice exactly so you can be taken seriously. Propose realistic changes for the job, like QoL and not changes that would butcher it.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

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If outlining your motives for assertly pressing for further discussion bothers you so much, perhaps you should re-examine your motives.

I don't want to discuss ideas with you because your not just talking about redoing Summoner with that massive wall of text, but also competely redefining the role of Healer now as well. Not only would parties be stacked with Summoners thus invalidating other dps if they functioned as you described, but it'd likely replace a Healer as well. Oh, and they could pinch Tank too. There is little difference between Akiza's 'Summoner should do everything' posts and your own aside from length, and the ulterior motive of wanting to keep people talking so you can expand your gaming knowledge, in hopes to later apply to your own game.

would you guys feel better about smn if the spells weren't so evil? for example instead of bio , bane, and virus they could have trine, magic breath, and shock(shock would probably be a paladin ability considering FFT and ff9)

They would still have to be a dot class since burst is taken

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Originally Posted by Dwill

The game is successful already and a butchering of the summoner class is a sure way to go in the other direction. You're style of ideas have been debated a thousand times over and bringing them back over and over again is asinine at best. Also, I am not attacking you but the flaws of your arguments (which seem keen to change by arguing semantics).

You keep talking about others needing to be taken seriously so here is an advice exactly so you can be taken seriously. Propose realistic changes for the job, like QoL and not changes that would butcher it.

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You do not speak for everyone, in fact if there was any evidence that people wanted summoner to change...it's in the OP of this thread. Unlike charts that do not express intention or opinion it seems many people who do not play, or have played and are disappointed with the way summoner turned out. While roughly 40 people are hardly the vast of majority of the games population, you think that the answer for no would be a lot higher.

I also do not understand why i can only suggest things that fall within your idea of what summoner should be. If you argue that's the only way you will take me seriously then go ahead and think whatever you want....but it is quite arrogant of you to assume that vast majority thinks the same as you.After all you assume that the game will go in the other direction if the job changes, implying that everyone thinks just like you.

It's even more arrogant is to respond to me with serious posts then get upset when someone tells you they rather discuss new ideas of how the job would change when you yourself just admitted that you are only interested in discussing your own viewpoint.

If i asked for you to give me an example of a brand new ability that fit within your own QoL viewpoint..could you? Lets say this ability would be added when they raised the level cap. What would be your own best suggestion?

Every-time i make a new post you feel compelled to respond to it as if i was some kind of threat.Then you are not taking me seriously right? Then why even respond? I do not care if you do, but it is difficult to have any meaningful discussion for one side or another when we are always discussing each other's semantics as you said instead of brand new ideas. You don't even have to argue for the job to radically change.Just saying stop being a hypocrite.

In the end i am simply sharing ideas on what i believe should happen. For some reason that legitimately bothers you and you keep responding....that is very telling. If in your mind the dev's will never use my ideas, then it shouldn't bother you if i waste my time the way i want to. Not your place to moderate the forums, nor is it your place to tell people what they should discuss. Yes it is true i try to get people to discuss ideas...but i do not try to act so condescending about it. I do not think i am superior to you, nor do i say crap like how the game will start to fail because 1 job among many has changed.

If you do not like summoner filling multiple roles, fine... but should they have added rogue in when there is already so many other DD classes? Should there only be 2 healer classes available? Should there only be 2 tanks?(yes i know they are adding dark knight) Other mmo's are not afraid to add a bunch of classes that fill the same position, everyone wants their own flavor on how they want to play the game. You want DOT warlock ice cream while i want classic FF summoner Ice cream. We both have our own preference, i HIGHLY doubt that the game would go to crap just because they changed 1 job. Hell i think more people than ever would be playing summoner, just like everyone now is playing rogue, despite the fact that there is like 5 DD classes.

I also already explained in my idea post why i think it wouldn't be overpowered, the whole point of the post was address multiple issues at once so people can't just cherry pick arguments and isolate them from the rest of the post.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

You do not speak for everyone, in fact if there was any evidence that people wanted summoner to change...it's in the OP of this thread. Unlike charts that do not express intention or opinion it seems many people who do not play, or have played and are disappointed with the way summoner turned out. While roughly 40 people are hardly the vast of majority of the games population, you think that the answer for no would be a lot higher.

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Why do you keep referencing that OP ? It hasn't updated in more than a year:

http://i.imgur.com/tF2KLaX.png

The people who post on the forum are the minority of the playerbase and that's a fact. This year's census has also shown us a growth of ~30% in amount of summoners over the last year so I think Square Enix must have done something correct with the job. So in the end, it's only a minority that request the change and that's also a fact.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Why do you keep referencing that OP ? It hasn't updated in more than a year:

http://i.imgur.com/tF2KLaX.png

The people who post on the forum are the minority of the playerbase and that's a fact. This year's census has also shown us a growth of ~30% in amount of summoners over the last year so I think Square Enix must have done something correct with the job. So in the end, it's only a minority that request the change and that's also a fact.

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So you are going to ignore the rest of my post and only attack my weakest argument? Okay.

Also that chart only shows people who register in duty finder,how do you know that the full 21% of them main 50 summoner? How do you know that the full 21% of people that play summoner would not want newer abilities? Didn't you read my other posts?On top of everything else liking a job doesn't necessarily mean that they wouldn't want newer abilities that fit the jobs description a bit better.You are speaking for everyone again.

This may come as an absolute shock to you, but playing a job is not the same as liking it. I played jobs in other mmo's all the way into end game then ended stopped playing altogether because i was completely dissapointed with the job...i wanted to like it but i ended not caring for it at all. Because there is no way to know how a job will turn out without all its abilities, you end up pushing yourself to play it to completion. I know many ninjas in FFXI who very dissapointed that they were always pigeon holed into a tank role and gave our LS leaders a hard time whenever they wanted to do raids as other jobs...but we didn't have any other tanks so we told them that since they leveled it they had to fill that role since all other party members didn't have a tank leveled up. Now this is not true for everyone, but how do you know everyone that plays summoner wants to play it? How do you know even if they do they wouldn't mind change?

Even if people main summoners in end game, everyone has different opinions on how things should be done. I do not deny that SE will look at that chart and think that they do not have to do anything to the job...that is my own disappointment.However, my logic still rings true...not everyone who does play summoner thinks the same as you.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

If i asked for you to give me an example of a brand new ability that fit within your own QoL viewpoint..could you? Lets say this ability would be added when they raised the level cap. What would be your own best suggestion?

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Quick Summoning:
Cooldown: 120 seconds
Cast time: Instant
Allows you quickly summon a pet for no MP cost.

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Hell i think more people than ever would be playing summoner, just like everyone now is playing rogue, despite the fact that there is like 5 DD classes.

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That's a pretty high gamble to make. What's to say many people playing Summoner right now prefer the DoT/pet hybrid? Why not just make the pet class something that fits it better like Beastmaster? At least BST has been pretty consistent in what "feel" it has. I, on the other hand, think there would be great unrest if Summoner was to be overhauled now, or in the future to be nothing like it is now.

Baseball games are played with bases as squares. Some people do not like that they are squares and would rather they be neon coloured bath mats. MLB decides to change them to the neon coloured bath mats because the voices of the few.

This is more or less most of the arguments put forth by those wanting rework. Something simple => something ridiculous. There's a reason why people like you and Akiza are met with such "hostility", you try to reinvent the wheel. It's not reasonable to break something that isn't broken based on feelings. Especially when there is a very small sample size you're working with in *who* wants the change (need in-game census to be sure).

So going forward, if you're not interested in working within the system, people in this forum aren't going to take you seriously if you don't want to play by the rules.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

.not everyone who does play summoner thinks the same as you.

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Which is very easily extended to you.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

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Make up your mind. Do you want me to attack your argument or not ?

Since you haven't seem to have touched endgame in this game, let me tell you a little secret: There is 1 encounter where a Summoner is a somewhat necessity and it's T7 for the 4 stack strategy. For the rest, you can easily do the rest of the game without a Summoner. You can have a static with your DPS being Dragoon, Black Mage, Ninja, Bard and clear the entire raids in this game. So I think it's a safe bet to say that most people who play it to a reasonable degree at 50 enjoy the job. And no, all of them do not think like me but like Exstal said, the same can be said to you and it's also a safe bet to say that after Square Enix said multiple times that the job isn't changing, then it's not going to change, especially to something as drastic as what you're proposing.

If you're not going to be even remotely close to being realistic with the changes your proposing, I'm going to say this: enjoy wasting your time!

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

If you do not like summoner filling multiple roles, fine... but should they have added rogue in when there is already so many other DD classes? Should there only be 2 healer classes available? Should there only be 2 tanks?(yes i know they are adding dark knight) Other mmo's are not afraid to add a bunch of classes that fill the same position, everyone wants their own flavor on how they want to play the game. You want DOT warlock ice cream while i want classic FF summoner Ice cream. We both have our own preference, i HIGHLY doubt that the game would go to crap just because they changed 1 job. Hell i think more people than ever would be playing summoner, just like everyone now is playing rogue, despite the fact that there is like 5 DD classes.

I also already explained in my idea post why i think it wouldn't be overpowered, the whole point of the post was address multiple issues at once so people can't just cherry pick arguments and isolate them from the rest of the post

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The masses jumped on Rogue/Ninja because besides being the first new addition to the game in more than a year, it is a DPS, which the majority of people play. Heavensward will have one Tank (Dark Knight) and one Healer (Speculated to the Gun job Agent). SE has stated DK will not have a base class, with the statements about possibly reworking the Armory System going forward, it is likely the Healer will do the same. So if that is the case releasing Rogue/Ninja which does use the current system makes sense. It also give players time to get the most troublesome to level job out of the way before the expansion. Further note that the Doma refugee storyline was released already, and during it the Rogue Guild was already mentioned to be in Limsa.

People for the most part would rather spend time theory-crafting on ideas with a realistic grounding. For example, you want 'classic' FF Summoner, excluding the fact that Summoner does not have defined role from one FF to the next. Classically FF is a single player game. Balance is far less important, because characters in that setting are typically not going to feel snubbed if they are not played. However in a MMO balance is very important, because helps to ensure regardless of what job someone chooses to play, said job's role can filled equally well.

Roles: Tank, Healer, DPS. No Support because that role is mixed into the other 3. The role triangle is specifically used to better balance the game. Each job within a role does not directly overshadow another and this lets content be designed in such a way that it doesn't need to be accountable for radical differences between jobs. If your purposed Summoner were applied it completely breaks the this system by bleeding Summoner into other roles. Overpowered is not about flat numbers, so decreases in damage will not make up for having too many powers. That's why your flavor of Summoner changes if implemented would start a downward spiral. Because it breaks the role structure for the game, which is the cornerstone of balance.

Finally, I harp on your motivations because I feel they directly relate to your desire to have a conversation which is just repeating the same topics over and over, for the sake of a "problem" which doesn't have a strong case of existing. I draw from the example of pre-2.1 Warrior. There were no end to threads, videos, and discussions across multiple areas as to why Warrior needed a change. People would regularly leave a duty with a Warrior tanking. Spawn in, and gone. This is simply not the case with Summoner.

Does Summoner need some work? Yes, it does. Issues with MP, the usefulness of Tri-diaster, concerns of Spellspeed not being useful, yet it's on a lot of their gear. Hitting pet Accuracy caps, etc. However, every time you bring up how Summoner needs to be reworked in a radical way, and you keep bringing it up over and over, cause your championing an issue with little evidence to back it up. You distract from what players are more collectively saying about Summoner.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

If you do not like summoner filling multiple roles, fine... but should they have added rogue in when there is already so many other DD classes? Should there only be 2 healer classes available? Should there only be 2 tanks?(yes i know they are adding dark knight) Other mmo's are not afraid to add a bunch of classes that fill the same position, everyone wants their own flavor on how they want to play the game. You want DOT warlock ice cream while i want classic FF summoner Ice cream. We both have our own preference, i HIGHLY doubt that the game would go to crap just because they changed 1 job. Hell i think more people than ever would be playing summoner, just like everyone now is playing rogue, despite the fact that there is like 5 DD classes..

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As you yourself answered, the rogue/ninja was added for flavor. In general it's far easier to add damage classes to an MMO than any other class. The other problem is that your preference for the summoner class, which only existed in FFXI doesn't fit in the design of this game. Akiza and you have repeatedly demonstrated that neither one of you actually understand why the summoner class was designed along the lines of a pet+DoT class (which existed long before the warlock class in WoW). Before you can start asking for changes, it helps to understand the design guidelines.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Quick Summoning:
Cooldown: 120 seconds
Cast time: Instant
Allows you quickly summon a pet for no MP cost.



That's a pretty high gamble to make. What's to say many people playing Summoner right now prefer the DoT/pet hybrid? Why not just make the pet class something that fits it better like Beastmaster? At least BST has been pretty consistent in what "feel" it has. I, on the other hand, think there would be great unrest if Summoner was to be overhauled now, or in the future to be nothing like it is now.

Baseball games are played with bases as squares. Some people do not like that they are squares and would rather they be neon coloured bath mats. MLB decides to change them to the neon coloured bath mats because the voices of the few.

This is more or less most of the arguments put forth by those wanting rework. Something simple => something ridiculous. There's a reason why people like you and Akiza are met with such "hostility", you try to reinvent the wheel. It's not reasonable to break something that isn't broken based on feelings. Especially when there is a very small sample size you're working with in *who* wants the change (need in-game census to be sure).

So going forward, if you're not interested in working within the system, people in this forum aren't going to take you seriously if you don't want to play by the rules.



Which is very easily extended to you.

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Quick-summon is not a bad ability...however when black mage gets fire/blizard/thunder 4 and starts doing more damage than you....what then?A ability that makes it easier to summon your pet does not add to your damage. You specifically created that ability to serve what you want for the job now, not what would be realistic for levels 51-60. That is why i do not offer QoL ideas...I repeatedly stated in earlier posts that i have made these ideas for future updates. MY ideas do not have to completely redesign/overhaul the previous abilities of the job but could be introduced when level cap increases.

You example of baseball mats is...strange... you assume because i want something that means i am being emotional and for some reason i shouldn't want something because it would make the job more satisfying for me to play.The only reason anyone would suggest any ideas at all is because they think the ideas they are suggesting is making it more fun to play. Isn't it the same vein of logic as you if your idea with quick-summon that makes your job easier which in turns makes it less tedious and more fun to play?

Also ....."Which is very easily extended to you."? You imply that very few people would want this change even though there is no basis for that assumption.Was that not kinda the whole point of my post to dwill...yet you not only criticize me with quoting me out of context as if i didn't know any better but then you yourself made a similar assumption in your baseball example?

You say it will turn from simple into ridiculous, not only is that an opinion, but also ideas can be changed and redesigned to be less "ridiculous".

If you said something like....

"Well many of your spells make the job have a lot more buffs than what other jobs have, also sharing buffs with other jobs like WHM kinda take away from their uniqueness...it's just not consistent with the current design model we need abilities that fit within the current set number limit of the job's design."

I would be like..." OH wow!You are right! Maybe i should think of a new idea to fit within the ability limit of what is already there! Maybe i should introduce wards for attacking/buffs like FFXI summoner had. Therefore, people wouldn't have a bunch of macros on bar anymore!It would also fit within the set limit and be consistent with other jobs!"

Then you would say..."Wouldn't that stop your idea from auto-summoning through abilities to not work anymore and because the ward abilities require your pet to already be out?Therefore making the class gimp again because the pet could start dieing and becoming a burden like before?"

Then finally "Oh snap! You are absolutely right! Wow, unless we made the different pets on the macro bar somehow be combined with ward abilities, i don't know how my idea would pan out! I guess i have to figure out what I can do to make auto-summon work so pets won't be a burden and i can still fit it within the set limitations of the job."

That my friend is a constructive argument that convinces me that you are right.Now look at what everyone else is saying...do you see anything like that? No. they do not look at things from my side, they are children who keep attacking my credibility instead of debating of why the abilities would or would not work.You all make "Statements" not arguments. Even when they make arguments they argue about the feasibility of SE even implementing these changes instead of discussing the ideas themselves.

That is why i cannot take a lot of people on this thread seriously, they do not even want to ENTERTAIN the idea could work. They rather attack it as if there was a chance of it being implemented if they took it seriously for a moment. Remember that dwill was saying i shouldn't compare a job like witchdoctor from diablo 3 to summoner....even though he did not even say what individual aspects i was comparing..or even acknowledging that i was using it as a springboard for my own idea. It's arguments like those that end up dragging everything through the mud. No details are given if the detail could potential even be used to support my arguments in the slightlest, he has to always argue from a position that cannot be refuted in his mind.

"Why argue on a idea basis when i can just avoid allowing that discussion to even happen?"

It's manipulative and tries to make me think that my ideas are erroneous and hold no water. In a way it's the smart thing to do, but when you realize that it doesn't actually address the entire argument and just cherry picks what is convenient for their narrative you begin to see how it cannot be taken seriously. It doesn't even allow the discussion to happen, it's like if a politician insisted that global warming doesn't exist instead of arguing of how unfeasible it would be to fix it.They don't want you to fix it, so they prevent the argument from even happening.

That is exactly the kind of logic alot of people use..."telling" me what the facts are instead acknowledging that you could be wrong. Dwill tries to convince in this last post that the job will never change...really? At level 60 when the level cap raises(and it will, like every other mmo that ever existed) Black mages get thunder IV and Dwill the summoner gets nothing to be on par with other jobs?

Are you freaking kidding me!? He is SO stuck in his own argument that he cannot even acknowledge that the job will eventually change even if takes a level cap increase to do it. Yet he keeps responding pretending like i am wasting my time suggesting ideas for the future. Have you any of you ever considered that OTHER JOBS WILL CHANGE? That OTHER JOBS will get new ways to play? As a result summoner may very have to change to KEEP UP?Summoner currently is a DD job....how many DD jobs will change due to a level cap increase?You want more DOT from 51-60? Really?

This is the fundamental truth none of you seem to grasp. Even if my ideas are overpowered when in tandem with each other you seem to think that none of my ideas would hold water individually. You seem to think that if you embarrass me enough or discredit me enough or whatever the hell is going through your minds when you write your posts that somehow even if i do start to make sense that due to the fact that i made prior mistakes all my future ideas will be garbage? I am sorry but NO. Not for a second. Not even a little bit.

You are all acting WAY more selfish than me on just about every level that it is sickening. Many of you seem to think that you have to reply to my posts, and if i don't understand your logic then there must be something that is wrong with me...not the other way around. I honestly feel like i am being bullied by a group of people who want to rebel against all forms of authority whatsoever and that they have the "too cool for school" mentality. None of them would ever be caught doing something that isn't "Cool". Just like none of you would be caught discussing anything i say from a perspective that discusses the PRO's and CON's of my ideas since you insist on not taking my ideas seriously. You don't want the ideas to have any merit so you avoid even talking about them in any meaningful way. You only talk about the con's.

Now do you understand?Probably not. I wouldn't be surprised if some of you said TL;DR.

I am going to now write a post that fundamentally changes summoner to redmage/warlock and make a new class for summoner to be based off of. Probably won't hear from me again until tomorrow.

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Are you freaking kidding me!? He is SO stuck in his own argument that he cannot even acknowledge that the job will eventually change even if takes a level cap increase to do it. Yet he keeps responding pretending like i am wasting my time suggesting ideas for the future. Have you any of you ever considered that OTHER JOBS WILL CHANGE? That OTHER JOBS will get new ways to play? As a result summoner may very have to change to KEEP UP?Summoner currently is a DD job....how many DD jobs will change due to a level cap increase?You want more DOT from 51-60? Really?

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Of course those jobs will change. They have to, thanks to MUDflation and the perception of strength. This does not mean SE is going to fundamentally redesign all the classes, it means in addition to adding gear, they're going to add new skills and traits inline with the class's design. Summoners are a DoT + pet class, we'll get additional egis, probably level 3 of all spells, and some a few new additional Aetherflow abilities. They're not going to go hog wild because it will simply be too much. Why do you think Blizzard in WoW 6.0 is removing skills?

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his is the fundamental truth none of you seem to grasp. Even if my ideas are overpowered when in tandem with each other you seem to think that none of my ideas would hold water individually. You seem to think that if you embarrass me enough or discredit me enough or whatever the hell is going through your minds when you write your posts that somehow even if i do start to make sense that due to the fact that i made prior mistakes all my future ideas will be garbage? I am sorry but NO. Not for a second. Not even a little bit.

You are all acting WAY more selfish than me on just about every level that it is sickening. Many of you seem to think that you have to reply to my posts, and if i don't understand your logic then there must be something that is wrong with me...not the other way around. I honestly feel like i am being bullied by a group of people who want to rebel against all forms of authority whatsoever and that they have the "too cool for school" mentality. None of them would ever be caught doing something that isn't "Cool". Just like none of you would be caught discussing anything i say from a perspective that discusses the PRO's and CON's of my ideas since you insist on not taking my ideas seriously. You don't want the ideas to have any merit so you avoid even talking about them in any meaningful way. You only talk about the con's.

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The problem is that you have to prove you understand why the summoner in FFXIV is a "DoT+pet" class. The designers have given very explicit reasons why this is so, from mechanics to lore. All of your ideas fly in the face of that, solely so you can have an FFXI style summoner.

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You are all acting WAY more selfish than me on just about every level that it is sickening. Many of you seem to think that you have to reply to my posts, and if i don't understand your logic then there must be something that is wrong with me...not the other way around. I honestly feel like i am being bullied by a group of people who want to rebel against all forms of authority whatsoever and that they have the "too cool for school" mentality. None of them would ever be caught doing something that isn't "Cool". Just like none of you would be caught discussing anything i say from a perspective that discusses the PRO's and CON's of my ideas since you insist on not taking my ideas seriously. You don't want the ideas to have any merit so you avoid even talking about them in any meaningful way. You only talk about the con's.

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Seriously, stop posting on this thread. Just stop. This is a discussion about class design in video game forum. If you're this emotional over it, you need to stop posting. Unless you're working for Square or are involved in game design, it's not worth it. It's fun yes, but I think you need to get away for a little while.

Man delicious, add a tl;dr you may have some good ideas in those text walls.

Yoshi said they are going to use the xpac skills to further flavor the jobs. I have said a bunch if smn just gets more Summons instead of new skills it will be lame. Nothing like having ten pets when you can only have one out at a time

Pet role 1 single target
pet role 2 tank
Pet role 3 aoe

Add a pet panel like the choco panel
Let the summoner pick the look from attained primal essences (miss that carby you haven't seen since 30 they put resources into?)
Add a size slider to increase the size, only visible to the pets owner
add multiple skills per role to allow customization

Hopefully in the xpac we get some cool new spells
Long cool down double summon

aether merge, link with another player or your pet to increase damage 10% and share 30% damage taken 2min cool 10 sec duration.

one more dot only usable when enemy is below 30% hp high potency short duration.

Ruin refreshes bio trait

reactive that allows next miasma to have no cast time when pet crits. Pets next attack deals damage over time when smn crits.

Tridisater reworked from the ground up to apply bio miasma and bio 2 instantly 1 min timer get it tri-disaster? 3 dots? See what I did there?

Did I just blow your minds? :/

Now to get started on 3.0 warrior. RAGE MONSTER!!!

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Originally Posted by Delily

Seriously, stop posting on this thread. Just stop. This is a discussion about class design in video game forum. If you're this emotional over it, you need to stop posting. Unless you're working for Square or are involved in game design, it's not worth it. It's fun yes, but I think you need to get away for a little while.

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I am sorry but you seriously need to get a reality check. I wrote this entire post without feeling anything at all cause i am just so tired of the same exact attacks on credibility.Oh look...another one. =/.....

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The problem is that you have to prove you understand why the summoner in FFXIV is a "DoT+pet" class. The designers have given very explicit reasons why this is so, from mechanics to lore. All of your ideas fly in the face of that, solely so you can have an FFXI style summoner.

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Why respond at all if i am so wrong about everything?Don't accept the weak ass argument that since developers said it won't change at all.You make me mentally exhausted, maybe i do need a break from people like you. You just get all defensive of your precious DOT class.Have you even discussed my idea post at all in length? No i imagine you didn't.....*Sigh*

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Originally Posted by Einheri

Man delicious, add a tl;dr, you may have some good ideas is those texts walls.

Yoshi said they are going to use the xpac skills to further flavor the jobs. I have said a bunch if smn just gets more Summons in lew of new skills it will be lame. Nothing like having ten pets when you have one out at a time

Pet role 1 single target
pet role 2 tank
Pet role 3 aoe

Add a pet panel like the choco panel
Let the summoner pick the look from atained primal essences (that carby you haven't seen since 30 they put resources into)
Add a size slider to increase the size, only visible to the pets owner
add multiple skills per role to allow customization

Hopefully in the xpac we get some cool new spells
Long cool down double summon

aether merge, link with another player or your pet to increase damage 10% and share 30% damage taken 2min cool 10 sec duration.

one more dot only usable when enemy is below 30% hp high potency short duration.

Ruin refreshes bio trait

reactive that allows next miasma to have no cast time when pet crits. Pets next attack deals damage over time when smn crits.

Tridisater reworked from the ground up to apply bio miasma and bio 2 instantly 1 min timer?

Did I just blow your minds? :/

Now to get started on 3.0 warrior. RAGE MONSTER!!!

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I wish you were here sooner. Gonna go chew on my sofa now.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Have you even discussed my idea post at all in length?

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The question of "Why would a DPS do this, instead of a Healer?", applied to nearly all of your ideas. Going over them individually would not change that. The roles are there for a very specific reasons, breaking out of them disrupts the balance of the game.

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I am sorry but you seriously need to get a reality check. I wrote this entire post without feeling anything at all cause i am just so tired of the same exact attacks on credibility.Oh look...another one. =/.....

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Really?

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You are all acting WAY more selfish than me on just about every level that it is sickening. Many of you seem to think that you have to reply to my posts, and if i don't understand your logic then there must be something that is wrong with me...not the other way around. I honestly feel like i am being bullied by a group of people who want to rebel against all forms of authority whatsoever and that they have the "too cool for school" mentality

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That doesn't read like "no emotion". It reads more like emotionally drained.

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You got me.I called her out on her stupidity.

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Resorting to ad hominem attacks are we? I don't believe I've ever insulted you. I'm questioning your credibility because the design team has responded to the basic issue of why the summoner was implemented as a pet/dot class. It makes sense given the overall design of FFXIV and the playerbase the game is aimed for. You have yet to acknowledge that. You also don't seem to acknowledge that despite the view presented on this forum, the in game data indicates that people are happy enough with the summoner class to play it.

Like many before you (myself included) you have pinned your hopes on massive redesign of the class in an expansion. That has never happened. Given that FFXIV is doing well (as compared to 1.0) and people are playing the summoner class, I don't think expecting the design team to spend the time needed to properly re-implement the class and then retrofit everything accordingly.

If I'm wrong about this, I'll be the first to admit it, on these forums.

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Originally Posted by Einheri

Did I just blow your minds? :/

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http://i1356.photobucket.com/albums/...psdd1eaf21.gif

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Originally Posted by Einheri

snip

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High potency DoT under a certain percentage and Tri-Disaster inflicting all three main DoTs under a timer are both solid ideas. Sliders for size wouldn't work because Egi have their own hit box. Changing their size means altering their hit box. Their compact size is fine.

This post has, (in my opinion) two solid ideas.

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Originally Posted by Ardan

High potency DoT under a certain percentage and Tri-Disaster inflicting all three main DoTs under a timer are both solid ideas. Sliders for size wouldn't work because Egi have their own hit box. Changing their size means altering their hit box. Their compact size is fine.

This post has, (in my opinion) two solid ideas.

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I think Tri-Disaster inflicting all 3 DoTs with a cooldown would help alleviate the issue of being nigh useless on adds that needs to die fast AND solve the issue of Tri-Disaster being terrible. Solid idea and the best one of his post.

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Originally Posted by Ardan

High potency DoT under a certain percentage and Tri-Disaster inflicting all three main DoTs under a timer are both solid ideas. Sliders for size wouldn't work because Egi have their own hit box. Changing their size means altering their hit box. Their compact size is fine.

This post has, (in my opinion) two solid ideas.

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The slider is pure cosmetic. Only the owner of the pet would see it as being larger. All other players and mechanics would continue to function as is. This is for the players who just want a bigger egi and to keep it from bothering other people.

Thank you guys for your feed back!

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Originally Posted by Dwill

I think Tri-Disaster inflicting all 3 DoTs with a cooldown would help alleviate the issue of being nigh useless on adds that needs to die fast AND solve the issue of Tri-Disaster being terrible. Solid idea and the best one of his post.

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DWILL!!! You are to approve of all my ideas! Wait till I get my Ein's 3.0 Fantasy Spell Draft 2014 thread going! I expect a full report from you and exstal and Akiza : )

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Originally Posted by Ardan

High potency DoT under a certain percentage and Tri-Disaster inflicting all three main DoTs under a timer are both solid ideas. Sliders for size wouldn't work because Egi have their own hit box. Changing their size means altering their hit box. Their compact size is fine.

This post has, (in my opinion) two solid ideas.

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Pending the fate of aetherflow in 3.0 (another stack if per new possible level cap?), I'd love to see something like this for Fester. Lower the %age an npc, the higher the potency, or even a higher chance (perhaps 100% @2%) for crit's to land.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

I think Tri-Disaster inflicting all 3 DoTs with a cooldown would help alleviate the issue of being nigh useless on adds that needs to die fast AND solve the issue of Tri-Disaster being terrible. Solid idea and the best one of his post.

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Would probably have to make it single target, or make it on a longer cooldown of around 2 minutes just to not steal Bane's thunder.

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Originally Posted by Ardan

Would probably have to make it single target, or make it on a longer cooldown of around 2 minutes just to not steal Bane's thunder.

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Make Aetherflow like the warlock's Soulburn ability in WoW, so that when activated, it adds additional effects to your spells. Then you could collapse Bane into tridisaster, and rengineer Bane into a better AoE skill.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Make Aetherflow like the warlock's Soulburn ability in WoW, so that when activated, it adds additional effects to your spells. Then you could collapse Bane into tridisaster, and rengineer Bane into something else.

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Run Delily! Run! They are going to get you! This is Final Fantasy! Not wow how dare, DARE I SAY! you want our beloved Summoner class to be more like one from that game!


But yeah my idea for tridisater was a single target QoL change to help with ramp up. Needs a long enough timer to not be abused. But would work great with bane for cleave fights.

Blizz 2 sucks. 2.5 recast with 50 potency 20pot/sec. AOE fights, 5 or more targets, is our weakness.

Something Like -Shadow Flare II; 9 sec channel with 75 potency per tick and a high MP cost-25pot/sec could help up with AOE fights but not bring the class into the AOE specialty of BLM.

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Originally Posted by Einheri

Run Delily! Run! They are going to get you! This is Final Fantasy! Not wow how dare, DARE I SAY! you want our beloved Summoner class to be more like one from that game!

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You mean a dpsing caster machine? Yes plz! Who needs downtime anyways? XD

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Originally Posted by Senliten

You mean a dpsing caster machine? Yes plz! Who needs downtime anyways? XD

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We just need Life Tap and Drain Life and we're there.

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Originally Posted by Einheri

Run Delily! Run! They are going to get you! This is Final Fantasy! Not wow how dare, DARE I SAY! you want our beloved Summoner class to be more like one from that game!

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Aww!! >.< /em "Run away"

In all serious, my two biggest beefs with the class are that we don't have a real CC option (I would LOVE to get sleep from THM), and as Dwill pointed out, we don't have a good burst AoE ability to get rid of adds. I mean, sure Quickcasting Tridisaster and run until the mobs tether works, but it's not always the best choice..

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Originally Posted by Ardan

Would probably have to make it single target, or make it on a longer cooldown of around 2 minutes just to not steal Bane's thunder.

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Of course this would have to be single target. An AoE like this would be way too strong and knowing Square Enix, they would put a 5-6 minutes CD on a skill like that were it ever an AoE.

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Originally Posted by Senliten

Pending the fate of aetherflow in 3.0 (another stack if per new possible level cap?), I'd love to see something like this for Fester. Lower the %age an npc, the higher the potency, or even a higher chance (perhaps 100% @2%) for crit's to land.

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I really hope Square Enix is aware that we don't need more Aetherflow stacks. If it gets any kind of change, it should be a trait that buffs the MP return for Summoners.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Aww!! >.< /em "Run away"

In all serious, my two biggest beefs with the class are that we don't have a real CC option (I would LOVE to get sleep from THM), and as Dwill pointed out, we don't have a good burst AoE ability to get rid of adds. I mean, sure Quickcasting Tridisaster and run until the mobs tether works, but it's not always the best choice..

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And the sad thing is that this isn't even bursting, it's just setting up other jobs' burst.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Make Aetherflow like the warlock's Soulburn ability in WoW, so that when activated, it adds additional effects to your spells. Then you could collapse Bane into tridisaster, and rengineer Bane into a better AoE skill.

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I think Aetherflow is fine as it is. The way to better AoE is by making Tri-Disaster not be a total disaster of a skill.

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Originally Posted by Einheri

DWILL!!! You are to approve of all my ideas! Wait till I get my Ein's 3.0 Fantasy Spell Draft 2014 thread going! I expect a full report from you and exstal and Akiza :

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You can be sure I will be commenting on all the Summoner changes comes 3.0!

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Originally Posted by Delily

Aww!! >.< /em "Run away"

In all serious, my two biggest beefs with the class are that we don't have a real CC option (I would LOVE to get sleep from THM), and as Dwill pointed out, we don't have a good burst AoE ability to get rid of adds. I mean, sure Quickcasting Tridisaster and run until the mobs tether works, but it's not always the best choice..

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Shiva and Garuda Puff Puff attack. Puts all male characters into a daze.http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...psec58bb79.png

Bam CC there you go!

I can't help you with the burst. I mean then why bring any one else?

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Originally Posted by Delily

We just need Life Tap and Drain Life and we're there.

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Coming to us in the form of a trait point allocation system. Want a one shot complete hp/mp heal every few seconds (obviously would be changed to a longer cooldown just cause of the op cries) Then just trait everything into Energy Siphon and watch those number soar.....
Nah but really, I'd die happy if they added a new trait system with the expansion. Kinda like alternate advancements ala EQ. Framework is there thanks to how PvP traits/skills work, just it would be like the previous version before the rehaul.

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Originally Posted by Senliten

Coming to us in the form of a trait point allocation system. Want a one shot complete hp/mp heal every three seconds (obviously would be changed to a longer cooldown just cause of the op cries) Then just trait everything into Energy Siphon and watch those number soar.....
Nah but really, I'd die happy if they added a new trait system with the expansion. Kinda like alternate advancements ala EQ. Framework is there thanks to how PvP traits/skills work, just it would be like the previous version before the rehaul.

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SE needs to fix bonus traits all around. They are all pretty useless besides crit. Det it just crappy atk/spl power may as well just have a few more main stat. "No one" wanst skill/spell speed. Does any one seek piety? It sorta just taken as it comes right? Parry is mediocre at best.

Get rid of the stat bonus allocation and add a trait line to specialize in.
Recast- chance for a weaker second attack/heal
Splash- Chance for a small damage/heal to effect those near target
Crit- More Crits
Crit Power- Bigger crits
Determination- +Mitigation Tank stat!
Avoidance- What I just said. Mc Hammer Tank stat!
Regenerate-Hastens Mana/Tp regen

Dungeons/Raids can drop armor with your main stats + Materia slots how many based on ilvl that a crafter can creat using PVE content drops or soul binding, so every one can have fun! Now you can customize your play style! S T Y L E!

Tri-Disaster, remove bind add contagion effect.

Retool Garuda to AoE pet
Retool Ifrit to Single Target pet
Retool Titan to a better emergency tank mainly add a provoke type attack.

Mikeylikesit idea

Add Shiva Egi as a cinematic type spell where her Diamond Dust causes a frozen effect with damage.
Add Leviathan Egi as a cinematic type spell where it's Tidal Wave cause a push back with damage.
Add Ramuh Egi as a cinematic type spell where his Judgement Bolt cause paralyze with damage.

Summoner specific Limit Break; LB1 - Odin Egi (Gungnir), LB2 - Alexander Egi (Judgement), LB3 - Bahamut Egi (Mega-Flare)

Remove stun and silence from all pets!

Add an appearance change when you use spur to increase size and design.