What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I don't believe they would need to deny their own existence to acknowledge a past wrongdoing. Many of us are descended from murderers and worse. Many countries were built upon foundations of blood and sorrow. Does acknowledging the wrongdoings of our forebears mean we must deny the value in our own lives?

Sometimes it isn't even a case of looking to call someone out. Sometimes one simply needs to acknowledge wrong was done and go on with their lives afterward. What's done is done, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth a moment of reflection. This is especially true in the case of past atrocities, whether or not they in any way impact people of the modern age. To disregard them is to risk repeating them one day.

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I agree, which is why in terms of story it would've been redundant or perhaps even more of a dilemma if it tried to deep focus on Venat's actions whether it be right or wrong. Which wasnt the whole point behind the MSQ anyway, it was about stopping the Final Days. At the very least the game does give you the option to give your own opinion of the matter in that one part where you discussed about the Ancients with the Watcher in Mare. It's also very telling that due to the experiences with the Ancient's trying to do everything without regard of other people (including Venat) is why we nowadays get portions of a story with the Scions having to consider and discuss their plan of actions with other groups of people like Garlemald or the people of Norvrandt rather than just not caring and do whatever the hell he want.

And with the way the game already gives a sympathetic light towards Emet and his actions and a lot of other characters for that matter, its no brainer why Venat would also get a pass as well.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

True, but I think its more so that she realizes as well as the audience that the Ancients's way of life and civilization of eternal paradise would eventually be its downfall, because of Meteion's report confirming that many other civilizations strived for the same paradise as they did but wound up destroyed. The game shows to us the flaws in their system through both the MSQ and quests in Elpis and Dream Amaraout. There's also the factor that the WoL being there and the events and experiences he/she shared to Venat privately convinced her there was some worth and hope for the star's future due to mankind having to learn to adapt and grow from what we consider the everyday struggles of life. Most of these stories in jrpgs are always written in criticism of the concept of a "utopia" so its most likely the reason why the writers wanted to make Venat come off that way as a Prometheus like figure; which goes with both her character in this game and in FFXII where the Venat the Occurria rebelled against her own kind to give mankind true freedom.

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The Nibirun are not a good parallel. Not only did they value different things than the Ancients, they were also shown to be open to reason in the end. As for the Sundered not being on that path, we could easily end up as the civilisation in the Dead Ends too. We are certainly more prone to things like war and over using resources than the Ancients were.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I think the reason why it doesnt get called out because it would acknowledge the paradoxical ethics of mankind. In which villians actively trying to destroy your life is considered wrong but if the Scions criticized Venat/Hydaelyn for her actions then they would have to deny their own existence. Ilberd, Thordan, Emet-Selch etc where all active antagonists wanting to kill us so of course they are the villians but to them we arent worth as living beings because they value something greater (which was the theme behind Shadowbringers and Emet-Selch). And the event of the Sundering happened millenia ago by the time of the game so there was no point to judge Hydaeleyn for her actions because its the whole crux for why we exist in the first place.

Because seriously how would you even respond to this?

"How dare you do this thing to your people which created our existence!" Should we just accept that the Ascians are in the right all along and that we dont mean anything?

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I would have taken a "This is the world we have no so we will fight for it and our lives, but Venat was still wrong to do what she did to an entire people" approach. Basically acknowledging her actions instead of just comforting her and pretending she's nothing but love and life. We only have the option to comfort her. I would have liked to call her out.

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Originally Posted by Nayukhuut

I would have taken a "This is the world we have no so we will fight for it and our lives, but Venat was still wrong to do what she did to an entire people" approach. Basically acknowledging her actions instead of just comforting her and pretending she's nothing but love and life. We only have the option to comfort her. I would have liked to call her out.

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This is basically the root issue with the EW launch story imo. There's plenty of other stumbling blocks that people can point at, but the single inability to say "What Venat did was wrong/horrible/atrocious/evil and she should have taken different actions." basically poisons quite a bit of the foundational lore of the game. I wouldn't be surprised if a decent number of people want to not be around most of the Scions any more explicitly because they didn't call her out.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

This is basically the root issue with the EW launch story imo. There's plenty of other stumbling blocks that people can point at, but the single inability to say "What Venat did was wrong/horrible/atrocious/evil and she should have taken different actions." basically poisons quite a bit of the foundational lore of the game. I wouldn't be surprised if a decent number of people want to not be around most of the Scions any more explicitly because they didn't call her out.

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That is exactly what soured me on the Scions. Us, and them, keep going around spouting morals we no longer agree on. We went from free will is good and no one is beyond hope, to free will is mostly good and only some people are worth saving. And then they keep spouting the same tired old lines and pretending everyone matters all the same. All which means nothing when when they are not willing to call out when the people on their side commit atrocities too.

I feel like a hypocrite as I go through the story now, and I hate it.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Except they can't, and it's never been shown nor hinted they could. For one thing, the entire Elpis story never would've happened if Emet-Selch could've just read our past as soon as we arrived, and he's grouchy and suspicious enough that he would've done it.

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Watch the video linked for the quest.
The Echo gives people different abilities and it's Venat's unique flavor of it that allows sight to the past. It's never casually stated all Ancients visit the past. The echo varies. That's why the Ancients have specialities. Venat's echo permeates followers of the Twelve, that doesn't mean it was an every day occurrence in Elpis. Finally pay attention to the rules-- the subject has to remember and the main people that would need to be convinced are memory wiped. It also could be etched into the Aether but that is shaky on its own not to mention Kairos alters the Aether.

Not to mention, as someone else noted, Venat basically explains. She does tell the Twelve, obviously. She explains that she is going to develop a force. But her goal was to use Hermes's insights rather than instigate chaos.

What I still don't get is why there couldn't be a timeline split offering the Ancients even a chance of a better future, even if it's not definitive, or we never truly know for sure - just add in something that knocks the time loop off a fraction and we get a hint that something has changed, or suggests, for example, one of the Ancients wound up knowing more than they let on about what we had to say and managed to do something about it. It didn't even have to be explicit, just a "do you think...?" thrown in there somewhere. There's literally an alternate timeline where we're dead and the world has been reduced to chaos that G'raha managed to unmake and he still exists, so why even the possibility of a better outcome was denied to them is beyond my comprehension. It's not even a case of whether or not you like or sympathise with the Ancients, it's reconciling the writing and the moral standards of the characters with everything they've made a point of emphasising before so it doesn't hideously contradict itself.

You could argue "but Pandaemonium!"... but they could have just stuck it even right there at the end of the raid storyline. Have Themis and Eric be the potential catalyst behind it, which thematically would actually be a great fit because in Eric you actually have someone who overcame loss, isolation, despair and abuse and faced up to his fears in his father and his mother. It was right there, and in an expansion that emphasises life and hope and triumph in the face of hopelessness and adversity, it would have felt a lot more uplifting and fitting than handwaving everything they wound up going through with "welp, sucks to be them lol" while going out of our way to save everyone else we meet along the way who didn't need to make way for our survival, and make the WoL look less like a self-involved plank.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Lil bro yapping about no evidence when the Ancients can just casually peer into the past with the echo.

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Actually you don't know what you're talking about but that's okay..most people popping off about endwalker don't.

The "glimpsing the past" version of the Echo is the only one we've ever actually seen anyone using in the MSQ proper, and while it's suggested we have a particularly keen ability to do so (Krile mentions that the shared vision of what Estinien experienced back in Garlemald wasn't quite as clear as ours), there's nothing that suggests it's a rare trait.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

At the very least the game does give you the option to give your own opinion of the matter in that one part where you discussed about the Ancients with the Watcher in Mare.

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As far as the Omega side quest is concerned and the brief bit of push back allowed to relay one's thoughts on the Ancients...that'd be more of a compromise if it were put in the actual MSQ and involved the main party in it rather than have it hidden away in a quest chain that many players simply aren't going to do due to being entirely optional. Furthermore the game continues to fluff her up and present what she did via the codex and questionable English localisation decisions as a necessary act, even skewing her role to be more important than it was and making other entries like Zodiark's all about her, while presenting Ascians more matter-of-factly.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

It's also very telling that due to the experiences with the Ancient's trying to do everything without regard of other people (including Venat) is why we nowadays get portions of a story with the Scions having to consider and discuss their plan of actions with other groups of people like Garlemald or the people of Norvrandt rather than just not caring and do whatever the hell he want.

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...you mean exactly how the Ancients operated? The Scions are simply approximating the way the Ancients went about things, which is research and debate.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

And with the way the game already gives a sympathetic light towards Emet and his actions and a lot of other characters for that matter, its no brainer why Venat would also get a pass as well.

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That was back in Shadowbringers and involved Emet-Selch being shown to be an understandably tragic figure who had witnessed his entire civilisation and practically every person he had ever known wiped out. He never truly gets a 'pass', though since the game bends over backwards to hold him accountable for his actions and has multiple moments where the Scions confront him over the consequences of his actions.

Venat gets barely anything resembling that and as mentioned earlier, is propped up to a ridiculous degree and even falsely credited for things that aren't even her own doing. Some excellent examples of that can be found within the following thread:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5984120

For example, this is the French localisation which tracks closely to the Japanese version:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...082&height=676

"Hydaelyn, or rather Venat, could perhaps help us out. After all, she was there when Zodiark was summoned to fight against the Final Days. She was also the one who kept him alive to protect us."

This, however, is the English variant which mysteriously credits Hydaelyn for everything with no acknowledgement of Zodiark's contributions:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...748&height=676

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

The Echo gives people different abilities and it's Venat's unique flavor of it that allows sight to the past.

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We know at the minimum our character as a shard of Azem and former member of the Convocation also possesses the ability to see the past, something that the player character has accomplished a great many times already through the course of the story.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

The "glimpsing the past" version of the Echo is the only one we've ever actually seen anyone using in the MSQ proper, and while it's suggested we have a particularly keen ability to do so (Krile mentions that the shared vision of what Estinien experienced back in Garlemald wasn't quite as clear as ours), there's nothing that suggests it's a rare trait.

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There's nothing in the cutscene that was linked or in thr game that indicates Ancient's "casually view the past". In fact it's the opposite, the game is full of evidence from Hythlodeus statements to Fordola to Lahabrea that the Echo can be used in many different ways.

Even if the link did prove that, even if all the Ancients did it, the rules of peering into the past wouldn't work on Hythlodeus and Emet because it's not in their memory. So you'd have two conflicting versions of events happening, plus an Aether altering element in the mix with Kairos.

Also no it isn't the "only way we have seen anyone use it". Why are people liking these posts??? Zenos literally used it to body hop and its discussed at length. Fordola used it to anticipate movements in combat. The echo is not exclusively a past viewing mechanism-- it's a power derived from the Ancients that allowed them to manipulate reality. But as Hytholdeus tells us, they have all kinds of specific talents.

If it's so obvious that all the Ancient's casually view rhe past, then where is the in game scene confirming that. Does anyone other than Venat talk about it? Does Venat tell us it's casually done? She tells us how she uses it and teaches us..something that then goes down the line of her followers.

The Echo has been shown to grant certain common powers alongside more specific ones. One such example would be the ability to understand the words spoken by those who share no language. It is worth noting we have seen multiple individuals peer into the past, although I can't say for certain if this is a power common to all or if it's simply something ancients and their fragments were likely to possess. What we do know is we've seen several characters utilize it at various points. It's also possible to peer into the past of a place or object, but we are told it becomes less reliable as time passes.

Both comprehension of speech and viewing a subject's past operate via resonance of the souls. Gleaning information about a place or thing instead functions by reading residual aether, as explained by Venat in Elpis. I might note the wording used during the explanation implies this is indeed a trait common to ancients in general.

Literally every Warrior of Darkness upon meeting the WoL and Scions in HW at the Gnath Colony in Dravnian Forelands have echo visions seeing our past, and know that we had an echo vision seeing theirs.

Arenvald remarks on seeing Fordola's past, and uses it to try and build common ground with her.

Fordola sees the past of literally everyone who has an emotion in or near her cell. Most notably the entirety of the WoL's up to that point in time.

Venat's whole life could be viewed using it by any Ancient capable of controlling their Echo. They would be able to see her meet the WoL. WoL's tea meeting with her, Emet, and Hyth. The excursion into Ktsis. And then the conversations she had with the WoL after Ktsis. Not too mention all of the eye witness accounts of her entering, the facility being put on lockdown, Hades remarking on having to team up and do party roles etc..

This has been pointed out to be one of the biggest gaping plot holes in all of 6.0. Many times before. There's no real way to deny it.

Venat does make a comment about history being preserved, but it's unclear if that's a translation issue (if she is talking about a formal process in which Ancient's record history that seems very out of place, versus talking about something maybe she does on her own) or meant to be taken literally. If history is constantly being analyzed and recorded, why does no one except the line of Venat use the Echo as such? Why didn't someone other than Venat solve the Final Days without her help? Why didn't Emet figure out who we are...twice...by ignoring our pasts in the First and in Elpis?

Why is the ever any conflict at all in the game if history can just be looked into on a whim?

And I realize that the MSQ trivializes it but the MSQ is current day and all of those people are in Venat's circle.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Why didn't Emet figure out who we are...twice...by ignoring our pasts in the First and in Elpis?

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Because everyone else who knew the truth was either dead, memory-wiped by Kairos, or returned to their own place in the timeline.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Why didn't Emet figure out who we are...twice...by ignoring our pasts in the First and in Elpis?

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The trip to Elpis hadn't yet happened when first the WoL met Emet-Selch on the First, and he in turn had no way of recalling them due to having had his memories purged by Kairos. The second instance of meeting Emet-Selch occurred while he was still whole and choosing to abide by his people's societal norms, which meant not randomly looking into the minds of others. Unlike the WoL, the ancients had full control of their Echo.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Why is the ever any conflict at all in the game if history can just be looked into on a whim?

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Because the Echo is extremely rare. Everyone technically has it, but very few actually awaken it during their mortal lifetime. Plus it would be all kinds of boring from a narrative perspective. You could maybe get away with that once or twice if you handled it well, but I don't think people would be too keen on seeing it happen often.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Because everyone else who knew the truth was either dead, memory-wiped by Kairos, or returned to their own place in the timeline.



The trip to Elpis hadn't yet happened when first the WoL met Emet-Selch on the First, and he in turn had no way of recalling them due to having had his memories purged by Kairos. The second instance of meeting Emet-Selch occurred while he was still whole and choosing to abide by his people's societal norms, which meant not randomly looking into the minds of others. Unlike the WoL, the ancients had full control of their Echo.



Because the Echo is extremely rare. Everyone technically has it, but very few actually awaken it during their mortal lifetime. Plus it would be all kinds of boring from a narrative perspective. You could maybe get away with that once or twice if you handled it well, but I don't think people would be too keen on seeing it happen often.

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That's not how the rules work. Venat tells us you need the subject to recall or you can view it etched into the Aether, albeit it is unreliable. My point being the trip may not have happened but technically the events are "preserved" according to the rules unless you want to say it was one of those events prone to waning or perhaps Kairos affected it (as operates using Aether waves). But in that case why don't the rules apply to the events in the past well? Or can Venat/ whoever only pull an instance of the Kairos event only when convenient for EW critics?

The fact is it is a flavor of Venat using the echo. It's unclear whether it's common knowledge or even how reliable it is to begin with. Venat did clue certain people into the fold and they weren't able to stop the reaction of summoning Zodiark. When faced with the choice of a tempered future she gambled and sundered the world. Very simple.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

That's not how the rules work. Venat tells us you need the subject to recall or you can view it etched into the Aether, albeit it is unreliable. My point being the trip may not have happened but technically the events are "preserved" according to the rules unless you want to say it was one of those events prone to waning or perhaps Kairos affected it (as operates using Aether waves). But in that case why don't the rules apply to the events in the past well? Or can Venat/ whoever only pull an instance of the Kairos event only when convenient for EW critics?

The fact is it is a flavor of Venat using the echo. It's unclear whether it's common knowledge or even how reliable it is to begin with. Venat did clue certain people into the fold and they weren't able to stop the reaction of summoning Zodiark. When faced with the choice of a tempered future she gambled and sundered the world. Very simple.

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Do you think aether ignores the flow of time? Because it doesn't. An experience cannot be etched into aether if it has never occurred, just like it can't dwell in someone's memories. The trip to the First occurred earlier in the WoL's personal timeline than their trip to Elpis, meaning Elpis and its events would have no bearing whatsoever on that leg of their journey.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Venat did clue certain people into the fold and they weren't able to stop the reaction of summoning Zodiark. When faced with the choice of a tempered future she gambled and sundered the world. Very simple.

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We're told quite explicitly she withheld the truth even from her closest followers.

I don't understand your question. Whether or not the trip occurred, the past could still be viewed in terms of Hermes plotting and Meteion flying off multiple times. If anything you can't really rely on the post Elpis visit instance at all because as we know, that instance cannot directly change history. The fact is the goal posts just continue moving because first it was "Venat should have told someone" then it was "Ancients casually view the past"..now here we are.

So please explain again how in the original timeline, Venat could have done better given that she did tell certain people and they failed. How could she have done better in post visit instance when it can't affect history? Where is the venat plot hole?

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I don't understand your question. Whether or not the trip occurred, the past could still be viewed in terms of Hermes plotting and Meteion flying off multiple times. If anything you can't really rely on the post Elpis visit instance at all because as we know, that instance cannot directly change history. The fact is the goal posts just continue moving because first it was "Venat should have told someone" then it was "Ancients casually view the past"..now here we are.

So no

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You're the one moving the goalposts here.

My question was simple:
Do you believe aether ignores the flow of time? As in, do you believe the Echo could be used to see in a character's soul/aether events that version of them hadn't yet experienced? Because this is effectively what you were claiming in the post I asked my question in reply to, and it does not make sense.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

You're the one moving the goalposts here. You're also going out of your way to not make sense, from what I can tell.

For example, you claim the Emet-Selch the WoL met on the First should have been able to glean both their identity and experiences they hadn't yet. In what way does this make sense? Like I said, time is linear. In Shadowbringers the WoL had not yet been to Elpis, even if a different version of them might have in a previous cycle of this potential bootstrap paradox. In other words, there's nothing there for anyone to pick up on.

My question was simple:
Do you believe aether ignores the flow of time? As in, do you believe the Echo could be used to see in a character's soul/aether events that version of them hadn't yet experienced? Because, and I reiterate, time is linear.

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Yes it is technically true he could not viewed our memories because the trip had not yet happened yet. Are you happy? Please address the Venat plot hole. Tbh it was an off the cuff comment I just didn't think much about because the idea Ancient's casually view the past is wrong.

Ancients casually use the Echo which is revealed in multiple instances from multiple sources to be a versatile power.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I don't understand your question. Whether or not the trip occurred, the past could still be viewed in terms of Hermes plotting and Meteion flying off multiple times. If anything you can't really rely on the post Elpis visit instance at all because as we know, that instance cannot directly change history. The fact is the goal posts just continue moving because first it was "Venat should have told someone" then it was "Ancients casually view the past"..now here we are.

So no

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Totally right. People tend to forget that before we go to elpis. On the first when we interact with what's left of Elidibus. He actually mentions remembering we were there on elpis.

So saying that, you are correct. We couldn't change history but from him remembering sets it up for us actually being a part of what unfolded there. They reused this as well during panda raid story.

Also if you wonder had we not taken the trip. Could hythlodaeus and emet and venat stumbled upon what Hermes was doing. Or would have hermes plans gone unnoticed and the cataclysmic events happen far sooner then they did.

Like we know venat and them are wicked smart but just how smart. Something to think on.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

You're the one moving the goalposts here.

My question was simple:
Do you believe aether ignores the flow of time? As in, do you believe the Echo could be used to see in a character's soul/aether events that version of them hadn't yet experienced? Because this is effectively what you were claiming in the post I asked my question in reply to, and it does not make sense.

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Actually no. It's been setup for awhile now that the echo let's you see a person's past. Although it's not easily controlled to allow you to do so. As far as it goes. Not use in clairvoyance of seeing ones future.

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

Totally right. People tend to forget that before we go to elpis. On the first when we interact with what's left of Elidibus. He actually mentions remembering we were there on elpis.

So saying that, you are correct. We couldn't change history but from him remembering sets it up for us actually being a part of what unfolded there. They reused this as well during panda raid story.

Also if you wonder had we not taken the trip. Could hythlodaeus and emet and venat stumbled upon what Hermes was doing. Or would have hermes plans gone unnoticed and the cataclysmic events happen far sooner then they did.

Like we know venat and them are wicked smart but just how smart. Something to think on.

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The only thing it is unclear if he's referring to seeing Azem us or something or confirming the events of the Ew trip where we spoil the future. My point is that with or without the WoL being in Elpis there's still past to view and investigate because the original timeline, no matter what, leads to Meteion and the final days.

The reason I say this is because the WoL may have been in original Elpis but they don't remember it. So there's something going on there.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Yes it is technically true he could not viewed our memories because the trip had not yet happened yet. Are you happy? Please address the Venat plot hole.

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The Pandaemonium raid is canon. The post-Elpis visit indeed happened. Additionally, I would note you're under a bit of a misapprehension regarding whether or not the WoL could affect change during their initial visit. They were told by Elidibus they'd be little more than a shade and thus unable to affect things, but Emet-Selch remedied this problem. They were granted substance and presence, and so they gained the ability to interact with the world of the past in a way Elidibus had no way of knowing would occur. I also recall there being a warning they might not have a time to return to in the event they did somehow find a way to alter things.

As for Venat; she could simply have chosen to try and save her people. Instead, she took to heart the future she'd been told about and decided she'd aim for it instead. The nature of this particular bootstrap paradox precludes the possibility of the WoL having any real choice in matters, but it does not strip agency from Venat. There were other options available to her. This is the crux of the matter. If she had agency, which as of current writing we know she did, then she chose to stay the course despite having been granted a complete picture of future events by the WoL. She had full foreknowledge of the suffering her decision would bring, of what the Ascians would ultimately become and do, and of just how horrible the sundered would be toward one another.

For clarity: a bootstrap paradox is a situation wherein you've a repeating cycle sustained by time travel that has no defined beginning or end. Venat cannot know the WoL's specific future and thus decide to try and reach it without first being told it, and in turn the WoL would not exist, let alone travel back to Elpis, in the event Venat never gained this knowledge and thus enacted the sundering. You might also call this a predestination paradox. Where this differs from your typical example is one of the participants being allowed to maintain their agency, while the other is not.

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

Actually no. It's been setup for awhile now that the echo let's you see a person's past. Although it's not easily controlled to allow you to do so. As far as it goes. Not use in clairvoyance of seeing ones future.

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I... didn't even remotely imply it can? The poster I was replying to was claiming the WoL's trip to Elips somehow meant Emet-Selch should've been able to see it in their aether when they met on the First, which makes no sense. They have since recanted that claim.

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

Actually no. It's been setup for awhile now that the echo let's you see a person's past. Although it's not easily controlled to allow you to do so. As far as it goes. Not use in clairvoyance of seeing ones future.

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Fordola uses it for clairvoyance actually but it's limited and why I'm not arguing that Emet could have viewed our Elpis trip.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The Pandaemonium raid is canon. The post-Elpis visit indeed happened. Additionally, I would note you're under a bit of a misapprehension regarding whether or not the WoL could affect change during their initial visit. They were told by Elidibus they'd be little more than a shade and thus unable to affect things, but Emet-Selch remedied this problem. They were granted substance and presence, and so they gained the ability to interact with the world of the past in a way Elidibus had no way of knowing would occur.

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I know it happened. But it's not clear whether it was an exact replication of what happened originally or a deviant timeline. As far as Emet "remedying the problem" I don't buy that. I think the entire point of it is that no matter what happens, our actions in the Elpis wouldn't change the course of history ie stop the final days from occurring. Hence why despite what Emet did, it still happened.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

As for Venat; she could simply have chosen to try and save her people. Instead, she took to heart the future she'd been told about and decided she'd aim for it instead.

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She did try and she failed.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I know it happened. But it's not clear whether it was an exact replication of what happened originally or a deviant timeline. As far as Emet "remedying the problem" I don't buy that. I think the entire point of it is that no matter what happens, our actions in the Elpis wouldn't change the course of history ie stop the final days from occurring. Hence why despite what Emet did, it still happened.

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Nowhere in anything pertaining to Pandaemonium is it remotely implied there's a tangential timeline at play. Quite to the contrary; we are explicitly in the same Elpis for the portion of the story taking place there.

Now, here's a question:
If the WoL was unable to effect change in Elpis, how exactly is it they are directly responsible for morbols? And no, I'm not joking. That's a thing you can do while you're there, and the game makes it super apparent their continued existence in the modern world is entirely your fault. There's also the matter of the WoL having say in what traits behemoths have.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

She did try and she failed.

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The writers make it clear that she at no point divulged what she knew of Meteion or the world's future to her people.

I should also point out Emet-Selch only made it through the sundering intact because she intentionally left a crack in it with full expectation he would recognize it and save himself. This action was deliberately carried out with the intent of facilitating the timeline she'd had described to her by the Warrior of Light. Noting of course she possessed full knowledge of what Emet-Selch and his fellow Ascians would become in time, their objectives, and the untold deaths they would cause in the pursuit of those objectives.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Nowhere in anything pertaining to Pandaemonium is it remotely implied there's a tangential timeline at play. Quite to the contrary; we are explicitly in the same Elpis for the portion of the story taking place there.

Now, here's a question:
If the WoL was unable to effect change in Elpis, how exactly is it they are directly responsible for morbols? And no, I'm not joking. That's a thing you can do while you're there, and the game makes it super apparent their continued existence in the modern world is entirely your fault. There's also the matter of the WoL having say in what traits behemoths have.



The writers make it clear that she at no point divulged what she knew of Meteion or the world's future to her people.

I should also point out Emet-Selch only made it through the sundering intact because she intentionally left a crack in it with full expectation he would recognize it and save himself. This action was deliberately carried out with the intent of facilitating the timeline she'd had described to her by the Warrior of Light. Noting of course she possessed full knowledge of what Emet-Selch and his fellow Ascians would become in time, their objectives, and the untold deaths they would cause in the pursuit of those objectives.

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If our Elpis visit is what actually happened in the original time then I don't understand your original argument that Emet couldn't have gleaned our past from someone who saw us or the Aether. His memories were wiped and we are clearly a reincarnation but surely since it's so casual he could find it from some other subject or the Aether? And then what about everyone else who were investigating the final days? I've already asked why is Venat the single person who can solve the mystery? Bc you want to poke holes in EW or?

Her playing games with Emet doesn't prove anything. The point is she explicitly tells us she's going to bring people I to the fold and I assume she does (the Twelve??) but whatever she does fails because she can't stop the Zodiark solution...

Emet also says "our solutions would not have brought mankind this far". So Venat has those solutions because why???

Just gonna throw out there that Venat directly shows the WoL how she could have shown the convocation what happened. By just going to the physical places where events occurred she can look into the past and bring others with the Echo with her into the vision. Theoretically, other convocation members could do this without her help, but the point stands that the solution is painted very clearly right in front of us as players.

Also just gotta say that Emet not caring to learn what he forgot seems rather out of character.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

If our Elpis visit is what actually happened in the original time then I don't understand your original argument that Emet couldn't have gleaned our past from someone who saw us or the Aether. His memories were wiped and we are clearly a reincarnation but surely since it's so casual he could find it from some other subject or the Aether? And then what about everyone else who were investigating the final days? I've already asked why is Venat the single person who can solve the mystery? Bc you want to poke holes in EW or?

Her playing games with Emet doesn't prove anything. The point is she explicitly tells us she's going to bring people I to the fold and I assume she does (the Twelve??) but whatever she does fails because she can't stop the Zodiark solution...

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The WoL is a fragment of Azem, not a fragment of a different version of themselves from another timeline. The events of Elpis would not be present anywhere in their being if they themselves had not been there. It's as simple as that. "Our" WoL had no involvement with Elpis or its events until the exact moment they went there, not until.

The people investigating the Final Days were lacking a significant amount of information as to its true nature. They did not know about Meteion because Venat never told them. They completely misdiagnosed the problem in their ignorance, although they were fortunate enough for Hermes and his contemporaries to wind up arriving at a workable, if temporary solution in the form of Zodiark. Through Zodiark they managed to treat the symptoms even if the cause remained unknown.

Or were you meaning people in the modern era trying to understand it? If so, then that answer is a lot more simple. Setting aside how rare the Echo actually is, there's a limit on how far back you can look with it. Modern Echo-users, no matter how skilled, would never be able to look far enough back to glean even one iota of useful information about the Final Days from the world.

"Playing games" with Emet-Selch, as you put it, was a key part of ensuring the timeline she sought would come to pass. It was only through the presence of the Ascians things could play out in a manner necessary for events to unfold as they'd been foretold. And for Venat "bringing others into the fold?" That does not necessarily mean she's told them the truth of it, particularly since we're told outright she never did. She recruited followers, yes, but none of them understood what was really happening.

Oh, right, I almost forgot:
Why Venat? Because that's the story. The story presents us with a situation wherein the rest of her people proved insufficient at correctly diagnosing the Final Days in the time they had. We can speculate all we want about whether or not they might've been able to figure it out in the span of however many millennia Zodiark bought them, but that's not the story we've been given. The story we've been given leaves Venat holding all the cards. She knew the future, she knew the true nature of the Final Days, and she even new Meteion's location courtesy of having tagged her before she escaped Etheriys' atmosphere.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The WoL is a fragment of Azem, not a fragment of a different version of themselves from another timeline. The events of Elpis would not be present anywhere in their being if they themselves had not been there. It's as simple as that. "Our" WoL had no involvement with Elpis or its events until the exact moment they went there, not until.[

The people investigating the Final Days were lacking a significant amount of information as to its true nature. They did not know about Meteion because Venat never told them. They completely misdiagnosed the problem in their ignorance, although they were fortunate enough for Hermes and his contemporaries to wind up arriving at a workable, if temporary solution in the form of Zodiark. Through Zodiark they managed to treat the symptoms even if the cause remained unknown.

Or were you meaning people in the modern era trying to understand it? If so, then that answer is a lot more simple. Setting aside how rare the Echo actually is, there's a limit on how far back you can look with it. Modern Echo-users, no matter how skilled, would never be able to look far enough back to glean even one iota of useful information about the Final Days.

"Playing games" with Emet-Selch, as you put it, was a key part of ensuring the timeline she sought would come to pass. It was only through the presence of the Ascians things could play out in a manner necessary for events to unfold as they'd been foretold. And for Venat "bringing others into the fold?" That does not necessarily mean she's told them the truth of it, particularly since we're told outright she never did. She recruited followers, yes, but none of them understood what was really happening.

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So we are going in circles because originally you implied that due to time linearity it is impossible for Emet to view our past, when that isn't true because as you are now acknowledging the events actually happened (it was just Azem not us) meaning Emet and all his contemporaries had myriad observers, artifacts, the Aether itself to call upon to determine Hermes misdeeds but whoops-- it doesn't work bc why?

As far as Venat didn't tell anyone... Assuming that is literal and true she still gives a motivation for that ie Hermes himself is the issue and WoL has told her the panic fuels the final days.

So what we have learned from this conversation is that "lol ancients casually viewed the past" is categorically false which is exactly what I was saying. As you are now saying it can't be used to solve all problems, everything hinges on Venat.

And regarding hinging on Venat I don't see how "Meteion did it" changes anything. Isn't the reason Hermes was sending Her because they couldn't do space travel? Venat was tracking Meteion but that doesn't mean she had direct access. And again how does enabling the villain make things better

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

So we are going in circles because originally you implied that due to time linearity it is impossible for Emet to view our past, when that isn't true because as you are now acknowledging the events actually happened (it was just Azem not us) meaning Emet and all his contemporaries had myriad observers, artifacts, the Aether itself to call upon to determine Hermes misdeeds but whoops-- it doesn't work bc why?

As far as Venat didn't tell anyone... Assuming that is literal and true she still gives a motivation for that ie Hermes himself is the issue and WoL has told her the panic fuels the final days.

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You do realize Azem wasn't in Elpis, right? Like, at all, at least not at the point in time in question. What I am saying is that the Warrior of Light never had any contact with Elpis until they actually went there, which therefore means Emet-Selch had no way of gleaning anything about it when they met on the First. You keep insisting Emet-Selch could somehow have gained this information, when this information wasn't yet there to gain.

Let me see if I can explain this another way. I do not have the same memories I will in ten years. Me ten years form now would have the memories from that ten year span. It's the same basic principle. The WoL, at the time they visited the First, has not yet been to Elpis. They did not have any memories of Elpis, and there was no way it could have left any sort of impression on their aether.

Besides, even if Azem had been there and this somehow influenced the WoL, it still wouldn't matter. Reincarnation requires you go through the lifestream and be cleansed, which means the memories of your previous life are stripped away.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I should also point out Emet-Selch only made it through the sundering intact because she intentionally left a crack in it with full expectation he would recognize it and save himself. This action was deliberately carried out with the intent of facilitating the timeline she'd had described to her by the Warrior of Light. Noting of course she possessed full knowledge of what Emet-Selch and his fellow Ascians would become in time, their objectives, and the untold deaths they would cause in the pursuit of those objectives.

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This is another one of those plot points that seem even stranger looking back. How does one actually "escape" the Sundering or leave a "crack" in something so total and devastating? How does one know where to be or how to exploit such a weakness? How was there any time for him to do so? Were the Ancients even capable of leaving their bodies at that stage? Did Zodiark grant them that power? How do the devs' wrists not ache from all this handwaving? Mysteries abound.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

That's not how the rules work. Venat tells us you need the subject to recall or you can view it etched into the Aether, albeit it is unreliable. My point being the trip may not have happened but technically the events are "preserved" according to the rules unless you want to say it was one of those events prone to waning or perhaps Kairos affected it (as operates using Aether waves). But in that case why don't the rules apply to the events in the past well? Or can Venat/ whoever only pull an instance of the Kairos event only when convenient for EW critics?

The fact is it is a flavor of Venat using the echo. It's unclear whether it's common knowledge or even how reliable it is to begin with. Venat did clue certain people into the fold and they weren't able to stop the reaction of summoning Zodiark. When faced with the choice of a tempered future she gambled and sundered the world. Very simple.

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If we follow your rules and assume the aether method is unreliable, then we do have a subject that can recall what happened. Venat herself. The Convocation could have easily had someone they trust inspect her memories to see what's up. That plus the physical evidence would have been proof. I highly doubt that Venat and Azem were the only people who could use the Echo to see into the past. I suspect it just wasn't done wholesale in Ancient society because peering into ones memories is quite an invasion of privacy.

Also, Venat didn't even try to stop Zodiark. She only started really doing anything after he was summoned. She knew she needed him to hold off Meteion.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Just gonna throw out there that Venat directly shows the WoL how she could have shown the convocation what happened. By just going to the physical places where events occurred she can look into the past and bring others with the Echo with her into the vision. Theoretically, other convocation members could do this without her help, but the point stands that the solution is painted very clearly right in front of us as players.

Also just gotta say that Emet not caring to learn what he forgot seems rather out of character.

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Imo knowing what happened isn't the solution. The solution is having the technology and willpower, when people in the past lacked one or both.

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Originally Posted by Nayukhuut

If we follow your rules and assume the aether method is unreliable, then we do have a subject that can recall what happened. Venat herself. The Convocation could have easily had someone they trust inspect her memories to see what's up. That plus the physical evidence would have been proof. I highly doubt that Venat and Azem were the only people who could use the Echo to see into the past. I suspect it just wasn't done wholesale in Ancient society because peering into ones memories is quite an invasion of privacy.

Also, Venat didn't even try to stop Zodiark. She only started really doing anything after he was summoned. She knew she needed him to hold off Meteion.

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To your first point all you're doing is strengthening my original argument which is that the onus isn't just on Venat. Other people could have done more.

To your second point, sundering is doing something imo.

I'm ar my post limit so i will summarize several points:

- It doesn't matter that the WoL doesn't have the memories to be gleaned. My point is that the experience happened in the past so artifacts, locations, observers, aether itself all act as sources to be drawn from. The end. Hyper focusing on the WoL is just a distraction.

- Regarding what Venat did prior to summoning, she had followers but its not covered a great deal because it doesn't matter. What matters is they failed and sundering was her big gamble in the face of panic and tempering. What's stupid is living in a mostly tempered world permanently.


- There's zero evidence that the Ancients were able to travel space as far as required, otherwise I'd imagine they have done it and Hermes never would have invented Meteion. In fact we have opposite evidence I've already cited. Simply knowing Meteion and Hermes are the villains isn't enough, period. While Venat telling people would've been cool, it doesn't prove any argument that the final days would have been averted.

-Also as far as other people investigating-- given the fact other people with memory in tact interacted with us investigating Meteion and Hermes, and given the onset of dynamis discovery, yes it's plausible memories would be investigated even if Venat never said a word.

- Finally spinning it like Venat could've done X y ans z when this is the finale to a 10 year story that you know very well wasn't written in advance is petty and a waste of time. We are lucky past Hydaelyn and Venat make any kind of sense at all.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

To your first point all you're doing is strengthening my original argument which is that the onus isn't just on Venat. Other people could have done more.

To your second point, sundering is doing something imo.

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Yeh, I didn't say she didn't do anything. I said she only did something AFTER Zodiark was summoned. That something was moronic, but she did indeed do something.

As for the first part, why would the Ancients casually just go around peering into people's minds? What leap at all would make them think "oh, the end of days are happening, I better start invading people's privacy"? The information was Venat's to give, and she was the only person on the planet with it. It was on her to share it.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Imo knowing what happened isn't the solution. The solution is having the technology and willpower, when people in the past lacked one or both.

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Hold up. They didn't have the information of exactly what was going on and still made a fully planned temporary solution that allowed the planet to survive for 12,000+ years in pieces; and you think they "lacked technology and willpower"?

That's a rather sizeable downplay there friend. Now imagine how much better their solution could have been if they actually had all the information from the start.

You know one of the most annoying parts of the Venat situation? The story could have easily been told where events happened exactly as they did, but Venat ended up more of a tragic figure trying to fight for her people than an outright murderer who knowingly doomed them. Unfortunately the game decided to have a disconnect in what it showed versus what it told. There are many simple changes that could have made the narrative make more sense and made Venat somewhat sympathetic, but they went with none of them.

One I can think of off the top of my head is have it so that she was fighting Zodiark because she didn't believe in more sacrifices, and then when her attack broke him into pieces it had the unforeseen consequence of doing it to the whole planet. That lets her fight for her cause, and then actually be tragic because she didn't inflict the pain she caused on purpose. Her installing gods to guide us would have made more sense as she would have been trying to fix a situation she created accidentally, but now it just comes across as a fanatic who won and is now telling us all how we should live.

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Originally Posted by Nayukhuut

You know one of the most annoying parts of the Venat situation? The story could have easily been told where events happened exactly as they did, but Venat ended up more of a tragic figure trying to fight for her people than an outright murderer who knowingly doomed them. Unfortunately the game decided to have a disconnect in what it showed versus what it told. There are many simple changes that could have made the narrative make more sense and made Venat somewhat sympathetic, but they went with none of them.

One I can think of off the top of my head is have it so that she was fighting Zodiark because she didn't believe in more sacrifices, and then when her attack broke him into pieces it had the unforeseen consequence of doing it to the whole planet. That lets her fight for her cause, and then actually be tragic because she didn't inflict the pain she caused on purpose. Her installing gods to guide us would have made more sense as she would have been trying to fix a situation she created accidentally, but now it just comes across as a fanatic who won and is now telling us all how we should live.

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Agreed. Ironically a lot of the work to give her any room for a pass is easy if she also has no memory of the WoL in Elpis. Her knowing the whole time is the entire problem. Making her unaware instantly changes the perception of every action she took. Does it make it all ok? Of course not, but it removes a key part which is her negative intentions.