This reference almost slipped past me...

I really hope so. It brings way more to sneaking around and getting to hard to access areas as lower levels. I am very tired of every game having the same exact agro mechanic of when you get close, you agro.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Per Fernhawles at this week's blog post:



Reference:
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...ism_Powder.png

and for sound:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...Silent_Oil.png

Does this mean there will once again be potions and spells that grant invisibility or anti-sound buffs to evade aggro?

Interested to learn more.

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It's just a reference. And no, I sure hope not. I'm happy the days of skipping through a dungeon without fighting anything are over.

Would definitely have helped to have these in certain parts of the Black Shroud in the first version. :B

The only thing I really miss about Sneak & Invisible is not actually the items, but the level of monster difficulty. This "trash" monster idea that has plagued MMOs recently is just so damn horrible. A monster should be feared. God I remember some times walking around watching Sneak & Vis wearing off thinking "yup, i'm screwed." Now i'm walking through an area...and there's nothing.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Hope not. It sucked to be reliant on those to explore in FFXI. And it also precipitates having to create true sight/sound mobs if the developers feel like being dicks.

Suffice to say, the extremes it was taken to in FFXI caused two people I knew to swear to never set foot in the Aht Urghan zones. Don't really want to see that here.

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No no.
Don't you get it? Having to rely on tricks, gear, potions, and companions is what bring spice to exploring. Anyone can just walk to a place. But it takes an explorer to brave the dangers using strength and wit to surpass or circumvent whatever foe stands in your way.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

No no.
Don't you get it? Having to rely on tricks, gear, potions, and companions is what bring spice to exploring. Anyone can just walk to a place. But it takes an explorer to brave the dangers using strength and wit to surpass or circumvent whatever foe stands in your way.

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Should add a distract spell, including that give us aoe marker placement >.>

Cast distract in an area on the ground and sound monsters flock to location, if you have a fire arrow or something (visual distraction as well) then you can distract by sight. Perhaps tossing elemental objects like crystals cause monsters affinity to the element to determine if they run towards or away from the element.. Or if they are smart monsters they may just run straight towards you, like a beastman (since they can think "What could do that? A player could... Player is back on the dinner table boys!".

I think sound/sight pots is a little extra spice but they can do more types.


Perhaps in a cursed forest the trees detect you by their roots so its not the sound but the pressure of your movement on the ground, so there you may have to cast float on yourself. The tank who wants to keep aggro may cast gravity and will gain extra hate this way.


hmm?

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Should add a distract spell, including that give us aoe marker placement >.>

Cast distract in an area on the ground and sound monsters flock to location, if you have a fire arrow or something (visual distraction as well) then you can distract by sight. Perhaps tossing elemental objects like crystals cause monsters affinity to the element to determine if they run towards or away from the element.. Or if they are smart monsters they may just run straight towards you, like a beastman (since they can think "What could do that? A player could... Player is back on the dinner table boys!".

I think sound/sight pots is a little extra spice but they can do more types.


Perhaps in a cursed forest the trees detect you by their roots so its not the sound but the pressure of your movement on the ground, so there you may have to cast float on yourself. The tank who wants to keep aggro may cast gravity and will gain extra hate this way.


hmm?

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Good ideas +1! Would love to see a Float spell or a real Decoy spell/ability like you mentioned.

I'm not saying they should necessarily bring back s/i but I would like higher level areas to have some sense of danger and excitement.

I want these items/spells for ARR :o

The thief in me is amused, the mage in me is horrified and the alchemist in me can't be bothered to synth any.

p.s. just being silly, take no offense :)

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

The only thing I really miss about Sneak & Invisible is not actually the items, but the level of monster difficulty. This "trash" monster idea that has plagued MMOs recently is just so damn horrible. A monster should be feared. God I remember some times walking around watching Sneak & Vis wearing off thinking "yup, i'm screwed." Now i'm walking through an area...and there's nothing.

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Well anything level 70+ had that effect at least. If you goofed, you got one-shot. :P

FFXI and FFXIV are way too different to compare in the respect of "trash" mobs, since it was certain death if you got aggro'd by an "even-match" in FFXI, which by today's standards you should be able to solo without much issue.

not needed you can walk pass sounds mob alrdy no need for those and walk behind sight mobs. All those items did in XI was make 99% of the mobs in zone useless cause no one ever fought them. Exploring in XIV was a much better experience than XI cause I didn't have items baby sitting me the whole time. Also if you wanna walk pass mobs freely then level a DOL.

Also All NM in XIV are True sound/ sight

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Well anything level 70+ had that effect at least. If you goofed, you got one-shot. :P

FFXI and FFXIV are way too different to compare in the respect of "trash" mobs, since it was certain death if you got aggro'd by an "even-match" in FFXI, which by today's standards you should be able to solo without much issue.

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FFXI rating system lied its ass off.. lol "Easy Prey" bullcrap... I dont mind tough monsters but if you are going to give me a rating at least -try- to make it accurate. WHM sees an easy prey, WHM dies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jennika

I'm not saying they should necessarily bring back s/i but I would like higher level areas to have some sense of danger and excitement.

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Well bringing back distraction utilities would allow devs to increase danger of a zone.

If they dont do that then they are limited to increasing danger to party only zones. WoW was this way imo, areas made for parties where dangerous but otherwise you could just run right in front of everything on your way to wherever lol (minus NMs and large packs of monsters).

So adding spells like prism, oil, distract, and catchy aggro terms (like the float/gravity example) would add a lot of capability for the devs. Since they can only expect you to do what they give you.

Hopefully they can ensure that these items are not improbable to use / get, for example alchemists can make the singular potions or deceptisol like in FFXIII (which adds all the sneaky buffs at once). Or gear that you can find like rings or boots that add sneak / float (some could have passives like +1 sneak, and others could be cast-able like floating boots).

I can imagine in my forest example there would be little patches of rocks or safe camps and then a tangled forest like a Lifa Tree (FFIX) scene, you'd float from point to point and if alone without a mage or pots you'd be using boots that gave you a self float ability which took all your TP to cast with a longer cooldown then duration (meaning you cant refresh it mid air, though a potion/mage could). Of course you could just walk on the ground but then you'd get some NM like aggro..

Could move the example to water or lava... (leviathan boss fight, when they add swimming to the game it would be more meaningful). I imagine it could be useful to dodge certain spells too like Ifrit creates fissures in the ground that ooze out lava, at a point the whole battle field will be covered. You can try to rush kill him before the field fills up or you may try to keep your party a float and buy some extra time.


Sight, Sound, Smell, Touch (running into the monster or like that gravity example), Element (casting spells of a certain type), Magic/Ability (Using TP or MP). The last one Magic/Ability detection there isnt much you can do to dodge it besides not using magic or abilities lol. But say for element a fire elemental aggros to water spells cast around him, maybe cures or buffs you if you cast fire, and will ignore stone/lightning (excluding spells targeting him of course, everything that doesn't help a monster should aggro it).


TL;DR Devs should consider many types of aggro and in that respect make travel possible but considerate of peril. And that type of peril is not as simple as "monster is level 99" but rather monster is 3 levels above you and may chase your shit down for stepping on his flower garden (another type of unique aggro, territorial - stay away from my eggs/flowers/w.e).

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I have gotten every node in 1.0. Had the title before November. My point stands.

Having to walk to get around aggro is a lot less painful than becoming dependent on consumables. Besides, the only annoying true-anything mobs were the pigs that were 10-40 levels higher than I was at lv50. That's nothing compared to some of the stuff I saw in FFXI over the years.

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Can I brag too?

I touched every node in Coerthas in the first week when XIV launched. :D

I dunno, personally I don't want sneak/invis in XIV.
I did use it many times in XI but for XIV I kind of liked the way it was.

Either way is ok, I would still try MGS through mobs just for fun lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

The only thing I really miss about Sneak & Invisible is not actually the items, but the level of monster difficulty. This "trash" monster idea that has plagued MMOs recently is just so damn horrible. A monster should be feared. God I remember some times walking around watching Sneak & Vis wearing off thinking "yup, i'm screwed." Now i'm walking through an area...and there's nothing.

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I feel the same way. Games that are based off of platforms that involve simply sprinkling weak-ass, 1- 2- or 3-shot-to-kill monsters around zones just makes battle encounters dull and boring. "Don't worry, if they aggro, well, just keep running - after 3 seconds they'll give up. Or, I can just sneeze and they'll all die." ... *YAWN*

I can only hope encounters with monsters - regardless of level - in ARR will be tantamount to an actual event - or of the sorts - and not just some pointless speed bump...

(Personally, if I spent the time/effort/money developing a monster just to be treated as "trash" or done away with in a matter of seconds... I'd be disappointed in myself. To each his/her own I suppose *shrugs*)

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

I dunno, personally I don't want sneak/invis in XIV.
I did use it many times in XI but for XIV I kind of liked the way it was.

Either way is ok, I would still try MGS through mobs just for fun lol.

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I think through some quests stealing from Garleans or through Cid it would be cool to see auto applying trinkets. Like a trinket that would auto apply deoderize and sneak. Perhaps a fairly expensive potion an alchemist can make is bottomless, then load that into your auto spray pack and equip it. Of course you wouldnt keep it on all the time since there would be better combatant trinkets - so you'd have to decide if you were sneaking or if you were fighting.

Months ago Yoshi-P said it was not in their plan to put such "potions/magic" in the game, but now who knows?! If there will be areas with several mobs L55-60+ it could be funny sneak through them, praying your Invisible/Sneak effect doesn't wear off.

P.S.
Remember The "Old" Black Shroud"? With its narrow paths, full of True-Sight damned Pug? One requirement woulb be not to show Inv/Snk wear off time...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elexia

You relied on hitting x to walk past certain enemies in a lot of zones in XIV. Well damn, there goes that argument. Even though you can get knocked off, you relied on your chocobo and gobbue to get through many tough spots for the simple fact of drawing aggro to force them to tether.

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It's not a problem of "I had to use sneak and invis potions too much in XI" its the fact that it cost gils if you didnt make them yourself. Which I can see that being annoying. It doesn't cost me gil to hit X and walk past mobs or to call my chocobo or goobue.

So yea I'd prefer having to walk past sound and be sneaky with sight and just run like hell for true sight/sound rather then have yet another medicine I have to carry all the time.

Besides I'm sure Ferne was just being his witty old self and make refrence to XI for giggles. I highly doubt they are bringing those back. (well, at least I hope not ^_^ lol)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Enma

Months ago Yoshi-P said it was not in their plan to put such "potions/magic" in the game, but now who knows?! If there will be areas with several mobs L55-60+ it could be funny sneak through them, praying your Invisible/Sneak effect doesn't wear off.

P.S.
Remember The "Old" Black Shroud"? With its narrow paths, full of True-Sight damned Pug? One requirement woulb be not to show Inv/Snk wear off time...

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Anti rpg statement! retract it Yoshi retract it! lol


I can see potions being an inconvenience, but not only will your appreciate the challenge (most*) you can appreciate the change more too.

For example you start the game- in the noob area monsters are not too mean, you get into your 20 and 30s and monsters start to kick ass, you have to be careful now.

Some start to aggro funny and you learn that a monster will attack you when your back is turned, or when you stand next to its female counterpart, you start picking up some tricks like sneak and deoderize making travel easier, distract to move monsters away from paths you need, learning some monsters are smart and 'saw you cast distract, or sneak', and you learn to be trickier.

You grab some cool tech from Cid at 40 making applying potions really easy (add potions to the device, add the device ability to your hot bar, click the ability and it applies a few potions at the same time), then you find some even crazier agro terms where your party really has to work together- perhaps you found some rings that keep sneak on at all times, potions that dont run out, or boots that can give you float for a short time, challenge and ease introduced in staggered amounts giving you appreciation for growth and change..

Its a bit like Dark Souls actually, each zone has a staggered learning movement such that once you are done you feel pretty badass and accomplished. (Part of Dark Souls is that its hard, but they also stagger the difficulty and introduction of ease, like rings that stop water from slowing you down after you've been trudging through fields of swamp).


I know I used 20 commas and like 0 periods.. but w.e lol


The basic travel zones can be pretty reasonable and then as you go farther out into the wild, it gets wild (as it should).

Also for DoL they have built in sneak spells so its really not that bad.


Aside comment: I find it funny people hate having to buy potions but they are ok with the materia system which reeks of breaking and buying crap, it has a huge "ima gil sink" title just like Korean MMOs lol. At least the potions you knew were going to do their job XD


*A challenge can bind communities of dissimilar types, its why I think the FFXI community was quite strong regardless of the types of people that played it. The game made everyone commiserate into a community lol

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Aside comment: I find it funny people hate having to buy potions but they are ok with the materia system which reeks of breaking and buying crap, it has a huge "ima gil sink" title just like Korean MMOs lol. At least the potions you knew were going to do their job XD

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Right.

That, and, I'm guessing that consumables purchased from players (and not NPCs) play an essential role for an in-game economy. Admittedly I'm no economist, so maybe my guess is far from true.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

I hope those items/spells stay out of the game. I prefer the method we had of avoiding aggro in 1.0, walking past sound and behind sight.

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Unless they completely block passages/hallways with large groups of level 90ish mobs like they did in 1.0
In 1.0 you just levleed Paladin instead of using these items!

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Originally Posted by Reaujien

Right.

That, and, I'm guessing that consumables purchased from players (and not NPCs) play an essential role for an in-game economy. Admittedly I'm no economist, so maybe my guess is far from true.

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Either I was a mega noob in FFXI or potions were bought from players as well (always bought mine from the AH). The materia system is designed in imo, frustrating force consumption (chance to get nothing, like Korean MMOs famous upgrade system), while potions are still in force consumption at least they work when you buy them lol and they costed much less.

Maybe you are agreeing with me and I cant tell lol.

(But yes the consumption helps boost the economy, somethings just look like an "excuse" to boost the economy though)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Either I was a mega noob in FFXI or potions were bought from players as well (always bought mine from the AH). The materia system is designed in imo, frustrating force consumption (chance to get nothing, like Korean MMOs famous upgrade system), while potions are still in force consumption at least they work when you buy them lol and they costed much less.

Maybe you are agreeing with me and I cant tell lol.

(But yes the consumption helps boost the economy, somethings just look like an "excuse" to boost the economy though)

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I am :). My apologies for coming off differently.

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Originally Posted by Ricky

Unless they completely block passages/hallways with large groups of level 90ish mobs like they did in 1.0
In 1.0 you just levleed Paladin instead of using these items!

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Paladin was the only way I could get the Oakwood aetheryte. Stupid Ahriman.

I haven't read through the whole thread yet (I'm at work shh lol), so I'm sorry if this has already been said, but my initial thoughts are that I would love to see sneak/invis brought to ffxiv. I know there's currently ways of avoiding aggro with sight and sound mobs now, but I really miss not know when sneak/invis would wear off. It added a whole new element of danger to ffxi that I really enjoyed, even when they wore off at the most inconvenient times. That danger isn't there when you can just walk around sound aggro'ing mobs and you know you'll always be safe that way.

Since the end of Alpha, I went back to Vana'diel for the first time in years. Just attempting to get from my native Windurst to Mhaura, on my way to Selbina and Valkurm, was an exciting, adrenaline drenched adventure, shared by two other Tarus I didn't know at all, at the beginning of the Journey. By the end of it, with hearts all-pitter-patter, we bonded with bows and vows of future cooperation and friendship. All of this at level 10. Danger made us happy!

At some point, knowing that we would miss the Selbina Ferry if we waited too long for certain two goblins to move out of our way, my character, an ex-mule, reached into his pockets and blessed the three of us with some timely Prism-Powder pats. Then we ran exhilarated the last malm to the docks. The two new players behaved as if I had revealed the path to eternal life, thanking me profusely. They cheered as though I was a great hero. I almost believed it, for a few minutes. Then an old friend broke the news to me... There is now no death penalty for jobs under level 31.

Even if the danger was only in my head, I still haven't lived moments like those, in any version of FFXIV. Alas.

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Originally Posted by Exn

LOL! Whoa how fail is that! Ppl actually didn't enter zones because they were afraid of using oils/powders? Extremes? Yeah right. I get you didn't like invis/sneak items in XI, but there was nothing wrong with the system, your friends were just terribad. Can't even feel bad saying that, cuz after 6 years of XI. I have never heard something so ridiculous.

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Sneer all you want, my buddy and his wife HATED how mob placement and aggro rules for them was set in TAU zones. After losing a whole level dying while trying to get to an imp camp, my buddy threw in the towel and decided to go back to soling mobs on the main continent (he played a SMN). They, just like everyone else, paid for the damn expansion and in the end did not get their money's worth.

Yes, my friend was the kind of guy that could get lost in a hallway on /follow, but he knew how to play the game where it mattered.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Post.

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Doesn't it get tiring to have to grasp at things to create an argument the moment someone dares to say something from FFXI sucked?

Exploration as per 1.0 was fine. Exploration in FFXI required consumables and precipitated dickish moves from the developers in a (poor) attempt to create challenge.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Aside comment: I find it funny people hate having to buy potions but they are ok with the materia system which reeks of breaking and buying crap, it has a huge "ima gil sink" title just like Korean MMOs lol. At least the potions you knew were going to do their job

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Dude, if I can be frank for one moment, I HATE the materia system because of the fact it is Lineage II's enchant system but with harsher consequences upon failure. Not everyone loves the materia system. It's just that it's too late for anything to be done about it.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Dude, if I can be frank for one moment, I HATE the materia system because of the fact it is Lineage II's enchant system but with harsher consequences upon failure. Not everyone loves the materia system. It's just that it's too late for anything to be done about it.

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/dude hugs

lol

I'm praying for Yoshida to surprises us in beta with a different system that's not such an obvious and forced gil turner (I have no problem with well blended gil turners but my god that one is so obvious lol).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I'm praying for Yoshida to surprises us in beta with a different system that's not such an obvious and forced gil turner (I have no problem with well blended gil turners but my god that one is so obvious lol).

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Seeing how much the devs care about crafters, I doubt much would change unless he turns materia into guaranteed gear enhancement or turns it into something like TOR's item modification system (bonus of the latter is that then you wouldn't really need vanity slots ~_^).

Here, for clarity, this was a post I made for redesigning FFXI's evoliths using TOR's mod system as inspiration.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Does this mean there will once again be potions and spells that grant invisibility or anti-sound buffs to evade aggro?

Interested to learn more.

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While I can't speak for the devs, I'm not going to expect any sneak/invisible items or abilities available to anyone except gatherers, at least not immediately. Many of the forum reps also work on the Final Fantasy XI forums, and it is likely that Fernehawles has at lease played FFXI and knows that we will get a joke in reference to those items because many of use have played XI as well.

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Originally Posted by SodRansom

I haven't read through the whole thread yet (I'm at work shh lol), so I'm sorry if this has already been said, but my initial thoughts are that I would love to see sneak/invis brought to ffxiv. I know there's currently ways of avoiding aggro with sight and sound mobs now, but I really miss not know when sneak/invis would wear off. It added a whole new element of danger to ffxi that I really enjoyed, even when they wore off at the most inconvenient times. That danger isn't there when you can just walk around sound aggro'ing mobs and you know you'll always be safe that way.

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How is being completely hidden and safe using potions and not having any potions to sneak thru an map not more dangerous? That post made my head hurt, people talk about how they want the world to dangerous to explore but they wanna skip over 99% of the mobs like they did in XI......

Also this is not the first fern has made an FFXI related joke/reference on these forums.....

Fun fact: I was so noob that I didn't know PLD has an "invincible" skill till I was done with all Aetherites :p What can I say, I hated playing DoW in 1.0 but had them leveled regardless, just cause I could (plus the AF sets are pretty!)

It was exciting though, had to camp the mobs for a good opportunity to rush past them and pray while running. On a few occasions I did "cheat" though >.> Died like 2 steps from the node and had a LS member who had the node teleport and raise me :3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gramul

No no.
Don't you get it? Having to rely on tricks, gear, potions, and companions is what bring spice to exploring. Anyone can just walk to a place. But it takes an explorer to brave the dangers using strength and wit to surpass or circumvent whatever foe stands in your way.

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I disagree. there was more spice to exploring when you had to use your wits (and sometimes agility) to avoid enemies, rather than spamming consumables. There wasn't much danger in exploring with oils and powders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I disagree. there was more spice to exploring when you had to use your wits (and sometimes agility) to avoid enemies, rather than spamming consumables. There wasn't much danger in exploring with oils and powders.

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Making the potions last not as long and modify rather then totalfy detections (making a word up leave me alone :D) would help.

In that way perhaps walking is 5 sound, running is 15, and the potion modifies your sound by (*)1/2 -1 making walking 1.5 and 6.5 running. The number affects the aggro range and duration of aggro monster would chase you longer if you make louder noises. Aggroing with 1.5 would mean you ran right through the monster, or the monster has heightened senses.

Then make it last 30 to 45 seconds with 2min cooldown. Sprinting shouldn't be silenced unless its a part of some thief / ninja hidden passive.


Oils and Powders ran out at random times so there was a danger there, and if you ran around without them there was a bigger danger since monsters were pretty strong.

Once you add more methods of avoiding monsters you can add more methods of monsters becoming harder to avoid, meaning you'd hopefully take more part in the strategy and wits of the dance.

I don't need to stinkin' potions! I'm a Red Mage!

*Casts Sneak, and Invisible*

Goblin's sniffs the air.... Rrrarrgh!

"OH GOD! Ahhhhhh!!!"

That pretty much sums up my time in XI as RDM! lulz!

If 1.0 Gridania's layout still exists, then yeah I wouldn't mind having those...

...however, it became more of an open field so no need for that. >_>

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Firon

How is being completely hidden and safe using potions and not having any potions to sneak thru an map not more dangerous? That post made my head hurt, people talk about how they want the world to dangerous to explore but they wanna skip over 99% of the mobs like they did in XI......

Also this is not the first fern has made an FFXI related joke/reference on these forums.....

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Made your head hurt? Did you even read my post? Did you not see the part where I said "I miss not knowing when sneak/invis would wear off?" That's not completely safe. That's running as quick as you can to where you gotta be hoping that you won't be left naked in the middle of a bunch mobs that could kill you instantly. That seems more exciting to me than just pressing "walk" and then slowly walking wherever you gotta go knowing you're totally safe.

And where did I say that I want a world too dangerous to explore? And where did I say I was going to skip over 99% percent of the mobs? Seems like you need a thicker skull dude. You get headaches easily.

I think he was just staying FF themed.

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Originally Posted by SodRansom

Made your head hurt? Did you even read my post? Did you not see the part where I said "I miss not knowing when sneak/invis would wear off?" That's not completely safe. That's running as quick as you can to where you gotta be hoping that you won't be left naked in the middle of a bunch mobs that could kill you instantly. That seems more exciting to me than just pressing "walk" and then slowly walking wherever you gotta go knowing you're totally safe.

And where did I say that I want a world too dangerous to explore? And where did I say I was going to skip over 99% percent of the mobs? Seems like you need a thicker skull dude. You get headaches easily.

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With pots and oils and it was 100% safe... if you got aggro with pots and oils something was wrong. Having oils and powders will encourage people to skip over all the mobs, just think about how many times you ran thru x area and never fought a monster there.