Job Individuality/Pride/Dedication

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Originally Posted by Crevox

MNKs aren't invited because there's an easily obtainable alternative - DRG. DRG does better at Garuda, why take a MNK when you can easily get a DRG? It's so easy to get a DRG because it's so easy to switch your class and get their strength up to a point where it would be viable in the fight. This results in the people that actually LIKE monk getting shafted and being unable to play the class they want to play.

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Yes, DRG are better at garuda but what you are leaving out is a dedicated MNK is always better than regular DRG. The only MNk that get left out is the terrible one. I was MNK main and i made it work for Garuda, i didn't whine that my MNK doesnt get invited, instead i refined the strat, find a unique position for MNK in Garuda party to convince people to let me try it, and i did.

http://youtu.be/4PPUsXfjWRM

This whole thing is community issue and PUG mentality to go with the least resistance path.

Theres a simple fix to this for content... they make it so you cant switch inside an Instance.. there you go.. no need overhauling their entire system.

So we go back to lfp all day w/o invite because I think PUP is a superior job? No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Yes, DRG are better at garuda but what you are leaving out is a dedicated MNK is always better than regular DRG. The only MNk that get left out is the terrible one. I was MNK main and i made it work for Garuda, i didn't whine that my MNK doesnt get invited, instead i refined the strat, find a unique position for MNK in Garuda party to convince people to let me try it, and i did.

http://youtu.be/4PPUsXfjWRM

This whole thing is community issue and PUG mentality to go with the least resistance path.

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God MNK is awesome. I wish I'd levelled that job up.

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Originally Posted by elets

Theres a simple fix to this for content... they make it so you cant switch inside an Instance.. there you go.. no need overhauling their entire system.

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The only thing that this fix is gonna accomplish is everyone will be bringing the absolute safest class to win the instance, there will be no more experiments, currently people can try and experiments with stuff and if it doesn't work they can just change inside instances.


Hey BRD doesn't work at CC, lets try out BLM burn *swap classes*

instead of

Hey bRD doesnt work at CC, lets exit the dungeon first and retry it with another class.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

THAT IS THE FAULT OF THE PLAYERBASE. NOT THE DEVS. The devs made full aware of making content viable for all setups. Again, it's not ideal, and it's not gonna be the most efficient way of getting things done, but it's still possible to speed run with most setups. Some of us actually really like this system. So stop playing with bad/closed minded players if that's the case.

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It is the devs fault, because within the system they designed and created it is beneficial and optimal to go for the classes that work best. It's easy and effective because of how simple it is to get classes to 50 and how easy it is to switch classes on the fly.

Whether or not people are correct about their decisions for forming parties is not the devs fault, but the above statement is the core issue that creates this environment.

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Theres a simple fix to this for content... they make it so you cant switch inside an Instance.. there you go.. no need overhauling their entire system.

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It doesn't resolve the issue, but it's a start. It's a positive change regardless.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

The only thing that this fix is gonna accomplish is everyone will be bringing the absolute safest class to win the instance, there will be no more experiments, currently people can try and experiments with stuff and if it doesn't work they can just change inside instances.


Hey BRD doesn't work at CC, lets try out BLM burn *swap classes*

instead of

Hey bRD doesnt work at CC, lets exit the dungeon first and retry it with another class.

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That's a good point, however you still have the issue of constantly swapping inside. Then you get everyone simply switching to the most efficient thing for the current room.

Removing the ability to switch mid-run means you have to make a decision and live with it for the entire run. It may even promote diversity. You can't just BLM burn select parts of the dungeon if you can't switch. If you can't BLM burn the entire dungeon then you need a new strategy that allows you to get through each room efficiently. It may take longer for you to get the strategy down but it would mean party choices would be more interesting.

Kind of like Garuda where you had certain things you wanted mages for, certain things you wanted melee for and certain things both could help with. It forced you to create a decently mixed party.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

That's a good point, however you still have the issue of constantly swapping inside. Then you get everyone simply switching to the most efficient thing for the current room.

Removing the ability to switch mid-run means you have to make a decision and live with it for the entire run. It may even promote diversity. You can't just BLM burn select parts of the dungeon if you can't switch. If you can't BLM burn the entire dungeon then you need a new strategy that allows you to get through each room efficiently. It may take longer for you to get the strategy down but it would mean party choices would be more interesting.

Kind of like Garuda where you had certain things you wanted mages for, certain things you wanted melee for and certain things both could help with. It forced you to create a decently mixed party.

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Since you can't swap anything inside a primal fight, there is not much diversity in terms of Garuda setup isn't it? that alone is the proof why not able to swap classes inside dungeons is a cons to me because people brings what setup works best and safest.

Unless by diversity you mean you need to bring 2 melee and 2 mages because the content forced you to? MNKs are still not gonna be invited to that party slot because DRG are clearly better in this instances, so how do we make MNKs shines in this fight? buff them up? then MNK takes the slot and the DRGs complains? this is an endless loop, there will be never be perfect balance.

The biggest problem as I see it is that the playerbase at the moment is, for want of a kinder word, "abnormal". Having every class in the game at max level with AF gear isn't normal, and it creates a skewed expectation of other players.

I'd be all for some sort of class change restriction in the hopes that it'd mean people took 1 or 2 jobs more seriously instead of switching out every five minutes for fear of being sub-optimal.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

That's a good point, however you still have the issue of constantly swapping inside. Then you get everyone simply switching to the most efficient thing for the current room.

Removing the ability to switch mid-run means you have to make a decision and live with it for the entire run. It may even promote diversity. You can't just BLM burn select parts of the dungeon if you can't switch. If you can't BLM burn the entire dungeon then you need a new strategy that allows you to get through each room efficiently. It may take longer for you to get the strategy down but it would mean party choices would be more interesting.

Kind of like Garuda where you had certain things you wanted mages for, certain things you wanted melee for and certain things both could help with. It forced you to create a decently mixed party.

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Well said, plus itll add more of a challenge to the dungeons and people will have to play smarter rather than play follow the leader 85% of the time

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Originally Posted by KimimiAvesta

The biggest problem as I see it is that the playerbase at the moment is, for want of a kinder word, "abnormal". Having every class in the game at max level with AF gear isn't normal, and it creates a skewed expectation of other players.

I'd be all for some sort of class change restriction in the hopes that it'd mean people took 1 or 2 jobs more seriously instead of switching out every five minutes for fear of being sub-optimal.

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This is why we getting gear scores utility i think, so we can phase out gimps.

Do what I do. Specialize. I've played PLD since the good ol' XI days. I continued to play Gladiator when XIV first came out and jumped into PLD when it first arrived in Eorzea. Even when it was "useless" I continued to play it because I wanted to and was good at it.

Sure, you may have a harder time in the game because min/maxers will try tell you what you can and cannot do, but my philosophy is this:

I play this game for my own enjoyment, not the enjoyment of every other person on the server. I choose to spend my time on Paladin, helping people, rather than grinding away.

I don't expect relic, I don't expect world firsts, I don't expect dibs on drops.

But I'll be damned if I'm not gonna have fun on the job of my choosing.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Since you can't swap anything inside a primal fight, there is not much diversity in terms of Garuda setup isn't it? that alone is the proof why not able to swap classes inside dungeons is a cons to me because people brings what setup works best and safest.

Unless by diversity you mean you need to bring 2 melee and 2 mages because the content forced you to? MNKs are still not gonna be invited to that party slot because DRG are clearly better in this instances, so how do we make MNKs shines in this fight? buff them up? then MNK takes the slot and the DRGs complains? this is an endless loop, there will be never be perfect balance.

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But as even you said, skill is a factor here and a good player will perform better on a job they're familiar with. The slot roles may be determined but if there are multiple viable options for those roles then you have diversity. So in the DD slot, is there only one viable option or are there many? That's what allows diversity. By viable I don't mean best, I mean "does it work? Yeah. Then it's viable".

Being forced to bring something because of enemy number, damage type or even incapacitation does promote diversity. Given, with those things there is no single right choice. That is what is important.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

This is why we getting gear scores utility i think, so we can phase out gimps.

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Get on my level, garbage.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

It is the devs fault, because within the system they designed and created it is beneficial and optimal to go for the classes that work best. It's easy and effective because of how simple it is to get classes to 50 and how easy it is to switch classes on the fly.

Whether or not people are correct about their decisions for forming parties is not the devs fault, but the above statement is the core issue that creates this environment.

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Because people don't do this in XI with BLM burn parties, or in other games in general. The issue is that people want to get content done as quickly efficiently as possible? Well okay. How dare those pesky devs give us the freedom to do so.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

Because people don't do this in XI with BLM burn parties, or in other games in general. The issue is that people want to get content done as quickly efficiently as possible? Well okay. How dare those pesky devs give us the freedom to do so.

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I meant optimal and beneficial in terms of the difficulty of finding the people. It is easy to get the job you NEED because anyone can just class switch. This is a good thing, but it also means that non-optimal builds are never considered/tested/utilized, and if a certain class doesn't fit the "optimal setup" of the content they may never see the content (unless they switch classes, but they shouldn't have to).

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Originally Posted by Crevox

I meant optimal and beneficial in terms of the difficulty of finding the people. It is easy to get the job you NEED because anyone can just class switch. This is a good thing, but it also means that non-optimal builds are never considered/tested/utilized, and if a certain class doesn't fit the "optimal setup" of the content they may never see the content (unless they switch classes, but they shouldn't have to).

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Ehhhh, yes and no.

For the longest time, WAR was the one and only tank you would ever tank into Aurum Vale. Then some rogues decided to try Paladin tanks. This wasn't well received by the community at large, but as time went on, and people saw that it could actually work pretty damn good, it started to pan out better.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Do what I do. Specialize. I've played PLD since the good ol' XI days. I continued to play Gladiator when XIV first came out and jumped into PLD when it first arrived in Eorzea. Even when it was "useless" I continued to play it because I wanted to and was good at it.

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Not that it counts for much, but I always thought you were a damn good PLD :D

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Originally Posted by Arcell

But as even you said, skill is a factor here and a good player will perform better on a job they're familiar with. The slot roles may be determined but if there are multiple viable options for those roles then you have diversity. So in the DD slot, is there only one viable option or are there many? That's what allows diversity. By viable I don't mean best, I mean "does it work? Yeah. Then it's viable".

Being forced to bring something because of enemy number, damage type or even incapacitation does promote diversity. Given, with those things there is no single right choice. That is what is important.

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Yes i see your point, but why put a restriction when you can have all the freedom you wants, if you want to go 1 class all the way, you can. If you want to change multiple times inside, you can.

What if there is LS out there filled with BLM lovers, making a fight to force them to play melee iis punishing them no? so lets not be biased here and thinks objectively.

I however very much agree that incap is a very good way to promote diversity, you can bring all BLM to burn stuff down faster but you ain't getting shit to drop without incapping the NM, in a way people that wants to BLM burn still can but they will have to deal with shitty droprate or harder NM but they will still be able to win the content.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Yes i see your point, but why put a restriction when you can have all the freedom you wants, if you want to go 1 class all the way, you can. If you want to change multiple times inside, you can.

What if there is LS out there filled with BLM lovers, making a fight to force them to play melee iis punishing them no? so lets not be biased here and thinks objectively.

I however very much agree that incap is a very good way to promote diversity, you can bring all BLM to burn stuff down faster but you ain't getting shit to drop without incapping the NM, in a way people that wants to BLM burn still can but they will have to deal with shitty droprate or harder NM but they will still be able to win the content.

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Which is why a greater focus on incapacitation in 2.0 is necessary lol. At least, that's what I've been saying for a while now. Those threads are likely buried 20 pages deep by now though >.>

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Ehhhh, yes and no.

For the longest time, WAR was the one and only tank you would ever tank into Aurum Vale. Then some rogues decided to try Paladin tanks. This wasn't well received by the community at large, but as time went on, and people saw that it could actually work pretty damn good, it started to pan out better.

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I would say this is more so likely due to the desperation of being unable to find a tank. Someone probably grabbed a paladin because they couldn't find a warrior and said "lol why were we looking for a warrior, this works fine."

Besides that, yeah it's bound to happen, but the system still highly discourages it.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Do what I do. Specialize. I've played PLD since the good ol' XI days. I continued to play Gladiator when XIV first came out and jumped into PLD when it first arrived in Eorzea. Even when it was "useless" I continued to play it because I wanted to and was good at it.

Sure, you may have a harder time in the game because min/maxers will try tell you what you can and cannot do, but my philosophy is this:

I play this game for my own enjoyment, not the enjoyment of every other person on the server. I choose to spend my time on Paladin, helping people, rather than grinding away.

I don't expect relic, I don't expect world firsts, I don't expect dibs on drops.

But I'll be damned if I'm not gonna have fun on the job of my choosing.

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I do specialize. I only played WHM, and now I'm only going to play SMN - but I don't want to suffer for it, and it's very possible that I will due to the current system. Posts/topics like my OP is dedicated to feedback for SE, hopefully adjusting their future development mindset to sway positively... but I'm also very interested in the community's opinion.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

I would say this is more so likely due to the desperation of being unable to find a tank. Someone probably grabbed a paladin because they couldn't find a warrior and said "lol why were we looking for a warrior, this works fine."

Besides that, yeah it's bound to happen, but the system still highly discourages it.

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Now you're just assuming things. Despite what you may think, people out there do like trying different strategies. Sometimes a given strategy just doesn't work for a group so they have to tweak it to suit their own group. When I started doing dungeon speed runs with a group we changed the setup for each dungeon at least 5 times before we found one that worked best for us. Wasn't the decided on most optimal strategy but it worked for us. I'm sure we weren't the only ones.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

I meant optimal and beneficial in terms of the difficulty of finding the people. It is easy to get the job you NEED because anyone can just class switch. This is a good thing, but it also means that non-optimal builds are never considered/tested/utilized, and if a certain class doesn't fit the "optimal setup" of the content they may never see the content (unless they switch classes, but they shouldn't have to).

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People will always go for the person who is better-suited for an event. This is true with anything. This is where you take matters into your own hands and do content your way. Do you want to do everything with one job? Sure. Good luck finding people who agree, because again, it's a problem with the community. Not the dev team. The dev team is simply giving you the option to do so, and building content so that switching jobs doesn't make the content a walk in the park.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

People will always go for the person who is better-suited for an event. This is true with anything. This is where you take matters into your own hands and do content your way. Do you want to do everything with one job? Sure. Good luck finding people who agree, because again, it's a problem with the community. Not the dev team. The dev team is simply giving you the option to do so, and building content so that switching jobs doesn't make the content a walk in the park.

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They will go for the person who is better-suited provided it is reasonable to do so. If the damage difference between monk and dragoon isn't that big, they're not gonna bother going for dragoon... just get one or the other. However, if it's VERY EASY to get a dragoon instead of a monk (which is the case with this class switching system) then by all means they're just gonna turn down the monk and wait for the dragoon.

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Now you're just assuming things.

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It was just a likely example, not an assumption (hence why I put that final statement).

Idk, I really like it. Then again, I love all the jobs that I have leveled (otherwise I wouldn't have bothered). It also means you're not always stuck playing the same thing for 1 event. I don't understand why people limit themselves, to be honest. In FFXI I was only-mage, and I realize my mistake now. Melees are pretty damn fun, and it's not too hard to have all your jobs decently geared (be that mage or melee). Before final save I decided to fix my inventory, and managed to carry all my DoW/M/L/H gear, and still am at 97 inventory slots taken, so it's also not a matter of inventory overload.

I understand though, the point OP is trying to convey, I just don't think it's such a problem with the game, but with the community.

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Originally Posted by EnkiOro

I understand though, the point OP is trying to convey, I just don't think it's such a problem with the game, but with the community.

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It IS a problem with the community, but the community forms these ideas and tendencies due to the way the system is designed.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

It IS a problem with the community, but the community forms these ideas and tendencies due to the way the system is designed.

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Granted it's not the same, but in FFXI you also had to change jobs if for a certain event, someone had to leave, or at Dynamis Lord. This just makes it easier and less troublesome and also cuts downtime by a lot. I've had people that want to lock themselves in one job (say WHM) and yet they show up at events and their gear needs a lot of working around. Then they get upset when you ask them to switch to BLM, for something like AV.

It's just a matter of who do you play with. In a pick-up of course people won't be trusting, because their goal is in the hands of strangers, and I understand if they want to add as little variables to the event as possible. But if you're playing with a group of friends, there shouldn't be many issues, if any at all. Not every strategy works for every group and people shouldn't be scared to play around with the content, and figure it out by themselves.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

Yup, follow the guide that pertains to the content or else it's impossible. It's disappointing.

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An attitude born out of MMOs where the price of 'failure' is huge, eg. camp an HNM for 3 days, get claim, then wipe due to non-maximal job combination. Add to that the 'phat lewt' that so mnay are fixated on which is only obtainable from such fights and you breed a playerbase almost entirely risk-averse.

Thus, players don't want to take risks that 3 days will be wasted so they demand 'efficiency' and min/maxed group setup.

Sure, many are lazy, and want a 'guaranteed' win (if such an option exists with an encounter), but many also I would argue simply want to avoid frustration that non-optimal groups can often bring. It doesn't help when SE and other MMO developers create fights with 'gimmicks' that more or less REQUIRE specific jobs be present or else a 'win' is largely out of reach: eg. Nyzul at upper floors where some job combinations make it EZMODE and others almost a guaranteed fail.

Or COP 'back in the day' when RNG and later SMNs were 'required'. YES, I KNOW, even on release a 'balanced group COULD do the Prommies, but frankly, no one in their right mind deliberately handicapped themselves by NOT taking the 'optimal' job setup: again, the price of failure was so high players didn't intend to take chances.

This is what you get when players demand 'challenging' content which they say with the un-said 'agenda' of making it exclusive and not for the 'casuals', those lesser-skilled players will try to maximise their chances of a 'win' by following the 'one true' way written up in a mix/maxer's 'guide'.

Seems to me, in MMOs it's only the real 'leading edge' shells/guilds/kins that experiment to see what works, thereafter the rest of the players follow the 'guides' these 'hardcore' players generate.

Not going to quote the entire post, but..

I understand all of that, but times have changed. A wipe on Ifrit is a short break and a try again. I know it sucks to wipe, and I know people don't want to waste time and don't want to lose people and have the party fall apart, but even still. There's a lot of situations int his game where alternative job choices are fine but people still don't want to bring them. Most of the time they aren't even willing to think for themselves the reasoning behind strategies, thus allowing them to PROPERLY determine why they need job x and why alternative y may or may not be a better choice.

People don't want to bring those alternatives because of how simple and easy it is to switch jobs, thus it's easy to ensure you have the "optimal" (emphasis on quotes) setup. It discourages funky party compositions, discovery of new strategies, and leaves us running the same place with the exact same setup over and over... sometimes as the class or job we don't even want to play.

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Originally Posted by indira

OP i know what you mean.

i hate when i have my best equip job monk kicked to the curb then have to switch to something i hate and didnt bother equiping because i hate it like blm. because people refuse to try another way.

well im hoping the content finder works like wow's raid finder that way they select you in a role not a job.
everything about "do it this way only" is an excuse for people who cant think and need to be systematic. i been in plenty of good partys where they told everyone just pick whatever you want after the healer & tank was decided. in the end if everyones not on the same page you gonna fail regardless.

SE need to make a way where you define your character as that "job" is what i'am.

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I don't usually agree with you, but I am behind you 100% in this. The real hard part will be designing content in a way that people can stick to the jobs they like without being penalized. Hence why I've been wanting jobs to be put in rosters over the approach taken in FFXI. This will mean things may overlap between jobs, but it does level the playing field.

I just wish something along those lines had been asked at the last letter from the producer. That would have been the perfect chance to get a feel of how class dynamics will play out in 2.0.

I like the option to switch on the fly, rather than have to run back to a mog house to change job.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

I like the option to switch on the fly, rather than have to run back to a mog house to change job.

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Convenience is nice, but this is a bit much in this case in my opinion.

To certain extent I agree with OP.
I don't particularly like the way jobs are changed on the go depending what the situation requires, but it's sadly what the game is and I have sort of learned to live with it.
I think we will see some change in this however when 2.0 comes out because we will have smaller inventory space, so we won't be able to carry as much gear with us as we have been.

What comes to people changing to jobs they aren't comfortable with... Only a foolish party/event leader forces people on jobs they are not skilled with and if you want to get anything done, I suggest you avoid groups like that. So far 14 favours small groups (I consider 8 man static small) so it hasn't been TOO difficult to put together a group and find the strengts and weaknesses of everyone. I think this job issue really is for pick up groups and well... pick up groups are a bit hit and miss no matter what.

I have picked 3 jobs that I will play and if that's not good enough then gtfo and let me find people who are happy with it. I will make sure that the ls or the static knows that these 3 jobs are the only ones I play and even if I level another job on my spare time, I will only attend events on one of the 3 jobs I have geared up and have experience with.

I think it really was like that in 11 as well, eventhough you had to go to Moghouse to switch jobs. I have MANY times warped back from sea or w.e and changed to another job because for some reason the setup wasn't working.

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Originally Posted by Quesse

I actually didn't really like that FFXI was so limiting in its job selection - in that it was completely annoying before abyssea to level more than 2-3 jobs to 75 and gear them. You had to really pick what to focus on and didn't get to enjoy all the jobs that FFXI had to offer.

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Personally that's what I liked about it. it made things alot more diverse. everyone had a different set of jobs levelled and there weren't really many people the same. and in a way ensured people could play what they wanted. if you had dragoon you weren't told to go warrior or sam or whatever. you could happily stay drg. in xiv though even if you have drg you'd go monk at miser....

I'm told drg's really do well at misers but i've never seen one. which kinda highlights the problem

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I think we will see some change in this however when 2.0 comes out because we will have smaller inventory space, so we won't be able to carry as much gear with us as we have been.

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This isn't the case. In 2.0, you have 3 "Gear Sets." Gear that is put into the gear sets does not take up space in your inventory, even when the set isn't active.

Very helpful system, albeit it somewhat encourages having multiple classes on-ready/standby.

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Personally that's what I liked about it. it made things alot more diverse. everyone had a different set of jobs levelled and there weren't really many people the same. and in a way ensured people could play what they wanted. if you had dragoon you weren't told to go warrior or sam or whatever. you could happily stay drg. in xiv though even if you have drg you'd go monk at miser....

I'm told drg's really do well at misers but i've never seen one. which kinda highlights the problem

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Exactly! Great post!

Yes people will not tell you to go warrior they will not invite you instead, sitting in town has aalways been fun

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Yes people will not tell you to go warrior they will not invite you instead, sitting in town has aalways been fun

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This is still the same problem really. People are not willing to take jobs to content that is not the "optimal setup." I understand there are situations where parties need a tank and you can't go cause you're a BLM, but if a party needs a melee DD and you're a monk and get refused because they know dragoons do slightly more damage, it just sucks.

This is bound to happen either way (some people are just like that), and I'm not asking for "true balance", but the problem is the frequency of it happening is high due to the ease of class leveling and class switching.

Op, I get your point and kind of sympathise with you although, there is a reason most endgame shells swap jobs and gear during instanced dungeons (On whm I have 5 sets alone, and usually swap based on what I'm doing. Nuking, healing, buffing, cure bombing, double holying.) It is for maximum efficency because the clock is always ticking for the 5 chests or 17 min if you're doing relics. So unless you can solo heal with a single set, it's pretty much a given.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

This isn't the armoury system's fault. It's the playerbase's fault. Don't go picking at SE for what the community themselves have limited on their own.

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To a degree this is correct but not for a lot of the things that matter. 17 minute dungeon runs have to be nearly perfect and with the optimal setup (which means most of the group switching jobs around) otherwise you simply cannot make it. Things like Garuda and Rivenroad Hard had varying setups that would work but you still had to follow the template that you set for your group. You couldn't really make any changes (not that there are really many options for replacement jobs; 2 tanks, 3 DD, a healer and a support for options doesn't leave much room for imagination when deciding what jobs to bring. When we have 20 jobs is when this might change.) and expect to clear the content.