[dev 1021] [Suggestion] Please consider this SP loss system for Death

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

My idea is perfectly as valid as your idea, except mine would actually create more rational players. Also strategy would have to planned before most battles. Anyway Yoshi-P's idea is the best and that has a gil sink, thus giving you what you want, another sink in this game.

To you guys that want SP/EXP loss, can you think outside the box? There are much better penalties to be thought of than SP/EXP loss. Like having your character run extra slow for an hour, you can't access your inventory for a day, or after dying a certain amount of times during the week, for a month you have to pay a fee to get guideleves, because the Adventurer's Guild finds you incompetent. Come on there are more ideas out there!!!!

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Nah I'll stick to sp loss because like Kaedan's idea, you can buy it back.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

I'm not surprised so many of the "anti-DP" people aren't even reading the first post.

Did you skip over the part where you can buy your SP back with Anima (possibly even Gil)?

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Yeah, thought so. Before you try to contribute to a discussion (and I use that term VERY loosely for some of the posts here), please make sure you read and understand the whole concept.

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Well haven't you thought that some people read you first post and just didn't like your idea, like me. I don't care if I get to buy it back, I DO NOT want to lose SP/EXP at all! Can you read that?

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Well haven't you thought that some people read you first post and just didn't like your idea, like me. I don't care if I get to buy it back, I DO NOT want to lose SP/EXP at all! Can you read that?

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LOL

See, this is why we can't have a rational discussion. You completely ignore a major part of the idea that another part is contingent on. You can't separate them man... they are parts of the same thing.


Ok, so let's assume that you can buy back the SP with Gil, just for arguments sake. So, please enlighten me to how spending Gil to buy back your SP would be any different than spending Gil to repair your equipment. In both cases, you are spending Gil to repair something.

I am tellin ya! just have death instantly add Weakness X3 for 24 Hours! PERFECT DEATH PENALTY!

You can punch yourself in the nuts everytime you die to deter you from dying. Some people don't need to be spanked to know they messed up. Apparently you do. Punch yourself in the privates everytime you die and mayhap you will not die as often?

Me? I strive to win every encounter and not allow my team members to die cuz ya know what? It's just how I *want* to play.

Thanks, have a fantastic day.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Ok, so let's assume that you can buy back the SP with Gil, just for arguments sake. So, please enlighten me to how spending Gil to buy back your SP would be any different than spending Gil to repair your equipment. In both cases, you are spending Gil to repair something.

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You're right the underlying idea is same (spend gil, get something lost back) but I see the repair system being better than yours. Having your equipment repaired is better for those who love crafting and the economy. There are four gil sinks for the repair system (NPC repair, self repair by buying the mats, paying another player to repair, or buying new equipment) compared to your one. Also having your equipment repaired all the time would be annoying, remember people used to complain about that before the Devs changed the rates.

Anyway, since both systems are similar then why do you feel like yours is better? Even in your OP you said money is easily obtainable, so your idea won't be much of a deterrent either. A majority of people don't want lose SP/EXP and are fine with the equipment repair system. So if both are similar then way not go with the idea that everyone is content with?

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Anyway, since both systems are similar then why do you feel like yours is better? Even in your OP you said money is easily obtainable, so your idea won't be much of a deterrent either. A majority of people don't want lose SP/EXP and are fine with the equipment repair system. So if both are similar then way not go with the idea that everyone is content with?

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I would prefer to buy back SP with Anima. And then possibly add a system that allows you to purchase a limited amount of Anima per day back with Gil.

That would give you ultimate choice. When you die, you could chose whether to lose SP or buy it back with Anima. And then, if you wanted to replenish your Anima (there would have to be limits on it), you could spend Gil to get some back.

The key here is choice. With Yoshi's idea, there is no choice. It's just equipment damage, which you spend money on (and is not discouragement against death whatsoever). With my system, you'd have a choice between SP, Anima, and Gil. It gives choices for both Hardcores and Casuals and is perfectly in the middle of the split thinking.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

I would prefer to buy back SP with Anima. And then possibly add a system that allows you to purchase a limited amount of Anima per day back with Gil.

That would give you ultimate choice. When you die, you could chose whether to lose SP or buy it back with Anima. And then, if you wanted to replenish your Anima (there would have to be limits on it), you could spend Gil to get some back.

The key here is choice. With Yoshi's idea, there is no choice. It's just equipment damage, which you spend money on (and is not discouragement against death whatsoever). With my system, you'd have a choice between SP, Anima, and Gil. It gives choices for both Hardcores and Casuals and is perfectly in the middle of the split thinking.

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There's choice in Yoshi's system too, have equipment that's effective or not. Maybe when the equipment penalty comes into effect when you die the durability of all your equipment goes to zero and that having 0% durability would be much worse then it is now. Your Anima system just goes back to the same thing, using gil to get SP back, just with an extra step. In that case how about when you die, you get the equipment penalty, you lose some Anima, and you have to pay an NPC to get some Anima back. That sounds like a better idea and you don't lose any SP/EXP. Also since we're assuming things, who's to say that'll even keep the Anima system in when they put Chocobos in the game, that would make your system and mine nil.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

There's choice in Yoshi's system too, have equipment that's effective or not. Maybe when the equipment penalty comes into effect when you die the durability of all your equipment goes to zero and that having 0% durability would be much worse then it is now. Your Anima system just goes back to the same thing, using gil to get SP back, just with an extra step. In that case how about when you die, you get the equipment penalty, you lose some Anima, and you have to pay an NPC to get some Anima back. That sounds like a better idea and you don't lose any SP/EXP. Also since we're assuming things, who's to say that'll even keep the Anima system in when they put Chocobos in the game, that would make your system and mine nil.

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Let me ask you this: Why are you so afraid of losing SP?

I'm not afraid of losing SP, I just think there could be better DPs than SP loss.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

The key here is choice. With Yoshi's idea, there is no choice.

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Would you really choose not to buy back your SP after death? It really doesn't seem like much of a choice, since I don't think many people would choose to take an SP hit over conserving anima.

Also, where would one go to buy back SP? Would it be an option at the Aetheryte? Or would you have to go back to town? My concern is that, wasted time from party wipes would just be changed to wasted time waiting on the players that go "brb, gonna go buy back my sp" in this system.

With that said, I do think there should be some sort of death penalty that is harsh enough so people play well.

whats wrong with our gaming community these days..., everyone is crying about losing SP. well it is supposed to be a PENALTY, i don't think its much of a penalty if i get a smack on my hand, that wouldn't be much of a deterrent for me to not die and tighten up my game would it? Of course people may bitch and whine, but the truth will you WOULD try not to die as much. The goal would be accomplished with the use of a PENALTY.

FFXI:

"Oh crap, we're going to wipe! Everybody kick it into high gear and use your 2 hour abilities!" (High sense of urgency)

FFXIV:

"Meh.. we'll just walk back. Who cares." (no sense of urgency)


One of the main problem factors are guildleves themselves. The way they are designed causes an inherent lack of urgency because usually you have more than enough time to finish, even if you die a couple of times. We need more content.

Lack of strategic battles are another factor.

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Originally Posted by Mugiwara

whats wrong with our gaming community these days..., everyone is crying about losing SP. well it is supposed to be a PENALTY, i don't think its much of a penalty if i get a smack on my hand, that wouldn't be much of a deterrent for me to not die and tighten up my game would it? Of course people may bitch and whine, but the truth will you WOULD try not to die as much. The goal would be accomplished with the use of a PENALTY.

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No one is saying there shouldn't be a penalty, no one wants a SP penalty.

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Originally Posted by Grit

FFXI:

"Oh crap, we're going to wipe! Everybody kick it into high gear and use your 2 hour abilities!" (High sense of urgency)

FFXIV:

"Meh.. we'll just walk back. Who cares." (no sense of urgency)


One of the main problem factors are guildleves themselves. The way they are designed causes an inherent lack of urgency because usually you have more than enough time to finish, even if you die a couple of times. We need more content.

Lack of strategic battles are another factor.

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I think strategic battles would add a lot more to this game and add a sense of urgency. I would rather them increase the difficulty of battles, than increase the penalties. Heck when they add the raid dungeons, add some kind of penalty for that. Like when you die, you can't do the dungeon again until the next day or next week. If that happened people would be more cautious.

The problem I have with adding a penalty for dying is what do you do for the other classes that don't die?
You know, the crafter and gather, they can go to higher rank recipes and nodes to skill up, and suffer no penalties for failure, so why should combat classes?

Honestly if you're dying repeatedly you're probably not high enough or geared well enough, and are likely killing too slow for the SP to be worthwhile, so it really makes no difference if people are fighting while weakened and dying repeatedly as they are not fighting effectively.

The loss of sp from death or deleveling is not a penalty its a nuisance. Seriously go try an "Old school" game where you lost every thing on death and then come back and look at sp loss and try to be scared or nervous about being ko'ed. Heck i started playing xi after quitting Eve Online, watching ten billion isk's worth of space ship turn into a pretty explosion when you lost a fight was harsh. Just loosing a bit of xp was welcome change.

There were things in xi that made me worry about being ko'ed or having a total party wipe. Loosing claim on a nm or wiping to a forced pop mob and waisting the effort that went into obtaining the pop item when the mob vanished. Loosing a timed fight, mission, or event due to being ko'ed to much and the clock running out because of recovery time. Loosing xp did not phase me in these cases. I was only annoyed that i had to go back out and regrind to get it back.

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Originally Posted by Mugiwara

whats wrong with our gaming community these days..., everyone is crying about losing SP. well it is supposed to be a PENALTY, i don't think its much of a penalty if i get a smack on my hand, that wouldn't be much of a deterrent for me to not die and tighten up my game would it? Of course people may bitch and whine, but the truth will you WOULD try not to die as much. The goal would be accomplished with the use of a PENALTY.

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i don't know about you, but i try not to die at all. yes, there are occasional hickups in a battle in which things go badly, but that is because i try to fight the toughest mob i can at that point in my character. all a sp loss penalty is going to do is cause r30 characters to camp r20 areas just because there would be no chance in dying. it does not encourage not dying it encourages easier fights and people not willing to fight harder mobs. if you need a deterrent not to die then you are not trying to be the best in the game anyways and need a push to do so.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

No one is saying there shouldn't be a penalty, no one wants a SP penalty.

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Ok. Again... why? What is so inherently evil and scary about losing SP compared to something else?

See, this only goes to prove that SP is really the only good discouragement to death. Everyone's willing to accept Equipment damage or gil because they know it won't mean anything, just like now.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

The problem I have with adding a penalty for dying is what do you do for the other classes that don't die?
You know, the crafter and gather, they can go to higher rank recipes and nodes to skill up, and suffer no penalties for failure, so why should combat classes?

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It's a null field. No comparison. When crafters do stupid things, their penalty is losing all the materials for the craft.

So if you're ok with that, you must be ok with losing a piece of gear when you die. Afterall, that would be the most equivocal punishment.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

It's a null field. No comparison. When crafters do stupid things, their penalty is losing all the materials for the craft.

So if you're ok with that, you must be ok with losing a piece of gear when you die. Afterall, that would be the most equivocal punishment.

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HAHA, I find that funny and hope that you aren't being serious as losing an armor piece is like 50 times worse than mats, But my idea on losing SP on death is just that, YES it is going to be an effective PENALTY, however, there needs to be a decided rate at which how much is lost. For example, one leve quest gives you 1000 SP but you die on the second leve quest(sometimes unavoidable if the monsters appear on top of you and gang up on you) SO does this mean you lose a set amount of SP? say 300? 600? or render one complete leve's SP void? I'd like to hear an answer.

I'm not for loosing SP on death, but i do rather loose SP than have to fumble with more repairs under the current system. I'm glad with the durabilty fix of one of the previous patches, i don't want something back that will change it all around again. Im thinking about npc repairs to 100% and less steep costs, player repairs give more durability on item for period of time or maybe they can invent some nice temporary buffs that are added by player repairs.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Ok. Again... why? What is so inherently evil and scary about losing SP compared to something else?

See, this only goes to prove that SP is really the only good discouragement to death. Everyone's willing to accept Equipment damage or gil because they know it won't mean anything, just like now.

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Your whole stupid buy SP back idea is similar to getting your equipment repaired, so by your logic, it won't mean anything because people can just buy it back. With most MMOs these days don't have an EXP loss upon death, so why should XIV? Anyway I don't know why I'm arguing with you, you haven't really given me a reason why SP loss would be better other than the subjective people would play better argument. Also in this thread only two or three people agree with you and Yoshi-P doesn't want an SP penalty, so I'm just wasting my time.

Dear SE,

I beg you, open a server with exp loss.

I wanna really see WHO will choose that server and who don't. If it goes well, you can open another and another and another.
Oh, and please, open a server without exp loss/time sink/equip damage. I'll be there.

Thanks for your attention.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Your whole stupid buy SP back idea is similar to getting your equipment repaired, so by your logic, it won't mean anything because people can just buy it back. With most MMOs these days don't have an EXP loss upon death, so why should XIV? Anyway I don't know why I'm arguing with you, you haven't really given me a reason why SP loss would be better other than the subjective people would play better argument. Also in this thread only two or three people agree with you and Yoshi-P doesn't want an SP penalty, so I'm just wasting my time.

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Yes so just get the eff off this thread and quit posting because you obvioulsy didn't read the whole post

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Woof woof woof

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Be quiet Kaedan's dog.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Your whole stupid buy SP back idea is similar to getting your equipment repaired, so by your logic, it won't mean anything because people can just buy it back. With most MMOs these days don't have an EXP loss upon death, so why should XIV? Anyway I don't know why I'm arguing with you, you haven't really given me a reason why SP loss would be better other than the subjective people would play better argument. Also in this thread only two or three people agree with you and Yoshi-P doesn't want an SP penalty, so I'm just wasting my time.

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Actually, I have. It's in the OP.

The problem here is you are making the claim that we shouldn't have SP loss. But you have failed to give even 1 reason why. How about you start at the beginning (giving reasons for why SP is a bad idea) rather than just saying, "Mommy, I don't want to eat my brocolli!"

By the way, "Other MMOs don't have xp loss" is not an argument since there are LOTS of MMOs that have xp loss.

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Originally Posted by RobotRivers

HAHA, I find that funny and hope that you aren't being serious as losing an armor piece is like 50 times worse than mats, But my idea on losing SP on death is just that, YES it is going to be an effective PENALTY, however, there needs to be a decided rate at which how much is lost. For example, one leve quest gives you 1000 SP but you die on the second leve quest(sometimes unavoidable if the monsters appear on top of you and gang up on you) SO does this mean you lose a set amount of SP? say 300? 600? or render one complete leve's SP void? I'd like to hear an answer.

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The amount of SP lost would be up to SE. I believe FFXI was a base 10% without furnature that reduced it, so that would obviously be too high. If I had to make a ballpark guess, I would say 5% loss per death. And as long as you don't die while weakened (or within a certain time period... that would be up to SE), then you can buy it back with Anima (again, my preferred method is buyback with Anima).

P.S. And no, I was not being serious about losing gear on death. But I was merely illustrating the fact that crafters DO have a penalty for failure, unlike what Akuun was trying to claim.

I'll repeat what I've said before about exp/sp loss on death.

9 out of 10 times many people died in FFXI was not due to their own mistakes, but due to circumstances within parties. Bad pulls, people AFK, poorly timed abilities, etc.

People should not be punished with loss of their hard earned exp/sp because of the actions of others.

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Originally Posted by Chromeo_El_Lobo

I'll repeat what I've said before about exp/sp loss on death.

9 out of 10 times many people died in FFXI was not due to their own mistakes, but due to circumstances within parties. Bad pulls, people AFK, poorly timed abilities, etc.

People should not be punished with loss of their hard earned exp/sp because of the actions of others.

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It doesn't matter who's fault it is. By your reasoning, we shouldn't have any death penalty whatsoever.

There has to be some sort of discouragement to dying (even Yoshi says so)... so instead of just saying, "No! I don't want to lose anything because of someone else!"... how about explaining A) Why having the choice between losing SP and losing Anima is so bad and B) making a different suggestion?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Actually, I have. It's in the OP.

The problem here is you are making the claim that we shouldn't have SP loss. But you have failed to give even 1 reason why. How about you start at the beginning (giving reasons for why SP is a bad idea) rather than just saying, "Mommy, I don't want to eat my brocolli!"

By the way, "Other MMOs don't have xp loss" is not an argument since there are LOTS of MMOs that have xp loss.

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What's in your OP, the only thing I see is that money won't be a deterrent. That's not much of a good reason, especially since the same applies for your system. You haven't given me a good reason why having an SP loss would be better, the only thing you've said is choice, which ALSO in an equipment repair system. Hell, you haven't disproved that your system is vastly different from an equipment repair system. It's your job to convince me why an SP loss system would be better, because the system I want is going to be in place.

Anyway, the reason I don't want to lose SP is because it's nothing but a timesink, nothing is worse than spending an hour, two hours, or three hours getting a bunch of EXP and seeing half of it go away because of one death. All that wasted time, I could be getting my subjob quest done, but now I have to level up again. Now you're probably gonna say, "It's a penalty, it's supposed to be bad!!", but if it's so supposed to be that way, why are you even suggesting an option to buy it back? I still think there's other ways to penalize players than taking away SP.

I said MMOs these days, besides if there's LOTS of MMOs with EXP loss then you should probably be playing those instead. Anyway this is last post in this topic, I don't care what else you write, so you don't even have to respond to this message.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Anyway, the reason I don't want to lose SP is because it's nothing but a timesink, nothing is worse than spending an hour, two hours, or three hours getting a bunch of EXP and seeing half of it go away because of one death. All that wasted time, I could be getting my subjob quest done, but now I have to level up again. Now you're probably gonna say, "It's a penalty, it's supposed to be bad!!", but if it's so supposed to be that way, why are you even suggesting an option to buy it back? I still think there's other ways to penalize players than taking away SP.

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Gear damage is a timesink. Weakness is a timesink... any form of penalty is a timesink. So you have no point. My point is that Gil is so easy to get, that it's not a significant enough discouragement. If you would bother reading, I said I prefer Anima as the buyback currency, but I put Gil in there as an option for SE to consider as well.

I finally see your problem. You seem to think that you'll lose hours of SP from a single death. That's RIDICULOUS. I suggested maybe 5% of the SP needed to level. SP penalties don't have to be as harsh as they were in FFXI.

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I said MMOs these days, besides if there's LOTS of MMOs with EXP loss then you should probably be playing those instead. Anyway this is last post in this topic, I don't care what else you write, so you don't even have to respond to this message.

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So very mature of you. At least we won't need to listen to you repeating "I don't want SP loss" over and over without any real reasoning behind it. I especially loved the "go back to <insert MMO> retort". *rolleyes*

Aion was released "these days". It has an xp penalty.

Lol apparently I'm your b*tch Kaedan for siding with you. It's funny how he thinks he's gold because he doesn't agree with you.
Plus you blunty stated that after the second or third death in a row, you couldn't buy it back... but apparently he can't read neither...

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Gear damage is a timesink. Weakness is a timesink... any form of penalty is a timesink. So you have no point. My point is that Gil is so easy to get, that it's not a significant enough discouragement. If you would bother reading, I said I prefer Anima as the buyback currency, but I put Gil in there as an option for SE to consider as well.

I finally see your problem. You seem to think that you'll lose hours of SP from a single death. That's RIDICULOUS. I suggested maybe 5% of the SP needed to level. SP penalties don't have to be as harsh as they were in FFXI.




So very mature of you. At least we won't need to listen to you repeating "I don't want SP loss" over and over without any real reasoning behind it. I especially loved the "go back to <insert MMO> retort". *rolleyes*

Aion was released "these days". It has an xp penalty.

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Here you go, you lured me back in. True, those things are timesinks, in that case why have a SP penalty? A penalty does NOT have to a timesink, I suggested awhile back if you died a over certain amount of times over a week, you have to buy your guildleves for awhile, that's a penalty and not a timesink. Using Anima is the same thing as using Gil, there's no difference! If Gil is easy to get then people would have no problem buying Anima. I know you said you would get back a limited amount of Anima, but if you're going to do that, why not limit the amount of Gil instead? If they did that, you don't have a point either.

You're not very mature yourself, especially with your "rolleyes" remark. You should be happy that I'm posting, no one else seems to care about your topic or idea.

I wasn't expecting you to stay gone anyway. Otherwise I wouldn't have replied.

SP is tried and tested and works. And it has evolved. It used to be just straight SP loss, but as more casuals joined the scene, they relaxed the penalty a bit and started allowing for buyback.

The problem with your idea of forcing you to buy Guildleves if you die too many times in a week is A) the penalty doesn't kick in for a long time (no true reason to worry about it) and B) again, it's just gil.

And there is a GIANT difference between Anima and Gil. Anima is limited and only refreshes at a fixed rate. Gil is not. You couldn't just limit the amount of Gil since the economy is already flooded with too much (and if they did, as soon as they started, new players would be at a HUGE disadvantage).

I'm not the one who said "go back and play a different game" just because I disagreed with what we should have for a death penalty.

So you still have yet to explain why it's so horrible to lose SP. Even better, why it's so horrible to have the choice of losing SP or Anima. There are a plethora of different ways we could handle death penalty, and no matter what you end up doing it's going to be a timesink somewhere down the line. Even if its in the form of positive reinforcement.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

The amount of SP lost would be up to SE. I believe FFXI was a base 10% without furnature that reduced it, so that would obviously be too high. If I had to make a ballpark guess, I would say 5% loss per death. And as long as you don't die while weakened (or within a certain time period... that would be up to SE), then you can buy it back with Anima (again, my preferred method is buyback with Anima).

P.S. And no, I was not being serious about losing gear on death. But I was merely illustrating the fact that crafters DO have a penalty for failure, unlike what Akuun was trying to claim.

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Thank You Kaedan for that EXCELLENT answer.I'm not a big fan of sp/xp lost upon death, HOWEVER, if thats the rate at which sp/xp is lost im actually all for it. Now that I've agreed this specific circumstance SOMEONE will most likely say that its not enough of a deterrent so it should be upped to 15~25% loss on death, and you know what... don't even go there.

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Originally Posted by RobotRivers

Thank You Kaedan for that EXCELLENT answer.I'm not a big fan of sp/xp lost upon death, HOWEVER, if thats the rate at which sp/xp is lost im actually all for it. Now that I've agreed this specific circumstance SOMEONE will most likely say that its not enough of a deterrent so it should be upped to 15~25% loss on death, and you know what... don't even go there.

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Thank you. I don't think you will get a lot of people wanting more than a 5% loss. I'm willing to bet that even the "super hardcores" who claim they want a severe penalty didn't like FFXI's high amount.

Instead of SP/EXP lose why not Freeze SP/EXP gain as an added effect of weakness? 2 minutes of not being able to gain SP/EXP doesn't seem harsh

Losing SP/EXP is pretty harsh for a penalty as it takes long enough to reach 50 as it is

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Originally Posted by ClawFury

Instead of SP/EXP lose why not Freeze SP/EXP gain as an added effect of weakness? 2 minutes of not being able to gain SP/EXP doesn't seem harsh

Losing SP/EXP is pretty harsh for a penalty as it takes long enough to reach 50 as it is

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That, actually, is a rather good idea.

It involves losing SP, but disguises it in such a way as to change the psychology behind it. Bravo, I approve.

I still like my idea, but I would be willing to accept yours as well.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

1. It wouldn't stop people from throwing weakened bodies at NMs. You don't fight NMs for Experience Points.

2. It wouldn't stop people from acting carelessly.. because they would just wait for weakened to wear off before fighting (like they already do most of the time..)

If the weakened state (specifically the condition of not being able to receive SP) was 5+ minutes long, AND we had more non-guildleve content, this might work. But only 2 minutes with everybody doing guildleves.. definitely not.